Author Topic: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?  (Read 42509 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #150 on: December 07, 2015, 04:32:02 PM »
The confusion appears to be the clip....it's the clip that's on the tie where the DNA was taken...correct? not the tie clip.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #151 on: December 07, 2015, 04:38:06 PM »
Farf, made the post Sailshaw responded to...

Quote
What was I thinking? Of course the reserve lines were handled by hundreds of people over the years and the geography of the cut locations and gripping force would be the same as any other part of the reserve system.

But the tie, that was only handled by one person because clip on neckties are typically attached with salad tongs which have been sealed in plastic bags removed from an autoclave after being bathed in iodine. If only I had considered this simple fact since DNA was extracted from the tie which was never handled by anyone other than the owner. Yep, sales people, warehousemen, seamstresses, browsing customers, customers returning merchandise and cashiers would have never touched that tie and that is assuming it wasn’t purchased from a thrift store after being savagely worn by a well dressed jackhammer operator. This is yet another example of why my thirst for logic remains unquenched while others are perpetually drunk on the stuff.
 

Offline 377

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Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #152 on: December 07, 2015, 04:39:37 PM »
Sure miss Farf, he was sharp as hell and that DRY humor...

Hope he is OK.

377
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #153 on: December 07, 2015, 04:41:13 PM »
DNA and the FBI

I just got an email from Ayn, clearly stating the FBI's new policy of saying Nuttin' 'bout Nuttin'. It appears we are on our own...


12. 7. 15:
Hi, Bruce—
 
I’m sorry to disappoint you, yet again, but it would not be appropriate at this time for me to provide details about the investigation. As you are aware, there was a time when the FBI’s Seattle Division answered media questions and proactively sought coverage. At that time, the FBI thought it might be beneficial to the investigation to share information publicly. The FBI’s media policy prohibits discussing ongoing investigations unless a release is specifically thought to have potential benefit to the investigation. Following further investigative efforts, the FBI in the fall of 2011 determined that media coverage of the case was more detrimental than helpful. We’ve found that media coverage generates considerable new interest, which is not proportional to where we are in allocating resources to this investigation.
 
I understand your continued interest in our investigation and apologize that I will not be able to share additional information to answer your questions.
 
Ayn
 
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #154 on: December 07, 2015, 04:42:56 PM »
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The confusion appears to be the clip....it's the clip that's on the tie where the DNA was taken...correct? not the tie clip.

That is my understanding. The clip. Also called the clasp.

NOT the tie pin.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #155 on: December 07, 2015, 05:02:45 PM »
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The confusion appears to be the clip....it's the clip that's on the tie where the DNA was taken...correct? not the tie clip.

That is my understanding. The clip. Also called the clasp.

NOT the tie pin.



To add more confusion......the clip in the evidence room is indeed a tie clip, not a pin. at one point the tie did have a tie pin. holes are visible on the tie where they were once used.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2015, 05:50:25 PM by Shutter »
 

georger

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Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #156 on: December 07, 2015, 06:01:24 PM »
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Yup. Larry told me that his source for DNA was epithelial cells found on the clip/clasp of the tie. 2008 phone conversation. I probably posted that news on the DZ, circa 2008. It is certainly at the Mountain News in early 2011, and in my book.

I didn't know there was any controversy on this, or any thought that DNA could come from the tie itself. I suppose the tie could NOW be tested for "touch DNA" off the cloth, but that is a recent development. But Larry specifically talks in the DZ posts how DNA can not be retrieved from most cloths, circa 2007-2009. I just read it in the Ckret posts linked to, above.

Well something is wrong. Ckret NEVER posted about dna from the tip clasp - anywhere. The only source is your supposed conversation with Ckret in 2008. Odd he would tell you this but leave everyone else out?

You also glibly talk about dna coming from tie and tie clasp - which is it? Make up your mind because it matters.

The next problem is touch dna vs epithelial dna! There IS a difference. Since you dont know shit about dna or anything genetic I dont blame you for not knowing. Your lack of knowledge in this area is very apparent to anyone who is versed in this topic. Now you are also alleging dna from the butts ... which would be nucleated dna, yet one more type! It's laughable, Smith. Ckret has said all along "partial profile". So, which is your guess as to which type of dna would yield a 'partial', and the most likely source ... from where on a tie? Hmmm. I guess there is more to this than you thought ... or know.

Lastly, epithelial cells got mixed into this. Blevins and a claimed FBI email and a Porteous conversation with the FBI are the sources of that, Blevins says. Blevins is the only source for 'epithelial dna'! Larry, from a review of his posts, never mentioned 'epithelial' cells. The first person to mention that was Blevins clear back in 2010 just after he arrived. He said his source was Porteous who had talked to the FBI. Several years later Blevins amended that saying he had just received an email from the FBI which specified 'epithelial cells OFF THE TIE'. Blevins never said tie clasp at all including from his email from the FBI or from Porteous who had talked to the FBI earlier.

So Smith you are the sole source on dna being collected from the tie clasp vs tie itself. You say your source was a phone call from Ckret. This is all very strange since Ckret never shared this with the rest of the world.

And, until we get better info, you can forget about the FBI's profile coming from cigarette butts. Butts would yield nucleated dna. Larry and every other FBI source says it's a "partial profile". That can only com from non-nucleated fragmentary strands of deoxyribonucleic acid! And that can only come from predictable sources like: epithelial cells off a keratinised base of cells. Touch dna involves a different type of cells which are usually referred to as dermal or ectodermal cells vs. epithelial in forensic parlance.   
     
 
« Last Edit: December 07, 2015, 06:12:33 PM by georger »
 

georger

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Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #157 on: December 07, 2015, 06:02:14 PM »
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The confusion appears to be the clip....it's the clip that's on the tie where the DNA was taken...correct? not the tie clip.

That is my understanding. The clip. Also called the clasp.

NOT the tie pin.



To add more confusion......the clip in the evidence room is indeed a tie clip, not a pin. at one point the tie did have a tie pin. holes are visible on the tie where they were once used.

pins, clasps, holes .... its irrelevant to the dna issue at hand.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #158 on: December 07, 2015, 06:07:25 PM »
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The confusion appears to be the clip....it's the clip that's on the tie where the DNA was taken...correct? not the tie clip.

That is my understanding. The clip. Also called the clasp.

NOT the tie pin.



To add more confusion......the clip in the evidence room is indeed a tie clip, not a pin. at one point the tie did have a tie pin. holes are visible on the tie where they were once used.

pins, clasps, holes .... its irrelevant to the dna issue at hand.



I posted it it to clarify...
 

georger

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Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #159 on: December 07, 2015, 06:26:10 PM »
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The confusion appears to be the clip....it's the clip that's on the tie where the DNA was taken...correct? not the tie clip.

That is my understanding. The clip. Also called the clasp.

NOT the tie pin.



To add more confusion......the clip in the evidence room is indeed a tie clip, not a pin. at one point the tie did have a tie pin. holes are visible on the tie where they were once used.

pins, clasps, holes .... its irrelevant to the dna issue at hand.



I posted it it to clarify...

The surprise to me was when Blevins came out of the woodwork (twice) and quoted FBI sources as saying 'epithelial cells'! That indicated to me right there that indeed Blevins or somebody had been talking to the FBI, and that surprised me. This may be Blevins best sole contribution to this whole matter. I said little at the time - just sat back and watched and listened but from a technical point of view Blevins made a real contribution IF his source was the FBI. We already had 'partial' from Larry. Then we get 'epithelial' from Blevins. The two connect nicely, technically.

The FBI could have a full dna profile from nucleated dna retrieved off the butts, in addition its partial it says it has. Until we get a solid source for butts having been tested, partial is all we have and from that we can estimated which that profile consists of, from probabilities involved alone. But these are technical issues so best not to speculate too far until solid info like Blevins provided happens. Epithelial and Partial fit together, technically. Touch dna, not so much. These may be cells off Cooper's neck and throat area ... keratinised cells which only contain fragmentary dna which can lead only to a partial AFTER multiple tests, which is what I was told happened. Multiple tests. Multiple kits used. Partial estimated result with a known level of confidence. That again is what Larry said: can rule people OUT but not IN.

more later.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2015, 06:31:11 PM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #160 on: December 07, 2015, 06:38:50 PM »
I always thought Bobby got the information on epithelial cells from me. I've been an "eppie" guy since Day One! (Circa 2008 on the DZ. Mountain News in 2011.)

As for tie clasps, I suppose, technically, the tie has two clasps. One is the little hook that "clasps" the tie around the neck. The other clasp is the decorative piece that clamps the tie to the shirt so it doesn't flap in the breeze. Again, my understanding is that Dan Cooper wore a tie that clasped around his neck, and was also able to be clasped/clipped onto his shirt with an attachment that seemed to remain with the tie when it was left on 18-E.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #161 on: December 07, 2015, 06:42:12 PM »
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So Smith you are the sole source on dna being collected from the tie clasp vs tie itself. You say your source was a phone call from Ckret. This is all very strange since Ckret never shared this with the rest of the world.



It appears that I am just a Super-Dooper Investigative Reporter! Wow. I've been sitting on a SCOOP for seven years and didn't know it!

Thanks, Georger, for helping me realize how smart I truly am...
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #162 on: December 07, 2015, 08:30:25 PM »
Quote
pins, clasps, holes .... its irrelevant to the dna issue at hand.


It was relevant to me. I seen what was written on the post above when I made the comment, and was part of the conversation related to the DNA on the tie/clasp/clip/hook etc. etc. !!!! >:(
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #163 on: December 07, 2015, 08:37:15 PM »
KIRO vs KING

Yup. Confusion.

Spoke at length with "Linda" at KING. She's been around a while - 1992-something. Knows the case. Knows her archives, too. Doesn't remember any broadcast about Cooper and cigarette butts. Remembers Chris Ingalls's initial broadcast in 2003 about DNA. Source of DNA not disclosed, however.

But a new FBI agent was identified. SA Charles Mindigo. He was quoted at length. He was not a PIO, apparently. Never heard of him before.

I also spoke with Sharon at KING. Sharon was not as golden-an-oldie as Linda, but she was very diligent. Spoke with her colleagues at length. Their archives are not as extensive as KING. KIRO only went to 2004 with extra searching. Normal search only goes to 2008. They found nothing on cigarette butts and DB Cooper. Sharon knows the case fairly well, (for a millennial). Remembers Marla!

I've discussed this broadcast business with Ron and Pat at length over the years. They are adamant about seeing a cigarette butt broadcast in 2001-2002.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2015, 08:37:50 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

georger

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Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #164 on: December 07, 2015, 11:26:34 PM »
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I always thought Bobby got the information on epithelial cells from me. I've been an "eppie" guy since Day One! (Circa 2008 on the DZ. Mountain News in 2011.)

As for tie clasps, I suppose, technically, the tie has two clasps. One is the little hook that "clasps" the tie around the neck. The other clasp is the decorative piece that clamps the tie to the shirt so it doesn't flap in the breeze. Again, my understanding is that Dan Cooper wore a tie that clasped around his neck, and was also able to be clasped/clipped onto his shirt with an attachment that seemed to remain with the tie when it was left on 18-E.

Blevins had the earliest recorded post on DZ and broke the news at DZ about "epithelial" cells, in August of 2010 shortly after he arrived. He said his source was Porteous. He restated the matter in 2014 sourcing an email he himself had received from the FBI. Ckret had previously said in 2007 that the FBI had a "partial", under the CODIS-13 system. A partial in that context usually means at least a 7 loci positive result. Later several agents told me privately that 3+ runs had been required to obtain the partial they have. That tends to agree with the probabilities involved in testing degraded epithelial skin cells from the neck, for example.

Ckret's 2007 post on the tie was this:   
   Ckret

Dec 18, 2007, 8:31 AM
Post #744 of 1694 (3174 views)
Shortcut
          Re: [SafecrackingPLF] Interesting... [In reply to]
 
________________________________________
In reference to the tie, we only know Cooper was described as wearing a black tie with a clasp and a black tie with a clasp was found in the seat Cooper had been sitting in. In regards to the DNA, if it is Coopers tie (more likely his than not) then at least one of the donors would most likely be Cooper.

Having said that and given the facts surrounding the tie and DNA, DNA in this case could not 100% rule anyone out or in as being DB Cooper. Even if a subject matched as being one of the donors, that would not absolutely make him DB Cooper.