Author Topic: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?  (Read 36830 times)

Moriarty

  • Guest
Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2014, 03:34:33 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Larry told me epithelial cells from the fingers on the clasp

Are you guys talking about FBI stating a Cooper DNA "partial sample" or a "partial profile?"

It's my knowledge that the tie contains lots of people's DNA.
 

georger

  • Guest
Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2014, 03:35:28 AM »
Im going to make this post without much comment except to bolden the passages which I think are crucial, which may have future relevance.

Posted by RMBlevins:

"The basic story is like this: We're now presenting the absolute best information on KC we have, including the testimony of additional witnesses and their contact info. We're tossing in Lyle's DNA profile for comparison. Our hope is that ArcPoint will be able to talk the FBI into letting their staff see the partial profile they have from the tie DNA. They want to check Lyle's profile with the partial, to do their own comparison  It's a good control, I think. If the FBI says that Lyle's profile eliminates Kenny from tie ownership, and ArcPoint comes to the same result, would be more confident about that being the final result. Not that I don't trust the Seattle FBI, but ArcPoint has claimed they might be able to do a better comparison then the FBI would do at this stage. (With the FBI's non-budget for the Cooper case)

I told them good luck with the request. I don't know. The FBI allowed the Sleuths pretty good access to the evidence. All ArcPoint would want is a copy of the existing partial profile. Frankly, I'm hoping the FBI agrees to this. They have expressed an interest in seeing the final report on Kenny. It's possible I could work a deal with ArcPoint for us to present the report and Lyle's DNA profile to the Seattle FBI, and at the same time ask them if ArcPoint (not me, just them) could do their own comparison with the partial

Before you say anything, remember this isn't the DNA or the tie itself ArcPoint would ask to examine. Just a copy of the partial profile(s) they gleaned from the tie DNA. Might have to be some confidentiality between Arc and the Seattle FBI.  I also want to give the FBI a good head start on the report before releasing it to general media. I was kicking that back and forth for a while, but then I realized if I released to media, that media might actively seek out the witnesses BEFORE the FBI gets a chance to talk to them first. And that would defeat the whole purpose and probably scare some of them off. They've said they would talk to the FBI, but no one said anything about reporters.  Only the film company has seen the report so far, plus a couple of close friends I trust.   (There will be no leaks from the film company or the ENTITIES I mention!) None of those entities will contact the witnesses at this time. The film company just wants to review the allegations, the testimony, and read the book. I should know something by Christmas, I'm told...but the film rep told me they've been wanting to do Cooper for quite a while now and I think it looks good for us.

 (This post was edited by RobertMBlevins on Dec 17, 2014, 11:42 PM)
 

georger

  • Guest
Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #17 on: December 18, 2014, 03:38:54 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Larry told me epithelial cells from the fingers on the clasp

Are you guys talking about FBI stating a Cooper DNA "partial sample" or a "partial profile?"

It's my knowledge that the tie contains lots of people's DNA.

What would a "partial sample" vs. a "partial profile" be in this matter?

What is the distinction be between a sample vs. profile?

Where do you get your knowledge that the tie contains lots of people's DNA?  DNA in what form?

 

Moriarty

  • Guest
Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2014, 04:18:09 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Larry told me epithelial cells from the fingers on the clasp

Are you guys talking about FBI stating a Cooper DNA "partial sample" or a "partial profile?"

It's my knowledge that the tie contains lots of people's DNA.

What would a "partial sample" vs. a "partial profile" be in this matter?

What is the distinction be between a sample vs. profile?

Where do you get your knowledge that the tie contains lots of people's DNA?  DNA in what form?

A sample (actual blood, saliva, whatever) that is relatively small in size may produce a small range of DNA, (partial sample) even in what would sound like a large collection of pairs. A partial sample exposes itself to a bigger chance that the sample tested may be contaminated, or even decayed. This could lead to a "partial profile" and open itself to matches/identifiers that are common, I believe referred to as a coincidental match. It's argued all the time in courts and I believe someone stated in the Cooper case somehwere that DNA has a lesser probability to identify the individual but a greater use to eliminate an individual.
 

georger

  • Guest
Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2014, 01:38:03 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Larry told me epithelial cells from the fingers on the clasp

Are you guys talking about FBI stating a Cooper DNA "partial sample" or a "partial profile?"

It's my knowledge that the tie contains lots of people's DNA.

What would a "partial sample" vs. a "partial profile" be in this matter?

What is the distinction be between a sample vs. profile?

Where do you get your knowledge that the tie contains lots of people's DNA?  DNA in what form?

A sample (actual blood, saliva, whatever) that is relatively small in size may produce a small range of DNA, (partial sample) even in what would sound like a large collection of pairs. A partial sample exposes itself to a bigger chance that the sample tested may be contaminated, or even decayed. This could lead to a "partial profile" and open itself to matches/identifiers that are common, I believe referred to as a coincidental match. It's argued all the time in courts and I believe someone stated in the Cooper case somewhere that DNA has a lesser probability to identify the individual but a greater use to eliminate an individual.

Ok, I see what you are saying. Another way to put this is to say 2 cells vs. 2000 cells. Since degradation (viability) is an issue in cells, especially old poorly preserved cells, then sheer number of cells in a sample can translate into  partial profile when degradation is also a factor.

Sample size also relates to 'reliability' of a tests, since any result is a statistical issue.

I have not wanted to say this since we deal with so many cranks and critics here who are always looking for flaws and will jump at any chance to help build their case, but the fact is 'epithelial' skin cells are not exactly 'potent' carriers to begin with. Cell numbers and the viability of those cells in a sample would very much matter. But you test what you have when there is no other choice. Given those facts you can assume the FBI's result is the result of multiple tests, not just one,  at least three for reasons of statistical necessity. (And now that I have said that you can bet the cranks will leap to discount everything the FBI claims to have, in order to squeeze some Duane or Kenny through the eye on a needle.)

Viability of whatever cells are collected is very important.
 
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
« Last Edit: December 18, 2014, 01:38:52 PM by georger »
 

georger

  • Guest
Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #20 on: December 18, 2014, 02:25:37 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Im going to make this post without much comment except to bolden the passages which I think are crucial, which may have future relevance.

Posted by RMBlevins:

"The basic story is like this: We're now presenting the absolute best information on KC we have, including the testimony of additional witnesses and their contact info. We're tossing in Lyle's DNA profile for comparison. Our hope is that ArcPoint will be able to talk the FBI into letting their staff see the partial profile they have from the tie DNA. They want to check Lyle's profile with the partial, to do their own comparison  It's a good control, I think. If the FBI says that Lyle's profile eliminates Kenny from tie ownership, and ArcPoint comes to the same result, would be more confident about that being the final result. Not that I don't trust the Seattle FBI, but ArcPoint has claimed they might be able to do a better comparison then the FBI would do at this stage. (With the FBI's non-budget for the Cooper case)

I told them good luck with the request. I don't know. The FBI allowed the Sleuths pretty good access to the evidence. All ArcPoint would want is a copy of the existing partial profile. Frankly, I'm hoping the FBI agrees to this. They have expressed an interest in seeing the final report on Kenny. It's possible I could work a deal with ArcPoint for us to present the report and Lyle's DNA profile to the Seattle FBI, and at the same time ask them if ArcPoint (not me, just them) could do their own comparison with the partial

Before you say anything, remember this isn't the DNA or the tie itself ArcPoint would ask to examine. Just a copy of the partial profile(s) they gleaned from the tie DNA. Might have to be some confidentiality between Arc and the Seattle FBI.  I also want to give the FBI a good head start on the report before releasing it to general media. I was kicking that back and forth for a while, but then I realized if I released to media, that media might actively seek out the witnesses BEFORE the FBI gets a chance to talk to them first. And that would defeat the whole purpose and probably scare some of them off. They've said they would talk to the FBI, but no one said anything about reporters.  Only the film company has seen the report so far, plus a couple of close friends I trust.   (There will be no leaks from the film company or the ENTITIES I mention!) None of those entities will contact the witnesses at this time. The film company just wants to review the allegations, the testimony, and read the book. I should know something by Christmas, I'm told...but the film rep told me they've been wanting to do Cooper for quite a while now and I think it looks good for us.

 (This post was edited by RobertMBlevins on Dec 17, 2014, 11:42 PM)

From Blevins' remarks above, it is obvious Blevins is trying to 'manipulate' everyone in the issue of genetic testing for his "clients" - Lyle etal. Arc Point has an idiot and a manipulator on their hands.

Who is leading and giving order to who, here!?

Do protocols mean anything to these clowns?

Newsflash for Blevins!:  The Arc Point franchise has protocols and licensing requirements it must follow ... or its whole business goes right out the window!

The FBI must follow well-established protocols!

Mr. Blevins cannot dictate terms. Or he can take his crap someplace else to have it tested. Wherever Blevins goes, nothing grows. Blevins is going to have everyone in trouble and humiliated, before this latest machination of his is over...
 :)   
« Last Edit: December 18, 2014, 02:38:52 PM by georger »
 

Moriarty

  • Guest
Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2014, 11:41:20 PM »
I don't know who this person is but from the short end of it this person better make the film, rush to the media with their claims on the day they open the film, otherwise they won't make the money and fame they seek. What's the date today? Dec.18, 2014. Mark it here predicting the only option they will have will be to attack the procedures, test handling, chain of custody, etc. when they dispute the results. Even if they plant their cash cow's DNA on Cooper's tie, how would that prove he is Dan Cooper? No one is going to solve this case from a suspect first. The second anyone presents a person as the origin of their theory, it should be suspect to question. All someone has to do is work hard on one aspect, get it and eventually the other dominoes will fall.
 

Offline nmiwrecks

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 394
  • Thanked: 3 times
    • MichiganMysteries.com
Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #22 on: December 18, 2014, 11:52:07 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
No one is going to solve this case from a suspect first. The second anyone presents a person as the origin of their theory, it should be suspect to question. All someone has to do is work hard on one aspect, get it and eventually the other dominoes will fall.
Wow, pretty solid investigation and mystery solving skills.  I can tell this website and the other one are filled with talented investigators.   Has anyone posting on these sites ever solved a mystery?  Anybody crack a cold case and see it closed? 
"If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got." - Henry Ford
 

georger

  • Guest
Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2014, 11:54:29 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I don't know who this person is but from the short end of it this person better make the film, rush to the media with their claims on the day they open the film, otherwise they won't make the money and fame they seek. What's the date today? Dec.18, 2014. Mark it here predicting the only option they will have will be to attack the procedures, test handling, chain of custody, etc. when they dispute the results. Even if they plant their cash cow's DNA on Cooper's tie, how would that prove he is Dan Cooper? No one is going to solve this case from a suspect first. The second anyone presents a person as the origin of their theory, it should be suspect to question. All someone has to do is work hard on one aspect, get it and eventually the other dominoes will fall.

I tend to agree with this approach. The road begins with a single step.
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6613
  • Thanked: 498 times
    • Project 305
Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2014, 05:16:49 PM »
Quote
No one is going to solve this case from a suspect first.

I disagree with this quote. several things to keep in mind. If Cooper did live, then it possibly could lead someone to the crime. not circumstantial evidence, something that would prove he was Cooper. I would like to believe even if he was a loner that he saved something linking him to the crime that would be found if he died. 

We now have two suspects from the missing persons avenue. I don't think this area has been checked over good enough to dismiss a missing persons possibility. Cooper doesn't have to be from the USA.

Quote
I can tell this website and the other one are filled with talented investigators.. Anybody crack a cold case and see it closed?

I don't believe many here are claiming to be "investigators" vs being researchers. I know I don't claim to be an investigator, and someone looking into a suspect isn't really one either IMO. armchair detective, perhaps a few. I believe some are so wrapped up in the case they fail to see evidence pointing against a suspect. 

I would credit Bruce Smith as a News/Media Investigator. he talks with key people in the investigation where some don't. he asks key questions. some people don't like his approach, but someone has to do it in order to get answers. I don't always agree with some of his conclusions, but he goes above and beyond more than others. 

In all the years DZ has been around I don't know if anyone has solved a cold case before. I see a lot of personality conflicts while researching this case, people butt heads constantly. I believe some have actually helped the case. Agent Carr was on DZ for some time, and learned as well. IQ's are tested all the time here, and "over there"

I believe NMIWrecks is a special Deputy falling into a different category explained above.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3089
  • Thanked: 127 times
    • The Mountain News
Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2014, 05:40:29 PM »
With all due respect to Special Deputy Richardson, what we are doing here is a different model of investigation than what LE does, such as "cracking cold case."

We are an "open-sourced" sleuthing team. We don't have the resources of LE, but we have each other, and some of use are very cool, like Snowmman, who is downright cold.

I got Tina's number from hints dropped by Jo, Cousin Arlene and the Gresham link from Galen, Lee Dormuth from Smokin'99, Bill Mitchell from EVicki. Snow was critical in finding Ted and Petey, which led to contact with Sail. And 377 paid for the rental car and gas so I could hunt for the elusive eagle-eyed one.
 

Offline EVickiW

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 283
  • Thanked: 25 times
    • NamUs:  (National Missing and Unidentified Persons System) Missing since September 1971 - Melvin Wilson
Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2014, 07:42:56 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
With all due respect to Special Deputy Richardson, what we are doing here is a different model of investigation than what LE does, such as "cracking cold case."

We are an "open-sourced" sleuthing team. We don't have the resources of LE, but we have each other, and some of use are very cool, like Snowmman, who is downright cold.

I got Tina's number from hints dropped by Jo, Cousin Arlene and the Gresham link from Galen, Lee Dormuth from Smokin'99, Bill Mitchell from EVicki. Snow was critical in finding Ted and Petey, which led to contact with Sail. And 377 paid for the rental car and gas so I could hunt for the elusive eagle-eyed one.

Just so Jo does not send me any more evil emails, I would like to state that I gave Bruce's contact information to Mitchell and Bill Mitchell contacted Bruce of his own volition. I would also like to state that I did not receive Mitchell's contact information as a result of Jo Weber contacting Mitchell on my behalf: which she so vehemently states on the Dropzone and in personal attack emails I have received from her.
You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3089
  • Thanked: 127 times
    • The Mountain News
Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #27 on: December 19, 2014, 07:58:56 PM »
EVicki is correct.

I apologize if my statement gave a misleading impression of how Bill Mitchell and I came to speak with one another.
 

georger

  • Guest
Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #28 on: December 20, 2014, 01:40:08 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
EVicki is correct.

I apologize if my statement gave a misleading impression of how Bill Mitchell and I came to speak with one another.

Doesnt this belong in another thread?
 

Moriarty

  • Guest
Re: The DNA/The FBI/DB Cooper...Whats The deal?
« Reply #29 on: December 24, 2014, 12:28:11 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Quote
No one is going to solve this case from a suspect first.

I disagree with this quote. several things to keep in mind. If Cooper did live, then it possibly could lead someone to the crime. not circumstantial evidence, something that would prove he was Cooper. I would like to believe even if he was a loner that he saved something linking him to the crime that would be found if he died. 

We now have two suspects from the missing persons avenue. I don't think this area has been checked over good enough to dismiss a missing persons possibility. Cooper doesn't have to be from the USA.

Quote
I can tell this website and the other one are filled with talented investigators.. Anybody crack a cold case and see it closed?

I don't believe many here are claiming to be "investigators" vs being researchers. I know I don't claim to be an investigator, and someone looking into a suspect isn't really one either IMO. armchair detective, perhaps a few. I believe some are so wrapped up in the case they fail to see evidence pointing against a suspect. 

I would credit Bruce Smith as a News/Media Investigator. he talks with key people in the investigation where some don't. he asks key questions. some people don't like his approach, but someone has to do it in order to get answers. I don't always agree with some of his conclusions, but he goes above and beyond more than others. 

In all the years DZ has been around I don't know if anyone has solved a cold case before. I see a lot of personality conflicts while researching this case, people butt heads constantly. I believe some have actually helped the case. Agent Carr was on DZ for some time, and learned as well. IQ's are tested all the time here, and "over there"

I believe NMIWrecks is a special Deputy falling into a different category explained above.

Keep in mind no one has come forth and identified Cooper. Why? He was hardly disguised.

There is always the possibility that Cooper never wanted to be identified and keeping any momento of the crime could'v fallen into someone's hands. If Cooper survived the jump. maybe he didn't want to have anything to do with the crime anymore.

--> There is multiple male DNA on the tie. Multiple, like a lot. Assume the tie was used by many.