Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tina Bar Money Find  (Read 514478 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5655 on: September 27, 2020, 12:31:00 PM »
Nothing suggests the size of the bag, period. only the contents. smokejumpers don't jump from 10,000 at 200 mph.

The bag threw a wrench into things and he tried to duplicate the knapsack. they state he was trying to put the money in the container or chute. nothing is mentioned about packets, bundles and nothing about portions of the bills. they only state seeing the money once. I see a lot of bias...

'He decided to leave it in the canvas bag"  about as good as statements from radar operators?

As Dudeman mentions..several bundles could of easily been placed on his person if needed. I have to check but didn't Tina drag the money down the isle?

Did you try packing the money side ways? nobody knows how it was packed or the size of the bag unless you are psychic. it's possible the bag size but would expect it to be rejected since two problems exist vs just the wrong bag. if he took the briefcase, why not put money in that?

Cooper would have trouble dealing with the ripcord and again the same could of been done with the pink chute.

I don't believe any part of the canopy was missing since Cossey states in one report of cutting it in half and sewing it together. that wouldn't really make it soft, it would be flat. I don't think it's a matter of unused space vs easy packing.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2020, 12:33:03 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline EU

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5656 on: September 27, 2020, 01:04:26 PM »
A pic noting the "Tina Bar" sign location and gate is below.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5657 on: September 27, 2020, 01:23:05 PM »
Too far away to use in my project..
 

Offline EU

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5658 on: September 27, 2020, 01:38:25 PM »
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Nothing suggests the size of the bag, period. only the contents. smokejumpers don't jump from 10,000 at 200 mph.

The bag threw a wrench into things and he tried to duplicate the knapsack. they state he was trying to put the money in the container or chute. nothing is mentioned about packets, bundles and nothing about portions of the bills. they only state seeing the money once. I see a lot of bias...

'He decided to leave it in the canvas bag"  about as good as statements from radar operators?

As Dudeman mentions..several bundles could of easily been placed on his person if needed. I have to check but didn't Tina drag the money down the isle?

Did you try packing the money side ways? nobody knows how it was packed or the size of the bag unless you are psychic. it's possible the bag size but would expect it to be rejected since two problems exist vs just the wrong bag. if he took the briefcase, why not put money in that?

Cooper would have trouble dealing with the ripcord and again the same could of been done with the pink chute.

I don't believe any part of the canopy was missing since Cossey states in one report of cutting it in half and sewing it together. that wouldn't really make it soft, it would be flat. I don't think it's a matter of unused space vs easy packing.

We have to work with what we have to work with and nothing more. We have the witness testimony, Cooper's comment, the fact that the dummy reserve is gone, and three packets discovered by themselves on Tena Bar. Also, remember that we have Tina describing the bank bag as being tied at the neck by the time she brought the fourth parachute onboard. Additionally, we have her comments about see money as they were about ready to depart SeaTac.

Again, given what we have to work with all we can do is try to create a plausible scenario. If the standard is that we can only factor in 100% indisputable fact we will never get anywhere. Conjecture is required in this case.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5659 on: September 27, 2020, 01:56:12 PM »
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The length of the lines would not normally be noted on the packing card. Make, model, and serial number. Any size marking ("26' Navy Conical", e.g.) would refer to the size of the canopy.
---
If he opened the other reserve, re-closing it with the ripcord might be kind of difficult, depending on how much he was putting inside it. Those closing loops aren't very long. Too much bulk in the container, it's a bitch to close. Too little bulk and there might not be enough tension to keep it closed, the ripcord might just fall out. Might be easier to tie it shut. Robert99, did any of those early reserves use the metal cones instead of closing loops? If so, might be even more difficult to close using the ripcord.
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He was seen tying the top of the money bag. He was also seen 'wrapping money in white material'. Not sure how that was worded in the documents, but is it possible that he wasn't satisfied with the way the bag was tied and was wrapping the entire money bag in the material for better security? Tying both the bag and the reserve on might be kind of cumbersome. Is it possible he tied the bag inside the reserve container? The container would not have to close all the way if it was tied with lines. Looking at those pictures Eric posted, that might work girth-wise, length-wise looks more iffy. Perhaps he stuffed some money packets in his pockets or down his pants? Between his belt and the leg straps, that might be secure.

My limited sky diving experience was in the early to mid-1960s.  All of the equipment that I and my fellow jumpers on the east coast had access to at that time was military surplus backpacks with 5-TU modified canopies.  The reserves were military surplus 24 footers with the pilot chutes removed and a placard sewn onto the reserve container stating that the pilot chute had been removed.

The reserve containers were closed with two metal cones sewn into the container flap on the bottom and two metal receptacles on the top flap and one each on the side flaps.  These cones and receptacles were similar to those used on the backpacks.  When packed, these reserves were as hard as a rock.  There was no room for putting anything more into those packed containers.

I think the missing shroud lines from the cut up reserve were sufficient to wrap around the money bag maybe up to 10 times and securely tie it to the harness.  If Cooper tied the money bag to the harness by a lanyard ("earth and moon" situation), then it is practically a given that he was a no-pull.

Those equipment bags that you see swinging below military static line jumpers and military free fall jumpers started the jump being securely attached to the jumper.  I think most of the heavy equipment used by the smoke jumpers came down on different parachutes.   
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5660 on: September 27, 2020, 01:59:38 PM »
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The document surrounding the statement of "white material" is full of error's...they seem to get things backwards. the open reserve had a pinkish canopy. this document states it was white and the back pack having the pink canopy which is also incorrect.

It is most unlikely that the missing reserve had a pilot chute in the first place.  And even if it did, there was a large coil spring in that pilot chute that would prevent it being a realistic place to put any money.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5661 on: September 27, 2020, 03:22:25 PM »
Jumpers have claimed no pilot chutes in reserves..

I have a military PDF showing how they pack gear to a soldier. you can hardly see them one everything is on. then you have to remember they were static jumps so no spins will occur or fear of a no pull..
« Last Edit: September 27, 2020, 04:03:03 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5662 on: September 27, 2020, 03:30:46 PM »
What would happen to the briefcase. I'm sure if he used the handle to secure the case it would of possibly ripped off..or did he toss it out in pieces?
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5663 on: September 27, 2020, 04:20:08 PM »
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Jumpers have claimed no pilot chutes in reserves..

I have a military PDF showing how they pack gear to a soldier. you can hardly see them one everything is on. then you have to remember they were static jumps so no spins will occur or fear of a no pull..

I want to know WHY Cooper went straight to the complex process of adaptation vs just putting Tina on the intercom and saying: GET ME THE GD KNAPSACK NOW! ?

There is something in this guy's background that decides he can or will replace the functionality of a knapsack with something he can make. All of that goes straight to Cooper's thinking process and his background - his priorities. Maybe he decided to hijack this plane using the same kind of logic?   

Not to mention the fact from a tactical point of view, the instant he puts on a chute (early) in the confined space of that airplane he becomes more vulnerable, physically (tactically). This is a guy making some bold choices ... only to have the FBI stall things and keep the plane on the ground for hours! Something is compelling or managing Cooper's decisions, and its not exactly rational from a tactical defensive point of view! What's he going to do if they rush him and his bomb is not real?

The whole situation is loaded for trouble - what's he doing putting on a chute and screwing around trying to make ANY container for the money!? The knapsack was supposed to be the container! Ooooops. Scratch that part of the plan! From a tactical point of view Cooper has made himself a vulnerable target ... if people outside the plane are aware of what's going on inside that plane.  ;) 
« Last Edit: September 27, 2020, 04:40:33 PM by georger »
 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5664 on: September 27, 2020, 04:42:46 PM »
Quote
I want to know WHY Cooper went straight to the complex process of adaptation vs just putting Tina on the intercom and saying: GET ME THE GD KNAPSACK NOW! ?

Hard to say. the time on the ground is dangerous for him. he probably had it all figured out and the bag screwed things up. why he put the chute on so early can be speculated several ways..he wanted to land and get everything on the plane and goooo...
« Last Edit: September 27, 2020, 05:42:37 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5665 on: September 27, 2020, 08:57:46 PM »
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What would happen to the briefcase. I'm sure if he used the handle to secure the case it would of possibly ripped off..or did he toss it out in pieces?

Cooper probably tossed the briefcase and disconnected whatever was in it and tossed them over the space of a few minutes.  The handle would not be able to survive a 5 to 10 g opening shock.
 

Offline EU

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5666 on: September 28, 2020, 10:34:16 AM »
My opinion is that he jumped with the attache' case and that he took it with him once he landed. It was cheap, but new. He had to be concerned about someone piecing together where the item was purchased and by whom...especially if it was purchased immediately before the skyjacking locally.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5667 on: September 28, 2020, 02:14:13 PM »
 :offtopicman:

This is the Tina Bar Money thread !

 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5668 on: September 29, 2020, 10:54:05 AM »
To those suggesting he took the briefcase, etc with him on the jump and SURVIVED are ignoring the physics of skydiving.

Any asymmetry in a jump will put you into a spin. If you aren't symmetrical to the air flow in a jump, you will start turning, flipping, and spinning. If Cooper is jumping with his main chute, a jerry-rigged decoy chute packed with cash, the knapsack, AND the briefcase, then he is putting himself in serious risk of an uncontrolled freefall leading to death.

I personally believe Cooper died in the jump, so him going into an irreversible spin before lawndarting to Earth is fine with me, but for those who believe he survived, he would have needed to keep his person as symmetrical as possible. 
 

Offline EU

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5669 on: September 29, 2020, 12:12:13 PM »
There are plenty examples of people jumping with loads of equipment and not spinning out of control...smokejumpers, military personnel, even Sheridan Peterson brags about jumping with a 50 lbs. bag of flour back in the 60's.

One way that my thoughts have changed over the years relates to when DBC pulled the ripcord. I tend to agree with 377 now in that I think it is likely that DBC pulled the ripcord either from the airstairs or immediately after jumping, in part because of the load he was carrying. This means he had plenty of time to surveillance the area and probably drifted a couple of miles to the northeast.

The biggest problems I have with the no-pull theory are: First, why was nothing of his body, the attache' case, bulk of the cash or parachutes ever found? Second, how did three packets of twenties end up buried by each other on Tena Bar?
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK