Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1196972 times)

georger

  • Guest
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3840 on: August 10, 2018, 11:54:36 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
lets keep it civil guys...

one thing I can say is I too was troubled with the statement Tina made about the bands...I don't know if we have the full story or not but can agree it's troubling...

Im not going to post. Let Flyjack have his way. I now do not care. Good luck guys - keep it civil!  :rofl:

I too was troubled by "lets get the show on the road". The hyjacking happened in a car, bus, or van, not in an airplane. Cooper himself says so! Thats an example of Flyjack's logic and with that ... BYE. 
« Last Edit: August 10, 2018, 11:55:00 PM by georger »
 

Offline Unsurelock

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 351
  • Thanked: 53 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3841 on: September 10, 2018, 01:48:28 PM »
I'm going to be on a beach in a couple of weeks, and am planning a small, simple experiment to test a theory I had many months ago.

Theory:  The bill fragments found all throughout the sand, down to a depth of three feet, were unknowingly distributed over such a wide area and depth by the activity of the FBI and Ingram family immediately after the discovery of the money bundle.

In layman's terms, I think the fragments were trampled into position, then discovered under increasing scrutiny of the sand.  I think the Ingrams found the bills, started picking at them, ended up damaging and dropping pieces of the currency in the sand. Then in came the FBI with shovels, boots and a backhoe and started looking for a body, briefcase and parachute.

The experiment will be a simple one, Freshman-level stuff, and if anybody cares to beat me to the punch, here is what I am planning to do:

Materials Needed
- Yard stick
- Shovel
- Trowel
- Bucket
- Rag
- Garden hose
- $6 in singles, 4 cross-shredded and 2 torn into pieces
- Glitter

Procedures

- Scatter bill fragments over four plots of sand, glitter over two more if you have bad eyesight.  Cover three of the six with a thin layer of sand and saturate the plots with a gentle spray over time.  I'm thinking I'll set up a sprinkler and come back after lunch.
- Dig down to three feet in all plots, stopping after each foot of depth to examine the sand in the holes and cleaning the shovel in between each to avoid cross contamination.  Do not try to avoid stepping on the plots. Just act naturally.
- Examine the sand found in the holes, bottoms and sides. Don't be shy. Get down in there and check for the fragments.
- On six separate pages of a notebook, one for each hole dug, write down exactly how many pieces you found and at what depth. Keep those results and graph them later. Should tell us if covering the plots with sand had an effect vs. being right on the surface.

The idea is to see if the action of digging in sand, including the frustrating little "cave-ins" we experience when digging, sufficiently redistributes the bill fragments downward in an either noticable or unnoticable way.  If it's sunny, the glitter should help you see the miniature sand avalanches filling in the hole as you try to dig. I'm planning to dig the glitter holes last

Hopefully my kids won't wreck the ENTIRE thing, but try reasoning with a 3 year old at the beach.
 
The following users thanked this post: Kermit

Offline 377

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1596
  • Thanked: 442 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3842 on: September 12, 2018, 01:26:22 PM »
I like experiments, please let us know your results. 

I am betting that mixing by diggers after the Ingram money find is not the mechanism for the purported wide vertical and horizontal distribution of bill fragments. If that shard distribution report is accurate, it suggests a dredge discharge to me, not inadvertent mixing by diggers.

377
 
The following users thanked this post: andrade1812, Unsurelock

Offline Unsurelock

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 351
  • Thanked: 53 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3843 on: September 12, 2018, 01:40:35 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I like experiments, please let us know your results. 

I am betting that mixing by diggers after the Ingram money find is not the mechanism for the purported wide vertical and horizontal distribution of bill fragments. If that shard distribution report is accurate, it suggests a dredge discharge to me, not inadvertent mixing by diggers.

377

Will do.  My next thought on this is to assemble a brick of cash, find a dredging operation and pay the crew some overtime to feed it through the machine while I film it.  This one's less costly, so naturally it goes first.
 

Offline 377

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1596
  • Thanked: 442 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3844 on: September 12, 2018, 02:01:38 PM »
You could try running small bundles through a centrifugal trash pump to simulate dredging. Can rent a gas powered one fairly cheaply.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

377

 
The following users thanked this post: andrade1812

Offline 73blazer

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 55
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3845 on: September 15, 2018, 06:02:15 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You could try running small bundles through a centrifugal trash pump to simulate dredging. Can rent a gas powered one fairly cheaply.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

377

I think the problem with that is a small pump will almost ensure any cash run thru it will be ground up into tiny bits, desired effect perhaps here, but under no circumstances is a bundle or two going to end up in tack. That's the key, in my humble opinion, given the type of dredge used, could some bundles make it thru more or less unharmed complete with rubber bands and have those bands be still intact years later. That's the major issue I have with the dredge theory. All testing to date says those band should have long disintegrated, dredge or no dredge, if they were in the sand for the number of years spanning from the time we know the dredge to have run from the time they were found. Not sure there's any way to "simulate" that.
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3846 on: September 15, 2018, 06:22:20 PM »
Pumps that size would be of no value to any type of testing...looks like about one and a half to two inch inlet/outlet...compared to 24 inches...nope...
 

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3182
  • Thanked: 467 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3847 on: September 17, 2018, 11:30:24 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You could try running small bundles through a centrifugal trash pump to simulate dredging. Can rent a gas powered one fairly cheaply.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

377

I think the problem with that is a small pump will almost ensure any cash run thru it will be ground up into tiny bits, desired effect perhaps here, but under no circumstances is a bundle or two going to end up in tack. That's the key, in my humble opinion, given the type of dredge used, could some bundles make it thru more or less unharmed complete with rubber bands and have those bands be still intact years later. That's the major issue I have with the dredge theory. All testing to date says those band should have long disintegrated, dredge or no dredge, if they were in the sand for the number of years spanning from the time we know the dredge to have run from the time they were found. Not sure there's any way to "simulate" that.

That was my first thought too. As trite as it sounds, Valid tests try to duplicate original conditions, or change one condition (variable) purposefully in order to test a particular theory.

I dont know of anyone who has the dredge used in '74 in his garage at home!  ;)  I dont think they are for rent either? The dredge used sets the limits on pipe size, pressure, volume, velocity, etc that would have to be duplicated in order to conduct a valid 'money spitter-chewer' test.  ;) These conditions are not going to be easy to test and who knows how much money was even involved. if the dredging brought the money to TBar. Or if the whole of money was involved? ................. lots of things to consider when trying to conduct a test which has real "validity".

I guess my first thought would be to examine the money itself more closely - for any signs of a dredge cutter at work?

 
« Last Edit: September 17, 2018, 11:32:35 PM by georger »
 
The following users thanked this post: andrade1812

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9300
  • Thanked: 1024 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3848 on: September 17, 2018, 11:44:51 PM »
The impellers are not sharp, it's the RPM's that make it dangerous..my guess would be that a lot of what ever goes into the impeller gets by the blades due to the speed the slurry is traveling..the new pumps are much more advanced but I'll bet the old ones are still running strong...smaller companies probably have some older pumps in them, finding them is the trick..these guys probably know the sounds of most of the objects going through the lines...similar to gravel roads...you know who is coming down the road miles away...
« Last Edit: September 18, 2018, 12:07:08 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline 377

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1596
  • Thanked: 442 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3849 on: September 18, 2018, 02:24:21 PM »
You can rent 8 inch trash pumps. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

They don't chop stuff up like gear impeller pumps do. Fish make it through dredge pumps alive. These pumps create a centrifugal flow that allows trash to be pumped through largely intact. An 8" trash pump will pass 3.6" debris. A real dredge is a far better test but a large orifice centrifugal pump might give some useful results.

377

 

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3182
  • Thanked: 467 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3850 on: September 18, 2018, 02:54:46 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You can rent 8 inch trash pumps. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

They don't chop stuff up like gear impeller pumps do. Fish make it through dredge pumps alive. These pumps create a centrifugal flow that allows trash to be pumped through largely intact. An 8" trash pump will pass 3.6" debris. A real dredge is a far better test but a large orifice centrifugal pump might give some useful results.

377

I forget what the 74 dredge pipe dimensions were - can you remember off hand?

If Fish make it through dredge pumps alive, then bundles of money could too, maybe even the bag or a piece of the bag with bundles still inside.
 

Offline 377

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1596
  • Thanked: 442 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3851 on: September 18, 2018, 05:52:13 PM »
BTW, when I fished herring with nets, we unloaded tons of herring from our fish hold up onto the receiving bins on the dock in SF Bay and Tomales Bay using so-called fish pumps. The herring made the trip with zero damage. Lots of water was mixed in with the fish and it too was pumped out of the hold. Not sure how a fish pump worked. Seemed in operation that it was like a great big wet-dry Shop Vac. Wonder if a dredge pump works in a similar manner?

See it here:



377
« Last Edit: September 18, 2018, 06:00:21 PM by 377 »
 

FLYJACK

  • Guest
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3852 on: September 18, 2018, 06:20:17 PM »
It is the cutterhead that would do the damage..  not the pump

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
 

Offline 377

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1596
  • Thanked: 442 times
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3853 on: September 18, 2018, 08:06:34 PM »
I can envision small stuff making it through that cutter head without being ripped to shreds if I am correct in my understanding of how it works. There are some big spaces between those five pitched blades.

I'm no dredge expert however, so please correct me if I am wrong.

377
 

Offline EU

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1759
  • Thanked: 322 times
    • ERIC ULIS: From the History Channel
Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #3854 on: September 18, 2018, 08:53:18 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

I forget what the 74 dredge pipe dimensions were - can you remember off hand?

If Fish make it through dredge pumps alive, then bundles of money could too, maybe even the bag or a piece of the bag with bundles still inside.

The following (in blue) is directly from Tom Kaye's Citizen Sleuths site:

The dredge used in the 1974 operation was described in the FBI transcripts as having "a 24 inch pipe with wiper bar inside the pipe". Further discussion in the transcript describes "an auger" and speculates that a 16x16x4 inch package would be torn apart when transported through the pipe. This is a reasonable view given the power and violent action of dredging.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK