Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tina Bar Money Find  (Read 464942 times)

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4725 on: February 22, 2020, 12:06:54 AM »
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Perhaps both of you should stop responding to each other?

I tried that - even left for almost two months. It didnt work.  There will be no discussion of case points tonight, by me.

The TRUTH IS, this is a campaign being conducted by R99 and Ulis (maybe others) and nobody is going to stop it. R99 has even branched out to Dropzone where he is attacking FLYJACK ... its a campaign to wipe out all competition.

It's a no win situation for everyone! 

Current victims this week alone are: Kermit, Bruce Smith, Nicky, FLYJACK, and another whose name I forget. The body count just goes higher and higher..... Tom Kaye is on their last; they just havent geared up for that yet!  ;)

I came here tonight to discuss diatoms with material prepared but have been diverted by R99 crap!

Get your diatom material from Kaye, Ulis, and R99. Im done.
 
Goodnight.

Georger, I'll give you a pass on this post which is baloney.  If you do this again, I will correct your nonsense.

How big of you - troll :congrats: :rofl:
« Last Edit: February 22, 2020, 12:08:17 AM by georger »
 

Offline Tom Kaye

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4726 on: February 22, 2020, 11:40:31 AM »
All,
Attached is the last and most conclusive diatom picture from 377's bill. It shows a completely intact A. formosa sandwiched between two layers of bills.  This finding shows that the formosa had to float into that position while the bills were fanned out in the water.  It would be impossible for a diatom to work its way in between the bills while they were buried and under compression. We have now examined all the fragments from 377's bill so this will be the last update.

Tom Kaye

dropbox.com/s/4zy2z54v3dr5lpm/Stub%201210-6N.jpg?dl=0   pic for those not registered
« Last Edit: February 22, 2020, 12:50:18 PM by Tom Kaye »
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4727 on: February 22, 2020, 04:52:30 PM »
 Andrade1812 asks in the other forum: (same Q I asked earlier and gave a pdf url)


"To what depth are diatoms found?"

Anyone know, or have a source - 

**I found this some days ago: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Abstract

High densities of diatoms were found attached to sand grains down to half a metre below the sediment surface (6.5 g chl a m−2) on an exposed beach (Lough Neagh, N. Ireland). However, seasonal variation of biomass was low (11–21 µg chl a g−1 dry sand). Sand movement was the main controlling factor but silica and nitrate limitation also contributed during summer months. Laboratory assays showed that nutrients were derived mostly from the overlying water. Two species dominated but with very different strategies for coping in this abrasive environment. Cymbellonitzschia diluviana was small, low growing and aggregated in depressions whereas the larger, non-motile and stalked Martyana martyi was dispersed over the most exposed surfaces. Their contrasting distributions are related to their different structure and modes of cell division. However, one adaptation common to both species was the ability to form resting cells. We investigated the environmental factors controlling the formation and recovery of resting cells using both chloroplast shape and fluorescence indicators. Both species showed a gradual change in and out of the resting state, which enabled them to compromise between the need to conserve energy when buried but recover rapidly when brought back to the surface by wave action and water level changes.

« Last Edit: February 22, 2020, 04:59:24 PM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4728 on: February 22, 2020, 05:54:19 PM »
FJ posts without citing any source:

 FLYJACK

    FLYJACK
     
    1 hour ago, Andrade1812 said:

    To what depth are diatoms found?

That is not a simple question,, it depends on the diatom and the material.

A. Formosa in non-motile, some diatoms are motile.

I found a sampling that had A. Formosa down to 10cm in lake sediment. Other diatoms much further. That is a soft nutrient rich environment under water not a course sand bar.

I am still looking for more on A. Formosa specidically in sand...

Kaye seems to suggest the A. Formosa wouldn't penetrate the course sand or into a tight packet. The seasonal bloom doesn't match Norjak.

Quote
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4729 on: February 22, 2020, 06:07:30 PM »
I think there is confusion going on in this whole discussion due in part to Tom referring to a-formosa as a "diatom". Kaye answered one of my questions saying 'a formosa is a DIATOM'! Well yes Tom, but that isn't the whole story especially when it comes to interpreting your photos and understanding the different forms a-formosa may take during its life cycle ...

Maybe the chart attached will help?

Its my understanding that a-formosa starts as a bud, grows into a stalk, and then given enough time and space, individual stalks (each a diatom) may attach to each other at the base of the valve to form a star-shaped "colony" which is the star shaped form of a-formosa often shown. The star-shaped a-formosa often shown is actually a "colony" of individual a-formosa diatoms. I think that needs to be clearly understood.

Tom has shown one photo showing individual stalks (each a diatom) in the process of trying to attach to form a colony ...

Tom's latest photo shows individual stalks (each a diatom) which are presumably wedged in between fragments of bills and Tom draws conclusions from that ...

I just think it is important to explain what is being shown, before people start drawing conclusions about what is being reported. Here is a chart that may be helpful... each star shaped object is a "colony" of individual a-formosa diatoms. 

If I am wrong somebody please correct me!  *My personal bias is that things needs to be well-explained and sourced, but this is proving difficult with so many people playing or being experts. Its the Cooper curse of competing personalities and agendas. (No, I did not use the word "agendae" for critics who will pounce... on nothing!)  ;) 

« Last Edit: February 22, 2020, 06:20:14 PM by georger »
 

Offline andrade1812

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4730 on: February 22, 2020, 07:07:08 PM »
I meant in water, not in sand. With diatoms getting a meter down through wet sand... this will get complicated.
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4731 on: February 22, 2020, 11:43:33 PM »
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I meant in water, not in sand. With diatoms getting a meter down through wet sand... this will get complicated.

If sand is disturbed by water intrusion, its only logical diatoms would go wherever water goes. Tidal action could promote that process. Dumping water and spoils on the beach during dredging also comes to mind. I think FJ is correct - a-formosa is not motile meaning it doesn't swim or propagate under its own power. It is a floater and when it joins in colonies that can suspend on particles in water. But yours is an important question. My question is: would there be diatoms into Palmer's cross bedded layer, under the upper active layer through stirring under forces of water? Im going to try and get to the bottom of the longstanding tide line issue. This should have been dispensed with years ago. Will make two calls tomorrow and report back if I can. 

In addition, if Tom has somehow placed the age of his diatoms at June/July (summer), in the life cycle of this diatom, would August be a stretch? The dredging occurred in August 74.  And, I am wondering if there are other biological or even genetic tests that could be run on the diatoms on 377's bill ?   
« Last Edit: February 23, 2020, 12:08:16 AM by georger »
 

Offline Tom Kaye

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4732 on: February 23, 2020, 02:18:40 AM »

"would August be a stretch?"
According to this chart from a publication there should be near zero in August. We have some other elemental proportion tests we can do on the diatoms but it requires a reference set from the Columbia. Working on that.

Tom Kaye
dropbox.com/s/6vujkvxv1ng1ksp/Radioactive%20plankton%20from%20columbia%20river%20book.jpg?dl=0  link to pic
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4733 on: February 23, 2020, 04:08:32 AM »
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"would August be a stretch?"
According to this chart from a publication there should be near zero in August. We have some other elemental proportion tests we can do on the diatoms but it requires a reference set from the Columbia. Working on that.

Tom Kaye
dropbox.com/s/6vujkvxv1ng1ksp/Radioactive%20plankton%20from%20columbia%20river%20book.jpg?dl=0  link to pic

ok - wow! - Tom you're being very thorough - glad you looked at this. Back to the drawing board!  And thanks.      :congrats:
« Last Edit: February 23, 2020, 04:17:09 AM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4734 on: February 23, 2020, 04:35:38 PM »
msc -

Two agents say they were aware of the Fazio's statement that 'the money came up with the last high tide in 1980' but they say, they think, the Fazios miss-spoke and meant 'the last high water' which is completely different. These agents say the tides never get up as high as the Ingram find - period.

They say the drop in elevation from the fence near the road to the water line in 1980, was probably about 4-5 feet, a 'very gentle slope from the water clear up to the road and fence' - just as photos show. They say that during high water periods water can easily come up to the road (behind the Ingram find location) and even beyond the fence into the pasture behind the road.

Another person says the water today is up behind the fence and he is going down to Tina Bar to photograph it ... for posting here. This person is amazed that through all the years at Cooper forums, nobody has documented the elevation and slope, or water lines, at Tina Bar ... with charts or photos anyone could understand!   
« Last Edit: February 23, 2020, 04:37:31 PM by georger »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4735 on: February 23, 2020, 05:17:07 PM »
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msc -

Two agents say they were aware of the Fazio's statement that 'the money came up with the last high tide in 1980' but they say, they think, the Fazios miss-spoke and meant 'the last high water' which is completely different. These agents say the tides never get up as high as the Ingram find - period.

They say the drop in elevation from the fence near the road to the water line in 1980, was probably about 4-5 feet, a 'very gentle slope from the water clear up to the road and fence' - just as photos show. They say that during high water periods water can easily come up to the road (behind the Ingram find location) and even beyond the fence into the pasture behind the road.

Another person says the water today is up behind the fence and he is going down to Tina Bar to photograph it ... for posting here. This person is amazed that through all the years at Cooper forums, nobody has documented the elevation and slope, or water lines, at Tina Bar ... with charts or photos anyone could understand!   

What fence are you talking about?  The road does go downhill somewhat from the Tina Bar Gate (which is about 20 feet above sea level) and is about 5 or 6 feet above the nominal river level in the area where the money was found.  However, the only fence that parallels the river is on top of the berm which is on the west side of the containment pit.  This fence is even higher than the gate.

A fellow who was familiar with Tina Bar told Dr. Meyer Louie and myself in 2013 that water from the containment pit had never entered the river and vice-versa. This has repeatedly been discussed on DropZone and here over the years.  You have one fence to far.
 

Offline EU

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4736 on: February 23, 2020, 06:42:51 PM »
Let me comment about the money find spot relative to the water's edge in 1980 and the "Tina Bar" sign as it stands today.

The slope of the beach was approximately 12 degrees in 1980 based upon my estimates and what I've seen from Palmer in terms of drawings depicting the slope. Therefore, the money being buried approximately 50 feet from the water's edge--as shown in 1980--is about 10 feet above the level of the river.

Additionally, the money find spot is approximately 40 feet from the edge of the old gravel road (due east). The slope being relatively consistent puts the road about 10 feet above the money find spot and about 20 feet about the level of the river.

Again these are estimates based upon personal observation and other research.

The "Tina Bar" sign is approximately another 10-15 feet above the gravel road near the money find spot. Therefore, a rough estimate has the "Tina Bar" sign approximately 30-35 feet above the base level of the river.

According to Richard Fazio, the water level did not rise to the level of the "Tina Bar" sign thereby affording it the opportunity to spill over into the retention pond just northeast of the "Tina Bar" sign. Rather it was within a few feet. Referring to the 1996 high-water event.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2020, 06:53:55 PM by EU »
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Offline Tom Kaye

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4737 on: February 23, 2020, 10:22:58 PM »
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This person is amazed that through all the years at Cooper forums, nobody has documented the elevation and slope, or water lines, at Tina Bar ... with charts or photos anyone could understand!   

From our trip in 2009, Tena Bar starting from water line:
   10' - 11.2°
   20' - 10.6°
   30' - 10.2°
   40' - 10.1°
Using 10.6° as an average then 50' in would be 9.3' up.

Tom Kaye



« Last Edit: February 23, 2020, 10:23:36 PM by Tom Kaye »
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4738 on: February 24, 2020, 02:22:30 PM »
Thanks for the elevation data, Tom.

We seem to have a miss-match? The diatoms seem to date later, or earlier, than when the Ingrams claim they found the money, in February 1980. How is that possible?

Was the money still damp when the Ingrams turned it into the FBI, indicating the money had just been found? Or was it completely dry? Is it possible the Ingrams found the money in June/July of the previous year and only got around to trying to redeem or declare it the following year, in February 1980? The diatoms on the bills should match the date of discovery? Or, no diatoms were present yet in 1980, to show on the bills - it was too early for diatoms to have formed in February 1980? 
« Last Edit: February 24, 2020, 02:38:18 PM by georger »
 

Offline 377

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4739 on: February 24, 2020, 03:00:08 PM »
So pleasing to see a civil scientific discourse on the forum. Hope
it lasts.

The more we learn about the T Bar money find the more puzzling it becomes. Strange.

377