Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tina Bar Money Find  (Read 444279 times)

Offline 377

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4575 on: January 21, 2020, 06:11:22 PM »
Ahhh, I get it.

Well I have had a lot of "conversations" with my Cooper Twenty. They seem to be very one-sided.

377
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4576 on: January 21, 2020, 11:52:10 PM »
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Whatever the source of the heat, the waters of the Columbia are delightful to swim in during the summer.

I have swum downstream of The Dalles in July and it was fine. I have swum at Tina Bar in August, and it was sublime. At T-Bar on that day, the air temp was 105 degrees F, btw... so maybe the toasty-woasty water temps may be due to processes less dramatic than subterranean volcanic disturbances....

In fact, Robert, the last time I was at T-Bar with you in 2016 and it was a hot day. Remember? I so wanted to dive in and go for a swim while the filming was on-going, but the best that I could do was put my fingers into the water. It felt wonderful.

That 2016 day was about 90 degrees and I didn't stick my finger or anything else in the water.  I guess I was distracted by the duck that insisted on following me around.

Would you happen to have a link to the water temperatures at Bonneville Dam and specifically where those temperatures were measured?  I can't seem to find them on the Internet.

Columbia Temps before and after the Willamette confluence at Portland may be different ?

And a few googles later proves the av temps are different - no surprise. What is different is Im throwing the Willamette into this argument since nobody else did - becauze -    the Willamette is part of the equation in the Cooper river area being argued -

Heres a few anecdotes lifted from Google -

The Willamette River is running about 74 degrees at Portland right now.Aug 15, 2018

Right now the Willamette River is about 52 degrees. While that may not sound that cold, river experts say it's cold enough to shock the body.Apr 23, 2018

On the Lower Columbia River at Bonneville Dam the water temperature was nearly 71 degrees on Monday, June 30. It's the hottest temperature to-date since at least 1950, and the recent 10-year average on June 28 is 63 degrees.Jul 1, 2015

Not only is the weather unusually hot, but the water of the Columbia River is also much hotter than normal.
On the Lower Columbia River at Bonneville Dam the water temperature was nearly 71 degrees on Monday, June 30.
It’s the hottest temperature to-date since at least 1950, and the recent 10-year average on June 28 is 63 degrees.


@At Mendys you get both Willamette and Columbia nuggets for only $2 bucks! Did Cooper have a chart for this!?  :)
« Last Edit: January 22, 2020, 12:05:30 AM by georger »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4577 on: January 22, 2020, 12:26:49 AM »
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Whatever the source of the heat, the waters of the Columbia are delightful to swim in during the summer.

I have swum downstream of The Dalles in July and it was fine. I have swum at Tina Bar in August, and it was sublime. At T-Bar on that day, the air temp was 105 degrees F, btw... so maybe the toasty-woasty water temps may be due to processes less dramatic than subterranean volcanic disturbances....

In fact, Robert, the last time I was at T-Bar with you in 2016 and it was a hot day. Remember? I so wanted to dive in and go for a swim while the filming was on-going, but the best that I could do was put my fingers into the water. It felt wonderful.

That 2016 day was about 90 degrees and I didn't stick my finger or anything else in the water.  I guess I was distracted by the duck that insisted on following me around.

Would you happen to have a link to the water temperatures at Bonneville Dam and specifically where those temperatures were measured?  I can't seem to find them on the Internet.

Columbia Temps before and after the Willamette confluence at Portland may be different ?

And a few googles later proves the av temps are different - no surprise. What is different is Im throwing the Willamette into this argument since nobody else did - becauze -    the Willamette is part of the equation in the Cooper river area being argued -

Heres a few anecdotes lifted from Google -

The Willamette River is running about 74 degrees at Portland right now.Aug 15, 2018

Right now the Willamette River is about 52 degrees. While that may not sound that cold, river experts say it's cold enough to shock the body.Apr 23, 2018

On the Lower Columbia River at Bonneville Dam the water temperature was nearly 71 degrees on Monday, June 30. It's the hottest temperature to-date since at least 1950, and the recent 10-year average on June 28 is 63 degrees.Jul 1, 2015

Not only is the weather unusually hot, but the water of the Columbia River is also much hotter than normal.
On the Lower Columbia River at Bonneville Dam the water temperature was nearly 71 degrees on Monday, June 30.
It’s the hottest temperature to-date since at least 1950, and the recent 10-year average on June 28 is 63 degrees.


@At Mendys you get both Willamette and Columbia nuggets for only $2 bucks! Did Cooper have a chart for this!?  :)

Well I have now managed to find things online that agree with the above, but have yet to find an explanation for the increase.  If there is no other explanation, I would have to guess that global warming is further along than I expected.

There is also a 1969 mathematical model online for the lower Columbia River.  It is outdated but maybe a more recent one will turn up.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2020, 12:32:07 AM by Robert99 »
 

Offline Kermit

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4578 on: January 22, 2020, 01:21:49 PM »
Tons of information out there on water temperatures in the Columbia river. There’s a 1941/42 study done showing average water temperature in Vancouver, Wa averaged 72 degrees in August so I’m not sure if global warming is the main cause. There’s a long list of causes given if you want to go into several studies done. Temperatures are a huge part of fish survivals in creeks, rivers, lakes and the oceans. I’ve fished often at Panguitch Lake at 8200 ft elevation in Utah. It’s frozen solid in the winter months but in the summer months, the waters warms dramatically. This results in almost all the trout to head to the deeper water. I prefer fishing there in early spring and late fall just before and after the Lake freezing over. I’d like to deviate and go to the morning after Mt. St. Helens eruption in 1980. At 8 am the morning after the eruption, the temperate of the Cowlitz River in Longview, Washington just as it was emptying into the Columbia was a staggering 90 degrees ! Needless to say, fish died ! Shortly after the Cowlitz emptied its flow of volcanic ash and logs into the Columbia River, the main shipping channel became blocked and even stranded a large freighter in the channel at the confluence of the COWLITZ into the Columbia River at Longview.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4579 on: January 22, 2020, 02:12:11 PM »
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Tons of information out there on water temperatures in the Columbia river. There’s a 1941/42 study done showing average water temperature in Vancouver, Wa averaged 72 degrees in August so I’m not sure if global warming is the main cause. There’s a long list of causes given if you want to go into several studies done. Temperatures are a huge part of fish survivals in creeks, rivers, lakes and the oceans. I’ve fished often at Panguitch Lake at 8200 ft elevation in Utah. It’s frozen solid in the winter months but in the summer months, the waters warms dramatically. This results in almost all the trout to head to the deeper water. I prefer fishing there in early spring and late fall just before and after the Lake freezing over. I’d like to deviate and go to the morning after Mt. St. Helens eruption in 1980. At 8 am the morning after the eruption, the temperate of the Cowlitz River in Longview, Washington just as it was emptying into the Columbia was a staggering 90 degrees ! Needless to say, fish died ! Shortly after the Cowlitz emptied its flow of volcanic ash and logs into the Columbia River, the main shipping channel became blocked and even stranded a large freighter in the channel at the confluence of the COWLITZ into the Columbia River at Longview.

I have just checked the water temperatures in the Lake Mead area just upstream and downstream of Hoover Dam.  Surprisingly, they seem to be a bit colder than the water temperatures in the Bonneville Dam area.  The entrance to the power generators is at the bottom of the dam and the water temperature seems to be unaffected by going through the generators.  There is a huge difference between the surface temperature of Lake Mead and the temperatures at lower levels.  But Lake Mead is several hundred feet deep just upstream of the dam. 
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4580 on: January 23, 2020, 02:33:28 PM »
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Cooper's body, had he landed in the Columbia, would not have floated downstream very far. I talked to a rescue and body recovery diver who works on the Mississippi River in the Twin Cities of MN, and he looked up the water temperatures on that night. He told me, with water temperatures near 10 degrees Celsius, Cooper's body would have sunk to the bottom. When his crew does body recovery in such conditions, their search area is a product of water depth alone, not current. Cooper's body would have stayed at the bottom, around the point of entry, until water temperature rose in the spring. From there, Cooper's body would "pop" to the surface and start downstream with the river flow.

If the water temperature on the evening of the hijacking was 10 degrees Celsius, which translates to 50 degrees Fahrenheit, then it was warmer than the 44 degrees Fahrenheit air temperature that Portland International Airport reported at 8:00 PM that evening.

In determining if Cooper and his equipment would immediately sink, you must also consider the volumes of water displaced by the parachutes, the money bag, and anything else he had attached to his body.  While I have run these numbers years ago, I am not going to bother to look them up now.  So I leave that to you.  And just remember that it will take some time for the parachutes, money bag, etc., to get saturated and they will be displacing a cubic foot of water or so in the meantime, and that provides quite a bit of buoyancy.

Unless Cooper's body was snagged on something on the bottom of the river, it is going to be moving downstream.  There is absolutely no way that it will remain stationary otherwise.

The diver said Cooper would sink like a stone, and that the parachute would do very little. I don't think we talked about the money bag, I might contact him again. My assumption is the money bag would come loose at impact.

How does the diver think the money got on Tina Bar?

Dredge. He's not a Cooperite like the rest of us, however he read parts of my book before it was published. He believes Tosaw's theory, that Cooper entered the Columbia when 305 passed over the river on the traditional FP

R99--

"Sink like a stone" was obviously hyperbole.

I respect the math calculations, but I have to trust a guy who fishes bodies out of the Mississippi river on a weekly basis. The Mississippi has a greater elevation change at the Twin Cities than the Columbia does at Portland, so current should be more of a factor there (and not to mention parkas and heavy clothing Minnesotans wear in winter), but my guy says it doesn't make much of a difference. Their search patterns are a product of the depth of the water. Even if we allow for a ton of error, that still puts Cooper's body at the bottom of the river within a few hundred feet of where it entered the water.

If what you are saying above is correct, then Tosaw and everyone else should have been searching for Cooper in the Columbia River and east of Portland.  And if Cooper entered the Columbia east of Portland, he or whatever came loose from him would have been in the shipping channel on the Oregon side of the river when it went by the Tina Bar area.  The Columbia makes almost a 90 degree turn to the north on the west side of Portland and anything floating (or on the bottom) of the river is going to end up in that shipping channel after making that turn.  Also, keep in mind that the shipping channel between Portland and the Pacific was dredged after the Mount St. Helen's explosion.

Why not ask the money where it came from and how, and when?

Everything else is speculation.  ;)

I'll bet 377 had already done that.

Ive never heard him say he had his bill(s) tested ?  I have heard him say he was willing to have his bill tested.
[/b]

TK has my bill and has run some tests on it. I even gave him permission to do some destructive testing if it might help, hoping for as small a destroyed sample as possible. Science FIRST!

I'll leave it to Tom to report his results.

377

Any timeline for a report?

Any information ?
« Last Edit: January 23, 2020, 03:03:34 PM by georger »
 

Offline Tom Kaye

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4581 on: January 24, 2020, 10:43:43 AM »
Hi All,

Well I thought 377 wanted to investigate the bill findings further so I didn't post. Now I see he has left it up to me.

I was able to sample several spots on the bill including a small piece from another bill (I think, it could have been from this bill too). I put them all under the electron microscope looking for anything unusual. There were a variety of diatoms as expected. The most unusual thing was these "hair pin" looking things that I have no idea what they are. Elemental analysis says they are made from silica like other diatoms. Seems like some kind of diatom would make the most sense but I could not find anything like them on Google. Maybe the forum can work on it.  Besides that nothing earth shaking but maybe the hair pins will lead us in a new direction.

Since the forum will only allow for a couple pics I have linked a dropbox folder with a bunch of them here:
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Offline Tom Kaye

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4582 on: January 24, 2020, 10:45:39 AM »
More pics. Hummm can't seem to get more than one at a time up. See the link.

PS we never did any "structural damage" testing or investigation into the money.

Tom Kaye
« Last Edit: January 24, 2020, 10:46:55 AM by Tom Kaye »
 

Offline 377

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4583 on: January 24, 2020, 12:05:56 PM »
I have done image match searches and can’t find any good matches for those so called hairpins. They look more like cotter pins to me.

Bruce, might they be nano tech components from the alien surgeons who operated on those cows at T Bar?

377
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4584 on: January 24, 2020, 01:25:11 PM »
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I have done image match searches and can’t find any good matches for those so called hairpins. They look more like cotter pins to me.

Bruce, might they be nano tech components from the alien surgeons who operated on those cows at T Bar?

377

No need for aliens just yet.  Aren't bills printed on some type of paper that includes cloth threads?  Are these hairpins, or cotter pins, on the surface of the bill or are they in the paper itself?
 

Offline DovidFraiman

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4585 on: January 24, 2020, 01:43:07 PM »
What about this

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Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4586 on: January 24, 2020, 02:13:17 PM »
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More pics. Hummm can't seem to get more than one at a time up. See the link.

PS we never did any "structural damage" testing or investigation into the money.

Tom Kaye

looks like a diatom... there are a billion forms of diatoms in this area. They are wildly different structurally.

diatoms are silica shells ... Tom says: "Elemental analysis says they are made from silica like other diatoms."

Its a diatom.

Tom can probably confirm and name this Diatom by sending photos to the diatom people previously consulted at the Univ of Washington.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2020, 03:04:52 PM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4587 on: January 24, 2020, 02:18:03 PM »
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What about this

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no. not even remotely!  This is silica, not cellulose! All grasses are cellulose.  ;)
« Last Edit: January 24, 2020, 02:44:29 PM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4588 on: January 24, 2020, 03:21:14 PM »
Suggested:  Asterionella (Bacillariophyceae)  see Asterionella colony - assembles in star like formations -  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Thanks to pathologist Dr. Jill at Vancouver...  :chr2:

Asterionella is a genus of pennate freshwater diatoms. They are frequently found in star-shaped colonies of individuals.

*When found dis-articulated ... assemblage in a colony through full seasonal growth has not had time to occur, or assemblages have been broken due to . . .  ;)

Areas of Asterionella colonization are found in the following areas . . .  ;)

Sub genus colonizations are found in the following locations as of dates: . . .  ;)

Asterionella as a clock . . . dating ... ;)

What does the presence of Asterionella on these bills imply. . .
« Last Edit: January 24, 2020, 05:32:17 PM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4589 on: January 24, 2020, 04:01:05 PM »
Tom's hole bacterium may have also been identified some years ago - that's an interesting story.

will get to that tonight ...
« Last Edit: January 24, 2020, 04:04:24 PM by georger »