DB COOPER

General Category => DB Cooper => Topic started by: Shutter on March 21, 2014, 10:32:00 PM

Title: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Shutter on March 21, 2014, 10:32:00 PM
This will be a place to discuss the DNA captured by the FBI that is, or thought to be DB Cooper's.

Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Shutter on October 10, 2014, 06:27:55 PM
Hopefully Georger can better explain the whole DNA thingy with Cooper, and give us all better knowledge in understanding how it works, and what it can do for the case.

Georger, you have the floor.... 8)
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on October 10, 2014, 11:29:15 PM
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Hopefully Georger can better explain the whole DNA thingy with Cooper, and give us all better knowledge in understanding how it works, and what it can do for the case.

Georger, you have the floor.... 8)

I feel I have already written so much about this, and I wonder if people really are interested/concerned. Let's simply say Arc Point of Seattle is a franchised testing service. There are several around the US. Their page explains what they do and who their customer base is.  http://arcpointlabsfranchise.com/?gclid=CIC2_4HcosECFQuOaQodlQEAow

And again here are links that will explain the CODIS (Combined dna index) system and how it works and why:
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/lab/biometric-analysis/codis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_DNA_Index_System
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/lab/biometric-analysis/codis/codis-and-ndis-fact-sheet


 
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Shutter on October 10, 2014, 11:42:27 PM
Yes, people are interested. I would like to have information about the DNA, and it's link to Cooper found here for quick reference, or education. I will then lock the thread to viewing only. lots of people don't totally understand what the FBI has, or what it can, or can not do in identifying who Cooper is, or was. I want to punch through all of the myths surrounding this case, and make them easy to access here on this site.
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on October 11, 2014, 12:06:58 AM
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Yes, people are interested. I would like to have information about the DNA, and it's link to Cooper found here for quick reference, or education. I will then lock the thread to viewing only. lots of people don't totally understand what the FBI has, or what it can, or can not do in identifying who Cooper is, or was. I want to punch through all of the myths surrounding this case, and make them easy to access here on this site.

I frankly don't want to give too much away here. I want to give Mr. Blevins room to make his posts, make his claims, and then we can address specific points as those emerge.

I do not know for certain what the FBI has, or doesn't have, in terms of dna evidence in the Cooper case. I have what Larry Carr said: that the FBI has a partial profile in the DB Cooper case. Since the FBI uses the CODIS-13 system I have to assume their "partial" refers to a partial within the CODIS-13 system. This might mean that the FBI tests identified some 7 out of the 13 genetic markers used in the Codis13 system, which the FBI feels were identified to some acceptable level of reliability. As FBI spokespeople have said, that would not be sufficient to guarantee a codis match on all 13 loci, but it is enough rule people out if people's codis markers do not match the markers the FBI has supposedly identified.

Again, here is a list of the markers used in the codis-13 system. The urls I listed give meaning to this.
 

 
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Shutter on October 11, 2014, 12:31:30 AM
Understood, none of this has to happen now anyway. I'm just slowly working everything together.
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on October 11, 2014, 02:36:25 AM
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Understood, none of this has to happen now anyway. I'm just slowly working everything together.

Blevins says: "Actually...I am only trying to find out if Kenny Christiansen was Cooper. That's it. I can't alter any DNA test, and if the Seattle FBI ever decides to check out the witnesses named in the updated report, I have no control over that either. "

Blevins already has the answer to this.

The FBI has stated they only have a partial for Cooper. That is insufficient to match anyone, Lyle or Kenny himself even if Kenny was Cooper! Lyle can come out at best as a 'partial of a partial, of a partial'! It's going to take somebody like the FBI or Arc Point to pound that into Blevins' head and very likely they won't even accomplish that.

The issue is not Lyle or Kenny but Blevins himself.

 
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: sailshaw on October 11, 2014, 10:54:13 AM
Georger:   I don't think the FBI has yet found DB Cooper's DNA. I believe they actually have it under the stamps and envelope flaps of the four letters sent to the news papers following the Norjak hijack.  The FBI seems reluctant to discover that DNA as they don;t seem to think the letters are from DB. I have another thought on the letters (especially letter #3) that has a salutation of "The system that beat the system, DB Cooper". That was the mantra of Sheridan Peterson the whole month he stayed at my house in Seattle. That made me a believer in the four letters actually being from DB/Sheridan. It also ment that he survived the jump and was alive which the FBI did not want to believe. The FBI has Sheridan Peterson's DNA that was collected by the two Female Agents, However, they bought the phoney story of Cossey who may have actually been a partner in the caper and wanted to through the FBI off by saying it was too difficult a jump and DB was an beginner jumper and did not know what he was doing. The opposite is true of Sheridan (Smoke Jumper, Instructor in the Boeing Skydiving Club, skydiving experimenter with wings etc...). Cossey could have served as the ground/getaway guy and launder of the money in the Casino's he visited.
The FBI needs to Solve The Crime by looking at the DNA on the four envelopes they have.

Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Shutter on October 11, 2014, 11:40:25 AM
What will happen if the letters have four different DNA samples, and don't match the samples on the tie? I still wonder if they already checked the letters and haven't told anyone?
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: sailshaw on October 11, 2014, 11:54:06 AM
Georger (continued):  To solve the case all the FBI needs to do is compare the DNA from the four letters with what they already have from Sheridan Peterson and a match (and I truly believe they would get a match) would prove that Sheridan was in the Portland area at the scene of the crime for Norjak and not in Nepal as his phoney alibi says. So easy to solve and yet the FBI is stuck on stop probably on the order from the US Attorney Generals Office (and we know how he works). The FBI needs to solve the crime and get it off their books as a success and not as their only unsolved crime. . Another aspect of DB is the disguise he use was so simple. He wore sunglasses to cover his eye color (what the FBI looks at to identify the suspect). The only time he took off the sunglasses was to show the Flight Attendants his eye color. They said he had "piercing brown eyes" which covered up hi actual blue eyes. No other disguise was necessary and it did the trick with the investigators.

Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Shutter on October 11, 2014, 12:10:03 PM
Ok, who reported my post to the moderators here  :D ;D ;) I just got an email about it lol. sailshaw did you hit the report button by mistake. I have to put myself on vaction now  :D ;) :)

just kidding
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on October 12, 2014, 01:11:43 AM
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Georger (continued):  To solve the case all the FBI needs to do is compare the DNA from the four letters with what they already have from Sheridan Peterson and a match (and I truly believe they would get a match) would prove that Sheridan was in the Portland area at the scene of the crime for Norjak and not in Nepal as his phoney alibi says. So easy to solve and yet the FBI is stuck on stop probably on the order from the US Attorney Generals Office (and we know how he works). The FBI needs to solve the crime and get it off their books as a success and not as their only unsolved crime. . Another aspect of DB is the disguise he use was so simple. He wore sunglasses to cover his eye color (what the FBI looks at to identify the suspect). The only time he took off the sunglasses was to show the Flight Attendants his eye color. They said he had "piercing brown eyes" which covered up hi actual blue eyes. No other disguise was necessary and it did the trick with the investigators.

Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com

I think we are entitled to some good news from time to time _ not infected by personal polemics.

The good news is, the FBI sample from the tie turned out to be Human, and not from a dog!   :) :) :)
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 17, 2014, 05:18:53 PM
Here's what I know about the DNA.  As Georger said above, he has posted his info many times in many places, and I will do the same, because this seems like an ideal repository for this information.

1. The current DNA sample that the FBI has comes from epithelial cells found on the clasp. Larry Carr readily acknowledged to me that they could be DB Cooper's or anyone else who handled the tie. Larry confirmed it is a "partial" sample.

However, Larry did not comment on the statements made by Calame and Rhodes in their book that the tie entered the evidentiary collection in Seattle four days after the skyjacking and no one knows where it was during that time.

Further, Calame and Rhodes write that they interviewed the four FBI agents tasked with evidence retrieval in Reno, and none remember seeing, taking, or talking about the tie.

Compounding the confusion during the retrieval, Reno PD apparently was dusting for fingerprints, according to Rhodes, and a K-9 bomb sniffing team came aboard and ate the crew's dinner sitting on the seats in First Class, according to Rataczak.

2. The best source of DNA comes from human fluids, such as blood, semen, and saliva. As a result, the eight cigarette butts left by Cooper are ideal for DNA testing, even forty years later. These butts were tested circa 2002 because Pat and Ron Forman claim they heard a KIRO-TV news report stating that the FBI had Cooper's DNA from the cigarettes.

However, Larry reported on the DZ in 2008 that he went looking for the butts to test them for DNA, and they were missing. Also lost, apparently, was the paper work from 2002 detailing Cooper's profile.
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on December 18, 2014, 12:22:01 AM
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Here's what I know about the DNA.  As Georger said above, he has posted his info many times in many places, and I will do the same, because this seems like an ideal repository for this information.

1. The current DNA sample that the FBI has comes from epithelial cells found on the clasp. Larry Carr readily acknowledged to me that they could be DB Cooper's or anyone else who handled the tie. Larry confirmed it is a "partial" sample.

However, Larry did not comment on the statements made by Calame and Rhodes in their book that the tie entered the evidentiary collection in Seattle four days after the skyjacking and no one knows where it was during that time.

Further, Calame and Rhodes write that they interviewed the four FBI agents tasked with evidence retrieval in Reno, and none remember seeing, taking, or talking about the tie.

Compounding the confusion during the retrieval, Reno PD apparently was dusting for fingerprints, according to Rhodes, and a K-9 bomb sniffing team came aboard and ate the crew's dinner sitting on the seats in First Class, according to Rataczak.

2. The best source of DNA comes from human fluids, such as blood, semen, and saliva. As a result, the eight cigarette butts left by Cooper are ideal for DNA testing, even forty years later. These butts were tested circa 2002 because Pat and Ron Forman claim they heard a KIRO-TV news report stating that the FBI had Cooper's DNA from the cigarettes.

However, Larry reported on the DZ in 2008 that he went looking for the butts to test them for DNA, and they were missing. Also lost, apparently, was the paper work from 2002 detailing Cooper's profile.

Actually Bruce, yours is a pretty good synopsis from my perspective.

Im actually foggy on where on the tie the epithelial cells (skin cells) were collected from, whether from clasp, tie proper, area near the neck ??? The assumption is the epithelial cells were neck skin cells dropped due to friction with cloth involving Cooper's neck. When they are identified as epithelial cells that probably indicates some effort to identify the cell type prior to testing.

The loss of the butts, if they are in fact lost, would be a blow. Those would be the best source to take samples from ...

Im still hopeful something will come in the dna area..

 
 
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 18, 2014, 01:55:57 AM
Larry told me epithelial cells from the fingers on the clasp
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Moriarty on December 18, 2014, 03:34:33 AM
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Larry told me epithelial cells from the fingers on the clasp

Are you guys talking about FBI stating a Cooper DNA "partial sample" or a "partial profile?"

It's my knowledge that the tie contains lots of people's DNA.
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on December 18, 2014, 03:35:28 AM
Im going to make this post without much comment except to bolden the passages which I think are crucial, which may have future relevance.

Posted by RMBlevins:

"The basic story is like this: We're now presenting the absolute best information on KC we have, including the testimony of additional witnesses and their contact info. We're tossing in Lyle's DNA profile for comparison. Our hope is that ArcPoint will be able to talk the FBI into letting their staff see the partial profile they have from the tie DNA. They want to check Lyle's profile with the partial, to do their own comparison  It's a good control, I think. If the FBI says that Lyle's profile eliminates Kenny from tie ownership, and ArcPoint comes to the same result, would be more confident about that being the final result. Not that I don't trust the Seattle FBI, but ArcPoint has claimed they might be able to do a better comparison then the FBI would do at this stage. (With the FBI's non-budget for the Cooper case)

I told them good luck with the request. I don't know. The FBI allowed the Sleuths pretty good access to the evidence. All ArcPoint would want is a copy of the existing partial profile. Frankly, I'm hoping the FBI agrees to this. They have expressed an interest in seeing the final report on Kenny. It's possible I could work a deal with ArcPoint for us to present the report and Lyle's DNA profile to the Seattle FBI, and at the same time ask them if ArcPoint (not me, just them) could do their own comparison with the partial

Before you say anything, remember this isn't the DNA or the tie itself ArcPoint would ask to examine. Just a copy of the partial profile(s) they gleaned from the tie DNA. Might have to be some confidentiality between Arc and the Seattle FBI.  I also want to give the FBI a good head start on the report before releasing it to general media. I was kicking that back and forth for a while, but then I realized if I released to media, that media might actively seek out the witnesses BEFORE the FBI gets a chance to talk to them first. And that would defeat the whole purpose and probably scare some of them off. They've said they would talk to the FBI, but no one said anything about reporters.  Only the film company has seen the report so far, plus a couple of close friends I trust.   (There will be no leaks from the film company or the ENTITIES I mention!) None of those entities will contact the witnesses at this time. The film company just wants to review the allegations, the testimony, and read the book. I should know something by Christmas, I'm told...but the film rep told me they've been wanting to do Cooper for quite a while now and I think it looks good for us.

 (This post was edited by RobertMBlevins on Dec 17, 2014, 11:42 PM)
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on December 18, 2014, 03:38:54 AM
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Larry told me epithelial cells from the fingers on the clasp

Are you guys talking about FBI stating a Cooper DNA "partial sample" or a "partial profile?"

It's my knowledge that the tie contains lots of people's DNA.

What would a "partial sample" vs. a "partial profile" be in this matter?

What is the distinction be between a sample vs. profile?

Where do you get your knowledge that the tie contains lots of people's DNA?  DNA in what form?

Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Moriarty on December 18, 2014, 04:18:09 AM
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Larry told me epithelial cells from the fingers on the clasp

Are you guys talking about FBI stating a Cooper DNA "partial sample" or a "partial profile?"

It's my knowledge that the tie contains lots of people's DNA.

What would a "partial sample" vs. a "partial profile" be in this matter?

What is the distinction be between a sample vs. profile?

Where do you get your knowledge that the tie contains lots of people's DNA?  DNA in what form?

A sample (actual blood, saliva, whatever) that is relatively small in size may produce a small range of DNA, (partial sample) even in what would sound like a large collection of pairs. A partial sample exposes itself to a bigger chance that the sample tested may be contaminated, or even decayed. This could lead to a "partial profile" and open itself to matches/identifiers that are common, I believe referred to as a coincidental match. It's argued all the time in courts and I believe someone stated in the Cooper case somehwere that DNA has a lesser probability to identify the individual but a greater use to eliminate an individual.
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on December 18, 2014, 01:38:03 PM
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Larry told me epithelial cells from the fingers on the clasp

Are you guys talking about FBI stating a Cooper DNA "partial sample" or a "partial profile?"

It's my knowledge that the tie contains lots of people's DNA.

What would a "partial sample" vs. a "partial profile" be in this matter?

What is the distinction be between a sample vs. profile?

Where do you get your knowledge that the tie contains lots of people's DNA?  DNA in what form?

A sample (actual blood, saliva, whatever) that is relatively small in size may produce a small range of DNA, (partial sample) even in what would sound like a large collection of pairs. A partial sample exposes itself to a bigger chance that the sample tested may be contaminated, or even decayed. This could lead to a "partial profile" and open itself to matches/identifiers that are common, I believe referred to as a coincidental match. It's argued all the time in courts and I believe someone stated in the Cooper case somewhere that DNA has a lesser probability to identify the individual but a greater use to eliminate an individual.

Ok, I see what you are saying. Another way to put this is to say 2 cells vs. 2000 cells. Since degradation (viability) is an issue in cells, especially old poorly preserved cells, then sheer number of cells in a sample can translate into  partial profile when degradation is also a factor.

Sample size also relates to 'reliability' of a tests, since any result is a statistical issue.

I have not wanted to say this since we deal with so many cranks and critics here who are always looking for flaws and will jump at any chance to help build their case, but the fact is 'epithelial' skin cells are not exactly 'potent' carriers to begin with. Cell numbers and the viability of those cells in a sample would very much matter. But you test what you have when there is no other choice. Given those facts you can assume the FBI's result is the result of multiple tests, not just one,  at least three for reasons of statistical necessity. (And now that I have said that you can bet the cranks will leap to discount everything the FBI claims to have, in order to squeeze some Duane or Kenny through the eye on a needle.)

Viability of whatever cells are collected is very important.
 
  http://www.scientific.org/tutorials/articles/riley/riley.html
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on December 18, 2014, 02:25:37 PM
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Im going to make this post without much comment except to bolden the passages which I think are crucial, which may have future relevance.

Posted by RMBlevins:

"The basic story is like this: We're now presenting the absolute best information on KC we have, including the testimony of additional witnesses and their contact info. We're tossing in Lyle's DNA profile for comparison. Our hope is that ArcPoint will be able to talk the FBI into letting their staff see the partial profile they have from the tie DNA. They want to check Lyle's profile with the partial, to do their own comparison  It's a good control, I think. If the FBI says that Lyle's profile eliminates Kenny from tie ownership, and ArcPoint comes to the same result, would be more confident about that being the final result. Not that I don't trust the Seattle FBI, but ArcPoint has claimed they might be able to do a better comparison then the FBI would do at this stage. (With the FBI's non-budget for the Cooper case)

I told them good luck with the request. I don't know. The FBI allowed the Sleuths pretty good access to the evidence. All ArcPoint would want is a copy of the existing partial profile. Frankly, I'm hoping the FBI agrees to this. They have expressed an interest in seeing the final report on Kenny. It's possible I could work a deal with ArcPoint for us to present the report and Lyle's DNA profile to the Seattle FBI, and at the same time ask them if ArcPoint (not me, just them) could do their own comparison with the partial

Before you say anything, remember this isn't the DNA or the tie itself ArcPoint would ask to examine. Just a copy of the partial profile(s) they gleaned from the tie DNA. Might have to be some confidentiality between Arc and the Seattle FBI.  I also want to give the FBI a good head start on the report before releasing it to general media. I was kicking that back and forth for a while, but then I realized if I released to media, that media might actively seek out the witnesses BEFORE the FBI gets a chance to talk to them first. And that would defeat the whole purpose and probably scare some of them off. They've said they would talk to the FBI, but no one said anything about reporters.  Only the film company has seen the report so far, plus a couple of close friends I trust.   (There will be no leaks from the film company or the ENTITIES I mention!) None of those entities will contact the witnesses at this time. The film company just wants to review the allegations, the testimony, and read the book. I should know something by Christmas, I'm told...but the film rep told me they've been wanting to do Cooper for quite a while now and I think it looks good for us.

 (This post was edited by RobertMBlevins on Dec 17, 2014, 11:42 PM)

From Blevins' remarks above, it is obvious Blevins is trying to 'manipulate' everyone in the issue of genetic testing for his "clients" - Lyle etal. Arc Point has an idiot and a manipulator on their hands.

Who is leading and giving order to who, here!?

Do protocols mean anything to these clowns?

Newsflash for Blevins!:  The Arc Point franchise has protocols and licensing requirements it must follow ... or its whole business goes right out the window!

The FBI must follow well-established protocols!

Mr. Blevins cannot dictate terms. Or he can take his crap someplace else to have it tested. Wherever Blevins goes, nothing grows. Blevins is going to have everyone in trouble and humiliated, before this latest machination of his is over...
 :)   
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Moriarty on December 18, 2014, 11:41:20 PM
I don't know who this person is but from the short end of it this person better make the film, rush to the media with their claims on the day they open the film, otherwise they won't make the money and fame they seek. What's the date today? Dec.18, 2014. Mark it here predicting the only option they will have will be to attack the procedures, test handling, chain of custody, etc. when they dispute the results. Even if they plant their cash cow's DNA on Cooper's tie, how would that prove he is Dan Cooper? No one is going to solve this case from a suspect first. The second anyone presents a person as the origin of their theory, it should be suspect to question. All someone has to do is work hard on one aspect, get it and eventually the other dominoes will fall.
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: nmiwrecks on December 18, 2014, 11:52:07 PM
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No one is going to solve this case from a suspect first. The second anyone presents a person as the origin of their theory, it should be suspect to question. All someone has to do is work hard on one aspect, get it and eventually the other dominoes will fall.
Wow, pretty solid investigation and mystery solving skills.  I can tell this website and the other one are filled with talented investigators.   Has anyone posting on these sites ever solved a mystery?  Anybody crack a cold case and see it closed? 
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on December 18, 2014, 11:54:29 PM
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I don't know who this person is but from the short end of it this person better make the film, rush to the media with their claims on the day they open the film, otherwise they won't make the money and fame they seek. What's the date today? Dec.18, 2014. Mark it here predicting the only option they will have will be to attack the procedures, test handling, chain of custody, etc. when they dispute the results. Even if they plant their cash cow's DNA on Cooper's tie, how would that prove he is Dan Cooper? No one is going to solve this case from a suspect first. The second anyone presents a person as the origin of their theory, it should be suspect to question. All someone has to do is work hard on one aspect, get it and eventually the other dominoes will fall.

I tend to agree with this approach. The road begins with a single step.
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Shutter on December 19, 2014, 05:16:49 PM
Quote
No one is going to solve this case from a suspect first.

I disagree with this quote. several things to keep in mind. If Cooper did live, then it possibly could lead someone to the crime. not circumstantial evidence, something that would prove he was Cooper. I would like to believe even if he was a loner that he saved something linking him to the crime that would be found if he died. 

We now have two suspects from the missing persons avenue. I don't think this area has been checked over good enough to dismiss a missing persons possibility. Cooper doesn't have to be from the USA.

Quote
I can tell this website and the other one are filled with talented investigators.. Anybody crack a cold case and see it closed?

I don't believe many here are claiming to be "investigators" vs being researchers. I know I don't claim to be an investigator, and someone looking into a suspect isn't really one either IMO. armchair detective, perhaps a few. I believe some are so wrapped up in the case they fail to see evidence pointing against a suspect. 

I would credit Bruce Smith as a News/Media Investigator. he talks with key people in the investigation where some don't. he asks key questions. some people don't like his approach, but someone has to do it in order to get answers. I don't always agree with some of his conclusions, but he goes above and beyond more than others. 

In all the years DZ has been around I don't know if anyone has solved a cold case before. I see a lot of personality conflicts while researching this case, people butt heads constantly. I believe some have actually helped the case. Agent Carr was on DZ for some time, and learned as well. IQ's are tested all the time here, and "over there"

I believe NMIWrecks is a special Deputy falling into a different category explained above.
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 19, 2014, 05:40:29 PM
With all due respect to Special Deputy Richardson, what we are doing here is a different model of investigation than what LE does, such as "cracking cold case."

We are an "open-sourced" sleuthing team. We don't have the resources of LE, but we have each other, and some of use are very cool, like Snowmman, who is downright cold.

I got Tina's number from hints dropped by Jo, Cousin Arlene and the Gresham link from Galen, Lee Dormuth from Smokin'99, Bill Mitchell from EVicki. Snow was critical in finding Ted and Petey, which led to contact with Sail. And 377 paid for the rental car and gas so I could hunt for the elusive eagle-eyed one.
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: EVickiW on December 19, 2014, 07:42:56 PM
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With all due respect to Special Deputy Richardson, what we are doing here is a different model of investigation than what LE does, such as "cracking cold case."

We are an "open-sourced" sleuthing team. We don't have the resources of LE, but we have each other, and some of use are very cool, like Snowmman, who is downright cold.

I got Tina's number from hints dropped by Jo, Cousin Arlene and the Gresham link from Galen, Lee Dormuth from Smokin'99, Bill Mitchell from EVicki. Snow was critical in finding Ted and Petey, which led to contact with Sail. And 377 paid for the rental car and gas so I could hunt for the elusive eagle-eyed one.

Just so Jo does not send me any more evil emails, I would like to state that I gave Bruce's contact information to Mitchell and Bill Mitchell contacted Bruce of his own volition. I would also like to state that I did not receive Mitchell's contact information as a result of Jo Weber contacting Mitchell on my behalf: which she so vehemently states on the Dropzone and in personal attack emails I have received from her.
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 19, 2014, 07:58:56 PM
EVicki is correct.

I apologize if my statement gave a misleading impression of how Bill Mitchell and I came to speak with one another.
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on December 20, 2014, 01:40:08 AM
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EVicki is correct.

I apologize if my statement gave a misleading impression of how Bill Mitchell and I came to speak with one another.

Doesnt this belong in another thread?
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Moriarty on December 24, 2014, 12:28:11 AM
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Quote
No one is going to solve this case from a suspect first.

I disagree with this quote. several things to keep in mind. If Cooper did live, then it possibly could lead someone to the crime. not circumstantial evidence, something that would prove he was Cooper. I would like to believe even if he was a loner that he saved something linking him to the crime that would be found if he died. 

We now have two suspects from the missing persons avenue. I don't think this area has been checked over good enough to dismiss a missing persons possibility. Cooper doesn't have to be from the USA.

Quote
I can tell this website and the other one are filled with talented investigators.. Anybody crack a cold case and see it closed?

I don't believe many here are claiming to be "investigators" vs being researchers. I know I don't claim to be an investigator, and someone looking into a suspect isn't really one either IMO. armchair detective, perhaps a few. I believe some are so wrapped up in the case they fail to see evidence pointing against a suspect. 

I would credit Bruce Smith as a News/Media Investigator. he talks with key people in the investigation where some don't. he asks key questions. some people don't like his approach, but someone has to do it in order to get answers. I don't always agree with some of his conclusions, but he goes above and beyond more than others. 

In all the years DZ has been around I don't know if anyone has solved a cold case before. I see a lot of personality conflicts while researching this case, people butt heads constantly. I believe some have actually helped the case. Agent Carr was on DZ for some time, and learned as well. IQ's are tested all the time here, and "over there"

I believe NMIWrecks is a special Deputy falling into a different category explained above.

Keep in mind no one has come forth and identified Cooper. Why? He was hardly disguised.

There is always the possibility that Cooper never wanted to be identified and keeping any momento of the crime could'v fallen into someone's hands. If Cooper survived the jump. maybe he didn't want to have anything to do with the crime anymore.

--> There is multiple male DNA on the tie. Multiple, like a lot. Assume the tie was used by many.

Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on December 24, 2014, 05:46:28 AM
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Quote
No one is going to solve this case from a suspect first.

I disagree with this quote. several things to keep in mind. If Cooper did live, then it possibly could lead someone to the crime. not circumstantial evidence, something that would prove he was Cooper. I would like to believe even if he was a loner that he saved something linking him to the crime that would be found if he died. 

We now have two suspects from the missing persons avenue. I don't think this area has been checked over good enough to dismiss a missing persons possibility. Cooper doesn't have to be from the USA.

Quote
I can tell this website and the other one are filled with talented investigators.. Anybody crack a cold case and see it closed?

I don't believe many here are claiming to be "investigators" vs being researchers. I know I don't claim to be an investigator, and someone looking into a suspect isn't really one either IMO. armchair detective, perhaps a few. I believe some are so wrapped up in the case they fail to see evidence pointing against a suspect. 

I would credit Bruce Smith as a News/Media Investigator. he talks with key people in the investigation where some don't. he asks key questions. some people don't like his approach, but someone has to do it in order to get answers. I don't always agree with some of his conclusions, but he goes above and beyond more than others. 

In all the years DZ has been around I don't know if anyone has solved a cold case before. I see a lot of personality conflicts while researching this case, people butt heads constantly. I believe some have actually helped the case. Agent Carr was on DZ for some time, and learned as well. IQ's are tested all the time here, and "over there"

I believe NMIWrecks is a special Deputy falling into a different category explained above.

Keep in mind no one has come forth and identified Cooper. Why? He was hardly disguised.

There is always the possibility that Cooper never wanted to be identified and keeping any momento of the crime could'v fallen into someone's hands. If Cooper survived the jump. maybe he didn't want to have anything to do with the crime anymore.

--> There is multiple male DNA on the tie. Multiple, like a lot. Assume the tie was used by many.

You say: -> There is multiple male DNA on the tie. Multiple, like a lot. Assume the tie was used by many.

How many males? 1056? Or less than 437?

And here's the 50c question -

How in blazes do you know!?

Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 24, 2014, 04:56:04 PM
Yeah, how do you know?
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Moriarty on December 25, 2014, 12:33:42 AM
12+
Multiple sources.
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 25, 2014, 01:33:31 AM
So, nu, who are they?
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on January 03, 2015, 02:35:03 AM
Sale!
https://www.23andme.com/
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on January 07, 2015, 03:20:11 PM
 :)

Did Cooper have a DRD4 gene anomaly?   Some contend he must have had that mutation. Did the FBI genetic workup on Cooper reveal a DRD4 gene anomaly, and what is the big deal with the DRD4 gene anyway, as some contend it applies to adventure seekers, skydivers, and perhaps to the D.B. Cooper also?

Genes regulate the activity of Neurotransmitters. Neurotransmitters are those ‘brain chemicals’ that control metabolic functions by flooding our cells with different chemicals. There are two basic kinds of neurotransmitters – Inhibitory and Excitatory. Excitatory neurotransmitters stimulate the brain and  Inhibitory neurotransmitters calm the brain and balance mood, and are easily depleted when the excitation neurotransmitters are overactive. Two of these neurotransmitters are Dopamine and Serotonin, among others.  The levels of these neurotransmitters influence everything from basic metabolic functions and general personality disposition, to how a person will respond in life situations.   

The dopamine receptor D4 is a G protein-coupled receptor encoded by the DRD4 gene. Back in 1996 a study claimed to have found an association between the specific personality trait of ‘novelty seeking’ and ‘polymorphism (mutations)’ in the DRD4 dopamine receptor gene.  See: http://www.nature.com/ng/journal/v12/n1/abs/ng0196-78.html. The general statement of this theory goes as follows:

'" If you have a longer than average version of the D4DR dopamine receptor gene, you are more likely to be a thrill seeker, the kind of person who jumps out of airplanes, clambers up frozen waterfalls, or has sex with strangers.

If you have a shorter version of a stretch of DNA that inhibits the serotonin transporter gene on chromosome 17, you are more likely to be neurotic and anxious, the kind of person who can barely function at social gatherings for fear of offending someone or acting like a fool" (
  -Steven Pinker (from his book "The Blank Slate")

The issue of Determinism, genetic or otherwise, has been debated for years going clear back to into antiquity where debates about Nature vs. Nurture flourished right up to the present day, often debated by people who haven’t the faintest idea what they are talking about, and really don’t care to know!   

There is a media company which calls itself D4DR Media. It's logo takes a position in this debate for some unexplained reason, and reads as follows saying : 

“Adventure is in our genes:   If you have a mutated D4DR gene, chances are we’ll meet you on one of our sites.
“D4DR is a human gene, located on chromosome 11. It is (so far) one of the only genes proven to be directly linked to a human personality trait. When the D4DR gene is mutated or elongated, studies have shown that the individual may be more interested in danger, excitement and thrill seeking.”
   

In other words:  ‘A mutated DRD4 gene IS A GOOD THING!  (wink wink!) ?  And, it just happens that  D4DR Media owns and runs ‘Dropzone.com’  ... and the Dropzone Cooper Thread! (Sangiro/Messo in South Afrika)

A more informed and balanced statement about the 'D4DR/DRD4' gene mutation  reads:

The dopamine receptor D4 is a G protein-coupled receptor encoded by the DRD4 gene.[1] As with other dopamine receptor subtypes, the D4 receptor is activated by the neurotransmitter dopamine. It is linked to many neurological and psychiatric diseases including schizophrenia, Parkinsons disease, bipolar disorder, addictive behaviors, and eating disorders such as anorexia nervosa etc. It is also a target for drugs which treat schizophrenia and Parkinson disease. The D4 receptor is considered to be D2-like in which the activated receptor inhibits the enzyme adenylate cyclase, thereby reducing the intracellular concentration of the second messenger cyclic AMP.[2] (wiki)

Some D4DR ‘enthusiasts-cultists’ simply bypass the greater truths above and embellish, even associate the DRD4 mutation with being an ‘entry card’ to the throne of a New Master Race, called The “New Economic Order” (NEO), a patently fascist, racist, apartheid advocating class of people who claim they are destined to rule the World with a New Economic Order ... because of their superiority granted by the presence of the mutated D4DR gene! This New Economic Order based on abnormal D4DR morphology would be a master race of seriously "crazy psychotic" people who run the World - much as Adolf Hitler did! For the good of all Mankind! Children would be taught to run wild in lockstep and skydive, before they could read or write, much as they already do in the Cooper Thread on Dropzone.com!   ;)  :-*

If one subscribes to this D4DR social theory, several things must follow:

(1) D.B. Cooper may have had a mutant form of the DRD4 gene.  That may even be required.

(2) Cooper candidates must qualify by having a mutated D4DR gene. That would include Duane Weber, Kenneth Christiansen, and all the rest – all others who lack a mutant form of the D4DR gene, are eliminated.

(3) The superior investigators of the D.B.  Cooper case who only tell the Truth, all (must) have the mutated D4DR gene.

(4) The Truth of the Cooper case can only be known by people who have the mutated D4DR gene! All others must be banned from the Cooper Discussion because they can only be telling lies - this would include Galen Cook, Sluggo, Meyer Louie, Georger, ... all of those identified as liars by Robert Blevins and Jo Weber ( we know who they are!)

This theory requires that Kenneth Christian had a mutated D4DR gene!

Do gay men generally have the mutated form of the D4DR gene?

 ;) ;)
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Shutter on January 07, 2015, 05:10:04 PM
Basically, it's a "Liberal" oriented site. ?
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on January 07, 2015, 05:19:27 PM
Let me give a simpler form of the above post -

Some people advocate that all extreme sports & related behaviors are based in a 'mutated D4DR gene' (the dopamine receptor gene). That includes skydiving, rock climbing, diving, bungee cord dropping, high wire walking and acrobatics, etc. This was first cited in an article in Nature back in 1996. http://www.nature.com/ng/journal/v12/n1/abs/ng0196-78.html

The people who own and run the Dropzone DB Cooper Thread advocate that position on their website: http://www.d4drmedia.com/

According to that theory DB Cooper had a mutated form of the D4DR gene.

Any Cooper candidate must also have that trait in their genetic profile, according to this theory.

What form will Christiansen's D4DR gene show?

A mutated DRD4 gene is also associated with psychotic-criminal behavior, cited by a number of researchers.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopamine_receptor_D4. There is a vast literature on this subject.


Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Shutter on January 07, 2015, 05:26:25 PM
I understand the above. I was basing my opinion on the (NEO) comment
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on January 07, 2015, 05:29:52 PM
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Basically, it's a "Liberal" oriented site. ?

Liberal? 

"If you have a mutated D4DR gene, chances are we'll meet you on one of our sites. ..... "D4DR is a human gene, located on chromosome 11. It is (so far) one of the only genes proven to be directly linked to a human personality trait. When the D4DR gene is mutated or elongated, studies have shown that the individual may be more interested in danger, excitement and thrill seeking."    http://web.archive.org/web/20110101180326/http://www.d4drmedia.com/d4dr.html

The phrase " proven to be directly linked to a human personality trait." is completely misleading. Other traits which have also " proven to be directly linked to a human personality trait" include schizophrenia, psychotic behaviors, etc etc etc...  ! 

The website D4DR is passing bad science! It's that simple. So in that sense, yes it's LIBERAL!

What it is is misleading. Why would one even include something as controversial as this unless there was an agenda behind it?

Did KC have a mutated D4DR gene?

Do all paratroopers/skydivers etc have a mutant D4DR gene?

[edit] Do you know, for example, that the supposed association between polymorphic DRD4 and 'thrill seeking hobbies' mention in the original 1996 article, only applied to a mere 4% of the sample population studied!!!! That is hardly a ringing endorsement of nature over nurture@! Does D4DR Media mention this? Hell no! They probably don't even know that small fact. Or care -

There is literally nothing about the D4DR debate that has anything to do with running a sports media website, in the first place. Why don't they advertise Cold Fusion too and associate that with some gene? A natural inclination genetically spawned to rub your butt with your hands while dropping at 120mph, to create energy to warm your ass up too! It isn't even clever imho.

       



Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on January 07, 2015, 05:37:12 PM
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I understand the above. I was basing my opinion on the (NEO) comment

One stance of the "New Economic Order" is that it is based on people who have a mutant D4DR gene.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_economic_order
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Robert99 on January 07, 2015, 06:10:41 PM
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I understand the above. I was basing my opinion on the (NEO) comment

One stance of the "New Economic Order" is that it is based on people who have a mutant D4DR gene.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_economic_order

Georger, Are you familiar with the Warrior Gene (Monoamine Oxidase A) DNA test offered by FTDNA, who describes it as being a "cocktail party" test and I think they are right.  I am familiar with some people who have this specific Warrior Gene and there is no correlation whatsoever between the test results and the predicted behavior.

Robert99
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on January 08, 2015, 01:50:00 AM
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I understand the above. I was basing my opinion on the (NEO) comment

One stance of the "New Economic Order" is that it is based on people who have a mutant D4DR gene.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_economic_order

Georger, Are you familiar with the Warrior Gene (Monoamine Oxidase A) DNA test offered by FTDNA, who describes it as being a "cocktail party" test and I think they are right.  I am familiar with some people who have this specific Warrior Gene and there is no correlation whatsoever between the test results and the predicted behavior.

Robert99
 

Yes I am familiar with this debate. People have been looking for simple explanations for complex things, for a very long time. Every ideology and religion has a prescription. Genes have replaced bat wings, toad eyeballs, and chicken livers on some people's lists of "how to explain and control everything in life". It is all junk science and Ideology. Real genetic science on the other hand, tries to do things like 'get severed nerve endings to grow and find their correct cellular targets and reconnect', 'turn on nerve cells to reconnect appropriately to transplant tissue', 'activate and direct stem cells to become functioning insulin producing pancreatic cells', 'get damaged brain tissue to repair and relearn' .......... small concrete jobs like that! That is a light year away in kind and purpose, from claiming one has discovered one gene that will direct a person to vote Democratic vs Republican! One is ideology. The other is Science.

As to the Warrior Gene you might enjoy this:  http://www.femitheist.net/2014/07/monoamine-oxidase-the-war-over-warrior.html.  This article seems to cover all of the basic issues in play.

Keep in mind, genetics is a very young science. And science itself is very young in a newly emerged sentient species, namely ourselves. And the average time of a person to learn and work in this fields is very short ... it is very easy to be impatient.
 :)
 





     
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on May 13, 2015, 11:19:04 PM
Someone says: "Considering DNA can't be guaranteed if it came from the hijacker, finger print should make a better point."

Well the first part is virtually untrue. How you ask?  Do some reading about dna/mtdna analysis.

Yepper comrade!  :)


Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Shutter on May 13, 2015, 11:28:32 PM
I haven't been there in a while. I'll have to start going to the library to catch up on what's going on over there  :D :D :D :D the last time I looked the mod called someone a scumbag, and then they complained that you called the new guy an idiot?? seems the facts just fly out of that place  :D :D :D
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: EVickiW on May 20, 2015, 11:53:43 PM
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Someone says: "Considering DNA can't be guaranteed if it came from the hijacker, finger print should make a better point."

Well the first part is virtually untrue. How you ask?  Do some reading about dna/mtdna analysis.

Yepper comrade!  :)

According to this story on the Oklahoma news, the FBI has a new fingerprint system in place.

From the story http://www.newson6.com/story/29097922/new-fingerprint-technology-helping-solve-oklahoma-cold-cases

" AFIS on steroids; a fingerprinting system that is three times more accurate than the old one and can also match palm prints, and it's helping solve old cases.

The Next Generation Identification system, or NGI, is a major upgrade to the FBI's fingerprint system...."


After I read the story...I looked here...http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/fingerprints_biometrics/ngi

C'mon FBI...Run the unknown latents from the plane!!!
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on May 21, 2015, 01:04:06 AM
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Someone says: "Considering DNA can't be guaranteed if it came from the hijacker, finger print should make a better point."

Well the first part is virtually untrue. How you ask?  Do some reading about dna/mtdna analysis.

Yepper comrade!  :)

According to this story on the Oklahoma news, the FBI has a new fingerprint system in place.

From the story http://www.newson6.com/story/29097922/new-fingerprint-technology-helping-solve-oklahoma-cold-cases

" AFIS on steroids; a fingerprinting system that is three times more accurate than the old one and can also match palm prints, and it's helping solve old cases.

The Next Generation Identification system, or NGI, is a major upgrade to the FBI's fingerprint system...."


After I read the story...I looked here...http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/fingerprints_biometrics/ngi

C'mon FBI...Run the unknown latents from the plane!!!

+1 ;)
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Shutter on May 21, 2015, 07:04:47 AM
If the show Atlas is trying to promote gets off the ground, it would be a good avenue to possible wake the FBI up if any of them end up watching the program..?
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on August 23, 2015, 03:58:40 PM
Blevins has recently proclaimed:

THEY replied they wanted to see the video first, and thanked me for making it public at YouTube. After several agents viewed it, they told me to go ahead and send them the printed report, but NOT the Lyle Christiansen DNA stuff. I did as they asked, but included a DVD containing all investigative files created from the start on Kenny and Company, up to the present day.

On top of that, if I have this right, Blev is also saying: Cooper left the tie behind: because he knew any forensic evidence on the tie would point away from him! That includes dna according to Rev. Blevins!  :)

Well, here we go again.

The primary forensic tool in the 1970s was finger print analysis, not dna. There would have been no basis in reality for Mr. Cooper to be concerned about his dna in 1971, any more than he would have been concerned about his Buddhist Assprint in the Fifteenth Dimension! So, Blevins is inventing a straw man once again.

And, it was a well known fact (and still is) that lifting fingerprints off fabric, is a difficult at best.

Moreover, attributing such lofty thinking to Blevin's candidate Kenny Christiansen is a leap of faithe not even The Lofty Rev. Blevins can make, from his his podium in obscurity!  :)

As for the rest of Blevin's 'gobblewobble', ... who can believe anything Mr. Sham-Wow Blevins says?

Mister Blevins should stick to dominoes and tiddlywinks and leave the heavy lifting in the Cooper case to children.

 :-\ :-* :P 

Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Shutter on August 23, 2015, 04:41:08 PM
It appears that he is trying to keep the story going. if he knew the DNA wasn't any good why did he go through the hoops? if they told him not to give them the DNA, why does he show it as part of his evidence? did he even go into the FBI office? I  said a while back he would use some sort of clause to get around this!!

The best one I liked reading was the bullshit story about bullet fragments in his arm (recently) even though you can spot the bump on his arm from over a year ago. when bullets ricochet it doesn't split up into pieces. the mushroom ball comes at you, but not at the speed of breaking skin (close range or rifle different story). we were testing bulletproof glass at a pawnshop I worked at in the 80's. several times the bullet bounced back just above our heads. this is just another whopper story just like the motorcycle accident...(lies)

He also confesses about how many people really came to his little show at the theater on Auburn Days. he went on and on about packing the house while on the DZ, but now admits only about 50 people showed up out of over 200. 

He is down to one poster over there (public has spoken) and that's his moderator who is supposed to control hatred, name calling, trolling etc. but calls people "scumbag, low life's etc. his "most prolific poster" is now gone. he must of left in "a quick-fast New York hurry"  :) that poster didn't work both sides, he was honest with his opinions. they don't fit in over there.

I don't mind discussing him every once in a while, but he loves to fill his forum up with his hatred, and for a lack of a better word, I'll use his famous word... lies!

Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: sailshaw on August 23, 2015, 05:01:07 PM
Shutter:  I believe DB used airplane cement over his fingerprints so they would not leave any prints behind on the plane. However, I believe this case can be solved by looking at the DNA FROM UNDER THE ENVELOPE FLAPS AND STAMPS ON THE FOUR LETTERS SENT TO THE FOUR NEWSPAPERS JUST FOLOWING NORJAK. AND COMPARING WITH WHAT THE FBI HAS OF SHERIDAN PETERSON, THEY WILL HAVE THEIR MATCH AND THE CASE WILL BE BLOWN WIDE OPEN. So close and simple to do.

PS Kenney C. was only 5ft 8in and too short to be Cooper.

Bob Sailshaw
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Shutter on August 23, 2015, 07:29:05 PM
I don't know sailshaw, I'm not sold on the letters coming from Cooper. I would tend to think he would sign them by Dan Cooper...
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Shutter on August 23, 2015, 07:55:14 PM
Quote
The primary forensic tool in the 1970s was finger print analysis, not dna

Most criminals don't look that far ahead wondering what will get them 40 years down the road. I seriously doubt the FBI is ruling out the tie because it might not be his. they might question if it's his DNA (one of the donors) but I doubt they dismiss the clip due to it possibly not being his.

If this was the case, why did they check DNA on Marla's case, or any other suspect. all of the sudden they stopped when KC comes pulling in?
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on August 23, 2015, 11:31:44 PM
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Quote
The primary forensic tool in the 1970s was finger print analysis, not dna

Most criminals don't look that far ahead wondering what will get them 40 years down the road. I seriously doubt the FBI is ruling out the tie because it might not be his. they might question if it's his DNA (one of the donors) but I doubt they dismiss the clip due to it possibly not being his.

If this was the case, why did they check DNA on Marla's case, or any other suspect. all of the sudden they stopped when KC comes pulling in?

Obviously the FBI has a partial CODIS profile of someone, or some thing!  :)   8)




Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Shutter on August 23, 2015, 11:40:31 PM
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Quote
The primary forensic tool in the 1970s was finger print analysis, not dna

Most criminals don't look that far ahead wondering what will get them 40 years down the road. I seriously doubt the FBI is ruling out the tie because it might not be his. they might question if it's his DNA (one of the donors) but I doubt they dismiss the clip due to it possibly not being his.

If this was the case, why did they check DNA on Marla's case, or any other suspect. all of the sudden they stopped when KC comes pulling in?

Obviously the FBI has a partial CODIS profile of someone, or some thing!  :)  Maybe its The Mad Banshee from Ulan Bator or the Wild Man of Borneo who may have a relative at Auburn, WA?  :-* :o


Basically, we dismiss the description, and the DNA....they have there man  ;D ;D ;D ;D he has wrapped this crime up. it's my understanding he will also solve the Cossey murder. personally, I would like to see him on the Hoffa case, and Jack the Ripper. with some luck he can resolve that pesky JFK problem too....maybe even help the Marshal's close the Alcatraz case. he's wasting his talent with two part time jobs when he could be America's cold case crime solver  :D ;) :)
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on August 23, 2015, 11:45:05 PM
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It appears that he is trying to keep the story going. if he knew the DNA wasn't any good why did he go through the hoops? if they told him not to give them the DNA, why does he show it as part of his evidence? did he even go into the FBI office? I  said a while back he would use some sort of clause to get around this!!

The best one I liked reading was the bullshit story about bullet fragments in his arm (recently) even though you can spot the bump on his arm from over a year ago. when bullets ricochet it doesn't split up into pieces. the mushroom ball comes at you, but not at the speed of breaking skin (close range or rifle different story). we were testing bulletproof glass at a pawnshop I worked at in the 80's. several times the bullet bounced back just above our heads. this is just another whopper story just like the motorcycle accident...(lies)

He also confesses about how many people really came to his little show at the theater on Auburn Days. he went on and on about packing the house while on the DZ, but now admits only about 50 people showed up out of over 200. 

He is down to one poster over there (public has spoken) and that's his moderator who is supposed to control hatred, name calling, trolling etc. but calls people "scumbag, low life's etc. his "most prolific poster" is now gone. he must of left in "a quick-fast New York hurry"  :) that poster didn't work both sides, he was honest with his opinions. they don't fit in over there.

I don't mind discussing him every once in a while, but he loves to fill his forum up with his hatred, and for a lack of a better word, I'll use his famous word... lies!

Robert M Blevins has managed to make a laughing stock out of the City of Auburn, Washington. Auburn now clearly ranks as an educationally deprived gulag where any schmuck can stand up in front of the world and spout total bullshit .... for longer than five micro-seconds!

Congrats to the City of Auburn WA for firmly establishing its seedy underbelly ! 

Maybe we can send a UNESCO mission to Auburn to help those deprived people out!?

Shame on Auburn WA and their homeboy, Robert M. Blevins!  >:(
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Shutter on August 24, 2015, 12:09:37 AM
So, what's next, the removal of the partial fingerprints? why didn't they mention that?

1) remove DNA
2) Description probably wrong (shorter guy)
3) Fingerprints are partials...they need to disappear too (possibility of a false hit)

They should be able to narrow it down to people missing that crazy day. if you don't match the description what so ever, and were possibly missing during that time period, you should be in the front of the line as a Cooper suspect. seems logical to me?
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on August 24, 2015, 01:03:16 AM
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So, what's next, the removal of the partial fingerprints? why didn't they mention that?

1) remove DNA
2) Description probably wrong (shorter guy)
3) Fingerprints are partials...they need to disappear too (possibility of a false hit)

They should be able to narrow it down to people missing that crazy day. if you don't match the description what so ever, and were possibly missing during that time period, you should be in the front of the line as a Cooper suspect. seems logical to me?

Imho, its pointless to even speculate about any of this, without more credible data from somewhere and the only source that matters would be the FBI - which may never be forthcoming. Even informed speculation is pointless.

One thing is almost dead-certain, however:  in 1971 there were only a handful of people in the USA who had any credible familiarity with the whole subject of human genetics, and dna in particular, such that dna was NOT in the forensic arsenal of any law enforcement agency much less involved in the DB Cooper case until many years after the fact of the crime.

With that factual reality it would have been virtually impossible for Cooper to have based decisions about his tie based on dna, as Blevins contends! That is preposterous. Just one more Blevins 'preposterous posturing'.  It's crazy on it's face and only points once again to how uninformed and unrealistic Mr. Blevins is. It's total nonsense.

Tom Kaye must be laughing his ass off at Blevins' latest theatre of the absurd.

Let's put this issue in broader factual perspective: Cooper left all kinds a of evidence not just his tie! He left his prints on a number of objects in a number of places. He left physical evidence of himself - period. He left his cigarette butts! Cooper left evidence all over the God damned place!@  Whether law enforcement did a good job collecting it, preserving it, and testing it - is a separate matter entirely.

So, Mr. Blevins is just blowing more smoke here. His contentions and conjectures are based on total fiction. Just like everything else he has either said, made up, or lied about.

Cooper did not leave his tie behind as a 'plant' intended to derail investigators, while also leaving other viable evidence of himself. Anything and everything Cooper left behind, whether intentional or otherwise, is evidence of Mr. DB Cooper himself! Who he was, where he has been, et cetera ... all of which goes back to Cooper's personal identity in the world. If law enforcement/investigators screwed that up and failed to arrest an prosecute Cooper, then that is their story to explain.

Case closed.


 

 

Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on August 24, 2015, 03:37:40 AM
CODIS (Combined DNA Index System) is the FBI's program that allows forensic DNA laboratories to create and search databases of DNA profiles. The federal DNA Identification Act of 1994 authorized the FBI to create CODIS and set national standards for forensic DNA testing, 23 years after the DB Cooper Hijacking.
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Shutter on August 24, 2015, 06:23:28 AM
If Cooper was that careful about leaving evidence behind the butts would have been retrieved as well as the cup he drank from. I'm sure he had no clue that the future could get him with those items. with the exception of the tie, I think that he left with everything he entered the plane with. the notes, briefcase, went out the back of the plane with, or without him at some point in time. when and where seems to be the best evidence yet to be found!

Mr. Blevins claims to give it to you straight from the source? perhaps he's right. it comes straight from him!
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: sailshaw on August 24, 2015, 10:19:08 AM
Shutter:  You say"I don't know sailshaw, I'm not sold on the letters coming from Cooper. I would tend to think he would sign them by Dan Cooper...

I say:   Letter #3 made me change my mind that the letters were really from Sheridan Peterson/Cooper because the salutation was his mantra when he stayed at my home for one month. "The system that beats the system".

Bob Sailshaw
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on August 24, 2015, 03:16:58 PM
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If Cooper was that careful about leaving evidence behind the butts would have been retrieved as well as the cup he drank from. I'm sure he had no clue that the future could get him with those items. with the exception of the tie, I think that he left with everything he entered the plane with. the notes, briefcase, went out the back of the plane with, or without him at some point in time. when and where seems to be the best evidence yet to be found!

Mr. Blevins claims to give it to you straight from the source? perhaps he's right. it comes straight from him!

Yes. He asks for his note back then turns around and leaves other important evidence! Contradiction in terms. Likewise, given the amount of time he spent on the time, his total activity over a wide area of the plane, he would have had to be very careful not to leave evidence because by the end when he bails he would have had to mop up his evidence from a large area - almost impossible. Cooper seems to be kind of myopic in his perspective? He is covering some of his tracks but not others over a wide area. A kind of myopic perfectionist ?

Frankly, from a forensic point of view the man is a SLOB! But, this was 1971, not today. He had a much wider latitude to operate in in 1971 vs. in today's forensic-computer universe. It's strange he would ask for his note back while leaving his cigarette butts and his prints? Did he fear somebody recognizing his hand writing or the paper?

Maybe in a similar way Blevins fears being recognized as the "source" of everything her says!? Weird is as Weird does!

 :D :)   
   
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: 377 on August 24, 2015, 05:35:58 PM
Georger is right about 1971, no criminals of that era were worried about leaving DNA evidence. They sweated leaving fingerprints and blood samples, but not DNA.

I have strong doubts that the FBI has really lost the cig butts. I can think of some compelling reasons for them to have Cooper (if he is still alive) think that they have no conclusive DNA evidence that links him to the crime.

The tie DNA source is believed to be Cooper, but there is no hard evidence that proves it. Also, the FBI says it is partial and therefore can only exclude a suspect not place him on the plane with certainty.

So Cooper might think he is fairly safe. The FBI's negligent loss of potentially exculpatory evidence (the butts) dooms a prosecution unless there is other compelling evidence such as fingerprints.

I have dealt with the FBI while defending criminal cases. They are not idiots, far from it actually. Back then quite a few FBI SAs were lawyers. They were careful about preserving evidence and documenting the chain of custody. They knew the evidence handling protocol and followed it. They knew the consequences of contaminating or losing evidence and the effect it could have on their careers.

Failure to collect evidence is not nearly as damaging to a prosecution as is taking the evidence and then losing it.

Sure, the butts could have been lost but I have this nagging hunch that says they still have them.

377
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Shutter on August 24, 2015, 05:39:01 PM
Quote
Frankly, from a forensic point of view the man is a SLOB! But, this was 1971, not today.

It brings up that pesky question about the dummy chute. he didn't care about the tie, or the other back chute, but decides to throw out the dummy chute? it appear he left behind things of no matter to him, or to the coppers and took the things he felt was important. functional chutes, the briefcase (perhaps loaded with his prints all over it) the notes, and the money then off into the wild dark yonder  :D

Maybe he opened the briefcase tossing the contents out....I don't know?
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Shutter on August 24, 2015, 05:43:15 PM
Quote
documenting the chain of custody.

I believe that would be a good reason they didn't accept Lyle's DNA sample. they broke the chain of custody. he doesn't make any sense. he said the FBI told him not to send the DNA, and yet he brings it to them, then claims to ask them why they didn't accept it when he got back home? they couldn't explain while he was there?


Quote
Sure, the butts could have been lost but I have this nagging hunch that says they still have them.

what would be the benefit of concealing this? it might be a good move if they were chasing a guy who would end up actually doing hard time for the crime. I doubt he would go back to jail after bailing out, oops, I mean bonding out  ;D :D ;)
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: 377 on August 24, 2015, 06:49:38 PM
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Quote
documenting the chain of custody.

I believe that would be a good reason they didn't accept Lyle's DNA sample. they broke the chain of custody. he doesn't make any sense. he said the FBI told him not to send the DNA, and yet he brings it to them, then claims to ask them why they didn't accept it when he got back home? they couldn't explain while he was there?


Quote
Sure, the butts could have been lost but I have this nagging hunch that says they still have them.


what would be the benefit of concealing this? it might be a good move if they were chasing a guy who would end up actually doing hard time for the crime. I doubt he would go back to jail after bailing out, oops, I mean bonding out  ;D :D ;)

Sometimes law enforcement will withhold a key piece of evidence so that they have a way to check whether a suspect was really at the scene of the crime. Perhaps there is something about the butts that serves this purpose. Maybe they were not the brand or type (filter vs non filter) the FBI has publicly stated they were. Who knows?

If they really lost the butts and have no other conclusive physical evidence then an accused Cooper could win dismissal based on prosecutorial misconduct. namely failure to preserve potentially exculpatory evidence.

377
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: 377 on August 24, 2015, 06:57:38 PM
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Shutter:  You say"I don't know sailshaw, I'm not sold on the letters coming from Cooper. I would tend to think he would sign them by Dan Cooper...

I say:   Letter #3 made me change my mind that the letters were really from Sheridan Peterson/Cooper because the salutation was his mantra when he stayed at my home for one month. "The system that beats the system".

Bob Sailshaw

I still marvel at Al Di's sleuthing the source of the letters' magazine cutouts. Who is Al Di? Could he have possibly have been the author of the letters?

The cutout that says "The system that beats the system" was not pieced together from individual diversely located  words but was clipped in its entirety from a KLH stereo ad in Playboy magazine. Might have just caught the author's eye rather than have been a phrase he had used previously in speaking (which Sailshaw refers to as Sheridan Peterson's "mantra").

Sooner or later we will be reading Sheridan's obituary. Sure wish he could be interviewed.

377


Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Shutter on August 24, 2015, 07:17:37 PM
It's highly possible he thought the quote look, and sounded good. I'm not sold that it meant anything. I've had some people poking around trying to find out who Aldi is. something was noticed by them, but nothing has been confirmed. I have a name, but I'm not sold as to it being Aldi.
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Shutter on August 24, 2015, 10:05:30 PM
Quote
Sometimes law enforcement will withhold a key piece of evidence so that they have a way to check whether a suspect was really at the scene of the crime.

I agree, but again, I think it's too late in the game for that. the testing was done decades after the fact. today, yes. 30 some years later with holding new evidence back, I'm not so sure, but possible I guess....I think they already had things in place with holding parts back. they would be adding to them?

I believe all the flight data did a Houdini as well  :(
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on August 24, 2015, 11:40:24 PM
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Shutter:  You say"I don't know sailshaw, I'm not sold on the letters coming from Cooper. I would tend to think he would sign them by Dan Cooper...

I say:   Letter #3 made me change my mind that the letters were really from Sheridan Peterson/Cooper because the salutation was his mantra when he stayed at my home for one month. "The system that beats the system".

Bob Sailshaw

I still marvel at Al Di's sleuthing the source of the letters' magazine cutouts. Who is Al Di? Could he have possibly have been the author of the letters?

The cutout that says "The system that beats the system" was not pieced together from individual diversely located  words but was clipped in its entirety from a KLH stereo ad in Playboy magazine. Might have just caught the author's eye rather than have been a phrase he had used previously in speaking (which Sailshaw refers to as Sheridan Peterson's "mantra").

Sooner or later we will be reading Sheridan's obituary. Sure wish he could be interviewed.

377

Who is Al Di?

Muhammad? El Dion?  Charley?  Sam? Miriam? Pedro?


Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Shutter on August 24, 2015, 11:41:56 PM
He's they guy who posted the video's about the Playboy clippings from the letters..

How do we know he's not a family member of the original writer?
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on August 25, 2015, 04:01:43 AM
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He's they guy who posted the video's about the Playboy clippings from the letters..

How do we know he's not a family member of the original writer?

Yes I know who you are talking about - mine was a joke. Who would pick Al Di as a nym? Witch Hazel?

Al di is an Arabic surname. It also has roots in Aramaic (Northern Sinai Script). And of course the current generation is involved in Iraq- middle east etc.  Is this nym an appeal to or from the Iraq generation? Who knows but the nym is timely if not Al Di Liscious!

salam b'boquer! Happy shopping at Al Di's: https://www.aldi.us/
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on August 26, 2015, 04:14:57 PM
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Sooner or later we will be reading Sheridan's obituary. Sure wish he could be interviewed.

377

LMNO productions tells me that they want to interview Petey. They've got plenty of cuties, too, so it could happen...
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: 377 on August 26, 2015, 07:10:46 PM
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Sooner or later we will be reading Sheridan's obituary. Sure wish he could be interviewed.

377

LMNO productions tells me that they want to interview Petey. They've got plenty of cuties, too, so it could happen...

That's the key. It worked for the FBI.

If one of them were to convince Sheridan that she was a DB Cooper groupie, might he confess?

377
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on August 27, 2015, 03:49:55 PM
I would.
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: 377 on August 27, 2015, 04:42:50 PM
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I would.

 ;D
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on September 30, 2015, 06:21:08 PM
Top Ten Norjak Questions for the FBI

1. Cigarette Butts:

- Where are they?
- If lost, is anyone looking for them?
- Were they used for DNA analysis, as alleged by Pat Forman in a NBC-News broadcast
- If so, where is the paper-work?


2. Ground Search

- Why was the initial ground search out-sourced to Sheriff Departments?
- Why weren't there check-points and road-blocks established once LZ-A was determined, understood to be approximately 11 pm, November 24, 1971?
- Why was the ground search called off on Monday, November 29, 1971?
- Why did Seattle FO tell FBI DC that there was too much snow on the ground to continue, when there was no snow reported in the LZ-A by the Sheriff's officials.


3. Clip-on Tie

- Why did it enter the Seattle evidence cache four days after the hijacking?
- Where was it for that time?
- Was the chain of custody broken?


4. Reno, fingerprints

- Who conducted the fingerprint search aboard 305 on November 24, 1971
- What was obtained in that search?
- Why weren't the “In-flight” magazines gathered into evidence?


5. Reno, duties of FBI agents

- Memories of Las Vegas-based special agents on evidence retrieval duties are in conflict with each other, and Bernie Rhodes writes that they seemed to be “victims of some strange post-hypnotic suggestion.” What happened?
- Other agents, such as Tom Dempsey, were unable to tell SLC SAC Russ Calame what duties they performed that night. How come?
- Did MKULTRA play a part in Norjak?


6.  SOG and 727s

- What was the nature of the investigation of SOG troopers regarding Norjak?
- What was the role of 727s in the Vietnam War?
- Were they used to deploy soldiers into combat?
- Did any units utilize techniques similar to those of DB Cooper, ie: jumping from a 727?


7.  Money retrieval at Tina Bar

- How many shards of money were found at Tina Bar?
- Where are they, currently?
- Did the FBI find part of DB Cooper's briefcase at Tina Bar, as reported by PIO Dorwin Schreuder?
- Why was the money found in a highly compressed state?
- What kinds of follow-up were done along the Columbia River, ie: fishermen interviewed, other sites dug-up, etc.?


8.  Richard McCoy

- What was he doing in Las Vegas on November 24, 1971?


9.  Radar findings

- What did SAGE radar record the night of November 24, 1971.
- Did the F-106s following Flight 305 have any radar findings of Cooper or his jump? If not, why not?


10.  Earl Cossey

- What was the role of Earl Cossey in the Norjak investigation?
- Did he own the “back” parachutes delivered to the hijacker?
- Did Cossey influence the FBI's perspective that Cooper was an inexperienced skydiver?
- Why was Cossey murdered?
      
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Shutter on September 30, 2015, 06:42:20 PM
A lot to soak in..... :D
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: andrade1812 on September 30, 2015, 07:52:33 PM
Quote
8.  Richard McCoy

- What was he doing in Las Vegas on November 24, 1971?

Probably what most people do in Las Vegas?
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Shutter on September 30, 2015, 08:00:49 PM
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Quote
8.  Richard McCoy

- What was he doing in Las Vegas on November 24, 1971?

Probably what most people do in Las Vegas?


I believe the problem is his family stated he was home that evening....I think a credit card links him to Vegas.
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: 377 on September 30, 2015, 08:01:26 PM
op Ten Norjak Questions for the FBI

1. Cigarette Butts:

- Where are they? Lost (allegedly) but 377 has his suspicions...
- If lost, is anyone looking for them? No
- Were they used for DNA analysis, as alleged by Pat Forman in a NBC-News broadcast? No evidence to support this claim
- If so, where is the paper-work? None known.


2. Ground Search

- Why was the initial ground search out-sourced to Sheriff Departments? The FBI SAs are white shoe guys. It was muddy out there.  ;)  Army got involved too.
- Why weren't there check-points and road-blocks established once LZ-A was determined, understood to be approximately 11 pm, November 24, 1971? In hindsight this probably should have been done. We can only speculate as to whether it would have proven effective.
- Why was the ground search called off on Monday, November 29, 1971? Nothing found, difficult search, time to go home.
- Why did Seattle FO tell FBI DC that there was too much snow on the ground to continue, when there was no snow reported in the LZ-A by the Sheriff's officials. See above.


3. Clip-on Tie

- Why did it enter the Seattle evidence cache four days after the hijacking? Took some time for the FBI to find bismuth, pure titanium and spun aluminum to plant on Cooper's tie.
- Where was it for that time? Various SAs wore it to work as an inside joke.
- Was the chain of custody broken? Broken? It was demolished.


4. Reno, fingerprints

- Who conducted the fingerprint search aboard 305 on November 24, 1971 Unknown
- What was obtained in that search? Various non passenger prints with no hits in FBI print database.
- Why weren't the “In-flight” magazines gathered into evidence? FBI psych profilers concluded that skyjackers would not read them. FBI profilers are always right.


5. Reno, duties of FBI agents

- Memories of Las Vegas-based special agents on evidence retrieval duties are in conflict with each other, and Bernie Rhodes writes that they seemed to be “victims of some strange post-hypnotic suggestion.” What happened? It was just the Vortex near field effects, no hypnosis involved.
- Other agents, such as Tom Dempsey, were unable to tell SLC SAC Russ Calame what duties they performed that night. How come? Vortex effects.
- Did MKULTRA play a part in Norjak? No. Once the hookers got hired, the MKULTRA field work shut down completely. Snowmman was probably involved.


6.  SOG and 727s

- What was the nature of the investigation of SOG troopers regarding Norjak? None. FBI knows that airline employees and Special Forces guys don't commit these kinds of crimes.
- What was the role of 727s in the Vietnam War? Test airdrops of jumpers and palletized cargo over Thailand from Southern Air 727. No provable combat use in Viet Nam.
- Were they used to deploy soldiers into combat? No evidence has been found that proves 727s were used for airdrops over Viet Nam
- Did any units utilize techniques similar to those of DB Cooper, ie: jumping from a 727? Unknown.


7.  Money retrieval at Tina Bar

- How many shards of money were found at Tina Bar? Conflicting reports ranging from none to vast fields of shards. Dispute as to all on surface or distributed through some depth of sand.
- Where are they, currently? If they exist, no public information as to where they now reside.

- Did the FBI find part of DB Cooper's briefcase at Tina Bar, as reported by PIO Dorwin Schreuder? No, appears to be a rumor or distorted memory.
- Why was the money found in a highly compressed state? Quantify highly compressed. If you wet a bundle of dry circulated twenties the height of the stack will be reduced.
- What kinds of follow-up were done along the Columbia River, ie: fishermen interviewed, other sites dug-up, etc.? Not known. Rumors of prior currency find by the "fishing boys" has not yet been proven true.


8.  Richard McCoy

- What was he doing in Las Vegas on November 24, 1971? Depends on who you ask. Calame and Rhodes sure have a strong opinion.


9.  Radar findings

- What did SAGE radar record the night of November 24, 1971. Tracked all airline flights in the area but did not display Coopers exit due to data field blocking out any echo right next to plane target.
- Did the F-106s following Flight 305 have any radar findings of Cooper or his jump? If not, why not? F 106 chase planes had the Hughes MA-1 radar-telemetry based  fire control system and possibly IRST (IR search and track) . Their forward looking targeting radar proved useless/ineffective in tracking Cooper's flight. SAGE data link, if established, didnt help either. A lumbering C 130 freighter with only weather radar was able to find Coopers plane and chase it. Bet those fighter jocks were embarrassed when the Herc trash haulers performed an intercept that they failed at


10.  Earl Cossey

- What was the role of Earl Cossey in the Norjak investigation? He was the FBI's go to guy on all things parachute
- Did he own the “back” parachutes delivered to the hijacker? Nope. At least not the two that Norman owned. Thanks to Bruce we know that for sure.
- Did Cossey influence the FBI's perspective that Cooper was an inexperienced skydiver? Yes, he sure did.
- Why was Cossey murdered? Unknown. My hunch is it had nothing to do with the Cooper case. He was a frequent gambler. carried cash, but motive and perp unknown.
     
« Last Edit: Today at 06:22:06 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Shutter on September 30, 2015, 09:05:06 PM
I don't think Cossey's murder had anything to do with this case. he was known to have large sums of money on him, probably did a lot of bragging. he was a known gambler as 377 pointed out above. I think that's what got him into trouble in the first place. letting people know personal things such as carrying large sums of money isn't the smartest thing to do. it puts a huge target on you.

I don't think the "Burglary" was random. they usually don't graduate to murder, they bolt out of the area as fast as they can. Blevins goes on and on about other burglaries in the area, but they have nothing to do with what happened to Cossey IMO.

The whole thing is very unfortunate, but it's not uncommon, unfortunately ....
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on October 01, 2015, 02:43:25 AM
377, could you please expand on that part about hookers and Snowmman, please?  Thanks.
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on October 01, 2015, 02:49:03 AM
McCoy in Vegas Quiz

So, what was Richie doing at McCarran and the Trop on the Wednesday night in question?

1. Gambling, as his wife and family later stated.
2. Passing through town on his way home from hijacking 305, as per Calame and Rhodes.
3. Passing through town on his way home after helping Dan Cooper get out of the woods near Ariel, Amboy, Camas, Woodland, etc...
4. Following orders from his MKULTRA minders before the hookers arrived.
5. Practicing his remote viewing skills before Snowmman arrived.
6. All of the above
7. None of the above.
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: smokin99 on October 03, 2015, 12:24:53 AM
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4. Reno, fingerprints

- Who conducted the fingerprint search aboard 305 on November 24, 1971 Unknown
- What was obtained in that search? Various non passenger prints with no hits in FBI print database.
- Why weren't the “In-flight” magazines gathered into evidence? FBI psych profilers concluded that skyjackers would not read them. FBI profilers are always right.

« Last Edit: Today at 06:22:0 PM by Bruce A. Smith »

Geoffrey Grey posted a picture of an in-flight mag with fingerprint from the files so we can probably assume that at least one in-flight mag was gathered.... HERE (http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2011/07/the_curse_of_db_cooper_why_the.html#6) and, on dz, 
Larry Carr (ckret)  said that they got prints off of the magazines..." No fingerprints from the airstairs, in fact no fingerprints recovered from the airplane during the first evidence sweep proved to be of comparison value. On a second sweep some magazines were located in the area of where Cooper had been. These were processed and a few latents were recovered that are of value. "
Whether they ever actually prove to be of value or not is anyone's guess but someone at some point thought they were worth keeping....
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on October 03, 2015, 04:21:03 PM
Thanks, Smok. Again we have conflicting statements. Calame and Rhodes claim that the magazines were not retrieved, and commented upon that goof.

p. 123:

"...(A)gent John Norris...remembers, 'We were criticized by the Bureau for not picking up all the magazines, newspapers, and food containers from the cabin...'"

Also, p. 122:

"Two days later, 26 November 1971, (SAC) Red Campbell received a teletype from the FBI headquarters, confirming their educated appraisal about the smudges: 'Finger prints found on Flight 305 of no value.'"

And, p. 124:

"'No matter how you cut it,' one of the Salt Lake agents said, 'from here on out that bunch in Reno will either have to hang together and stonewall it - or come up with some pretty sophisticated explanations why they let the Reno City police dust that plane for prints, and why those damn magazines never got sent back to the FBI Fingerprint Division.'"
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on October 03, 2015, 04:35:12 PM
At the risk of being a little too fussy, Smok, but I don't see any fingerprint(s) in the pix that GG posted. Do you?

I see a piece of masking tape with a red arrow on it, and a card of some kind with FBI markings on it, and a notation that someone wrote about it being from the inflight mags of 305. What am I missing?
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on October 03, 2015, 04:51:27 PM
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I don't think Cossey's murder had anything to do with this case. he was known to have large sums of money on him, probably did a lot of bragging. he was a known gambler as 377 pointed out above. I think that's what got him into trouble in the first place. letting people know personal things such as carrying large sums of money isn't the smartest thing to do. it puts a huge target on you.

I don't think the "Burglary" was random. they usually don't graduate to murder, they bolt out of the area as fast as they can. Blevins goes on and on about other burglaries in the area, but they have nothing to do with what happened to Cossey IMO.

The whole thing is very unfortunate, but it's not uncommon, unfortunately ....

Very plausible scenario, Shut. But, on the other hand, another scenario must be weighed:

Cossey was seemingly a key player in the unraveling of a major cover-up by the FBI.

So, on balance, how do you see things stacking up? 50-50? 60-40 for a burg gone bad? Pick a number, please!

I'm going for 70-30 for the cover-up. Imagine if Cossey sat own with me and told me the WHOLE truth of what he did and why. Imagine if he told me how the Norjak narrative shifted from Coop being a master criminal with serious skydiving chops to a dumb bunny who died, and Cossey could tell me who in the FBI either asked him to formulate that theory, or to whom he sold the idea.

Bottom Line: How much do you believe a guy who sent the parachutes to the wrong airport?

Further, how much do you trust a LE agency that used that guy as their technical expert for 40 years?

Me, I don't trust them much.
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on October 04, 2015, 12:53:54 AM
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I don't think Cossey's murder had anything to do with this case. he was known to have large sums of money on him, probably did a lot of bragging. he was a known gambler as 377 pointed out above. I think that's what got him into trouble in the first place. letting people know personal things such as carrying large sums of money isn't the smartest thing to do. it puts a huge target on you.

I don't think the "Burglary" was random. they usually don't graduate to murder, they bolt out of the area as fast as they can. Blevins goes on and on about other burglaries in the area, but they have nothing to do with what happened to Cossey IMO.

The whole thing is very unfortunate, but it's not uncommon, unfortunately ....

Very plausible scenario, Shut. But, on the other hand, another scenario must be weighed:

Cossey was seemingly a key player in the unraveling of a major cover-up by the FBI.

So, on balance, how do you see things stacking up? 50-50? 60-40 for a burg gone bad? Pick a number, please!

I'm going for 70-30 for the cover-up. Imagine if Cossey sat own with me and told me the WHOLE truth of what he did and why. Imagine if he told me how the Norjak narrative shifted from Coop being a master criminal with serious skydiving chops to a dumb bunny who died, and Cossey could tell me who in the FBI either asked him to formulate that theory, or to whom he sold the idea.

Bottom Line: How much do you believe a guy who sent the parachutes to the wrong airport?

Further, how much do you trust a LE agency that used that guy as their technical expert for 40 years?

Me, I don't trust them much.

Where do you come with this: used that guy as their technical expert for 40 years ???

They consulted the guy, many times. Various agents but also many others consulted the guy. Just like many have consulted JT over the years! That doesn't make Cossey their sole technical expert for 40 years  !  They consulted lots of others also. I dont recall anyone ever saying officially Cossey was used that guy as their technical expert for 40 years. Like so many things Bruce, I think you have overworked this.
 ::)
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Shutter on October 04, 2015, 12:59:01 AM
I think Cossey is just a centerpiece for the chute part of the crime. they seem to have trusted him, so they continued to use his advice over the years. to me, it's just an unsolved case. it's riddled with mistakes, but I doubt any type of damaging coverup is involved.
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on October 04, 2015, 03:22:36 AM
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Where do you come with this: used that guy as their technical expert for 40 years ???

They consulted the guy, many times. Various agents but also many others consulted the guy. Just like many have consulted JT over the years! That doesn't make Cossey their sole technical expert for 40 years  !  They consulted lots of others also. I dont recall anyone ever saying officially Cossey was used that guy as their technical expert for 40 years. Like so many things Bruce, I think you have overworked this.
 ::)

The FBI referred me to Cossey when the Amboy chute issue arose. Specifically, when I asked the PIO about the chute, she replied, "That's something you should ask Earl Cossey about."

That really put Coss front and center in the Norjak case as a technical expert on parachutes. Perhaps I should have added "for parachutes" in the earlier characterization.

Remember, too, that GG has presented numerous FBI documents that show the major role Cossey played in the investigations every since the early days. First, he advised the feds that they needn't look for a champion skydiver, then went into the "no-pull" crater guy a few years later. Ckret made many references to Cossey, and told us he loved him so much that he "...could have talked with him (Cossey) all day."
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on October 04, 2015, 02:43:13 PM
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Where do you come with this: used that guy as their technical expert for 40 years ???

They consulted the guy, many times. Various agents but also many others consulted the guy. Just like many have consulted JT over the years! That doesn't make Cossey their sole technical expert for 40 years  !  They consulted lots of others also. I dont recall anyone ever saying officially Cossey was used that guy as their technical expert for 40 years. Like so many things Bruce, I think you have overworked this.
 ::)

The FBI referred me to Cossey when the Amboy chute issue arose. Specifically, when I asked the PIO about the chute, she replied, "That's something you should ask Earl Cossey about."

That really put Coss front and center in the Norjak case as a technical expert on parachutes. Perhaps I should have added "for parachutes" in the earlier characterization.

Remember, too, that GG has presented numerous FBI documents that show the major role Cossey played in the investigations every since the early days. First, he advised the feds that they needn't look for a champion skydiver, then went into the "no-pull" crater guy a few years later. Ckret made many references to Cossey, and told us he loved him so much that he "...could have talked with him (Cossey) all day."

You must learn the difference between 'appearances' and 'reality', Bruce!  :)

To suggest that Cossey was the sole authority or source on parachutes for the Seattle FBI, is a strong statement.

So many innuendos, so much promotion, too much conflicting data .... so little time. And of course 'GG' is front and center in your arguments again.  God knows: GG is the source for everthang and all true information in the cosmos!   :) :) :) It's amazing anyone can get their pants on without consulting you and/or 'GG'. Who is the FBI source for zippers?   :o

Or is this just one more episode in the endless TV saga: "Survivor Bullshit" ! ?  :-X
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on October 04, 2015, 02:46:30 PM
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4. Reno, fingerprints

- Who conducted the fingerprint search aboard 305 on November 24, 1971 Unknown
- What was obtained in that search? Various non passenger prints with no hits in FBI print database.
- Why weren't the “In-flight” magazines gathered into evidence? FBI psych profilers concluded that skyjackers would not read them. FBI profilers are always right.

« Last Edit: Today at 06:22:0 PM by Bruce A. Smith »

Geoffrey Grey posted a picture of an in-flight mag with fingerprint from the files so we can probably assume that at least one in-flight mag was gathered.... HERE (http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2011/07/the_curse_of_db_cooper_why_the.html#6) and, on dz, 
Larry Carr (ckret)  said that they got prints off of the magazines..." No fingerprints from the airstairs, in fact no fingerprints recovered from the airplane during the first evidence sweep proved to be of comparison value. On a second sweep some magazines were located in the area of where Cooper had been. These were processed and a few latents were recovered that are of value. "
Whether they ever actually prove to be of value or not is anyone's guess but someone at some point thought they were worth keeping....

Can we see this 'picture of...' or is it for 'GG's' eyes only?  ;D
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on October 04, 2015, 03:40:26 PM
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You must learn the difference between 'appearances' and 'reality', Bruce!  :)

To suggest that Cossey was the sole authority or source on parachutes for the Seattle FBI, is a strong statement.

So many innuendos, so much promotion, too much conflicting data .... so little time. And of course 'GG' is front and center in your arguments again.  God knows: GG is the source for everthang and all true information in the cosmos!   :) :) :) It's amazing anyone can get their pants on without consulting you and/or 'GG'. Who is the FBI source for zippers?   :o

Or is this just one more episode in the endless TV saga: "Survivor Bullshit" ! ?  :-X


Georger, you seem to enjoy putting words into my mouth, or taking my words and expanding them to outrageous heights. I've never claimed that Cossey was the sole expert on parachutes for the FBI. I have said that he was their key expert, a major player in the Norjak investigation, and one that they touted to me and other journalists.

The most important factor, in my view, is how and why the FBI seemed to follow Cossey's turn-around from DB Cooper was a smart and competent skydiver to a jerk.

BTW: You haven't answered my question: Would you trust a guy who says he sent the parachutes to the wrong airport?

Do you?
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on October 04, 2015, 03:53:05 PM
Me and GG:

Ever since GG gave me the wrong telephone number for Bill Mitchell, I hold his words with a great deal of circumspection.

Plus, there are a few other things about GG and Norjak that I question, such as the release of his book during Marla Week, and her surprise appearance at the 2011 Symposium.

But he does provide a lot of information that I don't have access to, so...

BTW: I thought you thought that I was too intimate with Galen!  Now, it's GG?
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on October 04, 2015, 11:44:55 PM
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You must learn the difference between 'appearances' and 'reality', Bruce!  :)

To suggest that Cossey was the sole authority or source on parachutes for the Seattle FBI, is a strong statement.

So many innuendos, so much promotion, too much conflicting data .... so little time. And of course 'GG' is front and center in your arguments again.  God knows: GG is the source for everthang and all true information in the cosmos!   :) :) :) It's amazing anyone can get their pants on without consulting you and/or 'GG'. Who is the FBI source for zippers?   :o

Or is this just one more episode in the endless TV saga: "Survivor Bullshit" ! ?  :-X


Georger, you seem to enjoy putting words into my mouth, or taking my words and expanding them to outrageous heights. I've never claimed that Cossey was the sole expert on parachutes for the FBI. I have said that he was their key expert, a major player in the Norjak investigation, and one that they touted to me and other journalists.

The most important factor, in my view, is how and why the FBI seemed to follow Cossey's turn-around from DB Cooper was a smart and competent skydiver to a jerk.

BTW: You haven't answered my question: Would you trust a guy who says he sent the parachutes to the wrong airport?

Do you?

I've never claimed that Cossey was the sole expert on parachutes for the FBI. I have said that he was their key expert

Sole? Key? Your words - not mine.  :D
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on October 05, 2015, 03:16:25 AM
Okay, Georger, it's time for you to put words in your mouth - tell us what you think of Cossey. Did he own the chutes? Why did the FBI bring him into the investigation? How deeply was he involved? Why do you think Coss flip-flopped on Cooper?
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on October 05, 2015, 04:59:03 AM
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Okay, Georger, it's time for you to put words in your mouth - tell us what you think of Cossey. Did he own the chutes? Why did the FBI bring him into the investigation? How deeply was he involved? Why do you think Coss flip-flopped on Cooper?

 :-X

Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on October 05, 2015, 12:59:11 PM
 ::)
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: 377 on October 05, 2015, 01:11:24 PM
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I think Cossey is just a centerpiece for the chute part of the crime. they seem to have trusted him, so they continued to use his advice over the years. to me, it's just an unsolved case. it's riddled with mistakes, but I doubt any type of damaging coverup is involved.

Agree with highlighted text. I am drawn to NORJACK conspiracy theories just as I am drawn to alien UFO and  paranormal stories, but I don't believe in either.

377
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: 377 on October 05, 2015, 01:23:12 PM
Cossey is a puzzle. He knew a LOT about parachutes but he has been nailed on some inaccuracies and some outright untruths. He apparently liked playing with people, leading them down the rabbit hole. He was kind of a "wise guy".

Its funny that Cossey, I and the FBI all make a big deal about Cooper's chute choice, as if it indicated an informed decision. There were two main chutes. Cooper had to pick one. It could have been completely random choice that had nothing to do with the technical suitability of the chute for the jump. No doubt in my mind that the C-9 was the right chute for the jump, it is the pit bull of all personnel canopies, but it could have just been a random selection.

I've tried to get in touch with Sheridan with a known good email address and text number, but he completely ignores me. He is far too intelligent to really believe that I am "CIA/FBI" which he has written in the past. Guess our only hope is to take a clue from the FBI and send a beautiful woman to interview him.

377

Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on October 05, 2015, 08:41:17 PM
Perhaps you should focus your energies on making contact with Nicole Deveraux and convincing her to make another trip to Santa Rosa.

How about knocking on his door with a bottle of wine in hand?
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on October 05, 2015, 08:48:38 PM
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Cossey is a puzzle. He knew a LOT about parachutes but he has been nailed on some inaccuracies and some outright untruths. He apparently liked playing with people, leading them down the rabbit hole. He was kind of a "wise guy".

Its funny that Cossey, I and the FBI all make a big deal about Cooper's chute choice, as if it indicated an informed decision. There were two main chutes. Cooper had to pick one. It could have been completely random choice that had nothing to do with the technical suitability of the chute for the jump. No doubt in my mind that the C-9 was the right chute for the jump, it is the pit bull of all personnel canopies, but it could have just been a random selection.

Yup, I agree the chute choice could have just been a random one.

As for a conspiracy to cover-up Norjak, I proceed as if both possibilities - it's a cover-up, OR, it's not, and just a string of mistakes common to most LE undertakings - are VERY possible. I think it is important to continue to look at Cossey, the ground search, missing evidence, etc. through the lens of a cover-up to see if anything comes into sharper focus.

To maintain a posture that the FBI could never hoodwink us, so they didn't, is not helpful in my view.

Besides, don't you want to know how your tax dollars are spent? :)
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on October 05, 2015, 09:02:55 PM
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I think Cossey is just a centerpiece for the chute part of the crime. they seem to have trusted him, so they continued to use his advice over the years. to me, it's just an unsolved case. it's riddled with mistakes, but I doubt any type of damaging coverup is involved.

Agree with highlighted text. I am drawn to NORJACK conspiracy theories just as I am drawn to alien UFO and  paranormal stories, but I don't believe in either.

377

UFOs and the Paranormal are like Cooper, aren't they. Lots of theories, lots of accounts, lots of really kooky people, and lots of really WEIRD stuff happening.

But again, my response is the same - let's record what people are saying, verify what we can, and then ponder - speculating why someone would do what has been done. 

IE:

1. Why would Cossey lie?
2. Why would beings with highly advanced surgical technology leave seven cattle carcasses lying in the Fazios' fields? Didn't their mothers ever tell them to clean up their mess when they were done? (Some ETs are very rude!)
3. Why would the FBI need to cover-up the Cooper case? Who benefits?
4. Why would the US military need to cover-up dramatic instances of encounters with ETs, crafts, and phenomena - such as deactivating the nukes in N Dakota (reportedly...)?

So, I keep digging, wondering, writing...and cashing my royalty checks. $122 last week!  Whoo-Hoo!!
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on October 05, 2015, 11:46:29 PM
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I think Cossey is just a centerpiece for the chute part of the crime. they seem to have trusted him, so they continued to use his advice over the years. to me, it's just an unsolved case. it's riddled with mistakes, but I doubt any type of damaging coverup is involved.

Agree with highlighted text. I am drawn to NORJACK conspiracy theories just as I am drawn to alien UFO and  paranormal stories, but I don't believe in either.

377

UFOs and the Paranormal are like Cooper, aren't they. Lots of theories, lots of accounts, lots of really kooky people, and lots of really WEIRD stuff happening.

But again, my response is the same - let's record what people are saying, verify what we can, and then ponder - speculating why someone would do what has been done. 

IE:

1. Why would Cossey lie?
2. Why would beings with highly advanced surgical technology leave seven cattle carcasses lying in the Fazios' fields? Didn't their mothers ever tell them to clean up their mess when they were done? (Some ETs are very rude!)
3. Why would the FBI need to cover-up the Cooper case? Who benefits?
4. Why would the US military need to cover-up dramatic instances of encounters with ETs, crafts, and phenomena - such as deactivating the nukes in N Dakota (reportedly...)?

So, I keep digging, wondering, writing...and cashing my royalty checks. $122 last week!  Whoo-Hoo!!

All off-topic nonsense.
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: 377 on October 06, 2015, 02:09:06 AM
Bruce wrote: "...wondering, writing...and cashing my royalty checks. $122 last week!  Whoo-Hoo!!"

So are you even close to making real money in the Vortex Bruce? Must have taken hundreds of hours to investigate and write your book. What's your hourly wage to date?

Those sloppy alien cow surgeons ain't got nuthin on American engineers.

Check this out:
http://youtu.be/0XdC1HUp-rU

Be sure to watch the end.

377

Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on October 06, 2015, 02:22:26 AM
Just a little scary...377. And watching my dentist suture me up after an extraction last week seemed down-right medieval compared to da Vinci. Whew.

AS for making money in Vortex, I figure I'm in double digits by now - at least .10 per hour! But I'm having lots of fun.
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: 377 on October 06, 2015, 12:30:01 PM
Well, even at 10 cents an hour I think you are well ahead of Galen.  ;)

I wonder if his book is permanently stalled? I was really looking forward to reading it. Of course a few Cooper twenties from a Canadian safe deposit box would propel his book sales through the roof but so far nothing.

I got a kick out of that NYT Cooper piece, especially "military chutes open automatically at 200 feet".

377





Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: andrade1812 on October 06, 2015, 05:02:33 PM
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Just a little scary...377. And watching my dentist suture me up after an extraction last week seemed down-right medieval compared to da Vinci. Whew.

AS for making money in Vortex, I figure I'm in double digits by now - at least .10 per hour! But I'm having lots of fun.

It's okay to spend hundreds of hours writing about DB Cooper if you do so on an online forum; the moment you spend the same amount of time putting a book together suddenly you're a loser unless you're making money at a socially acceptable rate.
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on October 06, 2015, 05:34:37 PM
That's exactly what my mother thinks, Andrade!

Speaking of mom, I think she has found a spot in her heart for me, even though I have been such a disappointment. My poverty/writing lifestyle also affords me the opportunity to visit with mom at length - so, I'm a mixed bag for her.

If you're ever looking for a new mom, Andy, I'll let her know. That would make us brothers, though...
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on October 06, 2015, 05:39:02 PM
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Well, even at 10 cents an hour I think you are well ahead of Galen.  ;)

I wonder if his book is permanently stalled? I was really looking forward to reading it. Of course a few Cooper twenties from a Canadian safe deposit box would propel his book sales through the roof but so far nothing.

I got a kick out of that NYT Cooper piece, especially "military chutes open automatically at 200 feet".

377

Not sure what's happening with Galen. I think the book thingy stalled for two reasons: one, he wants to solve the case before he published his book.  Two, he's coming to terms of life in the in-between - that state of being where he can't solve Norjak, is exhausted from trying, and other aspects of life are emerging as more important - i.e.: Women!  Money! Etc.

Another possibility is that Galen's living down the street from Sarah Palin, and her influence might have had a bigger impact than anyone has expected...

As for the NYT, UG. That piece depressed me enormously. How could a writer be both good enough for the Times and yet so wrong with her facts.  And where was the NYT Fact-Checking Team??? A bad day for the rag biz, all around.
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: 377 on October 06, 2015, 05:41:14 PM
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Just a little scary...377. And watching my dentist suture me up after an extraction last week seemed down-right medieval compared to da Vinci. Whew.

AS for making money in Vortex, I figure I'm in double digits by now - at least .10 per hour! But I'm having lots of fun.

It's okay to spend hundreds of hours writing about DB Cooper if you do so on an online forum; the moment you spend the same amount of time putting a book together suddenly you're a loser unless you're making money at a socially acceptable rate.

I admit it. Posting is playing it safe. "Its just a hobby." "It's just for fun."

If you write a book all of a sudden you are an author, a pro, and you gotta prove yourself in the harsh harsh market or face doubt and scorn.

Some day, maybe somebody will break the Cooper Vortex Poverty Curse.

I shudder to think how much Geoff Gray spent on the Portland Symposium. maybe the FBI chipped in?  ;)

I wonder what Musika Farnsworth made on her Parachutist articles about Norjack? Probably just a few hundred per installment.

And all that work TK and his Citizen Sleuths associates Allan and Carol have done, and not a penny of revenue. It ain't cheap keeping SEMs and EDS machines running.

I've spent a bit on this madness. Bought an NB 8 rig, a Cooper twenty, a 727 flight engineer panel door status annunciator, Seafirst cloth bank bag, books, trip to Portland etc. but it was worth every penny. I had a great time at the Portland DB Cooper Symposium meeting so many interesting people. I liked everyone I met. Really shame that Georger, Snow and Jo didn't make it.

Jumping again on Oct 17 with even more radio gear, including an APRS telemetry beacon that will broadcast my GPS position, heart rate and blood oxygen level. 

Turning 66 in a few days. I am so blessed to be able to continue skydiving. Most of the cohorts I started with in 68 have hung up their rigs.

377


Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on October 06, 2015, 05:43:16 PM
Happy Birthday, 377!

And I turned 66 two weeks ago, too!
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: 377 on October 06, 2015, 05:45:45 PM
Bruce wrote: "Another possibility is that Galen's living down the street from Sarah Palin, and her influence might have had a bigger impact than anyone has expected..."

Sarah P has been known to fool around: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2037211/Sarah-Palin-took-cocaine-affairs-Glen-Rice-husbands-business-partner.html

Maybe Galen got lucky?

377
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on October 06, 2015, 05:47:56 PM
BTW: Galen says that he's kicked in 50K over the years on his Norjak pursuits - that's over the decades. Maybe since college.

Me, I'm taking a broader view. I consider my social security, Medicare, Medicaid, food stamps, Paratransit, etc., all part of society's subsidized writing grant. So, thank you Mr. and Mrs. American-Taxpayers for helping me keep my keyboard humming. The royalties are just icing on the cake.
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on October 06, 2015, 05:49:15 PM
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Bruce wrote: "Another possibility is that Galen's living down the street from Sarah Palin, and her influence might have had a bigger impact than anyone has expected..."

Sarah P has been known to fool around: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2037211/Sarah-Palin-took-cocaine-affairs-Glen-Rice-husbands-business-partner.html

Maybe Galen got lucky?

377

Maybe.

But I wouldn't call it luck. At least not in the usual sense...
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on October 06, 2015, 05:52:26 PM
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I wonder what Musika Farnsworth made on her Parachutist articles about Norjack? Probably just a few hundred per installment.

377

I wouldn't worry too much about Mooshie. When she left the Portland Symposium she told me she was heading over to Nordstrom's to do a little shopping.

That was also when I knew Mooshie and I were not destined for each other...
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: 377 on October 06, 2015, 05:53:18 PM
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Bruce wrote: "Another possibility is that Galen's living down the street from Sarah Palin, and her influence might have had a bigger impact than anyone has expected..."

Sarah P has been known to fool around: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2037211/Sarah-Palin-took-cocaine-affairs-Glen-Rice-husbands-business-partner.html

Maybe Galen got lucky?

377

Maybe.

But I wouldn't call it luck. At least not in the usual sense...

So you would turn her down Bruce? What a principled gentleman. I think even hard core lefty Sheridan Peterson might go for it.

377
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on October 06, 2015, 05:57:07 PM
Principals have nothing to do with it, 377.

Although inertia is my biggest problem, even bigger is the fear that if I got an STD from Sarah it would really mess-up my mind. I have enough problems to discuss in therapy this week, thank-you-very-much...
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: 377 on October 06, 2015, 06:20:03 PM
I am going to send Sheridan another cheer package this holiday season. That crusty old codger doesn't have to be nice to me. I know he will appreciate it. Look at how much he appreciated the first one before he got all paranoid and accusatory. We old skydivers have to look out for each other.

I've been re-reading this book which was given to me by the late Cliff Schumaker of SSK (Cypres AAD US service center) : http://www.amazon.com/Bird-Man-Leo-Valentin/dp/B000S671PS

Sheridan took incredible risk building and flying his own bat wings. Similar experiments proved fatal to many. Eagle Eye Pete definitely thought way out of the box when it came to skydiving capers.

377
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Shutter on October 07, 2015, 08:58:16 AM
We are drifting off topic here guys....try and stay on topic please...
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on October 07, 2015, 04:04:25 PM
Drift?

Is that from the 80 kph winds at 160 degrees or the gusts from SSW at 45 mph?
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: EVickiW on November 02, 2015, 11:33:43 PM
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We are drifting off topic here guys....try and stay on topic please...

A Minnesota kidnapping cold case from 1989 has been in the news lately. A person of interest was taken into custody for another crime and the MN Bureau of Criminal Apprehension (BCA) used DNA testing to bring this case forward. Because this case brought questions regarding the testing, the BCA's director of forensic science services, Catherine Knutson, held a news conference Monday to answer these questions, and the BCA released a recording of her comments.

From the article linked below:
 
"Knutson said DNA testing procedures used now are much more sensitive than those available in decades past, and can detect DNA from samples that are so small they can’t be seen with the naked eye.

“The different types of tests that have been implemented over the past 20 years really had one common goal, and that was to be able to get more information from a smaller piece of evidence,” Knutson said.

One example of that is so-called “touch DNA,” which can be found on items that have been touched by a suspect, such as a piece of clothing.

“We can target those types of areas and try to see if any DNA was left behind,” she said."


Here is the article:http://bringmethenews.com/2015/11/02/advances-in-dna-testing-at-the-heart-of-wetterling-case-developments/

Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on November 03, 2015, 12:02:03 AM
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We are drifting off topic here guys....try and stay on topic please...

A Minnesota kidnapping cold case from 1989 has been in the news lately. A person of interest was taken into custody for another crime and the MN Bureau of Criminal Apprehension (BCA) used DNA testing to bring this case forward. Because this case brought questions regarding the testing, the BCA's director of forensic science services, Catherine Knutson, held a news conference Monday to answer these questions, and the BCA released a recording of her comments.

From the article linked below:
 
"Knutson said DNA testing procedures used now are much more sensitive than those available in decades past, and can detect DNA from samples that are so small they can’t be seen with the naked eye.

“The different types of tests that have been implemented over the past 20 years really had one common goal, and that was to be able to get more information from a smaller piece of evidence,” Knutson said.

One example of that is so-called “touch DNA,” which can be found on items that have been touched by a suspect, such as a piece of clothing.

“We can target those types of areas and try to see if any DNA was left behind,” she said."


Here is the article:http://bringmethenews.com/2015/11/02/advances-in-dna-testing-at-the-heart-of-wetterling-case-developments/

This is all true. Next Gen testing came on board about three years ago, which replaced advanced methods in use before that. Every two or three years seems to see an expansion in genetic testing methods with more sensitivity-reliability of the tests. 
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 03, 2015, 07:05:19 PM
This information is just in time!  Thanks- now I understand better what is going on in the forensics discussions on Law and Order!
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 05, 2015, 07:55:18 PM
DNA Update

The discussion on DNA seems to be bouncing around, so I thought I'd redirect it, here. This is where the cigarette issue stands at this moment in time:

1. The DNA from the saliva is critical: first, it is the best source of DNA. Secondly, it avoids the chain of custody issues surrounding the tie and clasp.

2. We only have a thin line of evidence that the cigarette butts were tested for DNA. First, we have the report that Dennis Bounds at KING 5 TV in Seattle gave a report on the topic back in 2002 or so, via the statements of Ron and Pat Forman who saw Bounds on TV.

3. This suggest that Bounds was working off an FBI press release on the subject. I have an email into Ayn Dietrich-Williams to see if there are any media announcements in an archive that might help.

4. We also have a post by Ckret, as presented by Georger and emailed to me in 2013, where Carr says that the cigarettes had been tested in DC and were headed back to Seattle:

From Georger in 2013:
DNA, cigarette butts, evidence missing, 2.4.13

"...don't know that he said DNA -- just that they were "processed" in the lab.
From ckret post (in DZ):"

“Still looking for the cigarettes, after they were processed in the lab they were sent back to the field. So they are somewhere between Washington DC and Seattle or disposed of. Every spot on the plane possibly touched by Cooper was processed for prints. The seats he was sitting in were actually removed and sent to DC.”

5. I have an email out to Bounds to ask his assistance in this matter.

6. I have emailed Chris Ingalls, a KING 5 TV journalist, who has expressed interest in the DB Cooper story.

7. KING 5 TV archives are currently inaccessible, at least to mere mortals. I have asked for Divine Intervention in his matter. (C'mon God/Ramtha, can I catch a break here!!!)

8. The FBI "Index" makes no mention of DNA in its "DB Cooper" section. Alas.
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on December 06, 2015, 02:06:01 AM
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DNA Update

The discussion on DNA seems to be bouncing around, so I thought I'd redirect it, here. This is where the cigarette issue stands at this moment in time:

1. The DNA from the saliva is critical: first, it is the best source of DNA. Secondly, it avoids the chain of custody issues surrounding the tie and clasp.

2. We only have a thin line of evidence that the cigarette butts were tested for DNA. First, we have the report that Dennis Bounds at KING 5 TV in Seattle gave a report on the topic back in 2002 or so, via the statements of Ron and Pat Forman who saw Bounds on TV.

3. This suggest that Bounds was working off an FBI press release on the subject. I have an email into Ayn Dietrich-Williams to see if there are any media announcements in an archive that might help.

4. We also have a post by Ckret, as presented by Georger and emailed to me in 2013, where Carr says that the cigarettes had been tested in DC and were headed back to Seattle:

From Georger in 2013:
DNA, cigarette butts, evidence missing, 2.4.13

"...don't know that he said DNA -- just that they were "processed" in the lab.
From ckret post (in DZ):"

“Still looking for the cigarettes, after they were processed in the lab they were sent back to the field. So they are somewhere between Washington DC and Seattle or disposed of. Every spot on the plane possibly touched by Cooper was processed for prints. The seats he was sitting in were actually removed and sent to DC.”

5. I have an email out to Bounds to ask his assistance in this matter.

6. I have emailed Chris Ingalls, a KING 5 TV journalist, who has expressed interest in the DB Cooper story.

7. KING 5 TV archives are currently inaccessible, at least to mere mortals. I have asked for Divine Intervention in his matter. (C'mon God/Ramtha, can I catch a break here!!!)

8. The FBI "Index" makes no mention of DNA in its "DB Cooper" section. Alas.

"We also have a post by Ckret, as presented by Georger and emailed to me in 2013" ... ???

Why would I be presenting a post by Ckret? Emailing it to you?  If Ckret posted this on DZ anyone can find and read it?  WTF are you doing-saying ??? 

Don't press your luck, Brucy-Baby!  :-*  You are beginning to piss people off - again.

What are you trying to pull here, behind everybody's back - a Blevins shortcut to fame & glory?
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on December 06, 2015, 02:47:44 AM
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DNA Update

The discussion on DNA seems to be bouncing around, so I thought I'd redirect it, here. This is where the cigarette issue stands at this moment in time:

1. The DNA from the saliva is critical: first, it is the best source of DNA. Secondly, it avoids the chain of custody issues surrounding the tie and clasp.

2. We only have a thin line of evidence that the cigarette butts were tested for DNA. First, we have the report that Dennis Bounds at KING 5 TV in Seattle gave a report on the topic back in 2002 or so, via the statements of Ron and Pat Forman who saw Bounds on TV.

3. This suggest that Bounds was working off an FBI press release on the subject. I have an email into Ayn Dietrich-Williams to see if there are any media announcements in an archive that might help.

4. We also have a post by Ckret, as presented by Georger and emailed to me in 2013, where Carr says that the cigarettes had been tested in DC and were headed back to Seattle:

From Georger in 2013:
DNA, cigarette butts, evidence missing, 2.4.13

"...don't know that he said DNA -- just that they were "processed" in the lab.
From ckret post (in DZ):"

“Still looking for the cigarettes, after they were processed in the lab they were sent back to the field. So they are somewhere between Washington DC and Seattle or disposed of. Every spot on the plane possibly touched by Cooper was processed for prints. The seats he was sitting in were actually removed and sent to DC.”

5. I have an email out to Bounds to ask his assistance in this matter.

6. I have emailed Chris Ingalls, a KING 5 TV journalist, who has expressed interest in the DB Cooper story.

7. KING 5 TV archives are currently inaccessible, at least to mere mortals. I have asked for Divine Intervention in his matter. (C'mon God/Ramtha, can I catch a break here!!!)

8. The FBI "Index" makes no mention of DNA in its "DB Cooper" section. Alas.

Smith writes:

4. We also have a post by Ckret, as presented by Georger and emailed to me in 2013, where Carr says that the cigarettes had been tested in DC and were headed back to Seattle:

From Georger in 2013:
DNA, cigarette butts, evidence missing, 2.4.13

"...don't know that he said DNA -- just that they were "processed" in the lab.
From ckret post (in DZ):"

“Still looking for the cigarettes, after they were processed in the lab they were sent back to the field. So they are somewhere between Washington DC and Seattle or disposed of. Every spot on the plane possibly touched by Cooper was processed for prints. The seats he was sitting in were actually removed and sent to DC.”


1. If this involves a post by Ckret why dont you give us a link to the post ? At Dropzone?

2. Why would I be sending you an "email" referencing a post by Ckret? In what context did this all supposedly happen?  Why would I be saying "...don't know that he said DNA " if I am referencing a post by Ckret? Again, what was the context all of this happened in ... why am I emailing you about this? I am totally in the dark.

3. Whose statement is this, mine or Ckret's? "“Still looking for the cigarettes, after they were processed in the lab they were sent back to the field. So they are somewhere between Washington DC and Seattle or disposed of. Every spot on the plane possibly touched by Cooper was processed for prints. The seats he was sitting in were actually removed and sent to DC.” This sounds like something Ckret is saying ? Was this a post by Ckret or something you are saying I said?

4. Frankly, what you have posted above sounds like Ckret trying to state the options for what may have happened to the butts, ie speculation on his part vs. stating actual fact.

5. Are you trying to take a speculation Ckret made (that I passed along to you) and now stating Ckret's speculation as fact? ... because of some KING-5 newscast the Forman's supposedly heard?

If you recall, Ckret was trying to find the butts. He didn't know where they were. But he speculated they might still be in Reno, or were sent to DC or Quantico for testing, and if testing occurred they might have been sent back to the field office that sent them in for testing. If Reno sent them in for testing they might have been tested and returned to Reno. Ckret was looking for paper work to trace the chain of custody and disposition. And so far as I know that is as far as he ever got. He couldn't find the butts and he couldn't find any paperwork stating what had happened to the butts or where they were. But at one point he wondered if Reno had sent the butts in for testing, for prints. In 1971 I dont know that the FBI was doing dna testing? So it is unlikely the butts would have been dna tested in the 1970s, in any event. That would have happened later and there would be paperwork documenting it.

But, it sounds to me like what I emailed you was Ckret's speculations on what might have happened to the butts. I seriously doubt what you have posted is a statement of fact about what actually happened to the butts, because neither I nor Ckret nor anyone else I know would be in any position to have that information even if it existed somewhere.

So do not quote me as saying "x,y,, and z happened to the butts"!

The Forman claim to have heard a KING-5 program stating the butts had been tested is a separate matter. I assume that in due course we will all get something back from KING-5 about whether that program content ever happened .. and then we can all go back to you and Blevins presenting yourselves as experts in genetic testing and some of us can just sit back laughing ....

Thanks Dr. Smith!  ::)


   
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: sailshaw on December 06, 2015, 09:37:39 AM
Bruce:    You say: "Larry told me epithelial cells from the fingers on the clasp"

I say:   "Any girl friend helping DB get dressed could have placed the tie clasp in her mouth and would have handled it too. The chances are great that the DNA from the tie clasp are not from DB. The envelope stamps/flaps (on the other hand) of the four letters are still the best evidence that the FBI has that they have yet to look at and when compared with what they have of Sheridan Peterson will catch him in a lie to the Feds (could serve jail time on that) and could be used to trade for the real complete story from Sheridan. " I think the FBI have been told to stop working on the case!

Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Shutter on December 06, 2015, 09:57:35 AM
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Bruce:    You say: "Larry told me epithelial cells from the fingers on the clasp"

I say:   "Any girl friend helping DB get dressed could have placed the tie clasp in her mouth and would have handled it too. The chances are great that the DNA from the tie clasp are not from DB. The envelope stamps/flaps (on the other hand) of the four letters are still the best evidence that the FBI has that they have yet to look at and when compared with what they have of Sheridan Peterson will catch him in a lie to the Feds (could serve jail time on that) and could be used to trade for the real complete story from Sheridan. " I think the FBI have been told to stop working on the case!

Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com


I believe the DNA sample has ruled out women as a contributor...it could easily be seen in the sample.
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on December 06, 2015, 02:18:54 PM
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DNA Update

The discussion on DNA seems to be bouncing around, so I thought I'd redirect it, here. This is where the cigarette issue stands at this moment in time:

1. The DNA from the saliva is critical: first, it is the best source of DNA. Secondly, it avoids the chain of custody issues surrounding the tie and clasp.

2. We only have a thin line of evidence that the cigarette butts were tested for DNA. First, we have the report that Dennis Bounds at KING 5 TV in Seattle gave a report on the topic back in 2002 or so, via the statements of Ron and Pat Forman who saw Bounds on TV.

3. This suggest that Bounds was working off an FBI press release on the subject. I have an email into Ayn Dietrich-Williams to see if there are any media announcements in an archive that might help.

4. We also have a post by Ckret, as presented by Georger and emailed to me in 2013, where Carr says that the cigarettes had been tested in DC and were headed back to Seattle:

From Georger in 2013:
DNA, cigarette butts, evidence missing, 2.4.13

"...don't know that he said DNA -- just that they were "processed" in the lab.
From ckret post (in DZ):"

“Still looking for the cigarettes, after they were processed in the lab they were sent back to the field. So they are somewhere between Washington DC and Seattle or disposed of. Every spot on the plane possibly touched by Cooper was processed for prints. The seats he was sitting in were actually removed and sent to DC.”

5. I have an email out to Bounds to ask his assistance in this matter.

6. I have emailed Chris Ingalls, a KING 5 TV journalist, who has expressed interest in the DB Cooper story.

7. KING 5 TV archives are currently inaccessible, at least to mere mortals. I have asked for Divine Intervention in his matter. (C'mon God/Ramtha, can I catch a break here!!!)

8. The FBI "Index" makes no mention of DNA in its "DB Cooper" section. Alas.

Not so fast Brucy! Now that I have time a quick check of DZ showed you were engaged in this caliphony clear back in 2014 and earlier, trying to do a "Blevins" on Ckret's words ... until Smokin99 politely stopped you. Smokin has always been kind to orphans and small animals. The issue was and still is, Ckret's word "processed" which you then sped off the planet with insisting this meant "dna", and you said back in 2014 that you/the Formans had seen some creature-feature on KIRO which talked about the butts and "dna" ?

Let's be clear here - Brucy Baby! I did not say "dna". You said "dna". Ckret did not say "dna". It was you whoo said "dna", from whometh be the Formans forthwith eternally finding goblins and unworldly things in the Cooper Maldum Fornax which they pass on to you and you dutifully report for the caliphate whose tit you sucketh?

So it was not me who ever said "dna" in the context you are trying to attribute to me, in your Blevination.

Smokin99 simply said in response to your anti-FBI (anti-authority) assertions:

smokin99

Feb 4, 2013, 5:31 PM
Post #40581 of 58140 (50723 views)
Shortcut
          Re: [377] The Hunt for DB Cooper - an overview of the citizen sleuth team [In reply to]
 
________________________________________
In reply to:
Bruce wrote:
Quote:
My current understanding - from piecing together bits here and there - is that the cigarette butts were lost shortly after they were analyzed for DNA, somewhere in the 2002-2003 time period.

If true then is it cigarette DNA that they use to rule out suspects? I was not aware that they analysed the cigarette butts for DNA. If they did, I assume they would have compared it to the tie DNA to shore up their conclusion that the tie was Cooper's.

377

Smokin99 reply>

I don't know that he said DNA -- just that they were "processed" in the lab.
From ckret post:

Still looking for the cigarettes, after they were processed in the lab they were sent back to the field. So they are somewhere between Washington DC and Seattle or disposed of. Every spot on the plane possibly touched by Cooper was processed for prints. The seats he was sitting in were actually removed and sent to DC.


and you replied saying more claptrap:

Since the FBI had the cigarette butts and analyzed the DNA from them around 2002, it must be presumed that they have DB Cooper actual DNA and a complete profile.

We know this because Seattle KIRO-TV announced it as such in 2002.

The bigger question then is, what happened next to the butts and the documentation, both of which now seem to be "lost."

It also begs the question of why the butts were stored in Les Vegas and not in Seattle, as has been reported here. (Nov 24, 2013)


Was there a program on KIRO, KING-5, WHOTV, or someplace else like you and the Forman's are claiming?

Well I don't know! But I guess we will find out, when the graveyard opens back up tomorrow and cannibalizing the Cooper has started again ...

 :-*

 


 

   
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on December 06, 2015, 02:20:17 PM
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Bruce:    You say: "Larry told me epithelial cells from the fingers on the clasp"

I say:   "Any girl friend helping DB get dressed could have placed the tie clasp in her mouth and would have handled it too. The chances are great that the DNA from the tie clasp are not from DB. The envelope stamps/flaps (on the other hand) of the four letters are still the best evidence that the FBI has that they have yet to look at and when compared with what they have of Sheridan Peterson will catch him in a lie to the Feds (could serve jail time on that) and could be used to trade for the real complete story from Sheridan. " I think the FBI have been told to stop working on the case!

Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com


I believe the DNA sample has ruled out women as a contributor...it could easily be seen in the sample.

How do you know? So you are saying CODIS-13 is sex sensitive? At which loci?
 8)

Here, let me help you with some reading material:
https://www.google.com/#q=can+a+codis+profile+determine+haplotype%3F
or this:
https://www.google.com/#q=can+a+codis+profile+determine+sex%3F

I am sure Bruce Smith & RobertMBlevins or 377 will answer any questions you have .. that the Formans haven't already answered.  :)
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Shutter on December 06, 2015, 02:40:54 PM
If you noticed I used the words "I believe"

Now, I've read many times that the tie has "multiple male donors" this should dismiss any female from any point forward.

It's always been my understanding that DNA can determine male vs female?

I also found this link...

http://jonfwilkins.com/2013/04/how-does-the-fbi-know-it-found-female-dna/
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 06, 2015, 03:39:01 PM
As always, Georger, thanks for all your corrective assistance. As for all your snarky stuff, again as always, GFY.

In the meantime, I will seek the original DZ post by Ckret, continue to clarify the confusion between KING 5 and KIRO 7 TV, and search for other tidbits that might reveal DB Cooper's actual identity. :-*
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 06, 2015, 03:49:50 PM
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Bruce:    You say: "Larry told me epithelial cells from the fingers on the clasp"

I say:   "Any girl friend helping DB get dressed could have placed the tie clasp in her mouth and would have handled it too. The chances are great that the DNA from the tie clasp are not from DB. The envelope stamps/flaps (on the other hand) of the four letters are still the best evidence that the FBI has that they have yet to look at and when compared with what they have of Sheridan Peterson will catch him in a lie to the Feds (could serve jail time on that) and could be used to trade for the real complete story from Sheridan. " I think the FBI have been told to stop working on the case!

Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com

Helpful girlfriends are only one element of concern with the tie and clasp. It could also be contaminated by curious FBI agents who tried on the tie to get the Cooper vibe. Or, it could have been anybody at Red Campbell's house over the T-Day weekend since the tie didn't get to Seattle until Monday.

More problematic, none of the five principals who saw or presumably handled the tie remember seeing or touching it. Surprisingly, even Tina Mucklow said she didn't remember the tie, according to Russ Calame when he spoke to her in the late 1980s when she was at the convent. However, she did describe it accurately at her debriefing.

In addition, Bernie Rhodes says that the four FBI agents responsible for the evidence retrieval - Campbell, Ricks, Stousland, or Norris - all of them told Bernie that they had no memory of ever seeing the tie, hearing about the tie, or recovering the tie.
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Robert99 on December 06, 2015, 05:20:49 PM
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In the meantime, I will seek the original DZ post by Ckret, continue to clarify the confusion between KING 5 and KIRO 7 TV, and search for other tidbits that might reveal DB Cooper's actual identity.


For everyone's information, WSHM has a file of Ckret's posts on DZ available for downloading in their Cooper files.

Print it out and it will probably save you quite a bit of searching for specific posts as well as enlightening everyone on what Ckret actually posted on DZ.
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 06, 2015, 07:49:01 PM
This is great. Thanks, R99-
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Shutter on December 06, 2015, 07:56:36 PM
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bx4E4pqVrHVuWW9WVmhVdWd6Y2M/view?usp=sharing
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 06, 2015, 11:09:13 PM
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https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bx4E4pqVrHVuWW9WVmhVdWd6Y2M/view?usp=sharing

Superb, Shutt. Thanks.

BTW: Why yellow?
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on December 06, 2015, 11:23:59 PM
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https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bx4E4pqVrHVuWW9WVmhVdWd6Y2M/view?usp=sharing

Superb, Shutt. Thanks.

BTW: Why yellow?

Because yellow is between Indigo and Infrared.  :-X
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 07, 2015, 12:27:58 AM
I also noticed that there was a lot of variations on the posts. Heavy in the December 2007 - January 2008 period. Very light after that, and zip past March 2008. Are they at WSHM? In another installment? Another archive?
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on December 07, 2015, 02:23:37 PM
For Shutter only:

Shutter, in 2013 you posted the below to DZ saying:

the DNA came from the tie clip, not the tie itself. Carr always had gloves on when presenting the evidence. if not mistaken the clip was taken off early in the investigation and put back on. (Shutter 2013)

Where did you get this about the dna coming from the tie clasp/clip and not the tie itself ?

What was your source for this, back in 2013?

Smith please let Shutter answer for himself. Butt out!

 [edit] Carr never made any posts to DZ that I can find, where he said the tie clasp was the source of the FBI's dna. Larry always spoke about the dna having come off "the tie". And everyone including me followed his lead. Then suddenly in 2013 you surfaced with your post above. Smith followed that up in 2014 posting: "Larry told me epithelial cells from the fingers on the clasp." Sailshaw then began posting the same copy you and Smith. You, Smith, and Sailshaw are the only people to claim the dna came off the tie clasp. Everyone else followed Carr's posted info that the dna came off the tie.

Please clarify what your source was.   
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Shutter on December 07, 2015, 03:49:24 PM
The only place I have found this is on Bruce's site "The Mountain News"

my post was made in August, 2013...the article on the Mountain News was done in February of 2013...

Quote
Nevertheless, Carr jumped into the breech and submitted Cooper’s clip-on tie for DNA testing.  Carr told me in 2008 that the Bureau had obtained a “partial” DNA profile using epithelial cells – skin tissue – found on the metal clip.

So far, it appears I got it from reading that article.....

It's possible I thought it was the tie clip...don't know, was a while back.
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Shutter on December 07, 2015, 04:12:41 PM
2011, Jo states this....

Quote
The story on the DNA puzzles me because - there were conflicting story. Before we heard it was on the clip and now we hear it is around the top. Why would there not be DNA all over it?
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on December 07, 2015, 04:14:21 PM
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The only place I have found this is on Bruce's site "The Mountain News"

my post was made in August, 2013...the article on the Mountain News was done in February of 2013...

Quote
Nevertheless, Carr jumped into the breech and submitted Cooper’s clip-on tie for DNA testing.  Carr told me in 2008 that the Bureau had obtained a “partial” DNA profile using epithelial cells – skin tissue – found on the metal clip.

So far, it appears I got it from reading that article.....

It's possible I thought it was the tie clip...don't know, was a while back.

OK, noted. So Smith is the source of all of this.

Carr never said this on DZ - he always referred to the tie. In fact he spoke of techs looking for stains etc "on the tie". The clasp was never mentioned.

And he states 'epithelial' (skin) cells as opposed to 'dermal' cells (fingers as in touch dna).

The fragments  ;) are beginning to connect. More later -

Thanks.

 
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Shutter on December 07, 2015, 04:18:20 PM
Sailshaw.....2011

Quote
Farflung: Good thinking about the DNA as that would have not been a concern of DB's as it was not used in those days by the FBI. The DNA from the tie clasp could have been from DB's girl friend that dressed him the morning of the skyjacking. She could have placed the tie clasp in her mouth while putting the clip-on tie in place and then finally placing the tie clasp in place on the tie. DB could have possibly not touched the clasp and it would not have his DNA.
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on December 07, 2015, 04:18:59 PM
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2011, Jo states this....

Quote
The story on the DNA puzzles me because - there were conflicting story. Before we heard it was on the clip and now we hear it is around the top. Why would there not be DNA all over it?

Jo has a valid point. Epithelial cells would spread ... dermal less so specific to touch. In any case its the tie and so far not cigarette butts or anything else. And epithelial fragmentary (nonnucleated) dna makes sense vs dermal. The nature of epithelial cells connects better to a partial vs dermal cells, although both usually contain only non-nucleated fragmentary dna strands leading to a partial ....

more later.   must run -
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on December 07, 2015, 04:20:54 PM
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Sailshaw.....2011

Quote
Farflung: Good thinking about the DNA as that would have not been a concern of DB's as it was not used in those days by the FBI. The DNA from the tie clasp could have been from DB's girl friend that dressed him the morning of the skyjacking. She could have placed the tie clasp in her mouth while putting the clip-on tie in place and then finally placing the tie clasp in place on the tie. DB could have possibly not touched the clasp and it would not have his DNA.

Sailshaw is copying from you and Smith. Sailshaw has no source except you guys and the forum.
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Shutter on December 07, 2015, 04:27:14 PM
Sailshaw posted in July of 2011, I wasn't on the forum until December of 2011...
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 07, 2015, 04:28:17 PM
Yup. Larry told me that his source for DNA was epithelial cells found on the clip/clasp of the tie. 2008 phone conversation. I probably posted that news on the DZ, circa 2008. It is certainly at the Mountain News in early 2011, and in my book.

I didn't know there was any controversy on this, or any thought that DNA could come from the tie itself. I suppose the tie could NOW be tested for "touch DNA" off the cloth, but that is a recent development. But Larry specifically talks in the DZ posts how DNA can not be retrieved from most cloths, circa 2007-2009. I just read it in the Ckret posts linked to, above.
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Shutter on December 07, 2015, 04:32:02 PM
The confusion appears to be the clip....it's the clip that's on the tie where the DNA was taken...correct? not the tie clip.
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Shutter on December 07, 2015, 04:38:06 PM
Farf, made the post Sailshaw responded to...

Quote
What was I thinking? Of course the reserve lines were handled by hundreds of people over the years and the geography of the cut locations and gripping force would be the same as any other part of the reserve system.

But the tie, that was only handled by one person because clip on neckties are typically attached with salad tongs which have been sealed in plastic bags removed from an autoclave after being bathed in iodine. If only I had considered this simple fact since DNA was extracted from the tie which was never handled by anyone other than the owner. Yep, sales people, warehousemen, seamstresses, browsing customers, customers returning merchandise and cashiers would have never touched that tie and that is assuming it wasn’t purchased from a thrift store after being savagely worn by a well dressed jackhammer operator. This is yet another example of why my thirst for logic remains unquenched while others are perpetually drunk on the stuff.
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: 377 on December 07, 2015, 04:39:37 PM
Sure miss Farf, he was sharp as hell and that DRY humor...

Hope he is OK.

377
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 07, 2015, 04:41:13 PM
DNA and the FBI

I just got an email from Ayn, clearly stating the FBI's new policy of saying Nuttin' 'bout Nuttin'. It appears we are on our own...


12. 7. 15:
Hi, Bruce—
 
I’m sorry to disappoint you, yet again, but it would not be appropriate at this time for me to provide details about the investigation. As you are aware, there was a time when the FBI’s Seattle Division answered media questions and proactively sought coverage. At that time, the FBI thought it might be beneficial to the investigation to share information publicly. The FBI’s media policy prohibits discussing ongoing investigations unless a release is specifically thought to have potential benefit to the investigation. Following further investigative efforts, the FBI in the fall of 2011 determined that media coverage of the case was more detrimental than helpful. We’ve found that media coverage generates considerable new interest, which is not proportional to where we are in allocating resources to this investigation.
 
I understand your continued interest in our investigation and apologize that I will not be able to share additional information to answer your questions.
 
Ayn
 
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 07, 2015, 04:42:56 PM
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The confusion appears to be the clip....it's the clip that's on the tie where the DNA was taken...correct? not the tie clip.

That is my understanding. The clip. Also called the clasp.

NOT the tie pin.
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Shutter on December 07, 2015, 05:02:45 PM
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The confusion appears to be the clip....it's the clip that's on the tie where the DNA was taken...correct? not the tie clip.

That is my understanding. The clip. Also called the clasp.

NOT the tie pin.



To add more confusion......the clip in the evidence room is indeed a tie clip, not a pin. at one point the tie did have a tie pin. holes are visible on the tie where they were once used.
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on December 07, 2015, 06:01:24 PM
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Yup. Larry told me that his source for DNA was epithelial cells found on the clip/clasp of the tie. 2008 phone conversation. I probably posted that news on the DZ, circa 2008. It is certainly at the Mountain News in early 2011, and in my book.

I didn't know there was any controversy on this, or any thought that DNA could come from the tie itself. I suppose the tie could NOW be tested for "touch DNA" off the cloth, but that is a recent development. But Larry specifically talks in the DZ posts how DNA can not be retrieved from most cloths, circa 2007-2009. I just read it in the Ckret posts linked to, above.

Well something is wrong. Ckret NEVER posted about dna from the tip clasp - anywhere. The only source is your supposed conversation with Ckret in 2008. Odd he would tell you this but leave everyone else out?

You also glibly talk about dna coming from tie and tie clasp - which is it? Make up your mind because it matters.

The next problem is touch dna vs epithelial dna! There IS a difference. Since you dont know shit about dna or anything genetic I dont blame you for not knowing. Your lack of knowledge in this area is very apparent to anyone who is versed in this topic. Now you are also alleging dna from the butts ... which would be nucleated dna, yet one more type! It's laughable, Smith. Ckret has said all along "partial profile". So, which is your guess as to which type of dna would yield a 'partial', and the most likely source ... from where on a tie? Hmmm. I guess there is more to this than you thought ... or know.

Lastly, epithelial cells got mixed into this. Blevins and a claimed FBI email and a Porteous conversation with the FBI are the sources of that, Blevins says. Blevins is the only source for 'epithelial dna'! Larry, from a review of his posts, never mentioned 'epithelial' cells. The first person to mention that was Blevins clear back in 2010 just after he arrived. He said his source was Porteous who had talked to the FBI. Several years later Blevins amended that saying he had just received an email from the FBI which specified 'epithelial cells OFF THE TIE'. Blevins never said tie clasp at all including from his email from the FBI or from Porteous who had talked to the FBI earlier.

So Smith you are the sole source on dna being collected from the tie clasp vs tie itself. You say your source was a phone call from Ckret. This is all very strange since Ckret never shared this with the rest of the world.

And, until we get better info, you can forget about the FBI's profile coming from cigarette butts. Butts would yield nucleated dna. Larry and every other FBI source says it's a "partial profile". That can only com from non-nucleated fragmentary strands of deoxyribonucleic acid! And that can only come from predictable sources like: epithelial cells off a keratinised base of cells. Touch dna involves a different type of cells which are usually referred to as dermal or ectodermal cells vs. epithelial in forensic parlance.   
     
 
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on December 07, 2015, 06:02:14 PM
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The confusion appears to be the clip....it's the clip that's on the tie where the DNA was taken...correct? not the tie clip.

That is my understanding. The clip. Also called the clasp.

NOT the tie pin.



To add more confusion......the clip in the evidence room is indeed a tie clip, not a pin. at one point the tie did have a tie pin. holes are visible on the tie where they were once used.

pins, clasps, holes .... its irrelevant to the dna issue at hand.
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Shutter on December 07, 2015, 06:07:25 PM
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The confusion appears to be the clip....it's the clip that's on the tie where the DNA was taken...correct? not the tie clip.

That is my understanding. The clip. Also called the clasp.

NOT the tie pin.



To add more confusion......the clip in the evidence room is indeed a tie clip, not a pin. at one point the tie did have a tie pin. holes are visible on the tie where they were once used.

pins, clasps, holes .... its irrelevant to the dna issue at hand.



I posted it it to clarify...
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on December 07, 2015, 06:26:10 PM
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The confusion appears to be the clip....it's the clip that's on the tie where the DNA was taken...correct? not the tie clip.

That is my understanding. The clip. Also called the clasp.

NOT the tie pin.



To add more confusion......the clip in the evidence room is indeed a tie clip, not a pin. at one point the tie did have a tie pin. holes are visible on the tie where they were once used.

pins, clasps, holes .... its irrelevant to the dna issue at hand.



I posted it it to clarify...

The surprise to me was when Blevins came out of the woodwork (twice) and quoted FBI sources as saying 'epithelial cells'! That indicated to me right there that indeed Blevins or somebody had been talking to the FBI, and that surprised me. This may be Blevins best sole contribution to this whole matter. I said little at the time - just sat back and watched and listened but from a technical point of view Blevins made a real contribution IF his source was the FBI. We already had 'partial' from Larry. Then we get 'epithelial' from Blevins. The two connect nicely, technically.

The FBI could have a full dna profile from nucleated dna retrieved off the butts, in addition its partial it says it has. Until we get a solid source for butts having been tested, partial is all we have and from that we can estimated which that profile consists of, from probabilities involved alone. But these are technical issues so best not to speculate too far until solid info like Blevins provided happens. Epithelial and Partial fit together, technically. Touch dna, not so much. These may be cells off Cooper's neck and throat area ... keratinised cells which only contain fragmentary dna which can lead only to a partial AFTER multiple tests, which is what I was told happened. Multiple tests. Multiple kits used. Partial estimated result with a known level of confidence. That again is what Larry said: can rule people OUT but not IN.

more later.
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 07, 2015, 06:38:50 PM
I always thought Bobby got the information on epithelial cells from me. I've been an "eppie" guy since Day One! (Circa 2008 on the DZ. Mountain News in 2011.)

As for tie clasps, I suppose, technically, the tie has two clasps. One is the little hook that "clasps" the tie around the neck. The other clasp is the decorative piece that clamps the tie to the shirt so it doesn't flap in the breeze. Again, my understanding is that Dan Cooper wore a tie that clasped around his neck, and was also able to be clasped/clipped onto his shirt with an attachment that seemed to remain with the tie when it was left on 18-E.
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 07, 2015, 06:42:12 PM
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So Smith you are the sole source on dna being collected from the tie clasp vs tie itself. You say your source was a phone call from Ckret. This is all very strange since Ckret never shared this with the rest of the world.



It appears that I am just a Super-Dooper Investigative Reporter! Wow. I've been sitting on a SCOOP for seven years and didn't know it!

Thanks, Georger, for helping me realize how smart I truly am...
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Shutter on December 07, 2015, 08:30:25 PM
Quote
pins, clasps, holes .... its irrelevant to the dna issue at hand.


It was relevant to me. I seen what was written on the post above when I made the comment, and was part of the conversation related to the DNA on the tie/clasp/clip/hook etc. etc. !!!! >:(
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 07, 2015, 08:37:15 PM
KIRO vs KING

Yup. Confusion.

Spoke at length with "Linda" at KING. She's been around a while - 1992-something. Knows the case. Knows her archives, too. Doesn't remember any broadcast about Cooper and cigarette butts. Remembers Chris Ingalls's initial broadcast in 2003 about DNA. Source of DNA not disclosed, however.

But a new FBI agent was identified. SA Charles Mindigo. He was quoted at length. He was not a PIO, apparently. Never heard of him before.

I also spoke with Sharon at KING. Sharon was not as golden-an-oldie as Linda, but she was very diligent. Spoke with her colleagues at length. Their archives are not as extensive as KING. KIRO only went to 2004 with extra searching. Normal search only goes to 2008. They found nothing on cigarette butts and DB Cooper. Sharon knows the case fairly well, (for a millennial). Remembers Marla!

I've discussed this broadcast business with Ron and Pat at length over the years. They are adamant about seeing a cigarette butt broadcast in 2001-2002.
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on December 07, 2015, 11:26:34 PM
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I always thought Bobby got the information on epithelial cells from me. I've been an "eppie" guy since Day One! (Circa 2008 on the DZ. Mountain News in 2011.)

As for tie clasps, I suppose, technically, the tie has two clasps. One is the little hook that "clasps" the tie around the neck. The other clasp is the decorative piece that clamps the tie to the shirt so it doesn't flap in the breeze. Again, my understanding is that Dan Cooper wore a tie that clasped around his neck, and was also able to be clasped/clipped onto his shirt with an attachment that seemed to remain with the tie when it was left on 18-E.

Blevins had the earliest recorded post on DZ and broke the news at DZ about "epithelial" cells, in August of 2010 shortly after he arrived. He said his source was Porteous. He restated the matter in 2014 sourcing an email he himself had received from the FBI. Ckret had previously said in 2007 that the FBI had a "partial", under the CODIS-13 system. A partial in that context usually means at least a 7 loci positive result. Later several agents told me privately that 3+ runs had been required to obtain the partial they have. That tends to agree with the probabilities involved in testing degraded epithelial skin cells from the neck, for example.

Ckret's 2007 post on the tie was this:   
   Ckret

Dec 18, 2007, 8:31 AM
Post #744 of 1694 (3174 views)
Shortcut
          Re: [SafecrackingPLF] Interesting... [In reply to]
 
________________________________________
In reference to the tie, we only know Cooper was described as wearing a black tie with a clasp and a black tie with a clasp was found in the seat Cooper had been sitting in. In regards to the DNA, if it is Coopers tie (more likely his than not) then at least one of the donors would most likely be Cooper.

Having said that and given the facts surrounding the tie and DNA, DNA in this case could not 100% rule anyone out or in as being DB Cooper. Even if a subject matched as being one of the donors, that would not absolutely make him DB Cooper.
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on December 07, 2015, 11:32:39 PM
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So Smith you are the sole source on dna being collected from the tie clasp vs tie itself. You say your source was a phone call from Ckret. This is all very strange since Ckret never shared this with the rest of the world.



It appears that I am just a Super-Dooper Investigative Reporter! Wow. I've been sitting on a SCOOP for seven years and didn't know it!

Thanks, Georger, for helping me realize how smart I truly am...

Of course you are the only source for the FBI sample being taken from the tie clasp. Everywhere else Ckret said the sample comes from the tie - he never mentioned it coming from the clasp. The source being touch dna is also new. If you and Larry are correct, assuming you copied his remarks accurately, then that makes Blevins' 'eipthelial' cells he got from Porteous and the FBI email, wrong.

It probably can't be both touch dna and epithelial cells.

Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on December 07, 2015, 11:36:15 PM
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So Smith you are the sole source on dna being collected from the tie clasp vs tie itself. You say your source was a phone call from Ckret. This is all very strange since Ckret never shared this with the rest of the world.



It appears that I am just a Super-Dooper Investigative Reporter! Wow. I've been sitting on a SCOOP for seven years and didn't know it!

Thanks, Georger, for helping me realize how smart I truly am...

Weren't you one of the three remaining smart-asses in the last year at Dropzone that got owners to close the Dropzone thread down? You, Blevins, and Weber? Everyone else had abandoned Dropzone. Maybe you will accomplish the same thing here?  :o :(
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on December 07, 2015, 11:47:20 PM
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KIRO vs KING

Yup. Confusion.

Spoke at length with "Linda" at KING. She's been around a while - 1992-something. Knows the case. Knows her archives, too. Doesn't remember any broadcast about Cooper and cigarette butts. Remembers Chris Ingalls's initial broadcast in 2003 about DNA. Source of DNA not disclosed, however.

But a new FBI agent was identified. SA Charles Mindigo. He was quoted at length. He was not a PIO, apparently. Never heard of him before.

I also spoke with Sharon at KING. Sharon was not as golden-an-oldie as Linda, but she was very diligent. Spoke with her colleagues at length. Their archives are not as extensive as KING. KIRO only went to 2004 with extra searching. Normal search only goes to 2008. They found nothing on cigarette butts and DB Cooper. Sharon knows the case fairly well, (for a millennial). Remembers Marla!

I've discussed this broadcast business with Ron and Pat at length over the years. They are adamant about seeing a cigarette butt broadcast in 2001-2002.

I also spoke with these people and Ingalls returned my call - last Friday. Extensive searches were done on Friday. Chris mailed me all relevant transcripts done at KING on Cooper dna after Chris interviewed  SA Charles Mindigo. KING-5 can't find any program like you describe the Forman's report seeing, and so far, no program done by Mr. Bounds on that topic.

The issue of course is the sources you cite and the credibility of those sources and the info you present.

Maybe JT or Jo Weber or Blevins saw the program and can confirm?

 :)
   
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 08, 2015, 12:11:51 AM
What has got you so interested in the saliva DNA, Georger? You really seem to have your knickers in a twist, here.

I find that very, um, interesting....

Your interest is now, um, my interest.
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 08, 2015, 12:47:31 AM
DNA on clasp

I just received an email from Chris Ingalls at KING 5 TV. He confirms that he was told by Larry Carr in 2007 that a DNA sample was retrieved from the tie and clasp, as Carr reported to me. This seems to contradict Georger, and more importantly puts G in a harsh light because Georger has just posted saying that he has had recent correspondence with Mr. Ingalls, but fails to mention the clasp.

The following is from Chris Ingalls:

"...The bottom line is that we have not reported that saliva was taken from the cigarette butts.
 
In 2003, I reported that a weak sample of DNA was retrieved from Cooper and it was now considered somewhat usable for ruling out a suspect.
 
In 2007, I reported that Agent Carr said that this DNA came from the tie clasp and tie clip recovered on the plane. (emphasis added, BAS.)

I don’t know that I ever reported it – but I have been told by at least a couple of FBI agents that the cigarette butts were lost at some point.
 
Chris Ingalls
News Reporter"
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 08, 2015, 01:03:12 AM
Chris just confirmed that he spoke with georger, and had also interview Charles Mindigo back in 2003. He described Mindigo as the "case agent." I've never heard the name before.

OOPS. Mindigo was SAC Seattle.
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on December 08, 2015, 01:33:36 AM
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DNA on clasp

I just received an email from Chris Ingalls at KING 5 TV. He confirms that he was told by Larry Carr in 2007 that a DNA sample was retrieved from the tie and clasp, as Carr reported to me. This seems to contradict Georger, and more importantly puts G in a harsh light because Georger has just posted saying that he has had recent correspondence with Mr. Ingalls, but fails to mention the clasp.

The following is from Chris Ingalls:

"...The bottom line is that we have not reported that saliva was taken from the cigarette butts.
 
In 2003, I reported that a weak sample of DNA was retrieved from Cooper and it was now considered somewhat usable for ruling out a suspect.
 
In 2007, I reported that Agent Carr said that this DNA came from the tie clasp and tie clip recovered on the plane. (emphasis added, BAS.)

I don’t know that I ever reported it – but I have been told by at least a couple of FBI agents that the cigarette butts were lost at some point.
 
Chris Ingalls
News Reporter"

Nothing I have said puts me in a harsh light. That's absurd, Mr. Drama Queen Smith. Show any public statement Carr made where he says the dna came off the clasp? That is all I have been saying. It's odd Carr would give out one story publicly then turn around and give out another story to you and King-5. Why didn't Carr or you post this information to Dropzone? Shutter says he saw it only on your website at Mountain News.

Likewise, I have the transcripts Chris Ingalls sent me. Neither transcript mentions tie clasp. The 2007 transcript Ingalls did with Carr says only:   FOR THE FIRST TIME -- THE F-B-I CONFIRMS THAT HAS BEEN ABLE TO DEVELOP A D-N-A SAMPLE FROM EVIDENCE COLLECTED FROM THE TIE IN 2001. The 2003 Ingalls transcript says nothing.
So I guess Ingalls has some other story he failed to mention to me and failed to copy to me, he is now citing to you?

Has it occurred to you Carr might be wrong?  :) :) :) :)


 





 
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on December 08, 2015, 02:18:36 AM
For the first time I am now even wondering about the viability of the FBI partial profile if as Smith reports they took the sample from the tie clasp - that is the last place most people I know would sample. Again, Carr never said one word about tie clasp on DZ; he always spoke of the sample taken from the tie. This lead to the discussion one would expect namely, 'did the sample come from the neck area on the tie', which was strengthened by Blevins' revelation that the FBI sample was based on "epithelial" cells. Th neck is a well known source for such cells. Moreover the obvious place to sample is the neck area of the tie where the tie rubbed against the wearer's neck. Cells found on a clasp could be anyone's! Multiple people handled it. Presumably only one person wore the tie during its last adventure in the world and the wearer's cells would be embedded in the underside wove of the fabric where there was contact with the wearer's skin.

I wonder what Tom Kaye knows about this? There is nothing about the FBI dna sample on his website. And Tom is well enough versed in this subject to have an opinion.

How far can one go on so little information? Not very far. The Cooper case has turned into a roadshow and a carnival. Bring in the clowns.


 
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Shutter on December 08, 2015, 06:22:46 AM
Listen up guys!

You need to have a civil disagreement, or nothing!

Bruce, please don't stoop to using Blevin's tactics by posting people's names who don't wish to have them made public. (regardless to it being in a book). I seen an edit made 14 minutes after the original post was made. I don't know if the full name was there or not. this occurred after I shut down for the evening.

I received a complaint/threat that I don't appreciate what so ever! resolve your differences in a civil manner.

 

Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Shutter on December 08, 2015, 06:24:04 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNpiQwgStNA
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on December 08, 2015, 01:18:18 PM
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Listen up guys!

You need to have a civil disagreement, or nothing!

Bruce, please don't stoop to using Blevin's tactics by posting people's names who don't wish to have them made public. (regardless to it being in a book). I seen an edit made 14 minutes after the original post was made. I don't know if the full name was there or not. this occurred after I shut down for the evening.

I received a complaint/threat that I don't appreciate what so ever! resolve your differences in a civil manner.

Let's summarise: The claim that the Cooper cigarette butts were processed for dna, remains unproven.  The claim that the tie clasp provided a positive result, vs. the tie itself, seems to be corroborated by Chris Ingalls at KING-5 in private conversation he had with Larry Carr? But so far, there is no instance of Carr saying this publicy, for example at Dropzone. It would be interesting to know where Tom Kaye stands in this matter given his conversations with Carr.

It's worth noting that if the FBI were to send some knowledgeable person to this website to answer questions, perhaps none of this speculation-discussion would be necessary.

Why does any of this matter? It matters because we would like to know who Cooper was. Cooper's personal genetic info might go some distance to identifying who Cooper was, and was-not. For example, Flo said Cooper looked Latin to her; the bulk of suspects suggested by the public on forums so far have all been non-Latin. Another witness said he had the impression the FBI was concentrating on suspects from the Eugene Oregon area. And we know almost nothing about how any dna profile the FBI has influenced their search for DB Cooper except that the FBI says their profile can exclude people and people including Christiansen, Weber, Peterson, etal have all been excluded on genetic basis alone.

In addition, we know literally nothing about the FBI's pursuit of genetic data in the Cooper case. We hear terms like 'partial profile', 'multiple tests', 'epithelial cells', 'touch dna off the clip', 'collected dna from ... in 2000/2001', 'can rule people out but not people in', et cetera ... but we have no official history of the FBI's actual pursuit of genetic evidence in the Cooper case, a pursuit which began later in the case because this science was not available in the 1970s when the hijacking happened.

I think these are questions we all would like answers to.         


 
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 08, 2015, 04:54:37 PM
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Listen up guys!

You need to have a civil disagreement, or nothing!

Bruce, please don't stoop to using Blevin's tactics by posting people's names who don't wish to have them made public. (regardless to it being in a book). I seen an edit made 14 minutes after the original post was made. I don't know if the full name was there or not. this occurred after I shut down for the evening.

I received a complaint/threat that I don't appreciate what so ever! resolve your differences in a civil manner.

I do not understand what is going on. Please clarify.

As for posting people's names, here is what I have done recently regarding the DNA investigation:

I talked with Chris Ingalls and posted his name in full, along with part of an email he sent to me explaining his involvement with developing stories for KING TV on DB Cooper and DNA. Chris is after all, a public figure and TV broadcaster. At the least, he deserves attribution for his work. Further, he never asked to be off-the-record, nor asked for confidentiality. In my view, whenever a public figure feels a need for an elevated degree of privacy, I feel it is their responsibility to ask for it, not mine.

Because of the confusion over whether a story on cigarettes has been broadcast or not, I contacted  the archival departments at both KING TV and KIRO TV. In doing so, I spoke with individuals there and posted their first names to give a measure of clarity to who was saying what about whom.

No one has complained to me about that usage, as far as I know.

To be compared to Bobby Blevs is bizarre. Really?

As for threats, I have not made any to anyone, nor have I received any. As for ridicule, well, it's just been another day in the office so to speak...
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: 377 on December 08, 2015, 05:54:41 PM
Bruce wrote: As for ridicule, well, it's just been another day in the office so to speak...

Worn soles and thick skins.  Long live feet on the street investigative reporters.

377
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 10, 2015, 02:14:12 AM
New Lead for DNA

I'm expanding my search for information on the sources of DNA available to the Norjak investigation. Next up is contacting the FBI Forensic Sciences Research and Training Center in Quantico, VA directly. After reading Ayn's last email, the Seattle FO is clearly no longer an option for us.

Also, I'm in contact with another author who is investigating the FBI's crime lab, John F Kelley. He's co-author of Tainted Evidence: Inside the Scandals at the FBI Crime Lab. What I've read so far ain't a pretty picture. My understanding is that up to 20 percent of the findings at the FBI lab are suspect due to faulty supervision, mishandling of evidence, sloppy documentation, malfeasance and corruption.

So, get ready all you FBI apologists out there! I'm sure I'll have plenty of stuff to put you in a tizzy.
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on December 11, 2015, 12:33:50 AM
What would the partial CODIS profile the FBI says it has, tell us about Cooper's physical traits?

 ;D
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 11, 2015, 03:23:54 AM
What would CODIS say? Hmmm, I don't know at this moment, as I am tip-toeing into the World OF DNA Analysis.

But, since I'm learning the basics, I thought it might be best to share what I'm discovering as I go along.

1. What is CODIS?
CODIS is an acronym for COmbined Dna Index System. The website for the FBI Crime Lab says that CODIS is the "codename for the FBI's program of support of criminal justice databases." To me, that means that CODIS is the Big Kahuna of DNA databanks, coupled with the computer software to handle all the request for matches, information, profile analysis, etc.


2. What is NDIS?
NDIS is another acronym that pops up on DNA websites, and NDIS stands for Natioanl Dna Index System. NDIS is part of CODIS, and it seems to be the core of the system. Specifically, NDIS is the databank of DNA profiles.


3. DNA Analysis
The DNA analyzing department is part of the Biometrics Division of the FBI Crime Lab, which has a couple dozen separate divisions, like fingerprinting, bomb residues, and gun stuff.


4. Missing Persons
Interestingly, the FBI's Missing Person section is part of the Biometrics Division, and is heavily connected to DNA profiling. Hence, the National Missing Persons DNA Database (NMPDD) is part of NDIS.
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on December 11, 2015, 04:06:02 AM
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What would CODIS say? Hmmm, I don't know at this moment, as I am tip-toeing into the World OF DNA Analysis.

But, since I'm learning the basics, I thought it might be best to share what I'm discovering as I go along.

1. What is CODIS?
CODIS is an acronym for COmbined Dna Index System. The website for the FBI Crime Lab says that CODIS is the "codename for the FBI's program of support of criminal justice databases." To me, that means that CODIS is the Big Kahuna of DNA databanks, coupled with the computer software to handle all the request for matches, information, profile analysis, etc.


2. What is NDIS?
NDIS is another acronym that pops up on DNA websites, and NDIS stands for Natioanl Dna Index System. NDIS is part of CODIS, and it seems to be the core of the system. Specifically, NDIS is the databank of DNA profiles.


3. DNA Analysis
The DNA analyzing department is part of the Biometrics Division of the FBI Crime Lab, which has a couple dozen separate divisions, like fingerprinting, bomb residues, and gun stuff.


4. Missing Persons
Interestingly, the FBI's Missing Person section is part of the Biometrics Division, and is heavily connected to DNA profiling. Hence, the National Missing Persons DNA Database (NMPDD) is part of NDIS.
What would the partial CODIS profile the FBI says it has, tell us about Cooper's physical traits?

Well I will save you years of guessing: the answer is 'nothing'. AMEL the gender loci, if it is there, would tell you the sex.
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 11, 2015, 03:47:39 PM
AMEL means male or female, eh? See, I'm feeling smarter already!  Thanks, G.
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on December 11, 2015, 11:30:54 PM
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AMEL means male or female, eh? See, I'm feeling smarter already!  Thanks, G.

There's a ton of info on the internet - just takes time to absorb.
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 12, 2015, 07:18:55 PM
DNA getting complicated

The inquiry into DB Cooper's DNA is leading to lots of other issues, such as the Bureau's unsavory actions at the National Crime Lab. In the mid-1990s the DoJ started an 18-month investigation of the National Crime Lab due to ten years worth of accusations from Supervising Special Agent Dr. Frederic Whitehurst, who also has a Ph.D. in Chemistry. He charged systemic wrongdoing at the lab, such as evidence tampering, lying to the courts when testifying, falsifying reports, chronic lack of proper documentation, lousy supervision, and a prevailing conflict of interest as lab techs were special agents and not trained in the sciences, so their main mission was to get convictions as opposed to discovering the truth.

The Inspector General at the DOJ found no criminal wrongdoing, (!) but confirmed Whitehurst's allegations. An oversight panel began implementing 40 recommendations for improvements, but Whitehurst got demoted and transferred. In 2000 or so he won a $1.8 million judgment against the FBI for their nasty behavior.

Congress couldn't stand the stench, either, so their formed their own investigation in 1998, but got stonewalled by the FBI, which ultimately got a bigger budget so they could fix things at the lab.

Whitehurst went on to develop the National Whistleblowers Center and the Forensic Justice Project, to "find out who got hurt" with all the forensic fraud the FBI perpetrated.

Currently, hundreds of cases have been overturned due to FBI malfeasance.

Into this mix, our 8 cigarette butts got thrown. Wowzer, eh?

Fidelity, Bravery and Integrity. Yup.
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on December 13, 2015, 12:17:58 AM
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DNA getting complicated

The inquiry into DB Cooper's DNA is leading to lots of other issues, such as the Bureau's unsavory actions at the National Crime Lab. In the mid-1990s the DoJ started an 18-month investigation of the National Crime Lab due to ten years worth of accusations from Supervising Special Agent Dr. Frederic Whitehurst, who also has a Ph.D. in Chemistry. He charged systemic wrongdoing at the lab, such as evidence tampering, lying to the courts when testifying, falsifying reports, chronic lack of proper documentation, lousy supervision, and a prevailing conflict of interest as lab techs were special agents and not trained in the sciences, so their main mission was to get convictions as opposed to discovering the truth.

The Inspector General at the DOJ found no criminal wrongdoing, (!) but confirmed Whitehurst's allegations. An oversight panel began implementing 40 recommendations for improvements, but Whitehurst got demoted and transferred. In 2000 or so he won a $1.8 million judgment against the FBI for their nasty behavior.

Congress couldn't stand the stench, either, so their formed their own investigation in 1998, but got stonewalled by the FBI, which ultimately got a bigger budget so they could fix things at the lab.

Whitehurst went on to develop the National Whistleblowers Center and the Forensic Justice Project, to "find out who got hurt" with all the forensic fraud the FBI perpetrated.

Currently, hundreds of cases have been overturned due to FBI malfeasance.

Into this mix, our 8 cigarette butts got thrown. Wowzer, eh?

Fidelity, Bravery and Integrity. Yup.

All in your opinion, of course! WOWZER? EH?  :(  We all know you are a Conspiracy Theory Guy... like Blevins and Weber.  :D  You havent shown the slightest connection between yours above and the DB Cooper case but given your bias it doesn't prevent you pushing this cow down the road! 
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 13, 2015, 03:52:22 AM
Georger, you don't see any connection between the catastrophe at the FBI's National Crime Lab and the stuff that happened with Norjak evidence?

Really?

Our eight cigarette butts went missing at the same time the Inspector general of the DOJ was saying the National Lab was subject to poor documentation, incompetent examiners, lying and deceptive practices in the lab and on the witness stand?

And then the US Congress had to get involved?

Your answer to all of that is that I'm a conspiracy nut?

You serious?
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 13, 2015, 06:18:30 PM
DNA, Update

Here is a draft of my latest findings on DNA. I invite comments and suggestions:

Chapter 16

Emergence of DNA as a forensic tool


One of the primary dynamics fueling the resurgence of the Cooper case has been the widespread use of DNA to evaluate suspects. Developed initially in the 1980s, DNA analysis was in full swing by the late 1990s, and with it came the ability to trump Cooper’s careful efforts to mask his identity. In essence, DNA testing has re-opened the case, and the FBI has re-examined its top Cooper suspects.

However, the DNA in Norjak is suspect, as not all sources of DNA are equal. Apparently, the best samples come from bodily fluids, such as saliva, which should be available from the eight cigarette butts retrieved in Reno. Next are skin tissues, such as epithelial cells. Last are hair samples, which were reported obtained from the head-rest cloth of seat 18-E. However, it is unknown if any hair samples have been tested for DNA.

But finding appropriate physical samples to be sources for Cooper's DNA is problematic. Carr confirmed that the eight cigarette butts are now missing. In addition, Carr has acknowledged that he and the Seattle FO never had possession of them, and that the cigarettes had been stored in the Las Vegas FO. Why Carr and other Norjak case agents in Seattle did not have absolute authority to gather all pertinent evidence from all FBI field offices has never been explained. Nevertheless, the best source for DB Cooper's DNA is now officially missing.

But, were they ever tested for DNA? Carr posted a cryptic message at the DropZone on December 18, 2007 that suggests they might have been. Carr stated that the FBI had possession of the cigarettes for at least a period of time and had “processed” them. Does that mean analyzed? Carr isn't available to clarify this, but his post at the DZ was in response to a question from 377 and Smokin99 about the fate of the cigarette butts:
      
   “Still looking for the cigarettes, after they were processed in the lab they were sent back to the field. So they are somewhere between Washington,DC and Seattle or disposed of.”

Nevertheless in 2008, Cooper case agent Larry Carr told me that epithelial cells found on the clasp of the clip-on tie were being used to extract the DNA to compare Cooper suspects. Carr also acknowledged that the skin samples on the clasp could be DB Cooper’s, or any number of people who have handled the tie since the recovery in Reno.

        “The DNA could be Cooper’s, or not,” Carr told me, acknowledging the unreliably of this sample. In fact, Carr posted the disturbing truth at the DZ on December 13, 2007, “Yes, there were multiple male donors on the tie.”

Adding more concern to the chain of custody issue of whose epithelial cells are on the clasp, the tie was four days late to Seattle, held somewhere by somebody over the Thanksgiving holiday weekend. The leading suspect for this gaff is Las Vegas SAC Red Campbell, who led the evidence retrieval team in Reno.

Carr also told me that the DNA sample the FBI had from the epithelial cells was a “partial,” and could only be used to rule-out suspects, not necessarily prove DB Cooper's identity. This element of “partiality” remains a controversial aspect of Norjak. Specifically, how partial is the sample, and what are the exact limitations of the sample?

Additionally, the information from the Formans puts this dilemma into an even darker light—the best DNA samples went missing just as their contributions were called upon to solve the case. The Formans also say the FBI did have the Reno cigarette butts, based upon a TV news broadcast they viewed in 2001 or 2202, which described how the FBI had profiled Cooper’s DNA derived from dried saliva. The Formans say they learned this from the NBC Seattle affiliate, KING-5 nightly news, reportedly delivered by Dennis Bounds, their longtime news anchor. Here is one of several emails the Formans sent to me on this subject:

        “The KING 5 news story we heard was before 2003. We both remember Dennis Bounds reporting that the FBI now had DNA from the Raleigh cigarettes. We remember it because we were excited that we could finally prove that Barb was Cooper. Barb was still alive at the time. We also saw articles back then about the FBI doing comparisons to the DNA from the Raleigh cigarettes.
       “We apparently missed the 2003 story that the cigarettes were lost and there was a partial from the tie. We found out about that much after 2003.”

To confirm the Formans' story I enlisted the help of “Linda” at KING TV, who searched the stations' archives. She found nothing on the cigarette butts, but recommended that I also contact KIRO TV, as the two stations are often confused for each other. Hence, I spoke with a “Sharon” at KIRO, who diligently searched her archives but could only access back to 2004.

I also contacted Chris Ingalls, a long-time KING TV news reporter who has covered the DB Cooper case in-depth. He graciously responded to my request for clarification on what he knew about Norjak DNA:
   
   “I’ve spoken with Dennis Bounds. He’s our main news anchor, and he has not produced any DB Cooper stories. However, he introduced several of the stories that I reported – so that may be where the confusion lies.
   “The bottom line is that we have not reported that saliva was taken from the cigarette butts. In 2003, I reported that a weak sample of DNA was retrieved from Cooper and it was now considered somewhat usable for ruling out a suspect. In 2007, I reported that Agent Carr said that this DNA came from the tie clasp and tie clip recovered on the plane.
   “I don’t know that I ever reported it – but I have been told by at least a couple of FBI agents that the cigarette butts were lost at some point.”
   
Yet, the possibility of TV broadcast on DNA from cigarette butts suggests that the FBI had developed a press release to assist journalists in developing their story.

Further, the Formans heard the broadcast just as they were beginning the research on their Barb Dayton book, so they fully expected that the documentation would be available to them as investigators. Hence, they were shocked in 2006 when Special Agent Jeremy Blauser told them that it wasn’t, which suggests that the possible documentation on the cigarette saliva DNA tests is also missing.

I sought the assistance of Seattle PIO Ayn Dietrich-Williams in locating any FBI press releases that could confirm the testing of saliva from the cigarettes. However, her answer not only set new levels for opaqueness, she officially slammed the door on any future efforts to assist open-sourced journalists investigating Norjak:   

   “ I’m sorry to disappoint you, yet again, but it would not be appropriate at this time for me to provide details about the investigation. As you are aware, there was a time when the FBI’s Seattle Division answered media questions and proactively sought coverage. At that time, the FBI thought it might be beneficial to the investigation to share information publicly.
   “The FBI’s (current) media policy prohibits discussing ongoing investigations unless a release is specifically thought to have potential benefit to the investigation. Following further investigative efforts, the FBI in the fall of 2011 determined that media coverage of the case was more detrimental than helpful. We’ve found that media coverage generates considerable new interest, which is not proportional to where we are in allocating resources to this investigation.
   “I understand your continued interest in our investigation and apologize that I will not be able to share additional information to answer your questions.”

So, the cigarettes remain a mystery, and apparently will remain so until a breakthrough occurs at the FBI. But related questions linger: is anyone looking for the cigarette butts, and if not, why not? Plus, where is the paper work that surely was developed when the cigarette butts were tested? In effect, we have two major missing pieces of evidence—the cigarette butts and its documentation.

Fortunately, these inquiries have given us confirmation that Larry Carr told another news reporter the FBI had obtained DNA samples from the tie and clasp, and those elements are sufficient for the FBI to advance the hunt for DB Cooper.

Unfortunately, these investigatory kerfuffles exist in a larger environment of questionable practices at the FBI's Forensic Science Research and Training Center in Quantico, Virginia and its crime lab at its Washington, DC headquarters.

In the mid-1990s, the FBI's National Crime Laboratory (NCL) was subjected to an 18-month investigation by the Inspector General of the Department of Justice, triggered by a decade's worth of allegations and persistent whistleblowing by one of the NCL's former supervising agents, Dr. Frederic Whitehurst.

Beginning in 1986, Whitehurst charged that the NCL was compromised by corruption, incompetence, and conflicts of interest—most notably the hiring of special agents without scientific degrees to do lab investigations, thereby insuring a prosecutorial bias. At its worst, though, Whitehurst charged that the lab had falsified, altered or suppressed evidence in thousands of case.

In April 1997, the Inspector General released a 517-page report of its investigation, and according to the New York Times it confirmed Whitehurst's assertions of “testimonial errors, substandard analytical work and poor practices at the lab's chemistry-toxicology, explosives and material analysis units.”

But it found no criminal wrongdoing. Nevertheless, an oversight panel recommended forty changes for the laboratory.  Since the IG's report only examined three of the FBI's 21 lab divisions and confined itself primarily to Dr. Whitehurst's allegations,  the US Congress launched its own investigation: "A Review of the FBI Laboratory: Beyond the Inspector General's Report."

The findings are shocking. Decades later, convictions are reportedly still being overturned due to the evidentiary errors revealed by this process. The Atlantic Magazine published a review of the Washington Post's investigation of the IG's findings, stating:    

   "Nearly every examiner in an elite FBI forensic unit gave flawed testimony in almost all trials in which they offered evidence against criminal defendants over more than a two-decade period before 2000," the newspaper reported, adding that 'the cases include those of 32 defendants sentenced to death.'
   "The article notes that the admissions from the FBI and Department of Justice 'confirm long-suspected problems with subjective, pattern-based forensic techniques—like hair and bite-mark comparisons—that have contributed to wrongful convictions in more than one-quarter of 329 DNA-exoneration cases since 1989.'"

PBS-TV broadcast a special documentary on these travesties, and the chief producer, John F Kelly, in conjunction with Phillip K Wearne, wrote a book about his discoveries: Tainting Evidence—Inside the Scandals at the FBI's Crime Lab. Below is one example of how egregious an FBI agent performed at the National Crime Lab—the infamous Special Agent Thomas N Curran:

   “In February 1975, an internal FBI investigation into the activities of Special Agent Thomas N. Curran, an examiner in the FBI lab's serology unit, revealed a staggering record of perjury, incompetence and falsification.
   “At the trial of Thomas Doepel for rape and murder in Washington, D.C. in 1974, Curran testified under oath that he had a bachelor and masters degree in science, that both Doepel and the victim were blood type O and that the defendant's shorts bore a single bloodstain. In reality, Curran had no degree in anything; Doepel, on re-testing, turned out to be blood type B; and the shorts evidenced two, not one blood stain.”

Further, Kelly and Wearne show that these kinds of problems at the Crime Lab were widespread and ignored by supervisors:

   “Curran's aberrations...were systemic. Curran had issued reports of blood analyses when "no laboratory tests were done"; had relied on presumptive tests to draw up confirmatory results and written up inadequate and deceptive lab reports, ignoring or distorting tests results.
   “'The real issue is that he chose to ignore the virtue of integrity and to lie when asked if specific tests were conducted,' concluded Cochran's report to the then head of the FBI laboratory, Dr. Briggs White.
   “It was an early warning of what could happen at the FBI lab. Tom Curran turned out to have lied repeatedly under oath about his credentials and his reports were persistently deceptive, yet no one, FBI lab management, defense lawyers, judges, had noticed. When they did, there was no prosecution for perjury.”

Kelly and Wearne also reveal that the biggest and most persistent problem at the FBI's crime lab has been documentation. Perhaps it's the culture of cops working as forensic scientists and focused on convictions rather than truth. Nevertheless, it has a direct connection to the on-going issue with the cigarette butts and DB Cooper's DNA. Kelly and Wearne state:

   “Documentation is a case in point. Examiners have proved remarkably loath to write up their bench notes in any adequate scientific manner. No names, no chain of custody history, no testing chronology, no details of supervisory oversight, no confirmatory tests, no signatures—such omissions are quite normal in FBI lab reports.
   “What they do contain is obfuscation and overstated conclusions written in an often-incomprehensible style that some experts have termed 'forensonics.' Terms like 'match' or 'consistent with' are common; chronicled scientific procedures and protocols to justify them are not.”

Another issue that Kelly and Wearne address is the insufficient effort given by the FBI to  preserve its evidence, and a systemwide failure to insure adequate protection of the rights of the accused, including irresponsible inaction by the Supreme Court.

   “An obligation to preserve evidence would seem to be at the heart of the Brady decision, (the ruling by the Supreme Court that a defendant has the right to evidence that can show their innocence.) If evidence, specimens, reports, or bench notes are destroyed or discarded, how can anyone determine what was exculpatory? But on two separate occasions the Supreme Court has declined to interpret the Brady ruling as including a duty to preserve evidence. Startling amounts of evidence – bullets, blood samples, hair—are routinely trashed at the FBI and other crime labs.
   “...At the FBI lab, an even larger amount of paperwork -- reports, bench notes and charts -- has been lost in a filing and record retention system no one, including management, seems to be able to rely on.”

Hence, the loss of DB Cooper's cigarette butts seems in line with how criminal evidence in the United States is often handled, even by the FBI.

Competency at the FBI Crime Lab, and elsewhere in the nation's 400 state and local crime labs, is also highly suspect. Kelly and Wearne reveal that proficiency exams and national certification boards for the forensic sciences are determining that professional expertise is highly variable. In fact, up to 20% of evidence has been shown to be misidentified at the local and national level, as indicated in a recent survey of fingerprinting experts:
   
       “In...more than one-in-five instances 'damning evidence would have been presented against the wrong person' noted David Grieve, editor of the fingerprinters' magazine, The Journal of Forensic Identification.
   “Worse still, examiners knew they were being tested and were thus presumably more careful and freer from law enforcement pressures.       
   “Calling for immediate action, David Grieve concluded: 'If one-in-five latent fingerprint examiners truly possesses knowledge, skill or ability at a level below an acceptable and understood baseline, then the entire profession is in jeopardy.'
   “The same must be true of every suspect in the country, the vast majority of whom never get a fingerprint expert onto their defense team or any chance of a re-examination. Many crime laboratories routinely destroy fingerprint evidence.”

Perhaps the greatest example of evidentiary malfeasance regarding DNA is the impact of the Innocence Project. Since its founding in 1992, the Innocence Project has used DNA analysis to exonerate over 300 individuals wrongfully convicted, including twenty from Death Row. The Innocence Project estimates that half of those convictions overturned were due to “unvalidated or improper forensic science,” such as hair microscopy or bite-mark comparisons.

Of course, these acts of injustice occurred nationwide in state and local prisons besides federal penitentiaries, but such a broad view gives us a deeper appreciation of what may have happened to the physical evidence in Norjak.



Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on December 14, 2015, 12:18:27 AM
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DNA, Update

Here is a draft of my latest findings on DNA. I invite comments and suggestions:

Chapter 16

Emergence of DNA as a forensic tool


One of the primary dynamics fueling the resurgence of the Cooper case has been the widespread use of DNA to evaluate suspects. Developed initially in the 1980s, DNA analysis was in full swing by the late 1990s, and with it came the ability to trump Cooper’s careful efforts to mask his identity. In essence, DNA testing has re-opened the case, and the FBI has re-examined its top Cooper suspects.

However, the DNA in Norjak is suspect, as not all sources of DNA are equal. Apparently, the best samples come from bodily fluids, such as saliva, which should be available from the eight cigarette butts retrieved in Reno. Next are skin tissues, such as epithelial cells. Last are hair samples, which were reported obtained from the head-rest cloth of seat 18-E. However, it is unknown if any hair samples have been tested for DNA.

But finding appropriate physical samples to be sources for Cooper's DNA is problematic. Carr confirmed that the eight cigarette butts are now missing. In addition, Carr has acknowledged that he and the Seattle FO never had possession of them, and that the cigarettes had been stored in the Las Vegas FO. Why Carr and other Norjak case agents in Seattle did not have absolute authority to gather all pertinent evidence from all FBI field offices has never been explained. Nevertheless, the best source for DB Cooper's DNA is now officially missing.

But, were they ever tested for DNA? Carr posted a cryptic message at the DropZone on December 18, 2007 that suggests they might have been. Carr stated that the FBI had possession of the cigarettes for at least a period of time and had “processed” them. Does that mean analyzed? Carr isn't available to clarify this, but his post at the DZ was in response to a question from 377 and Smokin99 about the fate of the cigarette butts:
      
   “Still looking for the cigarettes, after they were processed in the lab they were sent back to the field. So they are somewhere between Washington,DC and Seattle or disposed of.”

Nevertheless in 2008, Cooper case agent Larry Carr told me that epithelial cells found on the clasp of the clip-on tie were being used to extract the DNA to compare Cooper suspects. Carr also acknowledged that the skin samples on the clasp could be DB Cooper’s, or any number of people who have handled the tie since the recovery in Reno.

        “The DNA could be Cooper’s, or not,” Carr told me, acknowledging the unreliably of this sample. In fact, Carr posted the disturbing truth at the DZ on December 13, 2007, “Yes, there were multiple male donors on the tie.”

Adding more concern to the chain of custody issue of whose epithelial cells are on the clasp, the tie was four days late to Seattle, held somewhere by somebody over the Thanksgiving holiday weekend. The leading suspect for this gaff is Las Vegas SAC Red Campbell, who led the evidence retrieval team in Reno.

Carr also told me that the DNA sample the FBI had from the epithelial cells was a “partial,” and could only be used to rule-out suspects, not necessarily prove DB Cooper's identity. This element of “partiality” remains a controversial aspect of Norjak. Specifically, how partial is the sample, and what are the exact limitations of the sample?

Additionally, the information from the Formans puts this dilemma into an even darker light—the best DNA samples went missing just as their contributions were called upon to solve the case. The Formans also say the FBI did have the Reno cigarette butts, based upon a TV news broadcast they viewed in 2001 or 2202, which described how the FBI had profiled Cooper’s DNA derived from dried saliva. The Formans say they learned this from the NBC Seattle affiliate, KING-5 nightly news, reportedly delivered by Dennis Bounds, their longtime news anchor. Here is one of several emails the Formans sent to me on this subject:

        “The KING 5 news story we heard was before 2003. We both remember Dennis Bounds reporting that the FBI now had DNA from the Raleigh cigarettes. We remember it because we were excited that we could finally prove that Barb was Cooper. Barb was still alive at the time. We also saw articles back then about the FBI doing comparisons to the DNA from the Raleigh cigarettes.
       “We apparently missed the 2003 story that the cigarettes were lost and there was a partial from the tie. We found out about that much after 2003.”

To confirm the Formans' story I enlisted the help of “Linda” at KING TV, who searched the stations' archives. She found nothing on the cigarette butts, but recommended that I also contact KIRO TV, as the two stations are often confused for each other. Hence, I spoke with a “Sharon” at KIRO, who diligently searched her archives but could only access back to 2004.

I also contacted Chris Ingalls, a long-time KING TV news reporter who has covered the DB Cooper case in-depth. He graciously responded to my request for clarification on what he knew about Norjak DNA:
   
   “I’ve spoken with Dennis Bounds. He’s our main news anchor, and he has not produced any DB Cooper stories. However, he introduced several of the stories that I reported – so that may be where the confusion lies.
   “The bottom line is that we have not reported that saliva was taken from the cigarette butts. In 2003, I reported that a weak sample of DNA was retrieved from Cooper and it was now considered somewhat usable for ruling out a suspect. In 2007, I reported that Agent Carr said that this DNA came from the tie clasp and tie clip recovered on the plane.
   “I don’t know that I ever reported it – but I have been told by at least a couple of FBI agents that the cigarette butts were lost at some point.”
   
Yet, the possibility of TV broadcast on DNA from cigarette butts suggests that the FBI had developed a press release to assist journalists in developing their story.

Further, the Formans heard the broadcast just as they were beginning the research on their Barb Dayton book, so they fully expected that the documentation would be available to them as investigators. Hence, they were shocked in 2006 when Special Agent Jeremy Blauser told them that it wasn’t, which suggests that the possible documentation on the cigarette saliva DNA tests is also missing.

I sought the assistance of Seattle PIO Ayn Dietrich-Williams in locating any FBI press releases that could confirm the testing of saliva from the cigarettes. However, her answer not only set new levels for opaqueness, she officially slammed the door on any future efforts to assist open-sourced journalists investigating Norjak:   

   “ I’m sorry to disappoint you, yet again, but it would not be appropriate at this time for me to provide details about the investigation. As you are aware, there was a time when the FBI’s Seattle Division answered media questions and proactively sought coverage. At that time, the FBI thought it might be beneficial to the investigation to share information publicly.
   “The FBI’s (current) media policy prohibits discussing ongoing investigations unless a release is specifically thought to have potential benefit to the investigation. Following further investigative efforts, the FBI in the fall of 2011 determined that media coverage of the case was more detrimental than helpful. We’ve found that media coverage generates considerable new interest, which is not proportional to where we are in allocating resources to this investigation.
   “I understand your continued interest in our investigation and apologize that I will not be able to share additional information to answer your questions.”

So, the cigarettes remain a mystery, and apparently will remain so until a breakthrough occurs at the FBI. But related questions linger: is anyone looking for the cigarette butts, and if not, why not? Plus, where is the paper work that surely was developed when the cigarette butts were tested? In effect, we have two major missing pieces of evidence—the cigarette butts and its documentation.

Fortunately, these inquiries have given us confirmation that Larry Carr told another news reporter the FBI had obtained DNA samples from the tie and clasp, and those elements are sufficient for the FBI to advance the hunt for DB Cooper.

Unfortunately, these investigatory kerfuffles exist in a larger environment of questionable practices at the FBI's Forensic Science Research and Training Center in Quantico, Virginia and its crime lab at its Washington, DC headquarters.

In the mid-1990s, the FBI's National Crime Laboratory (NCL) was subjected to an 18-month investigation by the Inspector General of the Department of Justice, triggered by a decade's worth of allegations and persistent whistleblowing by one of the NCL's former supervising agents, Dr. Frederic Whitehurst.

Beginning in 1986, Whitehurst charged that the NCL was compromised by corruption, incompetence, and conflicts of interest—most notably the hiring of special agents without scientific degrees to do lab investigations, thereby insuring a prosecutorial bias. At its worst, though, Whitehurst charged that the lab had falsified, altered or suppressed evidence in thousands of case.

In April 1997, the Inspector General released a 517-page report of its investigation, and according to the New York Times it confirmed Whitehurst's assertions of “testimonial errors, substandard analytical work and poor practices at the lab's chemistry-toxicology, explosives and material analysis units.”

But it found no criminal wrongdoing. Nevertheless, an oversight panel recommended forty changes for the laboratory.  Since the IG's report only examined three of the FBI's 21 lab divisions and confined itself primarily to Dr. Whitehurst's allegations,  the US Congress launched its own investigation: "A Review of the FBI Laboratory: Beyond the Inspector General's Report."

The findings are shocking. Decades later, convictions are reportedly still being overturned due to the evidentiary errors revealed by this process. The Atlantic Magazine published a review of the Washington Post's investigation of the IG's findings, stating:    

   "Nearly every examiner in an elite FBI forensic unit gave flawed testimony in almost all trials in which they offered evidence against criminal defendants over more than a two-decade period before 2000," the newspaper reported, adding that 'the cases include those of 32 defendants sentenced to death.'
   "The article notes that the admissions from the FBI and Department of Justice 'confirm long-suspected problems with subjective, pattern-based forensic techniques—like hair and bite-mark comparisons—that have contributed to wrongful convictions in more than one-quarter of 329 DNA-exoneration cases since 1989.'"

PBS-TV broadcast a special documentary on these travesties, and the chief producer, John F Kelly, in conjunction with Phillip K Wearne, wrote a book about his discoveries: Tainting Evidence—Inside the Scandals at the FBI's Crime Lab. Below is one example of how egregious an FBI agent performed at the National Crime Lab—the infamous Special Agent Thomas N Curran:

   “In February 1975, an internal FBI investigation into the activities of Special Agent Thomas N. Curran, an examiner in the FBI lab's serology unit, revealed a staggering record of perjury, incompetence and falsification.
   “At the trial of Thomas Doepel for rape and murder in Washington, D.C. in 1974, Curran testified under oath that he had a bachelor and masters degree in science, that both Doepel and the victim were blood type O and that the defendant's shorts bore a single bloodstain. In reality, Curran had no degree in anything; Doepel, on re-testing, turned out to be blood type B; and the shorts evidenced two, not one blood stain.”

Further, Kelly and Wearne show that these kinds of problems at the Crime Lab were widespread and ignored by supervisors:

   “Curran's aberrations...were systemic. Curran had issued reports of blood analyses when "no laboratory tests were done"; had relied on presumptive tests to draw up confirmatory results and written up inadequate and deceptive lab reports, ignoring or distorting tests results.
   “'The real issue is that he chose to ignore the virtue of integrity and to lie when asked if specific tests were conducted,' concluded Cochran's report to the then head of the FBI laboratory, Dr. Briggs White.
   “It was an early warning of what could happen at the FBI lab. Tom Curran turned out to have lied repeatedly under oath about his credentials and his reports were persistently deceptive, yet no one, FBI lab management, defense lawyers, judges, had noticed. When they did, there was no prosecution for perjury.”

Kelly and Wearne also reveal that the biggest and most persistent problem at the FBI's crime lab has been documentation. Perhaps it's the culture of cops working as forensic scientists and focused on convictions rather than truth. Nevertheless, it has a direct connection to the on-going issue with the cigarette butts and DB Cooper's DNA. Kelly and Wearne state:

   “Documentation is a case in point. Examiners have proved remarkably loath to write up their bench notes in any adequate scientific manner. No names, no chain of custody history, no testing chronology, no details of supervisory oversight, no confirmatory tests, no signatures—such omissions are quite normal in FBI lab reports.
   “What they do contain is obfuscation and overstated conclusions written in an often-incomprehensible style that some experts have termed 'forensonics.' Terms like 'match' or 'consistent with' are common; chronicled scientific procedures and protocols to justify them are not.”

Another issue that Kelly and Wearne address is the insufficient effort given by the FBI to  preserve its evidence, and a systemwide failure to insure adequate protection of the rights of the accused, including irresponsible inaction by the Supreme Court.

   “An obligation to preserve evidence would seem to be at the heart of the Brady decision, (the ruling by the Supreme Court that a defendant has the right to evidence that can show their innocence.) If evidence, specimens, reports, or bench notes are destroyed or discarded, how can anyone determine what was exculpatory? But on two separate occasions the Supreme Court has declined to interpret the Brady ruling as including a duty to preserve evidence. Startling amounts of evidence – bullets, blood samples, hair—are routinely trashed at the FBI and other crime labs.
   “...At the FBI lab, an even larger amount of paperwork -- reports, bench notes and charts -- has been lost in a filing and record retention system no one, including management, seems to be able to rely on.”

Hence, the loss of DB Cooper's cigarette butts seems in line with how criminal evidence in the United States is often handled, even by the FBI.

Competency at the FBI Crime Lab, and elsewhere in the nation's 400 state and local crime labs, is also highly suspect. Kelly and Wearne reveal that proficiency exams and national certification boards for the forensic sciences are determining that professional expertise is highly variable. In fact, up to 20% of evidence has been shown to be misidentified at the local and national level, as indicated in a recent survey of fingerprinting experts:
   
       “In...more than one-in-five instances 'damning evidence would have been presented against the wrong person' noted David Grieve, editor of the fingerprinters' magazine, The Journal of Forensic Identification.
   “Worse still, examiners knew they were being tested and were thus presumably more careful and freer from law enforcement pressures.       
   “Calling for immediate action, David Grieve concluded: 'If one-in-five latent fingerprint examiners truly possesses knowledge, skill or ability at a level below an acceptable and understood baseline, then the entire profession is in jeopardy.'
   “The same must be true of every suspect in the country, the vast majority of whom never get a fingerprint expert onto their defense team or any chance of a re-examination. Many crime laboratories routinely destroy fingerprint evidence.”

Perhaps the greatest example of evidentiary malfeasance regarding DNA is the impact of the Innocence Project. Since its founding in 1992, the Innocence Project has used DNA analysis to exonerate over 300 individuals wrongfully convicted, including twenty from Death Row. The Innocence Project estimates that half of those convictions overturned were due to “unvalidated or improper forensic science,” such as hair microscopy or bite-mark comparisons.

Of course, these acts of injustice occurred nationwide in state and local prisons besides federal penitentiaries, but such a broad view gives us a deeper appreciation of what may have happened to the physical evidence in Norjak.

Yours may be the single longest question ever constructed ...in the English language. You might consider checking with Guinness World Records; or at Alcoholics Anonymous ?   ;D

Just get rid of the periods and join it all together in one sentence, which it basically is.
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 16, 2015, 03:38:55 AM
Dr. Frederic Whitehurst

I spoke with Fred Whitehurst yesterday for an extensive period of time. Fascinating guy. One of the most interesting people I have spoken with in conjunction to Norjak. For those who might have missed my description of Whitehurst in the above post on "Chapter 16," Fred Whitehurst was the Supervising Special Agent at the FBI's National Crime Lab for about ten years or so - late 1980s until 1998, when he was transferred and demoted. Afterwards, he sued the Bureau and won $1.8 million.

He was the key agent to trigger the federal and congressional investigation of the NCL in 1996, and is featured in the book Tainting Evidence - Inside the Scandals at the FBI's Crime Lab.

Fred had a LOT to say about the FBI, and how the crime lab operates. He wasn't surprised to hear about the journey DNA has traveled in Norjak. He didn't have any information to share on the subject, but volunteered to review any and all FBI documents we might have. "I could help you by explaining what all the symbols and codes mean in the margins - things like that."

In general, his view is that the degree of fraud, deceit, and malfeasance at the FBI and their crime lab is much worse than any investigation is going to be able to uncover. He said that his whistleblowers organization is investigating 21,700 convictions by the feds that may have been obtained through fraudulent means. Plus, he told me two anecdotal stories of LE whistleblowers being intimidated by the FBI in outrageous ways - one was a false sexual abuse charge and the other was a kidnapping of an examiner's child. Wild stuff.

We also talked at length about dealing with people who blow us off by shouting we are conspiratorialists and wackos. We also talked about fanatics who are wackos, and what life is like having them as part-time allies and full-time pain-in-the-asses.
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: georger on December 16, 2015, 04:19:04 AM
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Dr. Frederic Whitehurst

I spoke with Fred Whitehurst yesterday for an extensive period of time. Fascinating guy. One of the most interesting people I have spoken with in conjunction to Norjak. For those who might have missed my description of Whitehurst in the above post on "Chapter 16," Fred Whitehurst was the Supervising Special Agent at the FBI's National Crime Lab for about ten years or so - late 1980s until 1998, when he was transferred and demoted. Afterwards, he sued the Bureau and won $1.8 million.

He was the key agent to trigger the federal and congressional investigation of the NCL in 1996, and is featured in the book Tainting Evidence - Inside the Scandals at the FBI's Crime Lab.

Fred had a LOT to say about the FBI, and how the crime lab operates. He wasn't surprised to hear about the journey DNA has traveled in Norjak. He didn't have any information to share on the subject, but volunteered to review any and all FBI documents we might have. "I could help you by explaining what all the symbols and codes mean in the margins - things like that."

In general, his view is that the degree of fraud, deceit, and malfeasance at the FBI and their crime lab is much worse than any investigation is going to be able to uncover. He said that his whistleblowers organization is investigating 21,700 convictions by the feds that may have been obtained through fraudulent means. Plus, he told me two anecdotal stories of LE whistleblowers being intimidated by the FBI in outrageous ways - one was a false sexual abuse charge and the other was a kidnapping of an examiner's child. Wild stuff.

We also talked at length about dealing with people who blow us off by shouting we are conspiratorialists and wackos. We also talked about fanatics who are wackos, and what life is like having them as part-time allies and full-time pain-in-the-asses.

and what has any of this to do with the Cooper case? Are you now alleging FBI fraud in the dna workups for Cooper evidence?
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: sailshaw on December 16, 2015, 10:59:08 AM
Bruce Smith:  Did you miss in your Chapter 16 that the DNA from under the envelope flaps and stamps of the four letters sent to the newspapers just after Norjak has yet to be examined by the FBI?

As you know I propose that comparing the four letter DNA with what the FBI has from Sheridan Peterson and a match will "blow the case wide open" and lead to solving it very quickly and at little expense. Now this is the "smoking gun" in the case as because the FBI is on stop and this great opportunity remains unexplored. A match with Sheridan will prove he was in the Portland area, the scene  of the crime and not in Nepal per his phony alibi.

Lying to the FBI could put Sheridan in jail by its self and that threat could be used to trade for the real DB Cooper story from him.

This DNA info should be included in your Chapter 16 about DNA in the case.

Thank you,
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
Title: Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 16, 2015, 04:23:13 PM
You're correct, Sail. But the issue is raised in the chapter on Al Di and the letters, and at the moment I'm inclined to leave the discussion where it is.

This is one of the unexpected dynamics in writing a book on Norjak - so many issues are intertwined that writing a coherent narrative is difficult. Take the DNA - we have letters, stamps, cigarettes, Reno, lost evidence, malfeasance at the NCL, partials, the tie that no one remembers, multiple male donors, chain of custody issues, Petey, Nepal, Whitehurst, Ckret, KING 5, epithelial cells. Lots of hoops to jump through.