Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tina Bar Money Find  (Read 444258 times)

Offline Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4605 on: January 27, 2020, 12:55:07 AM »
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This is all meaningless unless we have a control sample we can compare it to...

How would a control sample fit into this?  It is an absolutely safe assumption that nothing from the Columbia River was on those bills when they were given to Cooper.  And everything that has been identified so far is, according to Georger, consistent with the money find location.

Lets see your id's ?  What's your complaint?

How about you showing some id's for once?  Do you know how control samples are used?  You can answer with a simple "yes" or "no", but will probably just ignore the question.  If you think a control sample could be used here, then how about enlightening those who do actually know how control samples are used? 
 

Offline andrade1812

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4606 on: January 27, 2020, 10:38:03 AM »
I would want bills that had been exposed upstream, somewhere near where Tosaw believes Cooper splashed. I would want bills that had been in the Washougal. And I would want to test whether being in the bag or out of the bag made a difference.

My belief is the money was tightly packed in the bag at the bottom of the river until it hit the dredge. If the diatoms don't penetrate deep into the bag, then we would only expect to find diatoms once everything was ripped open.

Without some experiments to make comparisons, this whole discussion is futile.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4607 on: January 27, 2020, 11:25:00 AM »
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I would want bills that had been exposed upstream, somewhere near where Tosaw believes Cooper splashed. I would want bills that had been in the Washougal. And I would want to test whether being in the bag or out of the bag made a difference.

My belief is the money was tightly packed in the bag at the bottom of the river until it hit the dredge. If the diatoms don't penetrate deep into the bag, then we would only expect to find diatoms once everything was ripped open.

Without some experiments to make comparisons, this whole discussion is futile.

The evidence you seek may already be available.  If Georger knows the diatom situation at the money find location then perhaps he knows it at other points in the Columbia watershed including the Washougal.

If my memory is correct, Tom Kaye has some river water from Tina Bar.  Also, I believe he has been conducting some experiments using actual money bills in soil samples from Tina Bar.  Further, I believe that he did some experiments using actual bills in which he placed them in the water somewhere (Washougal area?) with his contact information if anyone found them.  He may have received something back from those experiments that he could check for diatoms.

I doubt if the money could have been packed tight enough to prevent a representative sample of river water from saturating all the bills.  If the diatoms can only be seen with electron microscopes, then I suggest that they could probably pass through the bag materials.

Your stated belief is that the money arrived at Tina Bar by dredging.  The actual money find location appears to have been several hundred feet downstream from the location where the dredged materials were placed at Tina Bar.  Since three bundles were found within a handful of inches of each other and without any further restraints, I think a case can be made that they arrived at the same time and this strongly suggests that they didn't go through a dredge.   
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4608 on: January 27, 2020, 03:29:55 PM »
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I would want bills that had been exposed upstream, somewhere near where Tosaw believes Cooper splashed. I would want bills that had been in the Washougal. And I would want to test whether being in the bag or out of the bag made a difference.

My belief is the money was tightly packed in the bag at the bottom of the river until it hit the dredge. If the diatoms don't penetrate deep into the bag, then we would only expect to find diatoms once everything was ripped open.

Without some experiments to make comparisons, this whole discussion is futile.

The diatoms only arrived several days ago and already you want more samples from 500 different other places and directions - we dont even have the diatoms just found classified! What's the emergency? Likewise, this is 2020. The bills date back to 1971 and before! Why not require bills from the Seafirst bank dating back to 1950 be examined, to see what diatoms are on them - as a control !?

How about taking one thing at a time first and foremost? I see no value in a diatom stampede that splinters off in 500 new directions before the basic facts of the evidence just found is even known.  >:D 

Q: would diatoms found in different locations today, be the same diatoms found in those locations say 1950-1980?

Fact:   The Ingram money was NOT found in a canvas bag!

Suggestion: why dont you people learn something about diatoms first before blowing off about Cooper diatom theories !? The Ingram bill examined by Tom shows only 'pieces/broken stems' of A. Formosa, not whole or even parts of fully assembled Formosa? Why is that?  ;) 

Without some order, this whole discussion is futile and pointless.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2020, 03:47:48 PM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4609 on: January 27, 2020, 03:59:58 PM »
Very likely, diatom experts are going to have to be consulted, in order to evaluate the diatoms Tom found a few days ago. There is nobody in this forum who is a diatom expert! Only experts can clarify some of the issues that are going to develop in this matter.

Why dont we allow Tom time and space to work this problem?  :chr2:

I see somewhere between 5-7 separate diatom species in Tom's photos. Correct identification is important. Tom may need to do more sem work to better clarify what exists on this bill.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2020, 04:06:26 PM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4610 on: January 27, 2020, 04:21:27 PM »
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I would want bills that had been exposed upstream, somewhere near where Tosaw believes Cooper splashed. I would want bills that had been in the Washougal. And I would want to test whether being in the bag or out of the bag made a difference.

My belief is the money was tightly packed in the bag at the bottom of the river until it hit the dredge. If the diatoms don't penetrate deep into the bag, then we would only expect to find diatoms once everything was ripped open.

Without some experiments to make comparisons, this whole discussion is futile.

Well, hmmm,    there is no guarantee this forum will even exist after this week, according to Shutter's last post! That alone could make this whole discussion futile. That is the UNCERTAINTY WE ARE LIVING UNDER HERE! Or, that I  will be kicked off at the request of Eric Ulis and R99 ... at the end of this week?

Without some simple security to live and work, this whole discussion could be futile. It's one helluva way to have to live and work for some of us! Cooper forums are very political and sometimes there is no way around it!   

 :chr2: :conspiracy:
« Last Edit: January 27, 2020, 04:26:10 PM by georger »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4611 on: January 27, 2020, 04:26:32 PM »
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I would want bills that had been exposed upstream, somewhere near where Tosaw believes Cooper splashed. I would want bills that had been in the Washougal. And I would want to test whether being in the bag or out of the bag made a difference.

My belief is the money was tightly packed in the bag at the bottom of the river until it hit the dredge. If the diatoms don't penetrate deep into the bag, then we would only expect to find diatoms once everything was ripped open.

Without some experiments to make comparisons, this whole discussion is futile.

The diatoms only arrived several days ago and already you want more samples from 500 different other places and directions - we dont even have the diatoms just found classified! What's the emergency? Likewise, this is 2020. The bills date back to 1971 and before! Why not require bills from the Seafirst bank dating back to 1950 be examined, to see what diatoms are on them - as a control !?

How about taking one thing at a time first and foremost? I see no value in a diatom stampede that splinters off in 500 new directions before the basic facts of the evidence just found is even known.  >:D 

Q: would diatoms found in different locations today, be the same diatoms found in those locations say 1950-1980?

Fact:   The Ingram money was NOT found in a canvas bag!

Suggestion: why dont you people learn something about diatoms first before blowing off about Cooper diatom theories !? The Ingram bill examined by Tom shows only 'pieces/broken stems' of A. Formosa, not whole or even parts of fully assembled Formosa? Why is that?  ;) 

Without some order, this whole discussion is futile and pointless.

Georger, how dare you speak to Andrade like this!  And you haven't even said a cross word to me so far today!  I'm feeling neglected!
 

Offline andrade1812

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4612 on: January 27, 2020, 05:28:40 PM »
This was actually more fun than I've had in a long time on this forum.

Bro hugs all around...

If anyone has a number for a diatom expert, I'd be happy to give them a call.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2020, 05:51:25 PM by andrade1812 »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4613 on: January 27, 2020, 05:53:44 PM »
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This was actually more fun than I've had in a long time on this forum.

Bro hugs all around...

where do diatoms go? Diatom graveyard? What are diatoms? How do they work in the food chain? Are there diatoms in bottom sediments? If bottom sediments are dredged up and put on beaches, do those sediments contain old pieces of diatoms? Broken pieces of old silica skeletons? Why so many broken pieces of A formosa on 77's bill?

What is the difference between a dead and a living diatom? Were the diatoms found on 77's bill living or dead when they were deposited on the bill? 

Have you got a map of species distribution from say Camas up to the Lewis river ... ?

Do you see anything in the chart attached that you see in Tom's photos?
« Last Edit: January 27, 2020, 05:58:25 PM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4614 on: January 27, 2020, 11:39:43 PM »
FLYJACK'S latest re-incarnation of his Packet theory!

FLYJACK
12 hours ago (edited)

Cooper offered Tina a cigarette and she took one (at least).. 7 Raleigh's were identified and another one was assumed to be a Raleigh.. all attributed to Cooper.

So, what happened to the cigarette Tina smoked? Was it one of those?

Also...

"It is felt Unsub was not an experienced criminal because of his mannerism exhibited after he received the ransom money. Unsub reportedly became somewhat childish, in his actions and comments while counting the money."

How does Cooper count the money if it was randomized?

Georger and Larry Carr got this wrong,

Carr wrote..

"The money was packaged in varying amounts, so one bundle would have $500.00 another $1,000.00, there was no uniformity to it. I have been searching for the evidence report from the lab but have not found it yet, lots of files to go through. When I get it you'll be the second to know."

There are many credible reports that the bundles were randomized... not the packets (100 bills). Carr incorrectly assumed the packets were randomized.

What does this mean...

Everybody assumes the 3 packets arrived at TBAR independently but together. That would indicate that they had to be in some container or placed there. This is completely false. The money went to Cooper in packets of 100 and those rubber banded into random sized bundles. We know the packets were not randomized then only the bundles could have been randomized. So, how did the three TBAR packets get removed from their bundle?? It is possible somebody removed them after Cooper got the money or they landed on TBAR as part/all of a single randomized bundle. That expands the means by which the money could have arrived at TBAR.

It is false to conclude the TBAR packets could have only arrived independently..

Brian Ingram, who discovered ransom money in 1980: "We are out here making a campfire, my father and I, and that’s when we discovered the three packets of $20 bills, later to be proven as ransom money of D.B. Cooper."
Edited 11 hours ago by FLYJACK


New take-away:
Brian knew FLYJACK banking terminology, at eight years old! Brian saw paper straps on the money but lied to the FBI and others including Georger about it!  :o

Good work, FLYJACK.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2020, 11:55:08 PM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4615 on: January 28, 2020, 02:14:51 PM »
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This was actually more fun than I've had in a long time on this forum.

Bro hugs all around...

If anyone has a number for a diatom expert, I'd be happy to give them a call.

And what would you ask?   ;)

I was talking to a guy today that reminded me several people have collected sand samples at Tina Bar and other sites in that area, as a part of a long term monitoring program, going clear back to 1980 and earlier! There is a chance those sand samples still exist ... and could be examined for diatoms. There's your control samples, potentially! 
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4616 on: January 31, 2020, 12:22:47 AM »
Tom - pse do an elemental survey of 77's bill, like you of the previous bills ?
« Last Edit: January 31, 2020, 12:27:59 AM by georger »
 

Offline Tom Kaye

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4617 on: February 12, 2020, 03:25:00 AM »
All,

I have a big update for the Cooper Vortex. 377 let me take additional larger samples from his Cooper bill. I went through the largest of the pieces tonight under the SEM and found additional “hair pin” specimens. While we found these previously, the tubes were not fully intact. The latest ones are in 3D and allowed for species ID. We did not however find any entirely intact specimens with multiple spines.

Georger previously identified the “hair pins” as the diatom Asterionella and Flyjack found out that Asterionella formosa was a winter species and A. japonica was a summer species. Flyjack came up with a list of species in the Columbia and I was able to come up with pictures for most but not all of them. So I caution that new evidence could overthrow these findings but the missing species seem to be rare or contested. It turns out the only species we find on the bill is A. formosa, the winter species. The summer species japonica is WAY different than formosa so there is very little chance of confusion. So this data suggests that the money had a water transport phase that happened in winter and shortly thereafter was buried on Tena Bar.

Here is the reasoning. Given the spindly nature of these things and the fact we find a few of them together, means it is very unlikely that they would penetrate through the sand to get on the bills. One spine might get through but a couple would be highly unlikely to end up in the same place and we found several spots with multiple spines. If they could penetrate the sand we should find winter and summer species but we don’t.  We also know that it is unlikely they came from Brian Ingram washing them off in the river because he was there during the summer.

This is the first evidence based timing information that constrains when the money arrived on Tena Bar and the first new evidence since the money was found that I can think of. It supports a water transport phase before burial. It does not support a human burial on TB. It dismisses the dredge theory because that happens during the summer. It supports the timing of the jump in November but not for Cooper burying the money himself. It supports the western flight path theories where Cooper could have dropped some bundles during the free fall. It completely dismisses the multi-year transport across multiple waterways.

So this new diatom data supports a watery, winter arrival on Tena Bar. Bravo to 377 for letting me tear into his bill, he is now forever locked into the story of DB Cooper. This theory is based on research of several people, it would be good to get that verified. Pics to follow.

Tom Kaye
« Last Edit: February 12, 2020, 03:41:05 AM by Tom Kaye »
 
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Offline Tom Kaye

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4618 on: February 12, 2020, 03:33:06 AM »
Pictures used for ID. Japonica has pointed ends and a triangular base, formosa has the round tips.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2020, 03:33:35 AM by Tom Kaye »
 

Offline Tom Kaye

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4619 on: February 12, 2020, 03:34:50 AM »
Pictures from 377's Cooper Bill