Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tina Bar Money Find  (Read 391974 times)

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4215 on: January 23, 2019, 02:37:40 PM »
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At your website you say: "on February 11, 1980, the day after the money was discovered, the FBI showed up to ask him (Fazio) to identify whose property a certain spot on the beach was located …

Did Fazio say what time of day this was and what FBI office the agents were from? Was Ingram with them? How had the FBI obtained the location and which FBI office showed up - Portland or Vacouver?


Simply put Georger, I do not know.

Richard did not tell me what office the FBI agents were from or whether specific individuals were there. He stated that they showed up one day and asked him to identify the property owner with no information given as to why they were interested. He concluded, the next day the cavalry (my words) showed up and told him what was going on. That's it.

Thanks Eric. You have broken new ground with this. If he says it was the next day the "cavalry" showed up then he is talking about Monday the 11th.  ;D

Could you call him back and ask him what time of day it was .... and from what office the agents were from  (Portland or Vancouver) if he remembers? Also ask him if some guy named Ingram was with them ?

I will call him. Obviously I cannot speak for Richard at this time, however, I would be surprised if he9 remembers that degree of detail.

He will surely know if it was morning, noon, or night ... one would hope! He's got to be fairly old at this point?

Thanks for the effort!!! 8)

In response to Richard Fazio’s age, I’m reading a newspaper article written by Al Thomas of the Columbian dated June, 2013. Al Thomas states that Richard Fazio is the youngest of the Fazio brothers at 64 years old. So that puts Richard’s age at 69 or 70 depending on his month of birth. In other words he’s just a youngster still ! 😜

Thanks Kermit! ...
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4216 on: January 27, 2019, 02:09:07 AM »
And Al might be a year or two older than Richard.
 

Offline Kermit

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4217 on: January 27, 2019, 04:29:19 PM »
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And Al might be a year or two older than Richard.

Al Fazio graduated from Central Catholic in Portland in 1954 and is listed as 82. Richard Fazio is 69 and also graduated from Central Catholic. My younger Brother also graduated from Central Catholic in 1967 and thinks Richard was also in that graduating class but Richard could have been a year older than him. My brother will double check his yearbook.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4218 on: January 27, 2019, 05:18:20 PM »
Wow. Al has aged well, as they say.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4219 on: March 18, 2019, 11:31:23 PM »
NEW!

The FBI did not consult with professional salvage divers or commercial diving experts in 1980 who had an intimate working knowledge of the Columbia, like the backs of their hands. Several of these people drove their boats to Tina Bar to watch the excavation in progress. Tosaw consulted with several of these people in the 1980s but he dismissed some of their advice and forged ahead, on his own. Want to dive the Columbia River and search for Cooper artifacts? Consult with professional salvage divers who will advise you of the best time of year to try . . . and where. Good luck!
 :chr2:   
 

Offline 377

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4220 on: March 19, 2019, 01:12:50 PM »
Side scan sonar would have been the best solution. Look at the imagery details.

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377
 
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4221 on: March 19, 2019, 03:13:46 PM »
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Side scan sonar would have been the best solution. Look at the imagery details.

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377

None of this was available in 1980! Or in 1971. You are 48 years late.

According to people who know the Columbia, the bottom changes so frequently (like shifting sand dunes in a dessert) anything from the Cooper era is likely gone or covered in feet of shifting sand. Its an unstable bottom so side scan results one day will be gone in a week! Those  facts were conveyed to the FBI in 1980 by professionals who know the river. Those facts were conveyed to Tosaw but he chose to go it alone - he hired younger people who were in need of work who would take his instructions, regardless of the merit of his ideas! A poll of salvage professionals showed they favor the dredging scenario over any other means of conveyance of Cooper money to Tina Bar - especially if the FBI flight path is correct.     
« Last Edit: March 19, 2019, 03:51:06 PM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4222 on: March 19, 2019, 03:48:27 PM »
NEW

The hydrologist who brought up the Washougal River never said the Cooper money had come from the Washougal. He simply said the Washougal River was the only tributary capable of delivering objects to the Columbia, when it was in flood stage! 

Himmelsbach then morphed this into naming the Washougal as the source of the Cooper money at Tina Bar. Other agents disagreed. 
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4223 on: March 19, 2019, 05:00:44 PM »
Himmelsbach told me definitively that Bill Rataczak had told him that 305 was flying over the Washougal.

When I confronted Bill on that statement, he hedged, and said that 305 was most likely east of Victor 23, due to the wind...

Don't forget that Larry Carr was a big Washougal Wash-down theorist for a few years. Doubt he feels that way now, though.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2019, 05:01:51 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline 377

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4224 on: March 19, 2019, 05:07:19 PM »
Georger wrote (about side scan sonar): "None of this was available in 1980! Or in 1971. You are 48 years late."

Wrong G.  "Commercial side scan sonars, typically operating in the tens or hundreds of Kilohertz, reached the marketplace in the 1960s. The SHADOWGRAPH series led to the Navy’s AN/AQS-14 and French DUBM-series mine detection sonars, and the active tow vehicles of the C-MK-1 served as test platforms for the first synthetic aperture sonars (SAS) fielded at USNMDL (now the Naval Surface Warfare Center Panama City Division) during the 1970s.

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377
 

Offline 377

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4225 on: March 19, 2019, 05:11:15 PM »
Bruce wrote: "Don't forget that Larry Carr was a big Washougal Wash-down theorist for a few years. Doubt he feels that way now, though."

Didn't Jerry once claim that a few of the labeled ping pong balls he released in the Washougal were recovered near T Bar? I can't see how that is possible but perhaps floods make new paths.

377
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4226 on: March 19, 2019, 05:48:26 PM »
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Georger wrote (about side scan sonar): "None of this was available in 1980! Or in 1971. You are 48 years late."

Wrong G.  "Commercial side scan sonars, typically operating in the tens or hundreds of Kilohertz, reached the marketplace in the 1960s. The SHADOWGRAPH series led to the Navy’s AN/AQS-14 and French DUBM-series mine detection sonars, and the active tow vehicles of the C-MK-1 served as test platforms for the first synthetic aperture sonars (SAS) fielded at USNMDL (now the Naval Surface Warfare Center Panama City Division) during the 1970s.

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377

Same resolution as today's side scan devices - and software? I doubt it. For one thing the software and imaging devices didnt even exist. Ive seen bathemetry done with 70s technology and it wasnt anything like what is available today. 

Doppler Digital Imaging at any wavelength didnt even exist in the 70's! 
« Last Edit: March 19, 2019, 06:03:33 PM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4227 on: March 19, 2019, 05:56:42 PM »
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Himmelsbach told me definitively that Bill Rataczak had told him that 305 was flying over the Washougal.

When I confronted Bill on that statement, he hedged, and said that 305 was most likely east of Victor 23, due to the wind...

Don't forget that Larry Carr was a big Washougal Wash-down theorist for a few years. Doubt he feels that way now, though.

I  wouldnt call Carr a big Washougal fan ... and he certainly wasnt for very long. JT had everyone swayed but that did not last. Carr was merely going with the political flow at the time and it didnt last a month! Sluggo was involved in that and had Carr's ear. The Washougal theory was nothing more than a passing Politically Correct phase.

It was the hydrologist who came up with this! Not anyone in the FBI. One FBI agent (in charge?) jumped on board. The hydrologist who started the whole thing did a quick turn-around but it was already too late. The hydrologist NEVER said the money had come down the Washougal, as a fact. He said it was just one option out of several.

So, why did Rat turn around and tell Tosaw to look near Hayden Island (up to TBar) ? Tosaw is on record as having said XYZ told him to look .... where he looked! Thats a  long way from the Washougal and Troutdale!

 
 

Offline 377

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4228 on: March 19, 2019, 06:05:00 PM »
I saw commercial side scan sonar imagery in 1972 that was quite impressive. Sure, it's a lot better now but the early towed array SSS systems were not as bad as you seem to imagine Georger. Motion compensation, digital signal processing and image processing algorithms have made today's SSS images look like monochrome photographs but the early models without all that did a decent job.

Look at the results achieved using 1960s commercial SSS: During these developmental years, Doc (Edgerton) and Klein participated in many dramatic demonstrations of the search abilities of side scan sonar. In 1967, Klein assisted pioneer underwater archaeologist George F. Bass in the discovery of a 2,000-year-old Roman shipwreck off southwest Turkey—the first ancient shipwreck found using remote sensing. Later in 1967, Doc helped locate the 16th century HMS Mary Rose—now a major archaeological exhibit in Portsmouth, England. Both of these discoveries were the first significant finds of historical vessels made with side scan sonar.

377
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4229 on: March 19, 2019, 11:28:24 PM »
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I saw commercial side scan sonar imagery in 1972 that was quite impressive. Sure, it's a lot better now but the early towed array SSS systems were not as bad as you seem to imagine Georger. Motion compensation, digital signal processing and image processing algorithms have made today's SSS images look like monochrome photographs but the early models without all that did a decent job.

Look at the results achieved using 1960s commercial SSS: During these developmental years, Doc (Edgerton) and Klein participated in many dramatic demonstrations of the search abilities of side scan sonar. In 1967, Klein assisted pioneer underwater archaeologist George F. Bass in the discovery of a 2,000-year-old Roman shipwreck off southwest Turkey—the first ancient shipwreck found using remote sensing. Later in 1967, Doc helped locate the 16th century HMS Mary Rose—now a major archaeological exhibit in Portsmouth, England. Both of these discoveries were the first significant finds of historical vessels made with side scan sonar.

377

Did Tosaw employ sss? Did anyone? Tosaw hired one Blake Payne who had a newer boat equipped with a fish finder-depth sounder.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2019, 03:33:43 AM by georger »