Author Topic: Suspects And Confessions  (Read 459001 times)

Offline Robert99

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4275 on: December 07, 2019, 04:06:24 PM »
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... and, when the crew says 'they could see the lights of Portland-Vancouver coming up', Im willing to bet that is a true and accurate statement of the seeing conditions also vs. what R99 says every time. Some people have a habit of framing everything in absolutes that favor their position. 

EU's positions are equally extreme - absolute. He wants to freeze all natural motions of the Columbia in order to claim 'the money could only have come from the air, dropped on Tina Bar' ... or from the Mole Men who live underneath Tina Bar.  EU wont even allow that the Columbia River moves! :)

This is just more silly nonsense from Georger.  Anyone interested in knowing what the flight crew could see or not see from 10,000 feet should take a look at the 8:00 PM weather sequence report for Portland International Airport.  Shutter has this report on this site.

Georger, here is some basic information for you.  Water runs downhill.  If Albert Einstein didn't say that then I did.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4276 on: December 07, 2019, 05:29:30 PM »
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... and, when the crew says 'they could see the lights of Portland-Vancouver coming up', Im willing to bet that is a true and accurate statement of the seeing conditions also vs. what R99 says every time. Some people have a habit of framing everything in absolutes that favor their position. 

EU's positions are equally extreme - absolute. He wants to freeze all natural motions of the Columbia in order to claim 'the money could only have come from the air, dropped on Tina Bar' ... or from the Mole Men who live underneath Tina Bar.  EU wont even allow that the Columbia River moves! :)

This is just more silly nonsense from Georger.  Anyone interested in knowing what the flight crew could see or not see from 10,000 feet should take a look at the 8:00 PM weather sequence report for Portland International Airport.  Shutter has this report on this site.

Georger, here is some basic information for you.  Water runs downhill.  If Albert Einstein didn't say that then I did.

Yes it is silly - more riddles fromR99.

"Anyone interested in knowing what the flight crew could see or not see from 10,000 feet should take a look at the 8:00 PM weather sequence report" - Roberts riddle no.1

"Water runs downhill.  If Albert Einstein didn't say that then I did." - Robert's riddle no.2

Own your own words for a change. You've been talking in riddles for ten years. So R99... are these absolute riddles or just realtive riddles? Water runs downhill.  There is no word 'downhill'. There are words down hill and down·hill, so your riddles continue. And riddles are as riddles do!  :rofl:

Are your riddles doing for you what you want them to do? The psychology of riddles and what riddlers are doing, on social forums! Riddles are as riddles "do".  :congrats:

PS* Water runs downhill. Until there is a tide. Didnt the Fazios claim the money "came up with the last tide".

LSU 14 Georgia 3. Is forum posting a sport using riddles?  Any device that will undo or negate or stall ordinary witness testimony works ... on Cooper forums. Always escalate to the next highest level of authority available .. like R99, Einstein, or Gohd or "water runs downhill" even though the word doesnt even exist! Works every time! :nono:
« Last Edit: December 07, 2019, 05:47:47 PM by georger »
 

Offline fcastle866

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4277 on: December 09, 2019, 09:48:02 AM »
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It strikes me that people tend to fall into one of two DB Cooper Camps.

1) The guy was exceptionally sophisticated...a black ops type...who beat the system to get back at the government for some reason.

2) The guy was an idiot who just got lucky...or perhaps no-pulled and therefore unlucky.

As for me, I tend to think he was clever, bold, and desperate...not a genius...and that the primary reason he got away was because he happened to start-off one or two steps ahead of the authorities. I think it's as simple as that.

Moreover, it seems very likely that if he no-pulled something would have been discovered. Or, at least some mortgage, car or utility payments would have started to go unpaid and would have eventually tipped off the authorities.

I agree with this line of thought. Robert, I’ll respond with some speculation on how he may have known where he was in the air. Later when I am back to a laptop and not an iPhone. I think he got very lucky many times, and if he knew where he was in the air, it was due to a combination of luck and skill.

Okay.  But please don't speculate along the lines of Jo Weber's "navigational underwear" or the more recent claims of the capabilities of a Japanese wrist watch.

Robert: I'm just getting a chance to follow up on our discussion about whether Cooper knew where he was in the air.  EU basically summed it up in his comment about Cooper---

"As for me, I tend to think he was clever, bold, and desperate...not a genius...and that the primary reason he got away was because he happened to start-off one or two steps ahead of the authorities. I think it's as simple as that."

I picture Cooper as being smart, but not an off the charts IQ guy, but not dumb either.  Maybe a guy who was smarter than his bosses, but for some reason could not translate that into moving up the chain of command.  So, with that said, I believe Cooper may have thought he could outsmart everyone else on Flight 305 and the FBI, and in some cases he did, but to EU's point about starting off two steps ahead, I think Cooper was just very lucky.  He was prepared, but not Special Ops prepared, and then things started going his way.  The whole deal about him getting giddy when he actually got the money makes me think he was saying in his head "Wow, I never thought I'd get this far", I also think he may have had a plan after he got arrested.  A number of hijackers did not go to prison for life.  We don't know what he had in his background, or what his connections were.  My guess is he accepted that he might go to prison.

Rather than clog this up with one long post, I'll do a second on on why I think he could have known where he was in the air. 
 

Offline fcastle866

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4278 on: December 09, 2019, 10:02:46 AM »
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It strikes me that people tend to fall into one of two DB Cooper Camps.

1) The guy was exceptionally sophisticated...a black ops type...who beat the system to get back at the government for some reason.

2) The guy was an idiot who just got lucky...or perhaps no-pulled and therefore unlucky.

As for me, I tend to think he was clever, bold, and desperate...not a genius...and that the primary reason he got away was because he happened to start-off one or two steps ahead of the authorities. I think it's as simple as that.

Moreover, it seems very likely that if he no-pulled something would have been discovered. Or, at least some mortgage, car or utility payments would have started to go unpaid and would have eventually tipped off the authorities.

I agree with this line of thought. Robert, I’ll respond with some speculation on how he may have known where he was in the air. Later when I am back to a laptop and not an iPhone. I think he got very lucky many times, and if he knew where he was in the air, it was due to a combination of luck and skill.

Okay.  But please don't speculate along the lines of Jo Weber's "navigational underwear" or the more recent claims of the capabilities of a Japanese wrist watch.

Robert: I'm just getting a chance to follow up on our discussion about whether Cooper knew where he was in the air.  EU basically summed it up in his comment about Cooper---

"As for me, I tend to think he was clever, bold, and desperate...not a genius...and that the primary reason he got away was because he happened to start-off one or two steps ahead of the authorities. I think it's as simple as that."

I picture Cooper as being smart, but not an off the charts IQ guy, but not dumb either.  Maybe a guy who was smarter than his bosses, but for some reason could not translate that into moving up the chain of command.  So, with that said, I believe Cooper may have thought he could outsmart everyone else on Flight 305 and the FBI, and in some cases he did, but to EU's point about starting off two steps ahead, I think Cooper was just very lucky.  He was prepared, but not Special Ops prepared, and then things started going his way.  The whole deal about him getting giddy when he actually got the money makes me think he was saying in his head "Wow, I never thought I'd get this far", I also think he may have had a plan after he got arrested.  A number of hijackers did not go to prison for life.  We don't know what he had in his background, or what his connections were.  My guess is he accepted that he might go to prison.

Rather than clog this up with one long post, I'll do a second on on why I think he could have known where he was in the air.

Could Cooper have known where he was in the air?

SEATAC to Portland is around 135 miles.  Let's assume Cooper thinks he knows better than the average guy.  He thinks the plane will fly south, he's told the pilots to go with 15 degree flaps, so he has a general speed of the plane.  He's said to fly at 10,000 feet, maybe because it's a round number, or likely to keep the plane in a corridor.  He also probably knows the Victor Airways there.  Maybe he's flown the trip before (invest $25 for a few flights, knowing you might get $200k).  Why not 12,000 feet? Or 11,000? Oxygen is not needed until around 13,000 or so, I'm not sure when the masks deploy on the plane, so I think he could have flown a little higher.

So now he knows the direction, the speed, and the general location left/right, up/down.  He knows Tacoma (as many of you have said because he's from there), so all he has to do is make a few glances out the window to see that he's now past Tacoma, then there is Fort Lewis/McChord, where he would have seen lights from the base, or the lights at the airport, he has Interstate 5, Lake Merwin Dam, or dams on the Cowlitz River.

The impact of flying in that area is that it goes from city to country real fast, Tacoma turns into wide open country, so he goes from lights to no lights, and he knows the next set of major lights he will see will be Vancouver or Portland.

We know that he was possibly hanging on those stairs for close to 30 minutes, we also know that the 302's did not get into a lot of nitty gritty details (I'd still like to hear recordings from those interviews).  How do we know that he did not glance out the windows and how do we know what he was doing after Tina left him to go to the cockpit and before he jumped?

For those who were in Boy Scouts or the military (Marines-Army), you may have learned to count steps when walking through terrain, and would be able to keep track of where you were on a map.  For the aerial types, especially a Korean War era vet who was a pilot, navigator, air crew, etc, they would have known how to track location based on time and speed as well (think of all the World War II bombers that had navigators who could not always count on radio beacons).

I think Cooper thought he could tell where he was.  Whether he was successful in knowing where he was is unknown, but flying south from SEATAC, knowing the air speed, having a watch/stopwatch, having landmarks, knowing the general route, looking out the windows and the back stairs, all was enough for Cooper to have a good idea of where he was. 

Just my theory.  Again, he could have just been very lucky.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2019, 10:17:38 AM by fcastle866 »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4279 on: December 09, 2019, 12:59:03 PM »
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It strikes me that people tend to fall into one of two DB Cooper Camps.

1) The guy was exceptionally sophisticated...a black ops type...who beat the system to get back at the government for some reason.

2) The guy was an idiot who just got lucky...or perhaps no-pulled and therefore unlucky.

As for me, I tend to think he was clever, bold, and desperate...not a genius...and that the primary reason he got away was because he happened to start-off one or two steps ahead of the authorities. I think it's as simple as that.

Moreover, it seems very likely that if he no-pulled something would have been discovered. Or, at least some mortgage, car or utility payments would have started to go unpaid and would have eventually tipped off the authorities.

I agree with this line of thought. Robert, I’ll respond with some speculation on how he may have known where he was in the air. Later when I am back to a laptop and not an iPhone. I think he got very lucky many times, and if he knew where he was in the air, it was due to a combination of luck and skill.

Okay.  But please don't speculate along the lines of Jo Weber's "navigational underwear" or the more recent claims of the capabilities of a Japanese wrist watch.

Robert: I'm just getting a chance to follow up on our discussion about whether Cooper knew where he was in the air.  EU basically summed it up in his comment about Cooper---

"As for me, I tend to think he was clever, bold, and desperate...not a genius...and that the primary reason he got away was because he happened to start-off one or two steps ahead of the authorities. I think it's as simple as that."

I picture Cooper as being smart, but not an off the charts IQ guy, but not dumb either.  Maybe a guy who was smarter than his bosses, but for some reason could not translate that into moving up the chain of command.  So, with that said, I believe Cooper may have thought he could outsmart everyone else on Flight 305 and the FBI, and in some cases he did, but to EU's point about starting off two steps ahead, I think Cooper was just very lucky.  He was prepared, but not Special Ops prepared, and then things started going his way.  The whole deal about him getting giddy when he actually got the money makes me think he was saying in his head "Wow, I never thought I'd get this far", I also think he may have had a plan after he got arrested.  A number of hijackers did not go to prison for life.  We don't know what he had in his background, or what his connections were.  My guess is he accepted that he might go to prison.

Rather than clog this up with one long post, I'll do a second on on why I think he could have known where he was in the air.

Could Cooper have known where he was in the air?

SEATAC to Portland is around 135 miles.  Let's assume Cooper thinks he knows better than the average guy.  He thinks the plane will fly south, he's told the pilots to go with 15 degree flaps, so he has a general speed of the plane.  He's said to fly at 10,000 feet, maybe because it's a round number, or likely to keep the plane in a corridor.  He also probably knows the Victor Airways there.  Maybe he's flown the trip before (invest $25 for a few flights, knowing you might get $200k).  Why not 12,000 feet? Or 11,000? Oxygen is not needed until around 13,000 or so, I'm not sure when the masks deploy on the plane, so I think he could have flown a little higher.

So now he knows the direction, the speed, and the general location left/right, up/down.  He knows Tacoma (as many of you have said because he's from there), so all he has to do is make a few glances out the window to see that he's now past Tacoma, then there is Fort Lewis/McChord, where he would have seen lights from the base, or the lights at the airport, he has Interstate 5, Lake Merwin Dam, or dams on the Cowlitz River.

The impact of flying in that area is that it goes from city to country real fast, Tacoma turns into wide open country, so he goes from lights to no lights, and he knows the next set of major lights he will see will be Vancouver or Portland.

We know that he was possibly hanging on those stairs for close to 30 minutes, we also know that the 302's did not get into a lot of nitty gritty details (I'd still like to hear recordings from those interviews).  How do we know that he did not glance out the windows and how do we know what he was doing after Tina left him to go to the cockpit and before he jumped?

For those who were in Boy Scouts or the military (Marines-Army), you may have learned to count steps when walking through terrain, and would be able to keep track of where you were on a map.  For the aerial types, especially a Korean War era vet who was a pilot, navigator, air crew, etc, they would have known how to track location based on time and speed as well (think of all the World War II bombers that had navigators who could not always count on radio beacons).

I think Cooper thought he could tell where he was.  Whether he was successful in knowing where he was is unknown, but flying south from SEATAC, knowing the air speed, having a watch/stopwatch, having landmarks, knowing the general route, looking out the windows and the back stairs, all was enough for Cooper to have a good idea of where he was. 

Just my theory.  Again, he could have just been very lucky.

The AIRSPEED is not the controlling factor here.  The GROUND SPEED is what is important and Cooper did not have a means to determine it.  Further, the airspeed and ground speed were not constant.  They varied during the initial climb out of Seattle.  After levelling off at 10,000 feet and flying at a constant airspeed, the ground speed varied depending on the aircraft heading with respect to the winds aloft.

There was an overcast at 5000 feet and two or three additional cloud layers below that.  It is highly unlikely that Cooper could see any land marks on the ground under those weather and night time conditions.  For large cities, Cooper may have been able to see the "glow" from the city lights but he would not be able to determine any land marks.

Cooper did not specify any route from Seattle to Portland or Reno.  There were, and still are, two different Victor airways between Seattle and Portland and Cooper did not have any means to determine which one the airliner took. 

I'll try to redo the flight path numbers in the next few days using the latest winds aloft information from Tom Kaye.  We'll discuss this matter further after that.   
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4280 on: December 09, 2019, 02:03:59 PM »
The AIRSPEED is not the controlling factor here.  The GROUND SPEED is what is important and Cooper did not have a means to determine it.  Further, the airspeed and ground speed were not constant.  They varied during the initial climb out of Seattle.  After levelling off at 10,000 feet and flying at a constant airspeed, the ground speed varied depending on the aircraft heading with respect to the winds aloft.

There was an overcast at 5000 feet and two or three additional cloud layers below that.  It is highly unlikely that Cooper could see any land marks on the ground under those weather and night time conditions.  For large cities, Cooper may have been able to see the "glow" from the city lights but he would not be able to determine any land marks.

Cooper did not specify any route from Seattle to Portland or Reno.  There were, and still are, two different Victor airways between Seattle and Portland and Cooper did not have any means to determine which one the airliner took. 

I'll try to redo the flight path numbers in the next few days using the latest winds aloft information from Tom Kaye.  We'll discuss this matter further after that.   
[/quote]

For large cities, Cooper may have been able to see the "glow" from the city lights but he would not be able to determine any land marks.

What has caused your sudden revision? 

« Last Edit: December 09, 2019, 02:05:01 PM by georger »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4281 on: December 09, 2019, 02:23:55 PM »
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The AIRSPEED is not the controlling factor here.  The GROUND SPEED is what is important and Cooper did not have a means to determine it.  Further, the airspeed and ground speed were not constant.  They varied during the initial climb out of Seattle.  After levelling off at 10,000 feet and flying at a constant airspeed, the ground speed varied depending on the aircraft heading with respect to the winds aloft.

There was an overcast at 5000 feet and two or three additional cloud layers below that.  It is highly unlikely that Cooper could see any land marks on the ground under those weather and night time conditions.  For large cities, Cooper may have been able to see the "glow" from the city lights but he would not be able to determine any land marks.

Cooper did not specify any route from Seattle to Portland or Reno.  There were, and still are, two different Victor airways between Seattle and Portland and Cooper did not have any means to determine which one the airliner took. 

I'll try to redo the flight path numbers in the next few days using the latest winds aloft information from Tom Kaye.  We'll discuss this matter further after that.   

For large cities, Cooper may have been able to see the "glow" from the city lights but he would not be able to determine any land marks.

What has caused your sudden revision? 

[/quote]

More dis-information from Georger!  I have discussed the glow being visible, but not specific landmarks, here for the last 10 years. 
 

Offline georger

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4282 on: December 09, 2019, 02:39:13 PM »
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The AIRSPEED is not the controlling factor here.  The GROUND SPEED is what is important and Cooper did not have a means to determine it.  Further, the airspeed and ground speed were not constant.  They varied during the initial climb out of Seattle.  After levelling off at 10,000 feet and flying at a constant airspeed, the ground speed varied depending on the aircraft heading with respect to the winds aloft.

There was an overcast at 5000 feet and two or three additional cloud layers below that.  It is highly unlikely that Cooper could see any land marks on the ground under those weather and night time conditions.  For large cities, Cooper may have been able to see the "glow" from the city lights but he would not be able to determine any land marks.

Cooper did not specify any route from Seattle to Portland or Reno.  There were, and still are, two different Victor airways between Seattle and Portland and Cooper did not have any means to determine which one the airliner took. 

I'll try to redo the flight path numbers in the next few days using the latest winds aloft information from Tom Kaye.  We'll discuss this matter further after that.   

For large cities, Cooper may have been able to see the "glow" from the city lights but he would not be able to determine any land marks.

What has caused your sudden revision? 


More dis-information from Georger!  I have discussed the glow being visible, but not specific landmarks, here for the last 10 years.
[/quote]

You, have said nobody could see anything on the ground from the plane - NOTHING! And the same for any witness on the ground due to the multi layers of clouds in your model.

You, have virtually implied that the pilots are lying when they said: 'and we could see the lights of Portland/Vancouver coming up'.

So, are you now admitting or allowing the pilots were factually expressing what they experienced, clouds and your layers-of-clouds notwithstanding ?

You have been pressing these points on everyone going back to the old Dropzone. Why are you being to difficult and stubborn  about this?  You are the only person who has pressed your stance on this issue for years.   

Suddenly today out of the blue you say "For large cities, Cooper may have been able to see the "glow" from the city lights but he would not be able to determine any land marks."

What glow from "city lights" would they have been, if going south to Reno from Seattle? Portland/Vancouver? That is a long way from your previous claim that 'Cooper could not see ANYTHING from the plane. 

How is any of this "More dis-information from Georger!" They are your claims, not mine. Your words, not mine.

You keep playing your "anti Georger" card as if it is some kind of "go home free card"!  :rofl:
« Last Edit: December 09, 2019, 02:53:06 PM by georger »
 

Offline fcastle866

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4283 on: December 09, 2019, 03:01:05 PM »
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It strikes me that people tend to fall into one of two DB Cooper Camps.

1) The guy was exceptionally sophisticated...a black ops type...who beat the system to get back at the government for some reason.

2) The guy was an idiot who just got lucky...or perhaps no-pulled and therefore unlucky.

As for me, I tend to think he was clever, bold, and desperate...not a genius...and that the primary reason he got away was because he happened to start-off one or two steps ahead of the authorities. I think it's as simple as that.

Moreover, it seems very likely that if he no-pulled something would have been discovered. Or, at least some mortgage, car or utility payments would have started to go unpaid and would have eventually tipped off the authorities.

I agree with this line of thought. Robert, I’ll respond with some speculation on how he may have known where he was in the air. Later when I am back to a laptop and not an iPhone. I think he got very lucky many times, and if he knew where he was in the air, it was due to a combination of luck and skill.

Okay.  But please don't speculate along the lines of Jo Weber's "navigational underwear" or the more recent claims of the capabilities of a Japanese wrist watch.

Robert: I'm just getting a chance to follow up on our discussion about whether Cooper knew where he was in the air.  EU basically summed it up in his comment about Cooper---

"As for me, I tend to think he was clever, bold, and desperate...not a genius...and that the primary reason he got away was because he happened to start-off one or two steps ahead of the authorities. I think it's as simple as that."

I picture Cooper as being smart, but not an off the charts IQ guy, but not dumb either.  Maybe a guy who was smarter than his bosses, but for some reason could not translate that into moving up the chain of command.  So, with that said, I believe Cooper may have thought he could outsmart everyone else on Flight 305 and the FBI, and in some cases he did, but to EU's point about starting off two steps ahead, I think Cooper was just very lucky.  He was prepared, but not Special Ops prepared, and then things started going his way.  The whole deal about him getting giddy when he actually got the money makes me think he was saying in his head "Wow, I never thought I'd get this far", I also think he may have had a plan after he got arrested.  A number of hijackers did not go to prison for life.  We don't know what he had in his background, or what his connections were.  My guess is he accepted that he might go to prison.

Rather than clog this up with one long post, I'll do a second on on why I think he could have known where he was in the air.

Could Cooper have known where he was in the air?

SEATAC to Portland is around 135 miles.  Let's assume Cooper thinks he knows better than the average guy.  He thinks the plane will fly south, he's told the pilots to go with 15 degree flaps, so he has a general speed of the plane.  He's said to fly at 10,000 feet, maybe because it's a round number, or likely to keep the plane in a corridor.  He also probably knows the Victor Airways there.  Maybe he's flown the trip before (invest $25 for a few flights, knowing you might get $200k).  Why not 12,000 feet? Or 11,000? Oxygen is not needed until around 13,000 or so, I'm not sure when the masks deploy on the plane, so I think he could have flown a little higher.

So now he knows the direction, the speed, and the general location left/right, up/down.  He knows Tacoma (as many of you have said because he's from there), so all he has to do is make a few glances out the window to see that he's now past Tacoma, then there is Fort Lewis/McChord, where he would have seen lights from the base, or the lights at the airport, he has Interstate 5, Lake Merwin Dam, or dams on the Cowlitz River.

The impact of flying in that area is that it goes from city to country real fast, Tacoma turns into wide open country, so he goes from lights to no lights, and he knows the next set of major lights he will see will be Vancouver or Portland.

We know that he was possibly hanging on those stairs for close to 30 minutes, we also know that the 302's did not get into a lot of nitty gritty details (I'd still like to hear recordings from those interviews).  How do we know that he did not glance out the windows and how do we know what he was doing after Tina left him to go to the cockpit and before he jumped?

For those who were in Boy Scouts or the military (Marines-Army), you may have learned to count steps when walking through terrain, and would be able to keep track of where you were on a map.  For the aerial types, especially a Korean War era vet who was a pilot, navigator, air crew, etc, they would have known how to track location based on time and speed as well (think of all the World War II bombers that had navigators who could not always count on radio beacons).

I think Cooper thought he could tell where he was.  Whether he was successful in knowing where he was is unknown, but flying south from SEATAC, knowing the air speed, having a watch/stopwatch, having landmarks, knowing the general route, looking out the windows and the back stairs, all was enough for Cooper to have a good idea of where he was. 

Just my theory.  Again, he could have just been very lucky.

The AIRSPEED is not the controlling factor here.  The GROUND SPEED is what is important and Cooper did not have a means to determine it.  Further, the airspeed and ground speed were not constant.  They varied during the initial climb out of Seattle.  After levelling off at 10,000 feet and flying at a constant airspeed, the ground speed varied depending on the aircraft heading with respect to the winds aloft.

There was an overcast at 5000 feet and two or three additional cloud layers below that.  It is highly unlikely that Cooper could see any land marks on the ground under those weather and night time conditions.  For large cities, Cooper may have been able to see the "glow" from the city lights but he would not be able to determine any land marks.

Cooper did not specify any route from Seattle to Portland or Reno.  There were, and still are, two different Victor airways between Seattle and Portland and Cooper did not have any means to determine which one the airliner took. 

I'll try to redo the flight path numbers in the next few days using the latest winds aloft information from Tom Kaye.  We'll discuss this matter further after that.   

Robert-I'd buy into the airspeed/ground speed more if they were flying west to east or vice versa.  I still think it is possible that Cooper thought he could beat the system here.  The man took over a jetliner, took $200k, and jumped, so if he lived in that fantasy world, why not in a world where he could determine his location along a 135 mile route? 

As far as the airways go.  I only have handy the most recent maps, which may have changed since 1971, but they show V23 and V495 coming out of Seattle, and V23 turns into V287 at Malay.  I'm suggesting that he suspected the plane would fly south, and not fly east or west and make an end around, or worse, fly over the ocean, or avoid the cities due to the bomb.  All these variables would be hard to plan for, hence my belief that he got really lucky a few times in a row.

Sluggo's site had a good summary of the airways, but I have not been able to track it down on Wayback Machine or another site. If anyone has a link, please provide it.  I thought there was some talk about bringing it back up.  $1200 was a price I think I remember, but it really would cost quite a bit less, and I think some of us could chip in and get it back up.

There is a strong possibility that Cooper saw nothing except the glow that Anderson talked about. However, if things had gone the way he thought they might go, he might have been expecting to see more than he did.  The fog there in Portland is quite thick and seeing it in person gives one a different perspective on things.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4284 on: December 09, 2019, 03:03:05 PM »
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The AIRSPEED is not the controlling factor here.  The GROUND SPEED is what is important and Cooper did not have a means to determine it.  Further, the airspeed and ground speed were not constant.  They varied during the initial climb out of Seattle.  After levelling off at 10,000 feet and flying at a constant airspeed, the ground speed varied depending on the aircraft heading with respect to the winds aloft.

There was an overcast at 5000 feet and two or three additional cloud layers below that.  It is highly unlikely that Cooper could see any land marks on the ground under those weather and night time conditions.  For large cities, Cooper may have been able to see the "glow" from the city lights but he would not be able to determine any land marks.

Cooper did not specify any route from Seattle to Portland or Reno.  There were, and still are, two different Victor airways between Seattle and Portland and Cooper did not have any means to determine which one the airliner took. 

I'll try to redo the flight path numbers in the next few days using the latest winds aloft information from Tom Kaye.  We'll discuss this matter further after that.   

For large cities, Cooper may have been able to see the "glow" from the city lights but he would not be able to determine any land marks.

What has caused your sudden revision? 


More dis-information from Georger!  I have discussed the glow being visible, but not specific landmarks, here for the last 10 years.

You, have said nobody could see anything on the ground from the plane - NOTHING! And the same for any witness on the ground due to the multi layers of clouds in your model.

You, have virtually implied that the pilots are lying when they said: 'and we could see the lights of Portland/Vancouver coming up'.

So, are you now admitting or allowing the pilots were factually expressing what they experienced, clouds and your layers-of-clouds notwithstanding ?

You have been pressing these points on everyone going back to the old Dropzone. Why are you being to difficult and stubborn  about this?  You are the only person who has pressed your stance on this issue for years.   

Suddenly today out of the blue you say "For large cities, Cooper may have been able to see the "glow" from the city lights but he would not be able to determine any land marks."

What glow from "city lights" would they have been, if going south to Reno from Seattle? Portland/Vancouver? That is a long way from your previous claim that 'Cooper could not see ANYTHING from the plane. 

How is any of this "More dis-information from Georger!" They are your claims, not mine. Your words, not mine.

You keep playing your "anti Georger" card as if it is some kind of "go home free card"!  :rofl:
[/quote]

Still more baloney from Georger!

The "glow" is not on the ground!  It is in the clouds!

And water still runs downhill!  For Georger's benefit, "downhill" is a single word. 
 

Offline georger

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4285 on: December 09, 2019, 03:07:10 PM »
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The AIRSPEED is not the controlling factor here.  The GROUND SPEED is what is important and Cooper did not have a means to determine it.  Further, the airspeed and ground speed were not constant.  They varied during the initial climb out of Seattle.  After levelling off at 10,000 feet and flying at a constant airspeed, the ground speed varied depending on the aircraft heading with respect to the winds aloft.

There was an overcast at 5000 feet and two or three additional cloud layers below that.  It is highly unlikely that Cooper could see any land marks on the ground under those weather and night time conditions.  For large cities, Cooper may have been able to see the "glow" from the city lights but he would not be able to determine any land marks.

Cooper did not specify any route from Seattle to Portland or Reno.  There were, and still are, two different Victor airways between Seattle and Portland and Cooper did not have any means to determine which one the airliner took. 

I'll try to redo the flight path numbers in the next few days using the latest winds aloft information from Tom Kaye.  We'll discuss this matter further after that.   

For large cities, Cooper may have been able to see the "glow" from the city lights but he would not be able to determine any land marks.

What has caused your sudden revision? 


More dis-information from Georger!  I have discussed the glow being visible, but not specific landmarks, here for the last 10 years.

You, have said nobody could see anything on the ground from the plane - NOTHING! And the same for any witness on the ground due to the multi layers of clouds in your model.

You, have virtually implied that the pilots are lying when they said: 'and we could see the lights of Portland/Vancouver coming up'.

So, are you now admitting or allowing the pilots were factually expressing what they experienced, clouds and your layers-of-clouds notwithstanding ?

You have been pressing these points on everyone going back to the old Dropzone. Why are you being to difficult and stubborn  about this?  You are the only person who has pressed your stance on this issue for years.   

Suddenly today out of the blue you say "For large cities, Cooper may have been able to see the "glow" from the city lights but he would not be able to determine any land marks."

What glow from "city lights" would they have been, if going south to Reno from Seattle? Portland/Vancouver? That is a long way from your previous claim that 'Cooper could not see ANYTHING from the plane. 

How is any of this "More dis-information from Georger!" They are your claims, not mine. Your words, not mine.

You keep playing your "anti Georger" card as if it is some kind of "go home free card"!  :rofl:

Still more baloney from Georger!

The "glow" is not on the ground!  It is in the clouds!

And water still runs downhill!  For Georger's benefit, "downhill" is a single word.
[/quote]

reply>
THE GLOW IN THE CLOUDS IS ATTACHED TO CITIES ON THE GROIUND 0 DUHHHHHHHHH. That glow defines the identification-location of Portland/Vancouver.  .... "and we could see the lights from Portland/Vancouver coming up..."

Enough of your silly crap.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2019, 03:08:49 PM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4286 on: December 09, 2019, 03:13:04 PM »
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It strikes me that people tend to fall into one of two DB Cooper Camps.

1) The guy was exceptionally sophisticated...a black ops type...who beat the system to get back at the government for some reason.

2) The guy was an idiot who just got lucky...or perhaps no-pulled and therefore unlucky.

As for me, I tend to think he was clever, bold, and desperate...not a genius...and that the primary reason he got away was because he happened to start-off one or two steps ahead of the authorities. I think it's as simple as that.

Moreover, it seems very likely that if he no-pulled something would have been discovered. Or, at least some mortgage, car or utility payments would have started to go unpaid and would have eventually tipped off the authorities.

I agree with this line of thought. Robert, I’ll respond with some speculation on how he may have known where he was in the air. Later when I am back to a laptop and not an iPhone. I think he got very lucky many times, and if he knew where he was in the air, it was due to a combination of luck and skill.

Okay.  But please don't speculate along the lines of Jo Weber's "navigational underwear" or the more recent claims of the capabilities of a Japanese wrist watch.

Robert: I'm just getting a chance to follow up on our discussion about whether Cooper knew where he was in the air.  EU basically summed it up in his comment about Cooper---

"As for me, I tend to think he was clever, bold, and desperate...not a genius...and that the primary reason he got away was because he happened to start-off one or two steps ahead of the authorities. I think it's as simple as that."

I picture Cooper as being smart, but not an off the charts IQ guy, but not dumb either.  Maybe a guy who was smarter than his bosses, but for some reason could not translate that into moving up the chain of command.  So, with that said, I believe Cooper may have thought he could outsmart everyone else on Flight 305 and the FBI, and in some cases he did, but to EU's point about starting off two steps ahead, I think Cooper was just very lucky.  He was prepared, but not Special Ops prepared, and then things started going his way.  The whole deal about him getting giddy when he actually got the money makes me think he was saying in his head "Wow, I never thought I'd get this far", I also think he may have had a plan after he got arrested.  A number of hijackers did not go to prison for life.  We don't know what he had in his background, or what his connections were.  My guess is he accepted that he might go to prison.

Rather than clog this up with one long post, I'll do a second on on why I think he could have known where he was in the air.

Could Cooper have known where he was in the air?

SEATAC to Portland is around 135 miles.  Let's assume Cooper thinks he knows better than the average guy.  He thinks the plane will fly south, he's told the pilots to go with 15 degree flaps, so he has a general speed of the plane.  He's said to fly at 10,000 feet, maybe because it's a round number, or likely to keep the plane in a corridor.  He also probably knows the Victor Airways there.  Maybe he's flown the trip before (invest $25 for a few flights, knowing you might get $200k).  Why not 12,000 feet? Or 11,000? Oxygen is not needed until around 13,000 or so, I'm not sure when the masks deploy on the plane, so I think he could have flown a little higher.

So now he knows the direction, the speed, and the general location left/right, up/down.  He knows Tacoma (as many of you have said because he's from there), so all he has to do is make a few glances out the window to see that he's now past Tacoma, then there is Fort Lewis/McChord, where he would have seen lights from the base, or the lights at the airport, he has Interstate 5, Lake Merwin Dam, or dams on the Cowlitz River.

The impact of flying in that area is that it goes from city to country real fast, Tacoma turns into wide open country, so he goes from lights to no lights, and he knows the next set of major lights he will see will be Vancouver or Portland.

We know that he was possibly hanging on those stairs for close to 30 minutes, we also know that the 302's did not get into a lot of nitty gritty details (I'd still like to hear recordings from those interviews).  How do we know that he did not glance out the windows and how do we know what he was doing after Tina left him to go to the cockpit and before he jumped?

For those who were in Boy Scouts or the military (Marines-Army), you may have learned to count steps when walking through terrain, and would be able to keep track of where you were on a map.  For the aerial types, especially a Korean War era vet who was a pilot, navigator, air crew, etc, they would have known how to track location based on time and speed as well (think of all the World War II bombers that had navigators who could not always count on radio beacons).

I think Cooper thought he could tell where he was.  Whether he was successful in knowing where he was is unknown, but flying south from SEATAC, knowing the air speed, having a watch/stopwatch, having landmarks, knowing the general route, looking out the windows and the back stairs, all was enough for Cooper to have a good idea of where he was. 

Just my theory.  Again, he could have just been very lucky.

The AIRSPEED is not the controlling factor here.  The GROUND SPEED is what is important and Cooper did not have a means to determine it.  Further, the airspeed and ground speed were not constant.  They varied during the initial climb out of Seattle.  After levelling off at 10,000 feet and flying at a constant airspeed, the ground speed varied depending on the aircraft heading with respect to the winds aloft.

There was an overcast at 5000 feet and two or three additional cloud layers below that.  It is highly unlikely that Cooper could see any land marks on the ground under those weather and night time conditions.  For large cities, Cooper may have been able to see the "glow" from the city lights but he would not be able to determine any land marks.

Cooper did not specify any route from Seattle to Portland or Reno.  There were, and still are, two different Victor airways between Seattle and Portland and Cooper did not have any means to determine which one the airliner took. 

I'll try to redo the flight path numbers in the next few days using the latest winds aloft information from Tom Kaye.  We'll discuss this matter further after that.   

Robert-I'd buy into the airspeed/ground speed more if they were flying west to east or vice versa.  I still think it is possible that Cooper thought he could beat the system here.  The man took over a jetliner, took $200k, and jumped, so if he lived in that fantasy world, why not in a world where he could determine his location along a 135 mile route? 

As far as the airways go.  I only have handy the most recent maps, which may have changed since 1971, but they show V23 and V495 coming out of Seattle, and V23 turns into V287 at Malay.  I'm suggesting that he suspected the plane would fly south, and not fly east or west and make an end around, or worse, fly over the ocean, or avoid the cities due to the bomb.  All these variables would be hard to plan for, hence my belief that he got really lucky a few times in a row.

Sluggo's site had a good summary of the airways, but I have not been able to track it down on Wayback Machine or another site. If anyone has a link, please provide it.  I thought there was some talk about bringing it back up.  $1200 was a price I think I remember, but it really would cost quite a bit less, and I think some of us could chip in and get it back up.

There is a strong possibility that Cooper saw nothing except the glow that Anderson talked about. However, if things had gone the way he thought they might go, he might have been expecting to see more than he did.  The fog there in Portland is quite thick and seeing it in person gives one a different perspective on things.

Lots of ifs, maybees, what ifs ....  but the pilots said they could see the lights of large cities coming up. All in relation to the time of the oscillations, bump, and Cooper apparently jumping. The question is: how long did the oscillations continue? And where was the plane when the bump happened. Its simple.   

That issue has been discussed on two forums now for ten years! No progress has been made! Its amazing. It has required the patience of Job to put up with this nonsense . . .
« Last Edit: December 09, 2019, 03:19:32 PM by georger »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4287 on: December 09, 2019, 03:19:53 PM »
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It strikes me that people tend to fall into one of two DB Cooper Camps.

1) The guy was exceptionally sophisticated...a black ops type...who beat the system to get back at the government for some reason.

2) The guy was an idiot who just got lucky...or perhaps no-pulled and therefore unlucky.

As for me, I tend to think he was clever, bold, and desperate...not a genius...and that the primary reason he got away was because he happened to start-off one or two steps ahead of the authorities. I think it's as simple as that.

Moreover, it seems very likely that if he no-pulled something would have been discovered. Or, at least some mortgage, car or utility payments would have started to go unpaid and would have eventually tipped off the authorities.

I agree with this line of thought. Robert, I’ll respond with some speculation on how he may have known where he was in the air. Later when I am back to a laptop and not an iPhone. I think he got very lucky many times, and if he knew where he was in the air, it was due to a combination of luck and skill.

Okay.  But please don't speculate along the lines of Jo Weber's "navigational underwear" or the more recent claims of the capabilities of a Japanese wrist watch.

Robert: I'm just getting a chance to follow up on our discussion about whether Cooper knew where he was in the air.  EU basically summed it up in his comment about Cooper---

"As for me, I tend to think he was clever, bold, and desperate...not a genius...and that the primary reason he got away was because he happened to start-off one or two steps ahead of the authorities. I think it's as simple as that."

I picture Cooper as being smart, but not an off the charts IQ guy, but not dumb either.  Maybe a guy who was smarter than his bosses, but for some reason could not translate that into moving up the chain of command.  So, with that said, I believe Cooper may have thought he could outsmart everyone else on Flight 305 and the FBI, and in some cases he did, but to EU's point about starting off two steps ahead, I think Cooper was just very lucky.  He was prepared, but not Special Ops prepared, and then things started going his way.  The whole deal about him getting giddy when he actually got the money makes me think he was saying in his head "Wow, I never thought I'd get this far", I also think he may have had a plan after he got arrested.  A number of hijackers did not go to prison for life.  We don't know what he had in his background, or what his connections were.  My guess is he accepted that he might go to prison.

Rather than clog this up with one long post, I'll do a second on on why I think he could have known where he was in the air.

Could Cooper have known where he was in the air?

SEATAC to Portland is around 135 miles.  Let's assume Cooper thinks he knows better than the average guy.  He thinks the plane will fly south, he's told the pilots to go with 15 degree flaps, so he has a general speed of the plane.  He's said to fly at 10,000 feet, maybe because it's a round number, or likely to keep the plane in a corridor.  He also probably knows the Victor Airways there.  Maybe he's flown the trip before (invest $25 for a few flights, knowing you might get $200k).  Why not 12,000 feet? Or 11,000? Oxygen is not needed until around 13,000 or so, I'm not sure when the masks deploy on the plane, so I think he could have flown a little higher.

So now he knows the direction, the speed, and the general location left/right, up/down.  He knows Tacoma (as many of you have said because he's from there), so all he has to do is make a few glances out the window to see that he's now past Tacoma, then there is Fort Lewis/McChord, where he would have seen lights from the base, or the lights at the airport, he has Interstate 5, Lake Merwin Dam, or dams on the Cowlitz River.

The impact of flying in that area is that it goes from city to country real fast, Tacoma turns into wide open country, so he goes from lights to no lights, and he knows the next set of major lights he will see will be Vancouver or Portland.

We know that he was possibly hanging on those stairs for close to 30 minutes, we also know that the 302's did not get into a lot of nitty gritty details (I'd still like to hear recordings from those interviews).  How do we know that he did not glance out the windows and how do we know what he was doing after Tina left him to go to the cockpit and before he jumped?

For those who were in Boy Scouts or the military (Marines-Army), you may have learned to count steps when walking through terrain, and would be able to keep track of where you were on a map.  For the aerial types, especially a Korean War era vet who was a pilot, navigator, air crew, etc, they would have known how to track location based on time and speed as well (think of all the World War II bombers that had navigators who could not always count on radio beacons).

I think Cooper thought he could tell where he was.  Whether he was successful in knowing where he was is unknown, but flying south from SEATAC, knowing the air speed, having a watch/stopwatch, having landmarks, knowing the general route, looking out the windows and the back stairs, all was enough for Cooper to have a good idea of where he was. 

Just my theory.  Again, he could have just been very lucky.

The AIRSPEED is not the controlling factor here.  The GROUND SPEED is what is important and Cooper did not have a means to determine it.  Further, the airspeed and ground speed were not constant.  They varied during the initial climb out of Seattle.  After levelling off at 10,000 feet and flying at a constant airspeed, the ground speed varied depending on the aircraft heading with respect to the winds aloft.

There was an overcast at 5000 feet and two or three additional cloud layers below that.  It is highly unlikely that Cooper could see any land marks on the ground under those weather and night time conditions.  For large cities, Cooper may have been able to see the "glow" from the city lights but he would not be able to determine any land marks.

Cooper did not specify any route from Seattle to Portland or Reno.  There were, and still are, two different Victor airways between Seattle and Portland and Cooper did not have any means to determine which one the airliner took. 

I'll try to redo the flight path numbers in the next few days using the latest winds aloft information from Tom Kaye.  We'll discuss this matter further after that.   

Robert-I'd buy into the airspeed/ground speed more if they were flying west to east or vice versa.  I still think it is possible that Cooper thought he could beat the system here.  The man took over a jetliner, took $200k, and jumped, so if he lived in that fantasy world, why not in a world where he could determine his location along a 135 mile route? 

As far as the airways go.  I only have handy the most recent maps, which may have changed since 1971, but they show V23 and V495 coming out of Seattle, and V23 turns into V287 at Malay.  I'm suggesting that he suspected the plane would fly south, and not fly east or west and make an end around, or worse, fly over the ocean, or avoid the cities due to the bomb.  All these variables would be hard to plan for, hence my belief that he got really lucky a few times in a row.

Sluggo's site had a good summary of the airways, but I have not been able to track it down on Wayback Machine or another site. If anyone has a link, please provide it.  I thought there was some talk about bringing it back up.  $1200 was a price I think I remember, but it really would cost quite a bit less, and I think some of us could chip in and get it back up.

There is a strong possibility that Cooper saw nothing except the glow that Anderson talked about. However, if things had gone the way he thought they might go, he might have been expecting to see more than he did.  The fog there in Portland is quite thick and seeing it in person gives one a different perspective on things.

You bet Sluggo's site had a good summary (they are not summaries, but copies of the actual charts) of the airways!  I spent several hundred dollars getting those 1971 IFR Enroute Low Altitude charts from the National Archives and on to Sluggo.  The Washington State History Museum in Tacoma now has the original disks that I received and passed copies on to Sluggo.  You might check with Fred Poynter at WSHM if you have questions about them.

Until I post the updated flight path information in a few days, I am not going to respond to further question since it is just a waste of time.  However, I will correct mis-information from Georger during this time period.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4288 on: December 09, 2019, 03:26:22 PM »
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The AIRSPEED is not the controlling factor here.  The GROUND SPEED is what is important and Cooper did not have a means to determine it.  Further, the airspeed and ground speed were not constant.  They varied during the initial climb out of Seattle.  After levelling off at 10,000 feet and flying at a constant airspeed, the ground speed varied depending on the aircraft heading with respect to the winds aloft.

There was an overcast at 5000 feet and two or three additional cloud layers below that.  It is highly unlikely that Cooper could see any land marks on the ground under those weather and night time conditions.  For large cities, Cooper may have been able to see the "glow" from the city lights but he would not be able to determine any land marks.

Cooper did not specify any route from Seattle to Portland or Reno.  There were, and still are, two different Victor airways between Seattle and Portland and Cooper did not have any means to determine which one the airliner took. 

I'll try to redo the flight path numbers in the next few days using the latest winds aloft information from Tom Kaye.  We'll discuss this matter further after that.   

For large cities, Cooper may have been able to see the "glow" from the city lights but he would not be able to determine any land marks.

What has caused your sudden revision? 


More dis-information from Georger!  I have discussed the glow being visible, but not specific landmarks, here for the last 10 years.

You, have said nobody could see anything on the ground from the plane - NOTHING! And the same for any witness on the ground due to the multi layers of clouds in your model.

You, have virtually implied that the pilots are lying when they said: 'and we could see the lights of Portland/Vancouver coming up'.

So, are you now admitting or allowing the pilots were factually expressing what they experienced, clouds and your layers-of-clouds notwithstanding ?

You have been pressing these points on everyone going back to the old Dropzone. Why are you being to difficult and stubborn  about this?  You are the only person who has pressed your stance on this issue for years.   

Suddenly today out of the blue you say "For large cities, Cooper may have been able to see the "glow" from the city lights but he would not be able to determine any land marks."

What glow from "city lights" would they have been, if going south to Reno from Seattle? Portland/Vancouver? That is a long way from your previous claim that 'Cooper could not see ANYTHING from the plane. 

How is any of this "More dis-information from Georger!" They are your claims, not mine. Your words, not mine.

You keep playing your "anti Georger" card as if it is some kind of "go home free card"!  :rofl:

Still more baloney from Georger!

The "glow" is not on the ground!  It is in the clouds!

And water still runs downhill!  For Georger's benefit, "downhill" is a single word.

reply>
THE GLOW IN THE CLOUDS IS ATTACHED TO CITIES ON THE GROIUND 0 DUHHHHHHHHH. That glow defines the identification-location of Portland/Vancouver.  .... "and we could see the lights from Portland/Vancouver coming up..."

Enough of your silly crap.
[/quote]

The cities are attached to the ground and the atmosphere is also attached to the ground!  But the airliner crew couldn't see the ground.  And except for the clouds, they couldn't see the atmosphere either.  This is just physics 0000000000001.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4289 on: December 10, 2019, 04:55:41 PM »
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It strikes me that people tend to fall into one of two DB Cooper Camps.

1) The guy was exceptionally sophisticated...a black ops type...who beat the system to get back at the government for some reason.

2) The guy was an idiot who just got lucky...or perhaps no-pulled and therefore unlucky.

As for me, I tend to think he was clever, bold, and desperate...not a genius...and that the primary reason he got away was because he happened to start-off one or two steps ahead of the authorities. I think it's as simple as that.

Moreover, it seems very likely that if he no-pulled something would have been discovered. Or, at least some mortgage, car or utility payments would have started to go unpaid and would have eventually tipped off the authorities.

I agree with this line of thought. Robert, I’ll respond with some speculation on how he may have known where he was in the air. Later when I am back to a laptop and not an iPhone. I think he got very lucky many times, and if he knew where he was in the air, it was due to a combination of luck and skill.

Okay.  But please don't speculate along the lines of Jo Weber's "navigational underwear" or the more recent claims of the capabilities of a Japanese wrist watch.

Robert: I'm just getting a chance to follow up on our discussion about whether Cooper knew where he was in the air.  EU basically summed it up in his comment about Cooper---

"As for me, I tend to think he was clever, bold, and desperate...not a genius...and that the primary reason he got away was because he happened to start-off one or two steps ahead of the authorities. I think it's as simple as that."

I picture Cooper as being smart, but not an off the charts IQ guy, but not dumb either.  Maybe a guy who was smarter than his bosses, but for some reason could not translate that into moving up the chain of command.  So, with that said, I believe Cooper may have thought he could outsmart everyone else on Flight 305 and the FBI, and in some cases he did, but to EU's point about starting off two steps ahead, I think Cooper was just very lucky.  He was prepared, but not Special Ops prepared, and then things started going his way.  The whole deal about him getting giddy when he actually got the money makes me think he was saying in his head "Wow, I never thought I'd get this far", I also think he may have had a plan after he got arrested.  A number of hijackers did not go to prison for life.  We don't know what he had in his background, or what his connections were.  My guess is he accepted that he might go to prison.

Rather than clog this up with one long post, I'll do a second on on why I think he could have known where he was in the air.

Could Cooper have known where he was in the air?

SEATAC to Portland is around 135 miles.  Let's assume Cooper thinks he knows better than the average guy.  He thinks the plane will fly south, he's told the pilots to go with 15 degree flaps, so he has a general speed of the plane.  He's said to fly at 10,000 feet, maybe because it's a round number, or likely to keep the plane in a corridor.  He also probably knows the Victor Airways there.  Maybe he's flown the trip before (invest $25 for a few flights, knowing you might get $200k).  Why not 12,000 feet? Or 11,000? Oxygen is not needed until around 13,000 or so, I'm not sure when the masks deploy on the plane, so I think he could have flown a little higher.

So now he knows the direction, the speed, and the general location left/right, up/down.  He knows Tacoma (as many of you have said because he's from there), so all he has to do is make a few glances out the window to see that he's now past Tacoma, then there is Fort Lewis/McChord, where he would have seen lights from the base, or the lights at the airport, he has Interstate 5, Lake Merwin Dam, or dams on the Cowlitz River.

The impact of flying in that area is that it goes from city to country real fast, Tacoma turns into wide open country, so he goes from lights to no lights, and he knows the next set of major lights he will see will be Vancouver or Portland.

We know that he was possibly hanging on those stairs for close to 30 minutes, we also know that the 302's did not get into a lot of nitty gritty details (I'd still like to hear recordings from those interviews).  How do we know that he did not glance out the windows and how do we know what he was doing after Tina left him to go to the cockpit and before he jumped?

For those who were in Boy Scouts or the military (Marines-Army), you may have learned to count steps when walking through terrain, and would be able to keep track of where you were on a map.  For the aerial types, especially a Korean War era vet who was a pilot, navigator, air crew, etc, they would have known how to track location based on time and speed as well (think of all the World War II bombers that had navigators who could not always count on radio beacons).

I think Cooper thought he could tell where he was.  Whether he was successful in knowing where he was is unknown, but flying south from SEATAC, knowing the air speed, having a watch/stopwatch, having landmarks, knowing the general route, looking out the windows and the back stairs, all was enough for Cooper to have a good idea of where he was. 

Just my theory.  Again, he could have just been very lucky.

The AIRSPEED is not the controlling factor here.  The GROUND SPEED is what is important and Cooper did not have a means to determine it.  Further, the airspeed and ground speed were not constant.  They varied during the initial climb out of Seattle.  After levelling off at 10,000 feet and flying at a constant airspeed, the ground speed varied depending on the aircraft heading with respect to the winds aloft.

There was an overcast at 5000 feet and two or three additional cloud layers below that.  It is highly unlikely that Cooper could see any land marks on the ground under those weather and night time conditions.  For large cities, Cooper may have been able to see the "glow" from the city lights but he would not be able to determine any land marks.

Cooper did not specify any route from Seattle to Portland or Reno.  There were, and still are, two different Victor airways between Seattle and Portland and Cooper did not have any means to determine which one the airliner took. 

I'll try to redo the flight path numbers in the next few days using the latest winds aloft information from Tom Kaye.  We'll discuss this matter further after that.   

Robert-I'd buy into the airspeed/ground speed more if they were flying west to east or vice versa.  I still think it is possible that Cooper thought he could beat the system here.  The man took over a jetliner, took $200k, and jumped, so if he lived in that fantasy world, why not in a world where he could determine his location along a 135 mile route? 

As far as the airways go.  I only have handy the most recent maps, which may have changed since 1971, but they show V23 and V495 coming out of Seattle, and V23 turns into V287 at Malay.  I'm suggesting that he suspected the plane would fly south, and not fly east or west and make an end around, or worse, fly over the ocean, or avoid the cities due to the bomb.  All these variables would be hard to plan for, hence my belief that he got really lucky a few times in a row.

Sluggo's site had a good summary of the airways, but I have not been able to track it down on Wayback Machine or another site. If anyone has a link, please provide it.  I thought there was some talk about bringing it back up.  $1200 was a price I think I remember, but it really would cost quite a bit less, and I think some of us could chip in and get it back up.

There is a strong possibility that Cooper saw nothing except the glow that Anderson talked about. However, if things had gone the way he thought they might go, he might have been expecting to see more than he did.  The fog there in Portland is quite thick and seeing it in person gives one a different perspective on things.

Castle you say: There is a strong possibility that Cooper saw nothing except the glow that Anderson talked about.

What glow that Anderson talked about - whats the documentation for this? The interview that Anderson gave?
« Last Edit: December 10, 2019, 05:06:41 PM by georger »