Author Topic: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?  (Read 53089 times)

Offline 377

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Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #75 on: August 27, 2015, 04:42:50 PM »
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I would.

 ;D
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #76 on: September 30, 2015, 06:21:08 PM »
Top Ten Norjak Questions for the FBI

1. Cigarette Butts:

- Where are they?
- If lost, is anyone looking for them?
- Were they used for DNA analysis, as alleged by Pat Forman in a NBC-News broadcast
- If so, where is the paper-work?


2. Ground Search

- Why was the initial ground search out-sourced to Sheriff Departments?
- Why weren't there check-points and road-blocks established once LZ-A was determined, understood to be approximately 11 pm, November 24, 1971?
- Why was the ground search called off on Monday, November 29, 1971?
- Why did Seattle FO tell FBI DC that there was too much snow on the ground to continue, when there was no snow reported in the LZ-A by the Sheriff's officials.


3. Clip-on Tie

- Why did it enter the Seattle evidence cache four days after the hijacking?
- Where was it for that time?
- Was the chain of custody broken?


4. Reno, fingerprints

- Who conducted the fingerprint search aboard 305 on November 24, 1971
- What was obtained in that search?
- Why weren't the “In-flight” magazines gathered into evidence?


5. Reno, duties of FBI agents

- Memories of Las Vegas-based special agents on evidence retrieval duties are in conflict with each other, and Bernie Rhodes writes that they seemed to be “victims of some strange post-hypnotic suggestion.” What happened?
- Other agents, such as Tom Dempsey, were unable to tell SLC SAC Russ Calame what duties they performed that night. How come?
- Did MKULTRA play a part in Norjak?


6.  SOG and 727s

- What was the nature of the investigation of SOG troopers regarding Norjak?
- What was the role of 727s in the Vietnam War?
- Were they used to deploy soldiers into combat?
- Did any units utilize techniques similar to those of DB Cooper, ie: jumping from a 727?


7.  Money retrieval at Tina Bar

- How many shards of money were found at Tina Bar?
- Where are they, currently?
- Did the FBI find part of DB Cooper's briefcase at Tina Bar, as reported by PIO Dorwin Schreuder?
- Why was the money found in a highly compressed state?
- What kinds of follow-up were done along the Columbia River, ie: fishermen interviewed, other sites dug-up, etc.?


8.  Richard McCoy

- What was he doing in Las Vegas on November 24, 1971?


9.  Radar findings

- What did SAGE radar record the night of November 24, 1971.
- Did the F-106s following Flight 305 have any radar findings of Cooper or his jump? If not, why not?


10.  Earl Cossey

- What was the role of Earl Cossey in the Norjak investigation?
- Did he own the “back” parachutes delivered to the hijacker?
- Did Cossey influence the FBI's perspective that Cooper was an inexperienced skydiver?
- Why was Cossey murdered?
      
« Last Edit: September 30, 2015, 06:22:06 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #77 on: September 30, 2015, 06:42:20 PM »
A lot to soak in..... :D
 

Offline andrade1812

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Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #78 on: September 30, 2015, 07:52:33 PM »
Quote
8.  Richard McCoy

- What was he doing in Las Vegas on November 24, 1971?

Probably what most people do in Las Vegas?
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #79 on: September 30, 2015, 08:00:49 PM »
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Quote
8.  Richard McCoy

- What was he doing in Las Vegas on November 24, 1971?

Probably what most people do in Las Vegas?


I believe the problem is his family stated he was home that evening....I think a credit card links him to Vegas.
 

Offline 377

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Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #80 on: September 30, 2015, 08:01:26 PM »
op Ten Norjak Questions for the FBI

1. Cigarette Butts:

- Where are they? Lost (allegedly) but 377 has his suspicions...
- If lost, is anyone looking for them? No
- Were they used for DNA analysis, as alleged by Pat Forman in a NBC-News broadcast? No evidence to support this claim
- If so, where is the paper-work? None known.


2. Ground Search

- Why was the initial ground search out-sourced to Sheriff Departments? The FBI SAs are white shoe guys. It was muddy out there.  ;)  Army got involved too.
- Why weren't there check-points and road-blocks established once LZ-A was determined, understood to be approximately 11 pm, November 24, 1971? In hindsight this probably should have been done. We can only speculate as to whether it would have proven effective.
- Why was the ground search called off on Monday, November 29, 1971? Nothing found, difficult search, time to go home.
- Why did Seattle FO tell FBI DC that there was too much snow on the ground to continue, when there was no snow reported in the LZ-A by the Sheriff's officials. See above.


3. Clip-on Tie

- Why did it enter the Seattle evidence cache four days after the hijacking? Took some time for the FBI to find bismuth, pure titanium and spun aluminum to plant on Cooper's tie.
- Where was it for that time? Various SAs wore it to work as an inside joke.
- Was the chain of custody broken? Broken? It was demolished.


4. Reno, fingerprints

- Who conducted the fingerprint search aboard 305 on November 24, 1971 Unknown
- What was obtained in that search? Various non passenger prints with no hits in FBI print database.
- Why weren't the “In-flight” magazines gathered into evidence? FBI psych profilers concluded that skyjackers would not read them. FBI profilers are always right.


5. Reno, duties of FBI agents

- Memories of Las Vegas-based special agents on evidence retrieval duties are in conflict with each other, and Bernie Rhodes writes that they seemed to be “victims of some strange post-hypnotic suggestion.” What happened? It was just the Vortex near field effects, no hypnosis involved.
- Other agents, such as Tom Dempsey, were unable to tell SLC SAC Russ Calame what duties they performed that night. How come? Vortex effects.
- Did MKULTRA play a part in Norjak? No. Once the hookers got hired, the MKULTRA field work shut down completely. Snowmman was probably involved.


6.  SOG and 727s

- What was the nature of the investigation of SOG troopers regarding Norjak? None. FBI knows that airline employees and Special Forces guys don't commit these kinds of crimes.
- What was the role of 727s in the Vietnam War? Test airdrops of jumpers and palletized cargo over Thailand from Southern Air 727. No provable combat use in Viet Nam.
- Were they used to deploy soldiers into combat? No evidence has been found that proves 727s were used for airdrops over Viet Nam
- Did any units utilize techniques similar to those of DB Cooper, ie: jumping from a 727? Unknown.


7.  Money retrieval at Tina Bar

- How many shards of money were found at Tina Bar? Conflicting reports ranging from none to vast fields of shards. Dispute as to all on surface or distributed through some depth of sand.
- Where are they, currently? If they exist, no public information as to where they now reside.

- Did the FBI find part of DB Cooper's briefcase at Tina Bar, as reported by PIO Dorwin Schreuder? No, appears to be a rumor or distorted memory.
- Why was the money found in a highly compressed state? Quantify highly compressed. If you wet a bundle of dry circulated twenties the height of the stack will be reduced.
- What kinds of follow-up were done along the Columbia River, ie: fishermen interviewed, other sites dug-up, etc.? Not known. Rumors of prior currency find by the "fishing boys" has not yet been proven true.


8.  Richard McCoy

- What was he doing in Las Vegas on November 24, 1971? Depends on who you ask. Calame and Rhodes sure have a strong opinion.


9.  Radar findings

- What did SAGE radar record the night of November 24, 1971. Tracked all airline flights in the area but did not display Coopers exit due to data field blocking out any echo right next to plane target.
- Did the F-106s following Flight 305 have any radar findings of Cooper or his jump? If not, why not? F 106 chase planes had the Hughes MA-1 radar-telemetry based  fire control system and possibly IRST (IR search and track) . Their forward looking targeting radar proved useless/ineffective in tracking Cooper's flight. SAGE data link, if established, didnt help either. A lumbering C 130 freighter with only weather radar was able to find Coopers plane and chase it. Bet those fighter jocks were embarrassed when the Herc trash haulers performed an intercept that they failed at


10.  Earl Cossey

- What was the role of Earl Cossey in the Norjak investigation? He was the FBI's go to guy on all things parachute
- Did he own the “back” parachutes delivered to the hijacker? Nope. At least not the two that Norman owned. Thanks to Bruce we know that for sure.
- Did Cossey influence the FBI's perspective that Cooper was an inexperienced skydiver? Yes, he sure did.
- Why was Cossey murdered? Unknown. My hunch is it had nothing to do with the Cooper case. He was a frequent gambler. carried cash, but motive and perp unknown.
     
« Last Edit: Today at 06:22:06 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #81 on: September 30, 2015, 09:05:06 PM »
I don't think Cossey's murder had anything to do with this case. he was known to have large sums of money on him, probably did a lot of bragging. he was a known gambler as 377 pointed out above. I think that's what got him into trouble in the first place. letting people know personal things such as carrying large sums of money isn't the smartest thing to do. it puts a huge target on you.

I don't think the "Burglary" was random. they usually don't graduate to murder, they bolt out of the area as fast as they can. Blevins goes on and on about other burglaries in the area, but they have nothing to do with what happened to Cossey IMO.

The whole thing is very unfortunate, but it's not uncommon, unfortunately ....
« Last Edit: September 30, 2015, 09:08:05 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #82 on: October 01, 2015, 02:43:25 AM »
377, could you please expand on that part about hookers and Snowmman, please?  Thanks.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #83 on: October 01, 2015, 02:49:03 AM »
McCoy in Vegas Quiz

So, what was Richie doing at McCarran and the Trop on the Wednesday night in question?

1. Gambling, as his wife and family later stated.
2. Passing through town on his way home from hijacking 305, as per Calame and Rhodes.
3. Passing through town on his way home after helping Dan Cooper get out of the woods near Ariel, Amboy, Camas, Woodland, etc...
4. Following orders from his MKULTRA minders before the hookers arrived.
5. Practicing his remote viewing skills before Snowmman arrived.
6. All of the above
7. None of the above.
 

Offline smokin99

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Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #84 on: October 03, 2015, 12:24:53 AM »
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4. Reno, fingerprints

- Who conducted the fingerprint search aboard 305 on November 24, 1971 Unknown
- What was obtained in that search? Various non passenger prints with no hits in FBI print database.
- Why weren't the “In-flight” magazines gathered into evidence? FBI psych profilers concluded that skyjackers would not read them. FBI profilers are always right.

« Last Edit: Today at 06:22:0 PM by Bruce A. Smith »

Geoffrey Grey posted a picture of an in-flight mag with fingerprint from the files so we can probably assume that at least one in-flight mag was gathered.... You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login and, on dz, 
Larry Carr (ckret)  said that they got prints off of the magazines..." No fingerprints from the airstairs, in fact no fingerprints recovered from the airplane during the first evidence sweep proved to be of comparison value. On a second sweep some magazines were located in the area of where Cooper had been. These were processed and a few latents were recovered that are of value. "
Whether they ever actually prove to be of value or not is anyone's guess but someone at some point thought they were worth keeping....
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #85 on: October 03, 2015, 04:21:03 PM »
Thanks, Smok. Again we have conflicting statements. Calame and Rhodes claim that the magazines were not retrieved, and commented upon that goof.

p. 123:

"...(A)gent John Norris...remembers, 'We were criticized by the Bureau for not picking up all the magazines, newspapers, and food containers from the cabin...'"

Also, p. 122:

"Two days later, 26 November 1971, (SAC) Red Campbell received a teletype from the FBI headquarters, confirming their educated appraisal about the smudges: 'Finger prints found on Flight 305 of no value.'"

And, p. 124:

"'No matter how you cut it,' one of the Salt Lake agents said, 'from here on out that bunch in Reno will either have to hang together and stonewall it - or come up with some pretty sophisticated explanations why they let the Reno City police dust that plane for prints, and why those damn magazines never got sent back to the FBI Fingerprint Division.'"
« Last Edit: October 03, 2015, 04:32:19 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #86 on: October 03, 2015, 04:35:12 PM »
At the risk of being a little too fussy, Smok, but I don't see any fingerprint(s) in the pix that GG posted. Do you?

I see a piece of masking tape with a red arrow on it, and a card of some kind with FBI markings on it, and a notation that someone wrote about it being from the inflight mags of 305. What am I missing?
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #87 on: October 03, 2015, 04:51:27 PM »
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I don't think Cossey's murder had anything to do with this case. he was known to have large sums of money on him, probably did a lot of bragging. he was a known gambler as 377 pointed out above. I think that's what got him into trouble in the first place. letting people know personal things such as carrying large sums of money isn't the smartest thing to do. it puts a huge target on you.

I don't think the "Burglary" was random. they usually don't graduate to murder, they bolt out of the area as fast as they can. Blevins goes on and on about other burglaries in the area, but they have nothing to do with what happened to Cossey IMO.

The whole thing is very unfortunate, but it's not uncommon, unfortunately ....

Very plausible scenario, Shut. But, on the other hand, another scenario must be weighed:

Cossey was seemingly a key player in the unraveling of a major cover-up by the FBI.

So, on balance, how do you see things stacking up? 50-50? 60-40 for a burg gone bad? Pick a number, please!

I'm going for 70-30 for the cover-up. Imagine if Cossey sat own with me and told me the WHOLE truth of what he did and why. Imagine if he told me how the Norjak narrative shifted from Coop being a master criminal with serious skydiving chops to a dumb bunny who died, and Cossey could tell me who in the FBI either asked him to formulate that theory, or to whom he sold the idea.

Bottom Line: How much do you believe a guy who sent the parachutes to the wrong airport?

Further, how much do you trust a LE agency that used that guy as their technical expert for 40 years?

Me, I don't trust them much.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2015, 04:51:57 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

georger

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Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #88 on: October 04, 2015, 12:53:54 AM »
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I don't think Cossey's murder had anything to do with this case. he was known to have large sums of money on him, probably did a lot of bragging. he was a known gambler as 377 pointed out above. I think that's what got him into trouble in the first place. letting people know personal things such as carrying large sums of money isn't the smartest thing to do. it puts a huge target on you.

I don't think the "Burglary" was random. they usually don't graduate to murder, they bolt out of the area as fast as they can. Blevins goes on and on about other burglaries in the area, but they have nothing to do with what happened to Cossey IMO.

The whole thing is very unfortunate, but it's not uncommon, unfortunately ....

Very plausible scenario, Shut. But, on the other hand, another scenario must be weighed:

Cossey was seemingly a key player in the unraveling of a major cover-up by the FBI.

So, on balance, how do you see things stacking up? 50-50? 60-40 for a burg gone bad? Pick a number, please!

I'm going for 70-30 for the cover-up. Imagine if Cossey sat own with me and told me the WHOLE truth of what he did and why. Imagine if he told me how the Norjak narrative shifted from Coop being a master criminal with serious skydiving chops to a dumb bunny who died, and Cossey could tell me who in the FBI either asked him to formulate that theory, or to whom he sold the idea.

Bottom Line: How much do you believe a guy who sent the parachutes to the wrong airport?

Further, how much do you trust a LE agency that used that guy as their technical expert for 40 years?

Me, I don't trust them much.

Where do you come with this: used that guy as their technical expert for 40 years ???

They consulted the guy, many times. Various agents but also many others consulted the guy. Just like many have consulted JT over the years! That doesn't make Cossey their sole technical expert for 40 years  !  They consulted lots of others also. I dont recall anyone ever saying officially Cossey was used that guy as their technical expert for 40 years. Like so many things Bruce, I think you have overworked this.
 ::)
« Last Edit: October 04, 2015, 12:56:04 AM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #89 on: October 04, 2015, 12:59:01 AM »
I think Cossey is just a centerpiece for the chute part of the crime. they seem to have trusted him, so they continued to use his advice over the years. to me, it's just an unsolved case. it's riddled with mistakes, but I doubt any type of damaging coverup is involved.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2015, 03:14:59 PM by Shutter »