Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tina Bar Money Find  (Read 505092 times)

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4920 on: August 06, 2020, 04:52:23 AM »
My Dear Chaucer. A "perpetual debris pile" at T-Bar? Please explain. I've been there a few times and I've not seen it. Yes, a bunch of junk and a few branches at a high-water mark here and there, but nothing extensive.

BTW: I used to run a commercial beachcleaning operation in NY for eight years. I'm kinda knowledgeable about debris at the water's edge.
 
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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4921 on: August 06, 2020, 04:59:48 AM »
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There is no cherry picking involved.  I simply stated what McPheters wrote in his four pages that described his involvement with the Cooper matter and Tina Bar.  That is all there is to his story.  He did what he was supposed to do that day.  Unlike yourself, McPheters didn't try to make a career out of the hijacking.


McPheter's writings about the shards comports with what he told me. He said about a dozen pieces in total when we spoke in 2010.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4922 on: August 06, 2020, 02:43:39 PM »
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Tom,

Do you think it is plausible for the money, if tightly packed into the bag, would be protected from acquiring winter diatoms while traveling from area of the I-5 bridge to Tena Bar? And would interaction with the sand “clean” any remaining winter diatoms?

Chaucer, Let me jump in here also.  It is approximately 10 statute miles by river from the I-5 bridge to Tina Bar.  Whether floating or rolling on the river bottom, the money bag would have ended up on the west side of the Columbia River when it got to the Tina Bar area.

If floating, it would have continued on downstream past Tina Bar.  If on the bottom, it would be in the shipping channel by the time it got to the Tina Bar area and would continued on downstream as well, unless it snagged on something on the bottom.  The money would have to stay on the bottom until the dredging in 1974 for this story to work and it obviously didn't.
So, literally NO flotsam ends up on the east side of the Columbia at that part of the river, huh? Well, the perpetual debris pile on Tena Bar might disputable that claim.

Also, it seems that you are as defensive when people georget pushes back on your ideas as EU when I push back on his. I know I’m new here , but perhaps you guys should have both a thicker skin and a more open mind.

Who am I kidding? You both have too much hubris for that.

As Bruce Smith also asks above, what "perpetual debris pile on Tena Bar" are you talking about?  Both Bruce and I have been to Tina/Tena Bar several times and are puzzled by your remarks.

Tina Bar is basically just sand.  There used to be a large number of trees there.  There are still quite a few trees there but each high water event further erodes the shoreline and eventually the trees fall over and end up elsewhere.

As I have pointed out a number of times before, the river water coming through the channel between Caterpillar Island and the east bank of the Columbia forms a boundary layer between the shore of Tina Bar and the main stream of the Columbia River.  This reduces the probability of debris in the main channel washing up at Tina Bar although it does happen under some severe conditions.  The cans and other such debris that you may see at Tina Bar is usually left by the fishermen there.

 
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4923 on: August 06, 2020, 02:54:10 PM »
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Tom,

Do you think it is plausible for the money, if tightly packed into the bag, would be protected from acquiring winter diatoms while traveling from area of the I-5 bridge to Tena Bar? And would interaction with the sand “clean” any remaining winter diatoms?

Chaucer, Let me jump in here also.  It is approximately 10 statute miles by river from the I-5 bridge to Tina Bar.  Whether floating or rolling on the river bottom, the money bag would have ended up on the west side of the Columbia River when it got to the Tina Bar area.

If floating, it would have continued on downstream past Tina Bar.  If on the bottom, it would be in the shipping channel by the time it got to the Tina Bar area and would continued on downstream as well, unless it snagged on something on the bottom.  The money would have to stay on the bottom until the dredging in 1974 for this story to work and it obviously didn't.
So, literally NO flotsam ends up on the east side of the Columbia at that part of the river, huh? Well, the perpetual debris pile on Tena Bar might disputable that claim.

Also, it seems that you are as defensive when people georget pushes back on your ideas as EU when I push back on his. I know I’m new here , but perhaps you guys should have both a thicker skin and a more open mind.

Who am I kidding? You both have too much hubris for that.

As Bruce Smith also asks above, what "perpetual debris pile on Tena Bar" are you talking about?  Both Bruce and I have been to Tina/Tena Bar several times and are puzzled by your remarks.

Tina Bar is basically just sand.  There used to be a large number of trees there.  There are still quite a few trees there but each high water event further erodes the shoreline and eventually the trees fall over and end up elsewhere.

As I have pointed out a number of times before, the river water coming through the channel between Caterpillar Island and the east bank of the Columbia forms a boundary layer between the shore of Tina Bar and the main stream of the Columbia River.  This reduces the probability of debris in the main channel washing up at Tina Bar although it does happen under some severe conditions.  The cans and other such debris that you may see at Tina Bar is usually left by the fishermen there.

 

As I have pointed out a number of times before, the river water coming through the channel between Caterpillar Island and the east bank of the Columbia forms a boundary layer between the shore of Tina Bar and the main stream of the Columbia River.

I would rather hear that from a professional Hydrologist. Nothing about this in the Palmer report or any other report from 1980 or Kaye or anywhere else but now today. But, if your claim is true that might offer an impediment to anything washing up on Tina Bar except in high water conditions - as you say 'This reduces the probability of debris in the main channel washing up at Tina Bar although it does happen under some severe conditions.

A special exemption to your rule, if true, would be dredging that deposits spoils directly on the beach, irrespective of what current is doing or not doing. 
« Last Edit: August 06, 2020, 03:01:20 PM by georger »
 

Offline andrade1812

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4924 on: August 06, 2020, 08:36:10 PM »
Perhaps not the Washougal, but doesn't the fact the money was deposited into the sand during the spring floods bring some kind of washdown theory back into play?
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4925 on: August 06, 2020, 09:01:12 PM »
Ya mean, Marty, like the money bag was hung-up in a tree somewhere and then the spring rains/floods not only washed it out of the tree branches but into the Columbia via a creek or storm sewer and down to T-Bar, picking up LOTS of Asterionella and Fragilaria along the way?
 

Offline andrade1812

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4926 on: August 06, 2020, 09:06:44 PM »
Or like any of the rest of the garbage found in the sand during the dig. The FBI tried to find a source for at least two pieces of "unique" garbage found in the same layer as the money, apparently to no conclusion. If the money had been cached near the Columbia or tributary, it could have been swept along by the massive spring floods in '72 or later. My major complaint with TK's work on the Washougal was he didn't do his tests during a spring flood, which I believe would have been strong enough to move the money given the scenario I suggest.

If anything, R99's theory is a "washdown" theory as well, just under a much shorter distance.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4927 on: August 06, 2020, 09:11:17 PM »
Tom told me different diatoms would be present from any contributary outside the Columbia..
 
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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4928 on: August 06, 2020, 09:17:29 PM »
Smile. Yes, R99's scenario is in fact, a "wash-down" theory! Maybe only 20 feet, but hey... it could also be 200 feet... or even 2,000....
 
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Offline andrade1812

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4929 on: August 06, 2020, 09:17:44 PM »
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Tom told me different diatoms would be present from any contributary outside the Columbia..

That's interesting, the money is in the Columbia, it has about fifteen minutes before it completely sinks... It is deposited during the spring floods ten feet above sea level on Tina Bar... The dredge happened in August, so it's out... I think it's more likely we'll find out who DB Cooper is than get a complete understanding of how the money got onto the shore.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4930 on: August 06, 2020, 09:19:11 PM »
Wouldn't it be a real kick if even DB himself couldn't explain it.
 
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Offline andrade1812

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4931 on: August 06, 2020, 09:23:49 PM »
Obviously I have my own theories, but TK's paper seems to point directly to some version of R99's theory of a western flight and Cooper jumping out of the plane somewhere south of Tina Bar.
 
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4932 on: August 06, 2020, 10:19:19 PM »
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Obviously I have my own theories, but TK's paper seems to point directly to some version of R99's theory of a western flight and Cooper jumping out of the plane somewhere south of Tina Bar.

It is that possibility that drives some posters here bonkers. ;D
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4933 on: August 06, 2020, 11:42:37 PM »
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Or like any of the rest of the garbage found in the sand during the dig. The FBI tried to find a source for at least two pieces of "unique" garbage found in the same layer as the money, apparently to no conclusion. If the money had been cached near the Columbia or tributary, it could have been swept along by the massive spring floods in '72 or later. My major complaint with TK's work on the Washougal was he didn't do his tests during a spring flood, which I believe would have been strong enough to move the money given the scenario I suggest.

If anything, R99's theory is a "washdown" theory as well, just under a much shorter distance.

Wash-in vs wash-down. ?  Keep in mind, none of Tom's diatoms have been dated to a specific year. Only seasons within some year and maybe years. And, the underlying requirement is "exposure" , whenever that exposure or exposures happened. The money could have been buried below the diatom zone at the Ingram find site until it was finally exposed close enough to the surface to be 'exposed' to diatoms. As Tom says, diatoms only inhabit a shallow zone. Palmer tosses several years around in the Palmer report. Palmer could not even set a fixed date as to when the money arrived where found!

Do any of you know how to date a diatom to a specific year? If I send you a diatom kit from Fischer Sci can you tell me the year when every diatom on every slide was born? Nobody can except maybe for the girl that collected them! Nobody including Tom was present examining Cooper bills yearly to set a date at which year 77's bill was exposed to those diatoms. This is 2020. 77's bill dates from February 1980. Are the diatoms Tom has seen now 40, 41, 42, 43 .... years old irrespective of when those diatoms actually landed on that bill ?  Does Tom have a test to establish the year those diatoms wormed their way onto 77's bill?
« Last Edit: August 06, 2020, 11:52:40 PM by georger »
 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4934 on: August 08, 2020, 09:45:53 PM »
Tom's video surrounding diatoms..

..