Author Topic: Suspects And Confessions  (Read 321540 times)

Offline georger

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4065 on: December 12, 2018, 02:04:08 PM »
Everyone says this below is the INITIAL SKETCH - but I cant find any newspaper article that ever published this photo? Maybe its just me? Maybe its the Vortex? Tom doesnt even give a date for when this initial sketch was done by Las Vegas FO !

In fact all early news articles I can find use the second sketch?

Can anyone account for this? Tom says of the second sketch: "This pair of artist sketches (figure 2) was released by the FBI on November 30, 1971, six days following the hijacking."

So why is the initial sketch the "initial sketch" and where was it ever published and when? The initial sketch was presumably developed with witness Gregory - was it never published because others disagreed?  If the INITIAL sketch was done using Gregory how in blazes did Las Vegas have Gregory to interview when Gregory got off the plane at Seattle ??
« Last Edit: December 12, 2018, 02:21:11 PM by georger »
 

Offline 377

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4066 on: December 12, 2018, 02:17:06 PM »
Interesting question Georger.

They are soooo different.

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Offline EU

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    • DB  Cooper: The Definitive Investigation of Sheridan Peterson
Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4067 on: December 12, 2018, 02:19:39 PM »
 Not sure if it was published. I do recall reading in the FBI files that Mucklow and/or Schaffner said that the first sketch was "too good looking." Thus, the second, classic Cooper sketch was quickly released.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline georger

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4068 on: December 12, 2018, 02:26:06 PM »
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Not sure if it was published. I do recall reading in the FBI files that Mucklow and/or Schaffner said that the first sketch was "too good looking." Thus, the second, classic Cooper sketch was quickly released.

Who and where was sketch 2 A and B done?

How does Las Vegas use Gregory as its witness (sketch) when Gregory got off the plane hours earlier in Seattle ! ?

Why is Las Vegas doing sketches of Cooper? And on what date! ? 
« Last Edit: December 12, 2018, 02:28:56 PM by georger »
 

Offline 377

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4069 on: December 12, 2018, 02:35:24 PM »
What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas Georger. No point inquiring further.  ;)

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Offline Shutter

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4070 on: December 12, 2018, 05:05:04 PM »
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Not sure if it was published. I do recall reading in the FBI files that Mucklow and/or Schaffner said that the first sketch was "too good looking." Thus, the second, classic Cooper sketch was quickly released.

Who and where was sketch 2 A and B done?

How does Las Vegas use Gregory as its witness (sketch) when Gregory got off the plane hours earlier in Seattle ! ?

Why is Las Vegas doing sketches of Cooper? And on what date! ?


Perhaps this could shed some light?

.

 
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Offline georger

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4071 on: December 13, 2018, 01:20:19 AM »
Thanks Shutter for the interview with Rose.

Given that Gregory played some kind of (vital?) role for the FBI in identifying-describing Cooper,  do we still not know where Gregory sat on the plane!? Has this ever been resolved?

Last I knew Bruce Smith said this: "Neither Geoffrey nor the Gregory family member could say exactly where Robert Gregory sat on the plane, but GG stressed that Gregory was the owner of a paint shop and had a very fine eye for details and colors. However, my repeated attempts through the weekend were unsuccessful to verify where Mr. Gregory sat on the plane and how valid his descriptions were.

This is another disconnect. Guy who sat in some undefined seat becomes major figure in IDing Cooper. Looks at photos of suspect (from Eugene area) for FBI, etc etc .... but nobody knows where the guy sat!   In contrast we know Mitchell (the college kid) sat directly across the isle from Cooper, in the same row.

Gregory plays vital role for FBI and Geoff Gray but ........ they dont know where he sat on the plane!  :rofl:

 :bravo:
« Last Edit: December 13, 2018, 01:22:35 AM by georger »
 

Offline 377

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4072 on: December 13, 2018, 01:29:23 AM »
Georger wrote: “Gregory plays vital role for FBI and Geoff Gray but ........ they dont know where he sat on the plane!  :rofl:

If remote viewing was involved, then where the viewer was seated is irrelevant Georger.

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Offline georger

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4073 on: December 13, 2018, 01:30:19 AM »
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Georger wrote: “Gregory plays vital role for FBI and Geoff Gray but ........ they dont know where he sat on the plane!  :rofl:

If remote viewing was involved, then where the viewer was seated is irrelevant Georger.

377

Found this by Bruce Smith:

"Russet-colored suit, marcelled hair, Geoffrey Gray and Robert Gregory:

I think a bit more thought needs to go into assessing the primary source of the russet suit and marcelled hair bit. Specifically, who is Robert Gregory and what did he actually see?

Robert Gregory is deceased, but his nephew came to the 2013 Symposium in Tacoma. He said "Uncle Bob" loved to talk about the skyjacking and told lots of stories. However, I asked the nephew if Uncle Bob ever told the family where he was sitting on 305, and the guy said "Not to my knowledge."

As far as I know, Robert Gregory was sitting in the forward part of the aircraft and never was close to DB Cooper. Yes, he would have walked passed Cooper while entering the plane since all the passengers came up the stairway and then sat in open sitting.  Bill Mitchell said he came on early and DB Cooper was an early arrival as well, and took the seat nearest the stairs - Row 18.

But Gregory sat further forward in the early stages of the flight, and certainly was far forward of Cooper when the FA had everyone move up. Hence, Gregory's view of DB Cooper was modest, at best. Also, the widespread feeling was that no one knew they were being hijacked, so there was no particular reason to memorize the appearances of the other passengers.

It is my further understanding that Robert Gregory was not one of the five passengers who talked with the FBI immediately after deplaning in Seattle when the Bureau asked for volunteers to tell them who had a good look at the guy in Row 18. I forget who told me who the five were (Farflung?), but Bill Mitchell was one and I think Labissoniere was another.


As a result, Robert Gregory and his memories are late to the party.

Also, Gregory's additional comments are askew. Gregory says Cooper was 5'8" and mid-30s. No one else describes as such, and Gregory must be consider an outlier, even if he is correct.

Regarding Geoffrey Gray, he is certainly a big fan of Robert Gregory.  The compelling question is why.

One reason may be that GG found a tasty tidbit in the FBI's files about Gregory's claims, except that the agent doing the documenting mixed-up Robert Gregory with Bill Mitchell, and had Gregory sitting in Row 18, seat B.

Why GG didn't see this glaring discrepancy is up for discussion, but I find it very troubling. Particularly since GG is running so hard with the Robert Gregory scenarios, especially the marcelled hair and russet-colored suit.

It's goofs like this that lead me to wonder if GG is be part of the FBI's Norjak obfuscation campaign.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2014, 12:33:13 AM by Bruce A. Smith » "


I still want to how how it is that Gregory presumably works with the Las Vegas FBI to turn out the INITIAL sketch, if that is true! I mean Gregory got off the plane in Seattle! He didn't even talk to the FBI. Las Vegas FBI are in Las Vegas. How did Gregory get selected and who selected him and when, and why? Did the two communicate by ESP in between two states? And why doesn't Tom Kaye explain the genesis of the Initial sketch on his website! Once again Geoffrey Gray is totally useless in matters he himself sets in motion! Gray just likes tormenting people.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2018, 02:35:07 AM by georger »
 

Offline Unsurelock

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4074 on: December 13, 2018, 09:06:23 AM »
It appears GG may have merged Gregory & Mitchell rather than just confusing them. The Gates special has Gregory sitting "diagonally across from" Cooper, mentioned during the GG segment. So unless there was some specific information that either Gates or Gray found to place Gregory in row 17, this is not sounding reliable to me.

Also mentioned above is Mitchell calling Cooper an early arrival.
Is that statement from Bruce, or your input, Georger? Sluggo has him arriving second to last according to FBI sources.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4075 on: December 13, 2018, 01:24:22 PM »
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It appears GG may have merged Gregory & Mitchell rather than just confusing them. The Gates special has Gregory sitting "diagonally across from" Cooper, mentioned during the GG segment. So unless there was some specific information that either Gates or Gray found to place Gregory in row 17, this is not sounding reliable to me.

Also mentioned above is Mitchell calling Cooper an early arrival.
Is that statement from Bruce, or your input, Georger? Sluggo has him arriving second to last according to FBI sources.

Yes the quote is from Bruce. All other accounts have DC arriving late or last.

Who gave this LV 154 sketch to the world? Las Vegas, SEA, or Washington? And where was it made and who made it - supposedly using Gregory as the sole witness?
 
« Last Edit: December 13, 2018, 02:33:41 PM by georger »
 

Offline Unsurelock

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4076 on: December 15, 2018, 10:40:29 AM »
I hit a wall about a year ago when I tried finding a higher quality image of the Las Vegas sketch. Uniformly I was told that one was not available. Apparently, Sluggo had the same thought as I had, only earlier: that first impressions could be the closest to the truth. He found nothing, too.

This sketch has to have been digitized sometime between the 1990's and now, so there must have been a hard copy, whether from a newspaper/magazine or someone's personal collection.

If we can find the artist's name, their family may have the original. Any of your FBI contacts keep a rolodex? Maybe we can ask the LV bureau who was doing their drawings back then. It may also have been outsourced to local law enforcement until the FBI got feedback from the stews that it was inaccurate and called in Rose, who left in a rush for Minneapolis.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2018, 10:57:06 AM by Unsurelock »
 

Offline Unsurelock

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4077 on: December 15, 2018, 11:03:06 AM »
"BUR    LV  154-90"

Am I reading that right? Possibly "Bureau Las Vegas" followed by a file number? Can we use that to request info by FOIA?
« Last Edit: December 15, 2018, 11:04:19 AM by Unsurelock »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4078 on: December 15, 2018, 01:10:12 PM »
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"BUR    LV  154-90"

Am I reading that right? Possibly "Bureau Las Vegas" followed by a file number? Can we use that to request info by FOIA?

"BUR    LV  154-90" looks right.

Why is LV even involved with drawing a sketch of Cooper??  Why and how are they working with passenger Gregory who got off the plane at Seattle??

 
 

Offline georger

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #4079 on: December 15, 2018, 01:53:15 PM »
I think there may be a big historical error going on here with socalled sketch BUR  LV  154-90.

Why would Las Vegas be doing sketches at all. ?  The case was being run by the Seattle office and Washington. And Gregory wasnt even available to Las Vegas to be interviewed at all! Gregory was clear back at Seattle! So if this sketch has anything to do with Gregory in the early time frame of the hijacking, it has to originate in Seattle - not in Las Vegas. Las Vegas can only be a recipient of this sketch perhaps before 305 had even landed at Reno.

I think this sketch was done quickly at Seattle when the passengers got off the plane at SEA and started being interviewed. I think the sketch was prepared quickly for identification purposes at SEA and 'sent to Las Vegas' in case Cooper would still be on the plane when it landed at Reno. I think that is the only reason this sketch even exists. How and why Gregory's name is involved in this is a complete mystery! Obviously sleuths Gray, Kaye, Snowmman, and everyone else including the FBI failed to explain this sketch or reveal its actual history. Because once people got back on their feet (at Minneapolis) this sketch was instantly replaced by the Rose sketches!

There is no FBI document so far which explains this sketch or its origin. Gray fails completely in explaining its origin. Likewise Tom Kaye ... who had access to FBI documents at Seattle. People keep calling this the INITIAL SKETCH. So how and when does it even come into existence?

Bruce Smith is totally in the dark about its origin or even where Gregory sat on the plane.

The only thing giving this sketch some validity is Gray's insistence this is an important sketch and may be Cooper! That everyone else's description including the color of Cooper's jacket (Russet not black) may be wrong. Gray may have swapped actual historical fact for having an attention grabbing tag line for his book and giving lectures! Just as he swapped simple facts for outright lies in other areas of his book and personal communications when he was researching and then promoting his book, at the expense of others.

The simple fact is Gregory wasn't even available to LV to interview - Gray was clear back at Seattle! One possible reason this sketch is tagged "LV" is because they were sent this sketch by Washington or Seattle before 305 had even landed at Reno, and Las Vegas then claimed and tagged the sketch as their own and possibly distributed it on to other FBI offices, even when its actual origin was in Seattle ?

There have to be other FBI files which would shed light on this matter - we just havent seen any of those documents yet if they exist ? But, if there are no other FBI docs explaining this sketch then obviously it was a matter of lost history the FBI did not feel important enough to even explain or comment about. Once the sketch is made and passed on quickly, then there is nothing further to explain, pending better sketches done later under more controlled conditions where time and witnesses are available, in a controlled setting.   

The important issue is - is the sketch accurate and in what regard? So far, neither the FBI nor Cooper sleuths socalled have shed any light at all on that basic question. It is nothing more than a tag line in people's books and on people's websites. People claim Mucklow, Schafner, Hancock, and others rejected "BUR  LV  154-90" but we have no testimony from anyone about that! ??.
   
« Last Edit: December 15, 2018, 02:34:20 PM by georger »