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what do you want done with your account...I can see that you are still here active in the background?

If you delete my account does that delete all my posts?

It gives an option too. I don't hold anything against you and you should reconsider..it's up to you..

Unbelievable, this guy, FLYJACK, is argumentative and confrontational while crashing and burning before our very eyes.

Maybe it's you, FLYJACK, who doesn't allow open debate and critical thinking....you spew your theories, then belligerently attack anyone who disagrees with you.  Truth: you're an arrogant bully.  Try a new approach -- I thought they taught better manners in Canada -- they do in the Okanagan in BC, where I'm from.

Meyer

"crashing and burning" That is a joke...  I am just tired of personal attacks to defend poor thinking.. defend your dam conclusion with intellectual honesty.
 
I am 100% correct on this. My arg is neutral, you can't eliminate a suspect on an assumption. You need 100% proof to eliminate. Shutter's opinion is the extreme position and unproven. He has no arg to support it so he attacked my cred, he needs to prove why Hahneman is eliminated, he can't. It is an opinion without evidence to support a predetermined position. Shutter has trashed KC for years for being too short, so he can't accept Hahneman.. but Hahneman isn't 5' 8"... at least not while hijacking a 727. Passport info is just not accurate.


A reporter, eye witness account of the Hahneman hijacking..

"At 1:19, the captain’s voice again returned. “The colored- stewardess will be allowed to get off,” he said, “but only after all the other passengers have departed.” As passengers moved methodically toward the rear exit, carrying hand baggage, a sense of relief seemed evident in their quick strides. ......... I became so involved in trying to study him up close, but the sight of his gun turned my attention from him. The hijacker seemed middle-aged, about 5-feet 10-inches, black hair specked with traces of gray, a pointed nose and a dark complexion that seemed twice as menacing behind a pair of deeply tinted sunglasses."

BTW,,  I found something else some you of old time DZer's completely missed..

Al Lee described Tina as 5' 6", her FBI interview stated 5' 8"... so, either AL Lee is poor at height estimates ,Tina removed her shoes or she lies about her height. Research does show that height estimates are very poor..

Then I recalled...

Geoffrey Gray's book quote..

“I find Alice Hancock, the first class stew, living outside of Minneapolis. She answers the phone with a sweet voice, a cheerful personality. In retirement, she is studying Chinese. she remembers clear moments from the hijacking, how she attempted to lure young Tina away from the hijacker with playing cards, how copilot Bill Rataczak was freaking out in the cockpit and told her for some reason to remove her shoes."

SAY WHAT... I looked it up.. Emergency training procedure was to remove heels... in case of evacuation..

At that time almost all Stews wore heels, so did they remove their shoes? no idea.. but they were asked to.. and if they did Cooper would appear taller than he was..


Bottom line is, you can't eliminate Hahneman based on the info we have, maybe there is something we don't have that can.

If anybody actually has evidence that eliminates Hahneman let me know... So far, I haven't seen it..

Do you think he was available to do the hijacking? Wasn't some place else?

All I have found so far,,

He was never home, gone for many months at a time. Far East and Latin America.
He was home for Christmas 1971.
He was home two weeks prior to the 1972 EAL hijacking.

Did he appear Latin as per Flo ?  Hair style commonly used?

What do you think he did with the Cooper money? Was he in this for money?  His grudge?

Something I found that I hadn't already posted,,,

Hahneman's hijacked plane landed in Merida Mexico for refuelling, then he demanded the plane fly over British Honduras (Belize) but he jumped in neighbouring Honduras. The 727 did a loop and landed back in Merida Mexico..

Of course Cooper's initial demand was the same, to fly to Mexico for refuelling.. that was re-negotiated due to configuration range..

So, Cooper's plan A may have been to jump at the end of the flight in Mexico/Central America, but his plan B became to jump where he did.

"The replacement craft--also a 727--was backed tail to tail with the hijacked plane. The hijacker, carrying his gun and encircled by stewardesses and other crew members to shield him from possible sharpshooting FBI agents, transferred his gear, including six parachutes he had demanded and received, from the one plane to the other. From New Orleans the plane flew south landing at Merida, Mexico, a city on the coast of the Gulf of Mexico. After refueling it continued south over Central America. After the hijacker jumped, the aircraft returned to Merida where the crew rested for several hours before flying to Miami."

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what do you want done with your account...I can see that you are still here active in the background?

If you delete my account does that delete all my posts?

It gives an option too. I don't hold anything against you and you should reconsider..it's up to you..

Unbelievable, this guy, FLYJACK, is argumentative and confrontational while crashing and burning before our very eyes.

Maybe it's you, FLYJACK, who doesn't allow open debate and critical thinking....you spew your theories, then belligerently attack anyone who disagrees with you.  Truth: you're an arrogant bully.  Try a new approach -- I thought they taught better manners in Canada -- they do in the Okanagan in BC, where I'm from.

Meyer

"crashing and burning" That is a joke...  I am just tired of personal attacks to defend poor thinking.. defend your dam conclusion with intellectual honesty.
 
I am 100% correct on this. My arg is neutral, you can't eliminate a suspect on an assumption. You need 100% proof to eliminate. Shutter's opinion is the extreme position and unproven. He has no arg to support it so he attacked my cred, he needs to prove why Hahneman is eliminated, he can't. It is an opinion without evidence to support a predetermined position. Shutter has trashed KC for years for being too short, so he can't accept Hahneman.. but Hahneman isn't 5' 8"... at least not while hijacking a 727. Passport info is just not accurate.


A reporter, eye witness account of the Hahneman hijacking..

"At 1:19, the captain’s voice again returned. “The colored- stewardess will be allowed to get off,” he said, “but only after all the other passengers have departed.” As passengers moved methodically toward the rear exit, carrying hand baggage, a sense of relief seemed evident in their quick strides. ......... I became so involved in trying to study him up close, but the sight of his gun turned my attention from him. The hijacker seemed middle-aged, about 5-feet 10-inches, black hair specked with traces of gray, a pointed nose and a dark complexion that seemed twice as menacing behind a pair of deeply tinted sunglasses."

BTW,,  I found something else some you of old time DZer's completely missed..

Al Lee described Tina as 5' 6", her FBI interview stated 5' 8"... so, either AL Lee is poor at height estimates ,Tina removed her shoes or she lies about her height. Research does show that height estimates are very poor..

Then I recalled...

Geoffrey Gray's book quote..

“I find Alice Hancock, the first class stew, living outside of Minneapolis. She answers the phone with a sweet voice, a cheerful personality. In retirement, she is studying Chinese. she remembers clear moments from the hijacking, how she attempted to lure young Tina away from the hijacker with playing cards, how copilot Bill Rataczak was freaking out in the cockpit and told her for some reason to remove her shoes."

SAY WHAT... I looked it up.. Emergency training procedure was to remove heels... in case of evacuation..

At that time almost all Stews wore heels, so did they remove their shoes? no idea.. but they were asked to.. and if they did Cooper would appear taller than he was..


Bottom line is, you can't eliminate Hahneman based on the info we have, maybe there is something we don't have that can.

If anybody actually has evidence that eliminates Hahneman let me know... So far, I haven't seen it..

Do you think he was available to do the hijacking? Wasn't some place else?

All I have found so far,,

He was never home, gone for many months at a time. Far East and Latin America.
He was home for Christmas 1971.
He was home two weeks prior to the 1972 EAL hijacking.

Did he appear Latin as per Flo ?  Hair style commonly used?

What do you think he did with the Cooper money? Was he in this for money?  His grudge?

I have already posted all that info and much more.. Hahneman is an excellent match for the Cooper suspect descriptions and far better than any other known suspect.

If you don't actually read the posted information there is no baseline for discussion.

Perhaps Hahneman should have had his own thread to keep all the info organized..

.

Sometimes it is better to consider things a second time. Evidently not. 

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what do you want done with your account...I can see that you are still here active in the background?

If you delete my account does that delete all my posts?

It gives an option too. I don't hold anything against you and you should reconsider..it's up to you..

Unbelievable, this guy, FLYJACK, is argumentative and confrontational while crashing and burning before our very eyes.

Maybe it's you, FLYJACK, who doesn't allow open debate and critical thinking....you spew your theories, then belligerently attack anyone who disagrees with you.  Truth: you're an arrogant bully.  Try a new approach -- I thought they taught better manners in Canada -- they do in the Okanagan in BC, where I'm from.

Meyer

"crashing and burning" That is a joke...  I am just tired of personal attacks to defend poor thinking.. defend your dam conclusion with intellectual honesty.
 
I am 100% correct on this. My arg is neutral, you can't eliminate a suspect on an assumption. You need 100% proof to eliminate. Shutter's opinion is the extreme position and unproven. He has no arg to support it so he attacked my cred, he needs to prove why Hahneman is eliminated, he can't. It is an opinion without evidence to support a predetermined position. Shutter has trashed KC for years for being too short, so he can't accept Hahneman.. but Hahneman isn't 5' 8"... at least not while hijacking a 727. Passport info is just not accurate.


A reporter, eye witness account of the Hahneman hijacking..

"At 1:19, the captain’s voice again returned. “The colored- stewardess will be allowed to get off,” he said, “but only after all the other passengers have departed.” As passengers moved methodically toward the rear exit, carrying hand baggage, a sense of relief seemed evident in their quick strides. ......... I became so involved in trying to study him up close, but the sight of his gun turned my attention from him. The hijacker seemed middle-aged, about 5-feet 10-inches, black hair specked with traces of gray, a pointed nose and a dark complexion that seemed twice as menacing behind a pair of deeply tinted sunglasses."

BTW,,  I found something else some you of old time DZer's completely missed..

Al Lee described Tina as 5' 6", her FBI interview stated 5' 8"... so, either AL Lee is poor at height estimates ,Tina removed her shoes or she lies about her height. Research does show that height estimates are very poor..

Then I recalled...

Geoffrey Gray's book quote..

“I find Alice Hancock, the first class stew, living outside of Minneapolis. She answers the phone with a sweet voice, a cheerful personality. In retirement, she is studying Chinese. she remembers clear moments from the hijacking, how she attempted to lure young Tina away from the hijacker with playing cards, how copilot Bill Rataczak was freaking out in the cockpit and told her for some reason to remove her shoes."

SAY WHAT... I looked it up.. Emergency training procedure was to remove heels... in case of evacuation..

At that time almost all Stews wore heels, so did they remove their shoes? no idea.. but they were asked to.. and if they did Cooper would appear taller than he was..


Bottom line is, you can't eliminate Hahneman based on the info we have, maybe there is something we don't have that can.

If anybody actually has evidence that eliminates Hahneman let me know... So far, I haven't seen it..

Do you think he was available to do the hijacking? Wasn't some place else?

All I have found so far,,

He was never home, gone for many months at a time. Far East and Latin America.
He was home for Christmas 1971.
He was home two weeks prior to the 1972 EAL hijacking.

Did he appear Latin as per Flo ?  Hair style commonly used?

What do you think he did with the Cooper money? Was he in this for money?  His grudge?

I have already posted all that info and much more.. Hahneman is an excellent match for the Cooper suspect descriptions and far better than any other known suspect.

If you don't actually read the posted information there is no baseline for discussion.

Perhaps Hahneman should have had his own thread to keep all the info organized..

.

Sometimes it is better to consider things a second time. Evidently not.

If you guys (Shutter as well) don't actually read the posts which are full of cited pertinent information there is no baseline for credible discussion. I am not going to continually repeat it over and over again, there is far too much info to waste my time re-posting it. At some point, you have to take responsibility for your own knowledge base.

If anyone has a legit question, I'll try to answer but I am not going to spend time re-posting basic stuff that is already here and can be found with a simple search.

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Something I found that I hadn't already posted,,,

Hahneman's hijacked plane landed in Merida Mexico for refuelling, then he demanded the plane fly over British Honduras (Belize) but he jumped in neighbouring Honduras. The 727 did a loop and landed back in Merida Mexico..

Of course Cooper's initial demand was the same, to fly to Mexico for refuelling.. that was re-negotioated due to configuration range..

So, Cooper's plan A may have been to jump at the end of the flight in Mexico/Central America, but his plan B became to jump where he did.

"The replacement craft--also a 727--was backed tail to tail with the hijacked plane. The hijacker, carrying his gun and encircled by stewardesses and other crew members to shield him from possible sharpshooting FBI agents, transferred his gear, including six parachutes he had demanded and received, from the one plane to the other. From New Orleans the plane flew south landing at Merida, Mexico, a city on the coast of the Gulf of Mexico. After refueling it continued south over Central America. After the hijacker jumped, the aircraft returned to Merida where the crew rested for several hours before flying to Miami."

Cooper apparently didn't know the fuel range of a 727, in the configuration he also demanded. Or it was all a diversion.

who knows, Mexico was in range but not in that configuration, were his calcs just sloppy.. he seemed to be very knowledgeable in some things but not others.. IMO, he was sincere in his initial Mexico demand.

Flyjack, back in the 1960s and 1970s, there was a joke that went something like this:  "Why do all the people in the world (especially Southeast Asia) hate us (meaning the USA) since we are so sincere."

Sure, but we don't know if he was sincere or not, we don't know what he was thinking. IMO, he probably was but I wouldn't claim it to be a fact or deny he wasn't. Remember, it was Cooper's first 727 jump hijacking..

So, I don't know where you are going with that..

The takeaway is the consistency of those two hijacked 727's "refuelling in Mexico" one actually happened and one was requested. Do we just reject that relationship? It is part of the knowledge base..

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Something I found that I hadn't already posted,,,

Hahneman's hijacked plane landed in Merida Mexico for refuelling, then he demanded the plane fly over British Honduras (Belize) but he jumped in neighbouring Honduras. The 727 did a loop and landed back in Merida Mexico..

Of course Cooper's initial demand was the same, to fly to Mexico for refuelling.. that was re-negotioated due to configuration range..

So, Cooper's plan A may have been to jump at the end of the flight in Mexico/Central America, but his plan B became to jump where he did.

"The replacement craft--also a 727--was backed tail to tail with the hijacked plane. The hijacker, carrying his gun and encircled by stewardesses and other crew members to shield him from possible sharpshooting FBI agents, transferred his gear, including six parachutes he had demanded and received, from the one plane to the other. From New Orleans the plane flew south landing at Merida, Mexico, a city on the coast of the Gulf of Mexico. After refueling it continued south over Central America. After the hijacker jumped, the aircraft returned to Merida where the crew rested for several hours before flying to Miami."

Cooper apparently didn't know the fuel range of a 727, in the configuration he also demanded. Or it was all a diversion.

who knows, Mexico was in range but not in that configuration, were his calcs just sloppy.. he seemed to be very knowledgeable in some things but not others.. IMO, he was sincere in his initial Mexico demand.

Flyjack, back in the 1960s and 1970s, there was a joke that went something like this:  "Why do all the people in the world (especially Southeast Asia) hate us (meaning the USA) since we are so sincere."

Sure, but we don't know if he was sincere or not, we don't know what he was thinking. IMO, he probably was but I wouldn't claim it to be a fact or deny he wasn't. Remember, it was Cooper's first 727 jump hijacking..

So, I don't know where you are going with that..

The takeaway is the consistency of those two hijacked 727's "refuelling in Mexico" one actually happened and one was requested. Do we just reject that relationship? It is part of the knowledge base..

Actually, Cooper just wanted to go south.  He probably knew that the 727 could not make it from Seattle to Mexico with the landing gear down, flaps down, and cruising at less than 200 knots.  Mexico would have been about a 7 or 8 hour flight from Seattle with that configuration.

"probably knew" -  we just can't know that, is it possible, sure.. of course

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Something I found that I hadn't already posted,,,

Hahneman's hijacked plane landed in Merida Mexico for refuelling, then he demanded the plane fly over British Honduras (Belize) but he jumped in neighbouring Honduras. The 727 did a loop and landed back in Merida Mexico..

Of course Cooper's initial demand was the same, to fly to Mexico for refuelling.. that was re-negotioated due to configuration range..

So, Cooper's plan A may have been to jump at the end of the flight in Mexico/Central America, but his plan B became to jump where he did.

"The replacement craft--also a 727--was backed tail to tail with the hijacked plane. The hijacker, carrying his gun and encircled by stewardesses and other crew members to shield him from possible sharpshooting FBI agents, transferred his gear, including six parachutes he had demanded and received, from the one plane to the other. From New Orleans the plane flew south landing at Merida, Mexico, a city on the coast of the Gulf of Mexico. After refueling it continued south over Central America. After the hijacker jumped, the aircraft returned to Merida where the crew rested for several hours before flying to Miami."

Cooper apparently didn't know the fuel range of a 727, in the configuration he also demanded. Or it was all a diversion.

who knows, Mexico was in range but not in that configuration, were his calcs just sloppy.. he seemed to be very knowledgeable in some things but not others.. IMO, he was sincere in his initial Mexico demand.

Flyjack, back in the 1960s and 1970s, there was a joke that went something like this:  "Why do all the people in the world (especially Southeast Asia) hate us (meaning the USA) since we are so sincere."

Sure, but we don't know if he was sincere or not, we don't know what he was thinking. IMO, he probably was but I wouldn't claim it to be a fact or deny he wasn't. Remember, it was Cooper's first 727 jump hijacking..

So, I don't know where you are going with that..

The takeaway is the consistency of those two hijacked 727's "refuelling in Mexico" one actually happened and one was requested. Do we just reject that relationship? It is part of the knowledge base..

Actually, Cooper just wanted to go south.  He probably knew that the 727 could not make it from Seattle to Mexico with the landing gear down, flaps down, and cruising at less than 200 knots.  Mexico would have been about a 7 or 8 hour flight from Seattle with that configuration.

"probably knew" -  we just can't know that, is it possible, sure.. of course

If Cooper didn't know then he was to stupid to be hijacking airplanes.

Maybe he was, he couldn't operate the ventral stairs after being shown,, it is still an assumption though.. maybe the "jump" configuration request was a last minute thing or he changed his plan or he just made it up on the fly. Lots of reasons he could have got that wrong..

My overall impression of Cooper was that he was knowledgeable but not experienced..