Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tina Bar Money Find  (Read 493766 times)

Offline EU

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4785 on: May 17, 2020, 04:32:44 PM »
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The point is that something apparently restrained one end the bills so that over time water action could break off the remainder of the bills and this means the packets were exposed to significant water and maybe air action at some point.


If I understand you correctly I disagree.

I do not believe anything restrained the bills--or packets. Rather, the three separate packets were placed in the hole--along with the rest of the ransom. Two of the three packets ended up aligned in the manner depicted in Tom Kaye's "torque" image after the ransom was removed--thereby meaning the three packets discovered by Brian Ingram were left in the hole accidentally.

Then, the three packets were essentially locked in position underground for eight years, slowly rotting from the outside edges inward, until erosion at Tena Bar and Brian Ingram unearthed the three packets.
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Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4786 on: May 17, 2020, 04:34:35 PM »
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Let me explain the money as I see it:

First, the condition of the bills: The bills are  not rounded because of river rock action. If this was the case then the fronts and backs of the stacks would have also been "rounded" and the rubber bands would have been completely destroyed and missing. However, the rubber bands were still in place when the money was found. Also, I have analyzed 377's bill extensively and determined that what is left of the bill accounts for only about 25% of the original bill. Importantly, the missing outer edges (75%) is uniform around the entirety of the bill. In fact, this is precisely what I would expect with the bills being buried and organisms eating away at the bill from all four edges. This "rot" should theoretically occur at a uniform pace.

Second, the torque: If you look at Tom's "torque" image on his site you'll notice something peculiar...in fact, it does not appear that a single stack of bills was torqued. Rather, it appears that you have two separate stacks of bills, one on top of the other, however slightly askew relative to each other. Indeed, I think we're looking at two separate stacks of bills versus one stack that is "torqued."

The point is that something apparently restrained one end the bills so that over time water action could break off the remainder of the bills and this means the packets were exposed to significant water and maybe air action at some point.

However, this by itself also rules out the possibility of these packets, along with the fragments, coming down the main channel of the Columbia River and indicates that everything arrived at the same time.  If Cooper, or the money bag, had ended up in the Columbia River east of the I-5 bridge, he would have been on the Oregon side of the river after it made the turn north regardless of whether he was on the bottom of the river or on the surface.

The Columbia River water coming through the channel on the east side of Caterpillar Island is going to be slower than the water in the river's main channel. This channel water forms a boundary between the main river water and the sand at Tina Bar once it is past Caterpillar Island.  In addition, the main river channel creates vortices in the river that are clockwise as view from above on the Tina Bar side.  That is, these vortices would slow the CI channel water a bit also.

All of the above supports the ideas that the money arrived at Tina Bar while still in a damaged bag during a flood event and/or that it was planted there by human means.

All speculation. 

 
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4787 on: May 17, 2020, 04:41:04 PM »
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The point is that something apparently restrained one end the bills so that over time water action could break off the remainder of the bills and this means the packets were exposed to significant water and maybe air action at some point.


If I understand you correctly I disagree.

I do not believe anything restrained the bills--or packets. Rather, the three separate packets were placed in the hole--along with the rest of the ransom. Two of the three packets ended up aligned in the manner depicted in Tom Kaye's "torque" image after the ransom was removed--thereby meaning the three packets discovered by Brian Ingram were left in the hole accidentally.

Then, the three packets were essentially locked in position underground for eight years, slowly rotting from the outside edges inward, until erosion at Tena Bar and Brian Ingram unearthed the three packets.

Fact is we dont know. Its all speculation. Lab work that might have been was not done. And dont take this personally but I dont think anyone here is even in a position to know what 'lab work' options were available or still are. None of you guys are forensic lab people! But you are full of ideas and opposing arguments. Its like debating teams arguing If God Exists!  Good luck.  ;D   

Its like continuing episodes of All In The Family ! Has nothing to do with the Cooper case of the Tina Bar Money!
« Last Edit: May 17, 2020, 04:49:54 PM by georger »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4788 on: May 17, 2020, 04:42:13 PM »
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The point is that something apparently restrained one end the bills so that over time water action could break off the remainder of the bills and this means the packets were exposed to significant water and maybe air action at some point.


If I understand you correctly I disagree.

I do not believe anything restrained the bills--or packets. Rather, the three separate packets were placed in the hole--along with the rest of the ransom. Two of the three packets ended up aligned in the manner depicted in Tom Kaye's "torque" image after the ransom was removed--thereby meaning the three packets discovered by Brian Ingram were left in the hole accidentally.

Then, the three packets were essentially locked in position underground for eight years, slowly rotting from the outside edges inward, until erosion at Tena Bar and Brian Ingram unearthed the three packets.

I think you understand me correctly.  While we agree on the flight path being west of Portland, as opposed to the FBI's flight path, we disagree on how the money got to Tina Bar and what happened to Cooper after he stepped off those stairs at 10,000 feet.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2020, 04:44:36 PM by Robert99 »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4789 on: May 17, 2020, 04:47:25 PM »
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Let me explain the money as I see it:

First, the condition of the bills: The bills are  not rounded because of river rock action. If this was the case then the fronts and backs of the stacks would have also been "rounded" and the rubber bands would have been completely destroyed and missing. However, the rubber bands were still in place when the money was found. Also, I have analyzed 377's bill extensively and determined that what is left of the bill accounts for only about 25% of the original bill. Importantly, the missing outer edges (75%) is uniform around the entirety of the bill. In fact, this is precisely what I would expect with the bills being buried and organisms eating away at the bill from all four edges. This "rot" should theoretically occur at a uniform pace.

Second, the torque: If you look at Tom's "torque" image on his site you'll notice something peculiar...in fact, it does not appear that a single stack of bills was torqued. Rather, it appears that you have two separate stacks of bills, one on top of the other, however slightly askew relative to each other. Indeed, I think we're looking at two separate stacks of bills versus one stack that is "torqued."

The point is that something apparently restrained one end the bills so that over time water action could break off the remainder of the bills and this means the packets were exposed to significant water and maybe air action at some point.

However, this by itself also rules out the possibility of these packets, along with the fragments, coming down the main channel of the Columbia River and indicates that everything arrived at the same time.  If Cooper, or the money bag, had ended up in the Columbia River east of the I-5 bridge, he would have been on the Oregon side of the river after it made the turn north regardless of whether he was on the bottom of the river or on the surface.

The Columbia River water coming through the channel on the east side of Caterpillar Island is going to be slower than the water in the river's main channel. This channel water forms a boundary between the main river water and the sand at Tina Bar once it is past Caterpillar Island.  In addition, the main river channel creates vortices in the river that are clockwise as view from above on the Tina Bar side.  That is, these vortices would slow the CI channel water a bit also.

All of the above supports the ideas that the money arrived at Tina Bar while still in a damaged bag during a flood event and/or that it was planted there by human means.

All speculation. 

 

Why don't you get off your posterior and visit Tina Bar sometime.  Facts trump your speculation.  By the way, FJ has now forbidden your copying his posts to this site without his permission.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4790 on: May 17, 2020, 04:52:05 PM »
Funny. Its personal with you.  FJ and you have a lot in common, imho.  You both sputter nonsense from a personal agenda. It's sad. Highly disruptive but you rely on and relish that!  AGENDA! Its remarkable you bring FJ into this! What FJ has said about you and your theories is on the record! Give us a break R99!   

G isnt even a single person but a committee!  ;D

It takes a VILLAGE to do science, in case you and FJ don't know! Not single heroes/winners and headline writers. Science is a cooperative enterprise.

The ONLY reason I ever brought anything of FLYJACK'S or anyone else's posts here was to generate COMMUNITY discussion. FJ got himself booted out of this forum.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2020, 05:25:05 PM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4791 on: May 17, 2020, 05:44:24 PM »
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Let me explain the money as I see it:

First, the condition of the bills: The bills are  not rounded because of river rock action. If this was the case then the fronts and backs of the stacks would have also been "rounded" and the rubber bands would have been completely destroyed and missing. However, the rubber bands were still in place when the money was found. Also, I have analyzed 377's bill extensively and determined that what is left of the bill accounts for only about 25% of the original bill. Importantly, the missing outer edges (75%) is uniform around the entirety of the bill. In fact, this is precisely what I would expect with the bills being buried and organisms eating away at the bill from all four edges. This "rot" should theoretically occur at a uniform pace.

Second, the torque: If you look at Tom's "torque" image on his site you'll notice something peculiar...in fact, it does not appear that a single stack of bills was torqued. Rather, it appears that you have two separate stacks of bills, one on top of the other, however slightly askew relative to each other. Indeed, I think we're looking at two separate stacks of bills versus one stack that is "torqued."

The point is that something apparently restrained one end the bills so that over time water action could break off the remainder of the bills and this means the packets were exposed to significant water and maybe air action at some point.

However, this by itself also rules out the possibility of these packets, along with the fragments, coming down the main channel of the Columbia River and indicates that everything arrived at the same time.  If Cooper, or the money bag, had ended up in the Columbia River east of the I-5 bridge, he would have been on the Oregon side of the river after it made the turn north regardless of whether he was on the bottom of the river or on the surface.

The Columbia River water coming through the channel on the east side of Caterpillar Island is going to be slower than the water in the river's main channel. This channel water forms a boundary between the main river water and the sand at Tina Bar once it is past Caterpillar Island.  In addition, the main river channel creates vortices in the river that are clockwise as view from above on the Tina Bar side.  That is, these vortices would slow the CI channel water a bit also.

All of the above supports the ideas that the money arrived at Tina Bar while still in a damaged bag during a flood event and/or that it was planted there by human means.

Robert,

I don't think this is apparent, as you said, but I am listening. 

I find issues with the bag surviving all the way up until Tena Bar, but the rubber bands staying put in the water, when most of the material holding them taught was being chipped away by flow. The bands would have to have stayed elastic, contracting as the money was eaten away by river water, or the packets would wiggle out of their grasp. That limits the amount of time they could have been so affected. It also means that whatever held the bundle in place would likely have to have turned it with rotisserie-like precision, because all four corners of all bills in the famous press photos are more or less uniform.

Also, with the recent info about the diatoms, and with the assertion that they had to enter the bills when fanned out in the water, do you have any thoughts on how a fanned-out packet of bills with a maximum of two sides facing the oncoming water while held in place, would have rounded edges while the insides of the bills were also exposed? Wouldn't some rip in half at the site where the pressure was applied, ie the bands or this other thing holding it in place?

Can you provide an example of another man-made object taken from a river that bears the same or similar physical appearance or characteristics including uniformity? Paper, linen, cardboard, or cloth preferred, but not mandatory.  I'd be more inclined to agree with an example.  Also, why would the bills in the bundle have had no incremental size difference? Usually river rounding on a 3-dimensional object takes place on length, width and height, not just length and width.

I do like your observation that the money would have ended up on the Oregon side if it made a right turn with the river, and I think that your thoughts on the Caterpillar Island and the vortices in the river show you have put a lot of thought into this.

How do the 12 groups re-assemble into what the Ingrams saw and found?

How many pieces and in what order did the Imgram's extract these bills?

What was the orientarion of the find and its pieces with respect to the river - paralleled with the river?  Perpendicular to river?  At some angle to ... ?

How do the damaged bills in the photo align, as found and extracted?

. . .  dont you need that information for making a judgement about the money and its history? Can you even make a judgement about history based only on the photo?

Where is the full picture of the money on the table vs the cropped newspaper photo we have? Does Tom have the full complete photo to share?

or does none of this matter ?
« Last Edit: May 17, 2020, 05:47:12 PM by georger »
 

Offline Unsurelock

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4792 on: May 17, 2020, 06:10:42 PM »
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Let me explain the money as I see it:

First, the condition of the bills: The bills are  not rounded because of river rock action. If this was the case then the fronts and backs of the stacks would have also been "rounded" and the rubber bands would have been completely destroyed and missing. However, the rubber bands were still in place when the money was found.

Alright, so you're seeing what I'm seeing then.

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Also, I have analyzed 377's bill extensively and determined that what is left of the bill accounts for only about 25% of the original bill. Importantly, the missing outer edges (75%) is uniform around the entirety of the bill.

Yup. But the sides lost more material than the top and bottom - for reference, Flyjack posted a picture that is a good visual, showing an overlay of a complete $20 over a Cooper bill. I see the uniformity in what is left, though.

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In fact, this is precisely what I would expect with the bills being buried and organisms eating away at the bill from all four edges. This "rot" should theoretically occur at a uniform pace.

So there are several money experiments being done right now. First is Tom Kaye's, where he noted that after 33 months his test bills showed no degradation except for shrinkage at the edges. His thought were that perhaps it needed a better environment to foster bacterial growth. We'll see, I hope. Another test is Galen Cook's, and the results were that after 9 months it "didn't look anything like" the Ingram bills. No more information on that thus far.

How long was bacteria at work on these bills? Anywhere from 0-8 years, depending on whom you talk to. I see a very good spot on one of the stacks in this photo (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login) that looks to me like yes, something was devouring that cash wholesale. Nothing about that is uniform. Top left edges look trimmed/shrunk, top right looks like something was eating them.

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Second, the torque: If you look at Tom's "torque" image on his site you'll notice something peculiar...in fact, it does not appear that a single stack of bills was torqued. Rather, it appears that you have two separate stacks of bills, one on top of the other, however slightly askew relative to each other. Indeed, I think we're looking at two separate stacks of bills versus one stack that is "torqued."

I just went back and searched Tom's site for the word "torque" and found nothing. Can you post a link to the pic you're referring to?
 

Offline Unsurelock

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4793 on: May 17, 2020, 06:24:17 PM »
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Let me explain the money as I see it:

First, the condition of the bills: The bills are  not rounded because of river rock action. If this was the case then the fronts and backs of the stacks would have also been "rounded" and the rubber bands would have been completely destroyed and missing. However, the rubber bands were still in place when the money was found. Also, I have analyzed 377's bill extensively and determined that what is left of the bill accounts for only about 25% of the original bill. Importantly, the missing outer edges (75%) is uniform around the entirety of the bill. In fact, this is precisely what I would expect with the bills being buried and organisms eating away at the bill from all four edges. This "rot" should theoretically occur at a uniform pace.

Second, the torque: If you look at Tom's "torque" image on his site you'll notice something peculiar...in fact, it does not appear that a single stack of bills was torqued. Rather, it appears that you have two separate stacks of bills, one on top of the other, however slightly askew relative to each other. Indeed, I think we're looking at two separate stacks of bills versus one stack that is "torqued."

The point is that something apparently restrained one end the bills so that over time water action could break off the remainder of the bills and this means the packets were exposed to significant water and maybe air action at some point.

However, this by itself also rules out the possibility of these packets, along with the fragments, coming down the main channel of the Columbia River and indicates that everything arrived at the same time.  If Cooper, or the money bag, had ended up in the Columbia River east of the I-5 bridge, he would have been on the Oregon side of the river after it made the turn north regardless of whether he was on the bottom of the river or on the surface.

The Columbia River water coming through the channel on the east side of Caterpillar Island is going to be slower than the water in the river's main channel. This channel water forms a boundary between the main river water and the sand at Tina Bar once it is past Caterpillar Island.  In addition, the main river channel creates vortices in the river that are clockwise as view from above on the Tina Bar side.  That is, these vortices would slow the CI channel water a bit also.

All of the above supports the ideas that the money arrived at Tina Bar while still in a damaged bag during a flood event and/or that it was planted there by human means.

Robert,

I don't think this is apparent, as you said, but I am listening. 

I find issues with the bag surviving all the way up until Tena Bar, but the rubber bands staying put in the water, when most of the material holding them taught was being chipped away by flow. The bands would have to have stayed elastic, contracting as the money was eaten away by river water, or the packets would wiggle out of their grasp. That limits the amount of time they could have been so affected. It also means that whatever held the bundle in place would likely have to have turned it with rotisserie-like precision, because all four corners of all bills in the famous press photos are more or less uniform.

Also, with the recent info about the diatoms, and with the assertion that they had to enter the bills when fanned out in the water, do you have any thoughts on how a fanned-out packet of bills with a maximum of two sides facing the oncoming water while held in place, would have rounded edges while the insides of the bills were also exposed? Wouldn't some rip in half at the site where the pressure was applied, ie the bands or this other thing holding it in place?

Can you provide an example of another man-made object taken from a river that bears the same or similar physical appearance or characteristics including uniformity? Paper, linen, cardboard, or cloth preferred, but not mandatory.  I'd be more inclined to agree with an example.  Also, why would the bills in the bundle have had no incremental size difference? Usually river rounding on a 3-dimensional object takes place on length, width and height, not just length and width.

I do like your observation that the money would have ended up on the Oregon side if it made a right turn with the river, and I think that your thoughts on the Caterpillar Island and the vortices in the river show you have put a lot of thought into this.

How do the 12 groups re-assemble into what the Ingrams saw and found?

How many pieces and in what order did the Imgram's extract these bills?

What was the orientarion of the find and its pieces with respect to the river - paralleled with the river?  Perpendicular to river?  At some angle to ... ?

How do the damaged bills in the photo align, as found and extracted?

. . .  dont you need that information for making a judgement about the money and its history? Can you even make a judgement about history based only on the photo?

Where is the full picture of the money on the table vs the cropped newspaper photo we have? Does Tom have the full complete photo to share?

or does none of this matter ?

It matters, and I think you're trying hard to present it otherwise.
 

Offline Unsurelock

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4794 on: May 17, 2020, 06:26:53 PM »
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Let me explain the money as I see it:

First, the condition of the bills: The bills are  not rounded because of river rock action. If this was the case then the fronts and backs of the stacks would have also been "rounded" and the rubber bands would have been completely destroyed and missing. However, the rubber bands were still in place when the money was found. Also, I have analyzed 377's bill extensively and determined that what is left of the bill accounts for only about 25% of the original bill. Importantly, the missing outer edges (75%) is uniform around the entirety of the bill. In fact, this is precisely what I would expect with the bills being buried and organisms eating away at the bill from all four edges. This "rot" should theoretically occur at a uniform pace.

Second, the torque: If you look at Tom's "torque" image on his site you'll notice something peculiar...in fact, it does not appear that a single stack of bills was torqued. Rather, it appears that you have two separate stacks of bills, one on top of the other, however slightly askew relative to each other. Indeed, I think we're looking at two separate stacks of bills versus one stack that is "torqued."

The point is that something apparently restrained one end the bills so that over time water action could break off the remainder of the bills and this means the packets were exposed to significant water and maybe air action at some point.

However, this by itself also rules out the possibility of these packets, along with the fragments, coming down the main channel of the Columbia River and indicates that everything arrived at the same time.  If Cooper, or the money bag, had ended up in the Columbia River east of the I-5 bridge, he would have been on the Oregon side of the river after it made the turn north regardless of whether he was on the bottom of the river or on the surface.

The Columbia River water coming through the channel on the east side of Caterpillar Island is going to be slower than the water in the river's main channel. This channel water forms a boundary between the main river water and the sand at Tina Bar once it is past Caterpillar Island.  In addition, the main river channel creates vortices in the river that are clockwise as view from above on the Tina Bar side.  That is, these vortices would slow the CI channel water a bit also.

All of the above supports the ideas that the money arrived at Tina Bar while still in a damaged bag during a flood event and/or that it was planted there by human means.

Robert,

I don't think this is apparent, as you said, but I am listening. 

I find issues with the bag surviving all the way up until Tena Bar, but the rubber bands staying put in the water, when most of the material holding them taught was being chipped away by flow. The bands would have to have stayed elastic, contracting as the money was eaten away by river water, or the packets would wiggle out of their grasp. That limits the amount of time they could have been so affected. It also means that whatever held the bundle in place would likely have to have turned it with rotisserie-like precision, because all four corners of all bills in the famous press photos are more or less uniform.

Also, with the recent info about the diatoms, and with the assertion that they had to enter the bills when fanned out in the water, do you have any thoughts on how a fanned-out packet of bills with a maximum of two sides facing the oncoming water while held in place, would have rounded edges while the insides of the bills were also exposed? Wouldn't some rip in half at the site where the pressure was applied, ie the bands or this other thing holding it in place?

Can you provide an example of another man-made object taken from a river that bears the same or similar physical appearance or characteristics including uniformity? Paper, linen, cardboard, or cloth preferred, but not mandatory.  I'd be more inclined to agree with an example.  Also, why would the bills in the bundle have had no incremental size difference? Usually river rounding on a 3-dimensional object takes place on length, width and height, not just length and width.

I do like your observation that the money would have ended up on the Oregon side if it made a right turn with the river, and I think that your thoughts on the Caterpillar Island and the vortices in the river show you have put a lot of thought into this.
 

Offline EU

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4795 on: May 17, 2020, 06:51:13 PM »
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I just went back and searched Tom's site for the word "torque" and found nothing. Can you post a link to the pic you're referring to?

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Offline Unsurelock

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4796 on: May 17, 2020, 07:06:08 PM »
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I just went back and searched Tom's site for the word "torque" and found nothing. Can you post a link to the pic you're referring to?

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I've picked up after kids before. Leave a stack of rubber banded Monopoly money in a kid's room, come back later and see if you find it looking similarly "torqued."

This is wet money just under the surface of a beach where people go for recreation. Close your eyes, apply an imaginary footstep in the sand, right on top of the money. Keep your mind's eye on that money. As you apply your weight, feel your foot slide out and to the side a bit, taking the closest money with it, then apply one last bit of force forward as you push off with the ball of your foot. What happened to the money?

I'm not claiming this is exactly what did this to the bills, but I don't think it has to be complex.
 
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Offline EU

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4797 on: May 17, 2020, 08:47:01 PM »
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I've picked up after kids before. Leave a stack of rubber banded Monopoly money in a kid's room, come back later and see if you find it looking similarly "torqued."

This is wet money just under the surface of a beach where people go for recreation. Close your eyes, apply an imaginary footstep in the sand, right on top of the money. Keep your mind's eye on that money. As you apply your weight, feel your foot slide out and to the side a bit, taking the closest money with it, then apply one last bit of force forward as you push off with the ball of your foot. What happened to the money?

I'm not claiming this is exactly what did this to the bills, but I don't think it has to be complex.

My point is, the money packet is not torqued. Rather, it appears that there is one un-torqued packet on top of another un-torqued packet.

Also, Tena Bar is not--and was not--that popular where every square foot of the beach was being trampled upon by beach goers. Not to mention, the money was probably originally buried at least a foot or two below the surface.
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Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4798 on: May 17, 2020, 11:37:56 PM »
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I just went back and searched Tom's site for the word "torque" and found nothing. Can you post a link to the pic you're referring to?

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Which of groups 1-12 does Tom's 'torqued' bill come from? Show us.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2020, 11:38:33 PM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4799 on: May 17, 2020, 11:40:18 PM »
Does group #5 show torquetting ?