Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tina Bar Money Find  (Read 374660 times)

Offline EU

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4185 on: November 28, 2018, 11:58:42 AM »
I have a theory.

The money that DBC received measured 11" X 12" X 6 1/2". This means that the volume it occupied was 858 cubic inches as a block with no dead space.

The ransom was delivered in a canvas bank bag. I believe it was actually a canvas bank bag typically used to carry coins. There appears to be four standard size canvas bank bags, the largest being 14" X 28" (The ransom would have to have been delivered in the largest bag because the others are too small). This means that when stretched out to it's optimal volume it can accommodate roughly 1360 cubic inches. The latter is an estimate based upon my working with a similar bag.

This means that once the money was placed in the bag there was at best no more than 500 cubic inches of unused space left at the top. This will equate to approximately 8" of bag protruding above the top of the ransom pile. Furthermore, the diameter of the bag at the top is roughly 8 1/2".

What this means is that if one attempts to cinch the top of the bag at the top with it full of the ransom there is no more than 4" of material to cinch. This is not enough to securely cinch the top of the bag. Therefore, Cooper had to remove some of the packets of twenties so that additional space was created and the bag could be properly cinched at the top with the shroud lines.

I believe it makes sense that these "removed" packets of twenties were then crammed into the dummy reserve. I spoke with 377 about this and he believes that there would be enough room to cram in some packets, although not many.

Perhaps--upon landing near Tena Bar--DBC buried the cinched-up canvas bank bag and placed the extra packets in the hole with the bank bag after extracting them from the dummy reserve. This would explain why some of the packets were separated from the bank bag. Then upon retrieval of the ransom, presumably at night, perhaps those separated packets--or at least three of them-- were left behind and reburied only to be unearthed eight years later.
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FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4186 on: November 28, 2018, 12:10:21 PM »
He could have used his pockets...

Would Cooper have tied the money bag and tied the full dummy chest chute to himself for few packets? There weren't D rings to properly attach.


If he emptied the dummy, why toss the contents.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2018, 12:11:17 PM by FLYJACK »
 

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4187 on: November 28, 2018, 12:42:46 PM »
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He could have used his pockets...

Would Cooper have tied the money bag and tied the full dummy chest chute to himself for few packets? There weren't D rings to properly attach.


If he emptied the dummy, why toss the contents.

Sure, he could have used his pockets. That said, we know he tried putting at least some of the ransom in a reserve. Makes sense that he stuck with his plan and put some of it in the reserve.

I do not believe he merely threw the dummy reserve out. After all, it's never been found. And, it would have been easier and safer to just leave it on the jet. In my mind he took the dummy reserve for a reason...securing a small portion of the ransom makes sense.

The contents of the dummy remained in the dummy. Why? Because if he removed them...which would have involved a lot of additional effort and cutting...it would then mean the dummy reserve had too much space inside. In fact, the bundles would have been tumbling around. Again, it makes sense to cram in a few packets (3,4, 8...whatever) into the dummy reserve. Also, the shroud lines in the dummy could have been used to repel from a tree if DBC landed in a tree (Sheridan discusses this in his book).
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FLYJACK

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4188 on: November 28, 2018, 01:40:09 PM »
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He could have used his pockets...

Would Cooper have tied the money bag and tied the full dummy chest chute to himself for few packets? There weren't D rings to properly attach.


If he emptied the dummy, why toss the contents.

Sure, he could have used his pockets. That said, we know he tried putting at least some of the ransom in a reserve. Makes sense that he stuck with his plan and put some of it in the reserve.

I do not believe he merely threw the dummy reserve out. After all, it's never been found. And, it would have been easier and safer to just leave it on the jet. In my mind he took the dummy reserve for a reason...securing a small portion of the ransom makes sense.

The contents of the dummy remained in the dummy. Why? Because if he removed them...which would have involved a lot of additional effort and cutting...it would then mean the dummy reserve had too much space inside. In fact, the bundles would have been tumbling around. Again, it makes sense to cram in a few packets (3,4, 8...whatever) into the dummy reserve. Also, the shroud lines in the dummy could have been used to repel from a tree if DBC landed in a tree (Sheridan discusses this in his book).

Anything is possible, it seems like too much work to tie the full dummy reserve on for a few packets of money that could be carried in pockets.  None of it makes sense, unless the FBI is holding back some info...
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4189 on: November 28, 2018, 01:43:17 PM »
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He could have used his pockets...

Would Cooper have tied the money bag and tied the full dummy chest chute to himself for few packets? There weren't D rings to properly attach.


If he emptied the dummy, why toss the contents.

Sure, he could have used his pockets. That said, we know he tried putting at least some of the ransom in a reserve. Makes sense that he stuck with his plan and put some of it in the reserve.

I do not believe he merely threw the dummy reserve out. After all, it's never been found. And, it would have been easier and safer to just leave it on the jet. In my mind he took the dummy reserve for a reason...securing a small portion of the ransom makes sense.

The contents of the dummy remained in the dummy. Why? Because if he removed them...which would have involved a lot of additional effort and cutting...it would then mean the dummy reserve had too much space inside. In fact, the bundles would have been tumbling around. Again, it makes sense to cram in a few packets (3,4, 8...whatever) into the dummy reserve. Also, the shroud lines in the dummy could have been used to repel from a tree if DBC landed in a tree (Sheridan discusses this in his book).

Anything is possible, it seems like too much work to tie the full dummy reserve on for a few packets of money that could be carried in pockets.  None of it makes sense, unless the FBI is holding back some info...

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Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4190 on: January 04, 2019, 12:32:38 AM »
Tom shared this photo and said I could post it - Tom found it in the archive at Seattle. He said it was the only photo of its kind and there were no photos of the separate bills comprising the Ingram find. Tom has no further details about this photo. It looks like a snapshot maybe from a small 35mm camera? Note the round corners on the photo stock.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2019, 12:33:43 AM by georger »
 

Offline EU

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4191 on: January 04, 2019, 05:00:32 PM »
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Tom shared this photo and said I could post it - Tom found it in the archive at Seattle. He said it was the only photo of its kind and there were no photos of the separate bills comprising the Ingram find. Tom has no further details about this photo. It looks like a snapshot maybe from a small 35mm camera? Note the round corners on the photo stock.

Very cool pic.

Given that it makes sense that the edges of the bills would be the most brittle, and that the Ingrams "washed" the bills at home before they were turned over to the FBI, I wonder how much of the brittle edges were simply washed down the sink leaving what we see in the above photo.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4192 on: January 04, 2019, 11:24:18 PM »
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Tom shared this photo and said I could post it - Tom found it in the archive at Seattle. He said it was the only photo of its kind and there were no photos of the separate bills comprising the Ingram find. Tom has no further details about this photo. It looks like a snapshot maybe from a small 35mm camera? Note the round corners on the photo stock.

Very cool pic.

Given that it makes sense that the edges of the bills would be the most brittle, and that the Ingrams "washed" the bills at home before they were turned over to the FBI, I wonder how much of the brittle edges were simply washed down the sink leaving what we see in the above photo.

who knows - key is the phrase "tried to wash". The Ingrams didnt pull all of the groups of bills apart and wash each and every bill ... they just tried to make what they had more presentable. Photos suggest they separated out appox twelve groups ...?

BTW, almost immediately after the excavation ended people moved in to explore and dig Tina bar, including Richard Tosaw. By 1985 Tosaw was still exploring Tina Bar, digging it up with a roto-tiller! Tosaw's methods werent always 'elegant'! There used to be a video of that here: [Still looking for D.B. Cooper 12:07 PM MST on Thursday, May 26, 2005 By CHRIS INGALLS / KING 5 News ]
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Did anyone save that 1985 King News video of Tosaw roto-tilling Tina bar!?   :o
« Last Edit: January 05, 2019, 12:33:11 AM by georger »
 

Offline EU

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4193 on: January 20, 2019, 12:27:51 PM »
Obviously there has been a lot of discussion with respect to the precise location of the money find. I have studied this extensively and just got back from visiting Tena Bar yesterday for multiple hours and closely analyzing the area and comparing it to footage from 1980. My goal was to establish the precise money find spot. To that end, I can report that I have done just that.

The actual spot is 45° 43’ 06” N, 122° 45’ 33” W. This spot is about 10 feet offshore. Additionally, it’s about 120 or so feet north of the yellow pin location on Tom Kaye's website—meaning it’s actually further away from the dredge spoil spread. (To be clear, the coordinates were generated by me utilizing Google Earth on my iPhone after leaving the area and pinning the spot.)

A significant portion of the 1980 road near the money find spot is no longer there due to erosion. Furthermore, there has been a lot of new tree growth in the area since 1980. While the area is almost unrecognizable, a close analysis did provide enough data to work with to help me establish the spot.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4194 on: January 20, 2019, 01:34:46 PM »
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Obviously there has been a lot of discussion with respect to the precise location of the money find. I have studied this extensively and just got back from visiting Tena Bar yesterday for multiple hours and closely analyzing the area and comparing it to footage from 1980. My goal was to establish the precise money find spot. To that end, I can report that I have done just that.

The actual spot is 45° 43’ 06” N, 122° 45’ 33” W. This spot is about 10 feet offshore. Additionally, it’s about 120 or so feet north of the yellow pin location on Tom Kaye's website—meaning it’s actually further away from the dredge spoil spread. (To be clear, the coordinates were generated by me utilizing Google Earth on my iPhone after leaving the area and pinning the spot.)

A significant portion of the 1980 road near the money find spot is no longer there due to erosion. Furthermore, there has been a lot of new tree growth in the area since 1980. While the area is almost unrecognizable, a close analysis did provide enough data to work with to help me establish the spot.

Obviously Tom will disagree. And how did you come to these astounding conclusions? So you are saying the Ingrams lead the FBI to the wrong place! ? And the whole 1980 excavation was in the wrong place!

Have you got any other "news" ?   :o

Are you saying the whole Ingram-FBI money find was "staged"?  Who is working with you on this? 

You or somebody post a picture of what you are claiming.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2019, 01:43:59 PM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4195 on: January 20, 2019, 02:06:20 PM »
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Obviously there has been a lot of discussion with respect to the precise location of the money find. I have studied this extensively and just got back from visiting Tena Bar yesterday for multiple hours and closely analyzing the area and comparing it to footage from 1980. My goal was to establish the precise money find spot. To that end, I can report that I have done just that.

The actual spot is 45° 43’ 06” N, 122° 45’ 33” W. This spot is about 10 feet offshore. Additionally, it’s about 120 or so feet north of the yellow pin location on Tom Kaye's website—meaning it’s actually further away from the dredge spoil spread. (To be clear, the coordinates were generated by me utilizing Google Earth on my iPhone after leaving the area and pinning the spot.)

A significant portion of the 1980 road near the money find spot is no longer there due to erosion. Furthermore, there has been a lot of new tree growth in the area since 1980. While the area is almost unrecognizable, a close analysis did provide enough data to work with to help me establish the spot.

If I read this correctly, here is the approx location you have identified; red dot. Tell us the whole story!
« Last Edit: January 20, 2019, 02:17:39 PM by georger »
 

Offline EU

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4196 on: January 20, 2019, 02:30:49 PM »
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Obviously there has been a lot of discussion with respect to the precise location of the money find. I have studied this extensively and just got back from visiting Tena Bar yesterday for multiple hours and closely analyzing the area and comparing it to footage from 1980. My goal was to establish the precise money find spot. To that end, I can report that I have done just that.

The actual spot is 45° 43’ 06” N, 122° 45’ 33” W. This spot is about 10 feet offshore. Additionally, it’s about 120 or so feet north of the yellow pin location on Tom Kaye's website—meaning it’s actually further away from the dredge spoil spread. (To be clear, the coordinates were generated by me utilizing Google Earth on my iPhone after leaving the area and pinning the spot.)

A significant portion of the 1980 road near the money find spot is no longer there due to erosion. Furthermore, there has been a lot of new tree growth in the area since 1980. While the area is almost unrecognizable, a close analysis did provide enough data to work with to help me establish the spot.

If I read this correctly, here is the approx location you have identified; red dot. Tell us the whole story!

The picture appears to be somewhat distorted. However, it looks like the red dot is quite accurate--probably should be moved a few feet further from the shore though. The newer picture on top does not appear to line up quite correctly.

I have a Google Earth image with the spot noted but I cannot get the picture to load on the Forum site. Same "security" error message as always.

As noted above, there still exists a handful of markers including a portion of the road and stuff in the background. Also, when I walked the property with Richard Fazio in November he mentioned that the FBI initially approached him and is brother to determine whose property the money find was on. The actual spot is quite close to the property line--probably about 20 feet away. There exists a gate on the old road denoting the property line.

Again I took several pictures of the area but cannot post them on this site.
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Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4197 on: January 20, 2019, 02:37:16 PM »
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Obviously there has been a lot of discussion with respect to the precise location of the money find. I have studied this extensively and just got back from visiting Tena Bar yesterday for multiple hours and closely analyzing the area and comparing it to footage from 1980. My goal was to establish the precise money find spot. To that end, I can report that I have done just that.

The actual spot is 45° 43’ 06” N, 122° 45’ 33” W. This spot is about 10 feet offshore. Additionally, it’s about 120 or so feet north of the yellow pin location on Tom Kaye's website—meaning it’s actually further away from the dredge spoil spread. (To be clear, the coordinates were generated by me utilizing Google Earth on my iPhone after leaving the area and pinning the spot.)

A significant portion of the 1980 road near the money find spot is no longer there due to erosion. Furthermore, there has been a lot of new tree growth in the area since 1980. While the area is almost unrecognizable, a close analysis did provide enough data to work with to help me establish the spot.

If I read this correctly, here is the approx location you have identified; red dot. Tell us the whole story!

The picture appears to be somewhat distorted. However, it looks like the red dot is quite accurate--probably should be moved a few feet further from the shore though. The newer picture on top does not appear to line up quite correctly.

I have a Google Earth image with the spot noted but I cannot get the picture to load on the Forum site. Same "security" error message as always.

As noted above, there still exists a handful of markers including a portion of the road and stuff in the background. Also, when I walked the property with Richard Fazio in November he mentioned that the FBI initially approached him and is brother to determine whose property the money find was on. The actual spot is quite close to the property line--probably about 20 feet away. There exists a gate on the old road denoting the property line.

Again I took several pictures of the area but cannot post them on this site.

so you are saying the Ingrams identified the wrong location and the FBI excavated the wrong location and area?

Does any of this have anything to do with Galen Cook's claim that money was found NORTH of the Ingram find?  Bruce Smith included that claim in his recent presentation at your conference.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2019, 02:46:44 PM by georger »
 

Offline EU

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4198 on: January 20, 2019, 02:54:55 PM »
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Obviously there has been a lot of discussion with respect to the precise location of the money find. I have studied this extensively and just got back from visiting Tena Bar yesterday for multiple hours and closely analyzing the area and comparing it to footage from 1980. My goal was to establish the precise money find spot. To that end, I can report that I have done just that.

The actual spot is 45° 43’ 06” N, 122° 45’ 33” W. This spot is about 10 feet offshore. Additionally, it’s about 120 or so feet north of the yellow pin location on Tom Kaye's website—meaning it’s actually further away from the dredge spoil spread. (To be clear, the coordinates were generated by me utilizing Google Earth on my iPhone after leaving the area and pinning the spot.)

A significant portion of the 1980 road near the money find spot is no longer there due to erosion. Furthermore, there has been a lot of new tree growth in the area since 1980. While the area is almost unrecognizable, a close analysis did provide enough data to work with to help me establish the spot.

If I read this correctly, here is the approx location you have identified; red dot. Tell us the whole story!

The picture appears to be somewhat distorted. However, it looks like the red dot is quite accurate--probably should be moved a few feet further from the shore though. The newer picture on top does not appear to line up quite correctly.

I have a Google Earth image with the spot noted but I cannot get the picture to load on the Forum site. Same "security" error message as always.

As noted above, there still exists a handful of markers including a portion of the road and stuff in the background. Also, when I walked the property with Richard Fazio in November he mentioned that the FBI initially approached him and is brother to determine whose property the money find was on. The actual spot is quite close to the property line--probably about 20 feet away. There exists a gate on the old road denoting the property line.

Again I took several pictures of the area but cannot post them on this site.

so you are saying the Ingrams identified the wrong location and the FBI excavated the wrong location and area?

Does any of this have anything to do with Galen Cook's claim that money was found NORTH of the Ingram find?  Bruce Smith included that claim in his recent presentation at your conference.

No. This is the spot the Ingrams identified and the FBI excavated. This is where the cash was found.

To be clear, the gate I'm referring to is not the gate near the "Tina Bar Member's Only" sign. The gate I'm discussing is on the northern edge of the Fazio's property.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2019, 03:03:56 PM by EU »
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Offline georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #4199 on: January 20, 2019, 03:42:49 PM »
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Obviously there has been a lot of discussion with respect to the precise location of the money find. I have studied this extensively and just got back from visiting Tena Bar yesterday for multiple hours and closely analyzing the area and comparing it to footage from 1980. My goal was to establish the precise money find spot. To that end, I can report that I have done just that.

The actual spot is 45° 43’ 06” N, 122° 45’ 33” W. This spot is about 10 feet offshore. Additionally, it’s about 120 or so feet north of the yellow pin location on Tom Kaye's website—meaning it’s actually further away from the dredge spoil spread. (To be clear, the coordinates were generated by me utilizing Google Earth on my iPhone after leaving the area and pinning the spot.)

A significant portion of the 1980 road near the money find spot is no longer there due to erosion. Furthermore, there has been a lot of new tree growth in the area since 1980. While the area is almost unrecognizable, a close analysis did provide enough data to work with to help me establish the spot.

If I read this correctly, here is the approx location you have identified; red dot. Tell us the whole story!

The picture appears to be somewhat distorted. However, it looks like the red dot is quite accurate--probably should be moved a few feet further from the shore though. The newer picture on top does not appear to line up quite correctly.

I have a Google Earth image with the spot noted but I cannot get the picture to load on the Forum site. Same "security" error message as always.

As noted above, there still exists a handful of markers including a portion of the road and stuff in the background. Also, when I walked the property with Richard Fazio in November he mentioned that the FBI initially approached him and is brother to determine whose property the money find was on. The actual spot is quite close to the property line--probably about 20 feet away. There exists a gate on the old road denoting the property line.

Again I took several pictures of the area but cannot post them on this site.

so you are saying the Ingrams identified the wrong location and the FBI excavated the wrong location and area?

Does any of this have anything to do with Galen Cook's claim that money was found NORTH of the Ingram find?  Bruce Smith included that claim in his recent presentation at your conference.

No. This is the spot the Ingrams identified and the FBI excavated. This is where the cash was found.

To be clear, the gate I'm referring to is not the gate near the "Tina Bar Member's Only" sign. The gate I'm discussing is on the northern edge of the Fazio's property.

I know which gate you are identifying.

I wish Shutter would chime in here. Shutter's 'leaning tree' has become synonymous with the Ingram find location, in my mind. I'll post a picture of it...  let me reserve comment here so as not to confuse things further until Tom and Dave have a chance to chime in ...