Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tina Bar Money Find  (Read 413022 times)

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4245 on: May 29, 2019, 03:08:36 PM »
The tragedy of the money:   is that the Court split the money up between competing interests! That decision meant that the Justice Dept lost one of its central bodies of evidence in the DB Cooper case. Imagine this happening in any other major case - say the Unabomber case - a ruling that suddenly required that the Unabomber's manifesto will be split up into pages and fragments of pages, and could not be used as evidence, but could only be sold to the highest bidders? That would be a scandal of major proportions!    But that is exactly what the Court did with the Tina Bar money find in the Cooper case, thanks to competing interests and their lawyers (Tosaw, Ingrams, Insurance Com., SeaFirst Bank, NWOrient ... all vs the FBI and the US Justice Dept!).

So far as we think we know, the only lab work ever completed on the Tia Bar bills and sands, was an attempt to lift finger prints off the bills - a vain, idiotic, and destructive goal by anyone's accounting. Some cursory sand examination was conducted. Nothing more, I guess? The FBI won't tell us, or maybe they will tell Crown Publishing's Four Star General, Geoffrey Gray who wants his own "Cooper bill" to frame or sell !!?

No lab work at the excavation or on any of the products of the excavation, I guess?

And today Ulis and Flyjack do their impersonations and flap their gums about 'what the Ingram money find is and means' = without having done any lab work either! 

BRING IN THE CLOWNS! GREED MAY HAVE DESTROYED THE COOPER CASE FOR ALL TIME!
« Last Edit: May 29, 2019, 03:43:53 PM by georger »
 

Offline 377

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4246 on: May 29, 2019, 04:07:11 PM »
Good points Georger. Very unusual treatment of evidence to say the very least. Never seen anything like it in a major unsolved case.

I've volunteered my Cooper twenty for testing. TK is going to see what he can find. If he can get McCrone interested I'd let them test it as well.
I realize some testing requires sample destruction. I just asked that they keep the size of those samples as small as possible. 

The chain of custody is all screwed up but there still may be relevant material and clues that can be teased out.

Some are surprised I'd permit any destructive testing of my Cooper bill, but I am a pragmatic engineer. Science must come before sentiment, right?

377
« Last Edit: May 29, 2019, 04:15:27 PM by 377 »
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4247 on: May 29, 2019, 04:33:09 PM »
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Good points Georger. Very unusual treatment of evidence to say the very least. Never seen anything like it in a major unsolved case.

I've volunteered my Cooper twenty for testing. TK is going to see what he can find. If he can get McCrone interested I'd let them test it as well.
I realize some testing requires sample destruction. I just asked that they keep the size of those samples as small as possible. 

The chain of custody is all screwed up but there still may be relevant material and clues that can be teased out.

Some are surprised I'd permit any destructive testing of my Cooper bill, but I am a pragmatic engineer. Science must come before sentiment, right?

377

Nothing that can be done now except for a sweeping judgement by the Supreme Court ordering all Cooper money to be placed back in the hands of the Justice Dept ... which aint going to happen.

That might not help? Were all of the bills were contaminated by silver nitrate fingerprint testing? It was a pointless destructive test. The lab does what somebody in authority tells the to do! I dont know - maybe somebody could have ordered the bills be submerged in water to see if they swam - the Witch Test? Bruce could channel the bills to see if they talk! .........................................  the whole thing is stuff even Cave People 40,000 years ago would not do! 
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4248 on: May 29, 2019, 04:37:18 PM »
As long as I am here ... Flyjack says all of the holes seen are from termites! He is sure. He says this is true!!! He says the bills were in some house in Portland? or Vancouver? ... somewhere where his suspect visited or lived or hung out or whatever......... thus the holes must be termite eaten holes from his suspects house!

OK. Where is FJ's lab work to prove it?  :rofl:

I think we are supposed to take this as true .... because FlyJack the Immortal says its true.   :rofl:

Shamalaka bizz bizz femerdoli et spiritus sancti mosal tov. Shana et schmi l'haiym! (That is a curse now on these fragments - do not touch or come near!)
« Last Edit: May 29, 2019, 04:40:41 PM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4249 on: May 29, 2019, 11:48:28 PM »
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....Bruce could channel the bills to see if they talk! ...
 

Interesting idea, Georger! I might just try that. Or at least remote viewing it...

Along those lines, I just got the book Phenomena - The Secret History of the US Government's Investigation into Extrasensory Perception and Psychokenesis. The author is Annie Jacobsen, and it was a finalist for the Pulitzer in 2017.

Jacobsen is also a former investigative journalist for the Los Angeles Magazine, and has written a number of books on similar governmental activities, such as Area 51 and Operation Paperclip. Her body of work has made her a New York Times bestselling author.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4250 on: May 29, 2019, 11:49:28 PM »
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Good points Georger. Very unusual treatment of evidence to say the very least. Never seen anything like it in a major unsolved case.

I've volunteered my Cooper twenty for testing. TK is going to see what he can find. If he can get McCrone interested I'd let them test it as well.
I realize some testing requires sample destruction. I just asked that they keep the size of those samples as small as possible. 

The chain of custody is all screwed up but there still may be relevant material and clues that can be teased out.

Some are surprised I'd permit any destructive testing of my Cooper bill, but I am a pragmatic engineer. Science must come before sentiment, right?

377

Nothing that can be done now except for a sweeping judgement by the Supreme Court ordering all Cooper money to be placed back in the hands of the Justice Dept ... which aint going to happen.

That might not help? Were all of the bills were contaminated by silver nitrate fingerprint testing? It was a pointless destructive test. The lab does what somebody in authority tells the to do! I dont know - maybe somebody could have ordered the bills be submerged in water to see if they swam - the Witch Test? Bruce could channel the bills to see if they talk! .........................................  the whole thing is stuff even Cave People 40,000 years ago would not do!

Or at least a legal request to examine the bills, ala a FOIA approach.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4251 on: May 30, 2019, 02:13:17 AM »
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Good points Georger. Very unusual treatment of evidence to say the very least. Never seen anything like it in a major unsolved case.

I've volunteered my Cooper twenty for testing. TK is going to see what he can find. If he can get McCrone interested I'd let them test it as well.
I realize some testing requires sample destruction. I just asked that they keep the size of those samples as small as possible. 

The chain of custody is all screwed up but there still may be relevant material and clues that can be teased out.

Some are surprised I'd permit any destructive testing of my Cooper bill, but I am a pragmatic engineer. Science must come before sentiment, right?

377

Nothing that can be done now except for a sweeping judgement by the Supreme Court ordering all Cooper money to be placed back in the hands of the Justice Dept ... which aint going to happen.

That might not help? Were all of the bills were contaminated by silver nitrate fingerprint testing? It was a pointless destructive test. The lab does what somebody in authority tells the to do! I dont know - maybe somebody could have ordered the bills be submerged in water to see if they swam - the Witch Test? Bruce could channel the bills to see if they talk! .........................................  the whole thing is stuff even Cave People 40,000 years ago would not do!

Or at least a legal request to examine the bills, ala a FOIA approach.

Just convince one of the parties holding bills to gve up their money and folders for examination.

With Ingram its all about money and fame. How much for Ingram to turn over his bills for testing; then they are returned to him as they were!? Let's start the bidding at $10K .... $50k .... $100k?  $200k? $1 million? Would Ingram even be a trustworthy partner? Somebody would have to pay all legal fees associated with such an arrangement. Ingram has no money.

The insurance company. Do they still have them and the evidence folders they were in?

Say the world was about to end through an asteroid strike - would Cooper bill owners cooperate then! ?     :rofl:

« Last Edit: May 30, 2019, 03:38:08 AM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4252 on: May 30, 2019, 02:20:48 AM »
Here we go again with Flyjack and his termite hole theory. No proof. Just his claim. His word is his bond because he is a genius. He wont even acknowledge Tom did a bacterial test! He wont acknowledge or even mention Tom's work at all. With FJ it's either 'termite holes' or 'the highway'. No other options.

This is how fair and open discussion of EVIDENCE on Cooper forums works!    >:D



« Last Edit: May 30, 2019, 03:36:54 AM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4253 on: June 01, 2019, 04:12:33 AM »
I want to challenge Flyjack or anyone else, to show us any photo of Cooper bills that clearly show evidence of termite infestation. 

There are thousands of photos of termite damaged paper available on the web.

Exhibit A attached is a photo FJ already posted months ago he says shows termite damage to Cooper bills. The termite damage pattern is his top photo is not replicated in the Cooper bill photos he attached. His top photo is not even a Cooper bill!

In advance of this challenge I disallow Flyjack from posting the second image (Exhibit B) of a vintage $20 supposedly eaten by termites, which once was available at the CBC and Google.  The two twenties in this photo are not Cooper twenties either, in any event. Flyjack may or may-not have already posted this second photo before, in some other post somewhere - I am unsure.

Good luck.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2019, 04:29:02 AM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4254 on: June 01, 2019, 02:23:33 PM »
What is the origin of this photo?

Is it a cut from a video frame - possibly a fragment of two bills found together during the excavation at Tina Bar ... broadcast by CBC News or the KATU video? (Fkyjack is Canadian he says).

This photo can be found here top left at Google images:  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

The Google link for this photo above goes here, to CBC News, : You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

What is the serial number ?   Is this number on the Cooper list of bills?

Did Flyjack ever post his photo to this forum or anywhere else?

Most importantly: is this a never-seen-before fragment of Cooper money being shown by somebody during the excavation at Tina Bar in 1980?
« Last Edit: June 01, 2019, 05:53:50 PM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4255 on: June 04, 2019, 03:38:34 PM »
Fklyjack conjectures, but was not there! :

"Kaye found silver nitrate on the bills and assumed it was used for fingerprinting only because an FBI agent said it was in general use in the 70's, the FBI never admitted that it was used on TBAR bills, it is possible the SN was applied to mark the bills prior to being given to Cooper. Research shows that SN is not typically used on "wet" paper and rare in 1980."

Everything Flyjack says is historically untrue and conjecture on his part. I dont know about Flyjack or Tom Kaye but I first learned about silver nitrate in the 1950s ... and earlier in the aftermath of WWII.

Flyjack can read the full history of this matter when it is published some time in the future, perhaps by the Smithsonian. Or he can go back and read the thread at Dropzone where he now posts his rubbish!

Flyjack is a troll and he doesn't know what he is talking about.   

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*ps:  I am going to stop responding to these trolls. It is impossible to keep up with. And it only complicates - everything.  /b] 
« Last Edit: June 04, 2019, 03:59:11 PM by georger »
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4256 on: June 06, 2019, 02:03:55 AM »
Lets handle this latest fiasco and get beyond it asap:

FJ says: There is evidence that the SN was not from fingerprinting. I have evidence. It is possible, but it could have been from marking/spraying the money bundles with an SN solution prior to giving them to Cooper. These bills are inconsistent with SN fingerprinting....   partial/random staining.

Blevins agrees saying: It is also possible some of the silver nitrate was washed off after the Ingram family got hold of them. There are reports that they tried to wash the bills in their kitchen sink, prior to calling the authorities.

Both parties above seem to be clueless as to the hazardous/poisonous nature of silver nitrate! Are these people saying somebody was trying to harm or injure DB Cooper (and anyone else touching SN coated bills including NWA personnel!)?

Was Tina Mucklow checked for SN contamination at a hospital? Were the Ingrams taken to a hospital and examined for SN contamination? Was anyone else involved in the money chain of custody examined for contamination> Did they report any reactions? Who authorised the use of silver nitrate as Flyjack claims?

What is this "evidence" FJ claims to have? He says Georger is a liar in this matter, whatever that's supposed to mean!  >:D

Who did the silver nitrate coating of the bills prior to them being bagged and delivered to Cooper? Where was that done?  :o 

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Are Flyjack and Blevins trying to convey to the public that silver nitrate is an innocuous substance safe to play with!?

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« Last Edit: June 06, 2019, 02:57:04 AM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4257 on: June 06, 2019, 04:06:18 PM »
I spoke with several agents today who worked the Cooper case.

They say the Cooper money was not marked in any way prior to being sent to the airport for Cooper. Only the serial numbers were recorded, at the bank.

'The Cooper money was treated like any other "extortion package"  - no dyes or powders or bait pack was used. Only serial numbers were recorded. Silver nitrate was never used to mark money in extortion packages. You can't use silver nitrate to mark money. You cant use silver nitrate twice, to mark money and then to finger print the same money later. The silver nitrate process is a very slow process. When we did mark money in special circumstances we used a fluorescent powder which is invisible to the eye, but even applying that is time consuming so packages with marked money were usually part of an extortion package prepared ahead of time.'

'The Ingram money was sent to the lab for finger printing and they used the silver nitrate method there. That is the only time silver nitrate was part of the Cooper case.' 
« Last Edit: June 06, 2019, 04:06:39 PM by georger »
 
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Online Darren

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4258 on: June 08, 2019, 12:23:59 PM »
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I spoke with several agents today who worked the Cooper case.

Who did you speak to?
The Cooper Vortex - A Podcast about DB Cooper - Available on most podcast apps
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Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4259 on: June 08, 2019, 02:02:00 PM »
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I spoke with several agents today who worked the Cooper case.

Who did you speak to?

DS, AL, GP, and SP.

Apparently FJ or DB are now saying TK (TomKaye) said 'the FBI had other liquid solutions they could use for marking money'. Tom or Shutter didnt name the liquids they claim the FBI used? That is not the information I have - I have no idea what Shutter and Kaye are talking about if Shutter even reported this correctly. This story is getting all mixed up! So lets back up and try and make some sense of this ... as best we can with Shutter boycotting his own forum!

When the money in "Extortion packages" (a formal term) is marked, it is always marked with a dry substance, not liquid. That's the information I have. There are classes on how to prepare extortion packages. The preferred substance used at Portland and Seattle in 1971, was apparently dry fluorescent powder or perhaps a bait package (explodes or diffuses). Silver nitrate is not one of the options. Flyjack is saying SN was one of the options the FBI used to mark money. No agent I know ever saw that happen! They say FJ is just wrong.

The agents I spoke with who worked the Cooper case say the 'extortion package' given to Cooper did not contain marked bills, period. The bills given to Cooper were NOT marked with SN, as FJ has been suggesting. After the Ingram find and two submissions of bills by different Ingrams, and after the Tina Bar excavation was complete, at least three and perhaps four submissions were made to the Lab, all with requests for finger print analysis, and the method used was SN testing. All submissions were sent to the ATTN: FBI LABORATORY, DOCUMENT SECTION, FBI IDENTIFICATION DIVISION, LATENT FINGERPRINT SECTION. The agents say everything was documented and the lab would have documented the testing methods used internally, in its notes.

One of FJ's points is that there is no documentation! Just because he hasn't seen documentation does not mean it never happened and does not exist! Somewhere there are lab notes that document everything.

FJ's other point is there is uneven staining on the bills. He says the Fazios and the Ingrams commented about "blackened bills" even before the FBI had the money to do any lab work. So far as I know the Fazios never saw the money at all. When did the Fazios see the money? They didn't even know what was happening until the FBI showed up at their door and by then the money was already gone and in the hands of the Portland Office. The Fazios never saw the money at all, to describe it!

As for the Ingrams, Brian Ingram told me his parents said some of the money was "darkened" whatever that means. FJ claims they said the money was 'blackened'.  Brian says his parents tried to clean 'some of the money' for presentation to a bank the next day. He says 'they might have used bleach in the cleaning process' ? Might have used. FJ says they did use bleach! Flyjack has an agenda he is feeding. That is not what actually happened or what was said by the people Flyjack is now speaking for!

Im not even sure of the dates in this matter. There are communications with, or submissions to the lab on 2/13, 2/14, 2/20, 2/25, 2/28, and possibly more! At least three submissions to the Lab possibly four. The original bills turned in by Harold, two or more later bills turned in by Crystal Ingram, and fragments found at the excavation which Kaye says don't exist! Every LAB communication from the Lab back to Portland or Seattle confirms finger print testing was done, but it does not specify the method used - that data would be in the internal notes of the LAB itself.

That is about all I can say on the spur of the moment, trying to answer FJ's and Ulis' questions some of which are un-answerable questions in the first place.  These are questions only a commission with full access to all of the documents could answer!       

This whole thing is just a tempest in a teapot cooked up by the people at Bruce Smith's tell-all forum! There is general consensus about that.

If these people want the FULL Palmer report Galen Cook claimed he was given by Curtis Eng, let these people go to Galen Cook for their answers.  Or possibly Geoff Gray. Or Blevins. Maybe Flyjack's next claim will be that he now has the FULLER VERSION OF THE PALMER REPORT - too!?  Who knows. ???   

 
« Last Edit: June 08, 2019, 05:18:25 PM by georger »