Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1178776 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4290 on: July 02, 2019, 05:16:39 PM »
I will have to check the Clark County website to verify the date of sat photo's of Caterpillar Island. this photo is from a different site taken in 1970. it's nothing like it is today. it's mainly a broken up sandbar with 90% of it visible if a person was dead in that area the body would be noticed rather quickly. one could probably be certain it was visited often by boaters, people fishing, camp fires etc.

This photo is watermarked.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4291 on: July 02, 2019, 09:45:22 PM »
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Georger, Please get back in touch with Loren and ask if the FBI agents searched Caterpillar Island for any evidence of Cooper.

That wing dam he mentions would have been a good place to check since it is obvious that the money bag, and maybe Cooper as well, was moving downstream.

The fragments were apparently in that state when they arrived at Tina Bar.  So where do you (Georger) suggest the bills were when they became fragments?  Were they under sand somewhere else, under water somewhere else, or exposed to the air with frequent episodes of wetting and drying?

No. Caterpillar Island was not searched, during the excavation. Other people did searches on Cat Isle but not the FBI and apparently not Tosaw. Ive never seen a report of Tosaw searching "on" Cat Island, near it yes, off shore yes, but not "on" the island per se.

When and how bills were reduced to fragments - is an important question. Did they arrive as fragments? Were fragments created in-situ somehow?  That is one of the reasons I want more lab tests! Isotope Tests on bills, fragments, and sediments where the various fragments were collected. I want an approx isotopic date when that money got buried at T-Bar. The date of deposit might correlate with a specific event ... like dredging in 74.  Those basic tests should have been done clear back in 1980.
[/quote]

Another question for Loren since he was in the Portland/Vancouver area during the time frame of interest here.  Does he know why the deletions were made to the Seattle ATC transcripts?
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4292 on: July 02, 2019, 10:12:13 PM »
If you think the money got on T-bar from Caterpillar island by dredge sand these three photo's show how the island was filled in over the years. the only years that could be pulled were 1968, 1978 and 1984. they show 1974 but it's in pieces and the bottom portion is marked 1968. looks similar to 78.

The photo is too large so I put it in my Google Drive..

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Offline Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4293 on: July 03, 2019, 01:01:13 AM »
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If you think the money got on T-bar from Caterpillar island by dredge sand these three photo's show how the island was filled in over the years. the only years that could be pulled were 1968, 1978 and 1984. they show 1974 but it's in pieces and the bottom portion is marked 1968. looks similar to 78.

The photo is too large so I put it in my Google Drive..

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I doubt if any dredge sands were involved in getting the money to Tina Bar.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4294 on: July 03, 2019, 04:56:48 PM »
My point was that the dredging could of been a reason for the money to find Caterpillar Island. wasn't much of the island in the early 70's. broken up with less coverage unlike we see it today. Cooper bailing around the area would have about the same odds of landing on the Fazio's front door of the business?
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4295 on: July 03, 2019, 11:56:02 PM »
Made these up -
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4296 on: July 04, 2019, 12:16:01 AM »
Most of the island was open with not much room for hiding a body. today most of the island is covered in trees...it appears to start taking shape in the late 70's.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4297 on: July 04, 2019, 04:14:57 PM »
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Most of the island was open with not much room for hiding a body. today most of the island is covered in trees...it appears to start taking shape in the late 70's.

We dont have a firm understanding about how fragments were created. We cant even convince the right people that fragments even exist!   Either fragments were created as part of the process that brought money to Tina Bar (dredging) or fragments were created by erosive forces, stirring, currents, mixing, aging, ... and none of those fragments conform to the idea someone was sitting clipping corners off of bills! That idea is plain silly.  :nono:
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4298 on: July 04, 2019, 04:28:03 PM »
I just tossed the idea out there after seeing how bad the island was back then. the sand came from somewhere. I don't believe it migrated over to T-bar or Cooper is lying somewhere on Cat. Island.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4299 on: July 04, 2019, 11:58:52 PM »
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I just tossed the idea out there after seeing how bad the island was back then. the sand came from somewhere. I don't believe it migrated over to T-bar or Cooper is lying somewhere on Cat. Island.

If Cooper bailed near Orchards or even hit the Columbia at night ... how in blazes did his loot get to Tina Bar, unless he personally threw the bag into the Columbia!
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4300 on: July 05, 2019, 12:21:51 AM »
Simple, Jo Weber said Duane threw the paper bag over the bridge near the Red Carpet Inn, or when Duane (aka Cooper) parked near Tbar taking a shovel with him and returning and driving off. I don't know why everyone makes this so difficult  :rofl:
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4301 on: July 05, 2019, 01:45:28 AM »
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Simple, Jo Weber said Duane threw the paper bag over the bridge near the Red Carpet Inn, or when Duane (aka Cooper) parked near Tbar taking a shovel with him and returning and driving off. I don't know why everyone makes this so difficult  :rofl:

Even if the money bag floated on the Washougal and Columbia water surfaces all the way from its splash down point, it would not end up at Tina Bar.  It would end up on the west side of the Columbia River when it went around that curve from west to north.  And there is no reasonable way for it to get to the east side of the river and Tina Bar.

The shipping channel at Tina Bar is on the west side of the river is dredged to a 40 foot depth.  This depth is presumably measured from a nominal surface elevation of the river.  And that surface is probably only about two or three feet above sea level.

Eric recently stated in one of his videos that the bottom of the Columbia drops off rapidly just a few feet off shore from Tina Bar.  There is no way that the money bag could go uphill if it was under water.

So my guess is that the money bag, maybe with Cooper attached, came from a location very close to Tina Bar and was actually moving downhill at that time.  This means that it arrived during a substantial flooding episode and started several feet (maybe 10 or 12) higher than the elevation at which it was found. 
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4302 on: July 05, 2019, 02:49:31 PM »
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Simple, Jo Weber said Duane threw the paper bag over the bridge near the Red Carpet Inn, or when Duane (aka Cooper) parked near Tbar taking a shovel with him and returning and driving off. I don't know why everyone makes this so difficult  :rofl:

Even if the money bag floated on the Washougal and Columbia water surfaces all the way from its splash down point, it would not end up at Tina Bar.  It would end up on the west side of the Columbia River when it went around that curve from west to north.  And there is no reasonable way for it to get to the east side of the river and Tina Bar.

The shipping channel at Tina Bar is on the west side of the river is dredged to a 40 foot depth.  This depth is presumably measured from a nominal surface elevation of the river.  And that surface is probably only about two or three feet above sea level.

Eric recently stated in one of his videos that the bottom of the Columbia drops off rapidly just a few feet off shore from Tina Bar.  There is no way that the money bag could go uphill if it was under water.

So my guess is that the money bag, maybe with Cooper attached, came from a location very close to Tina Bar and was actually moving downhill at that time.  This means that it arrived during a substantial flooding episode and started several feet (maybe 10 or 12) higher than the elevation at which it was found.

While I agree with your logic, no evidence of it is reported until the Ingram find in 1980. It's always hidden from sight by sand according to every report. Then only after two kids are poking around with sticks disturbing sand, is a 'hump' or an 'object' noticed which the kids then explore further ... then "Hey Daddy come look at this" and Cooper money is discovered.

TK comes along and disagrees with Palmer's reading/dating of the strata! Neither TK or Palmer do anything to try and actually date any strata found - in a lab!

In addition to that, we have no erosion model or erosion/high water model for Tina Bar! We know more about Howard Hughes' girl friends than we know about Tina Bar!

When is anyone going to start taking this seriously?   :rofl:
« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 03:01:11 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4303 on: July 05, 2019, 03:38:52 PM »
If we use Palmer's logic would we find the 1974 dredge layer today with core samples?
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4304 on: July 05, 2019, 04:05:10 PM »
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If we use Palmer's logic would we find the 1974 dredge layer today with core samples?

Tom says "no" and I tend to agree due to erosion.

Palmer did show that all money resided in an (a) upper active layer and (b) a cross bedded layer, down to a depth of 2 feet. Palmer's dredge layer begins below that at 2-4ft.

Tom has never said anything about layers a and b above so I have no idea what he does with them, after his revision of the Palmer Dredging layer. The money came from layers (a) and (b) no matter who's interpretation is correct. The only issue is what section of time does the cross bedded layer represent?  My guess is, layer a the upper active payer represents 1-2 years, possibly back to 1978. Tom has never commented at all on the cross bedded layer! I cant even guess what Tom thinks because he has never addressed this core issue.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 04:09:50 PM by georger »