Author Topic: Suspects And Confessions  (Read 278355 times)

Offline FLYJACK

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #3120 on: July 09, 2018, 09:18:01 PM »
Actually, my personal fav is Kilkenny Irish Cream Ale.. (No Kenny Christiansen's were harmed in its manufacture)

My US friends said they could never find it, but I have heard it does exist in some areas..
 

Offline FLYJACK

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #3121 on: July 09, 2018, 09:47:12 PM »
Here is something I have been thinking about...

Cooper factual baseline

Cooper asked to go to Mexico City- no landing in US.

Ordered plane at 10,000 ft and ventral stairs open on takeoff.

Cooper was convinced the 727 didn’t have that range and Reno was decided after some negotiation.


Analysis

By not knowing the range of 727 Cooper demonstrated poor knowledge about 727’s..

By ordering ventral stairs open on takeoff he demonstrated rare knowledge, however he incorrectly thought the pilot controlled the ventral stairs, aka lack of knowledge. He later had trouble opening the stairs - again lack of knowledge.

Cooper's original plan to go to Mexico City was changed, he never gave flightpath instructions - suggests he wanted to jump immediately or didn’t have a US LZ.


Hahneman factual baseline

Hahneman flew from New Orleans, he jumped as 727 looped over NorthEast Honduras and plane landed in Mexico.
Hahneman was strongly anti-comminist. <<<important



Theoretical Facts

If Hahneman was Cooper..

He laughed when asked if they were going to Cuba. (anti-communist) Go to someplace nice, (Honduras?)

He ordered the plane to Mexico City, on the direct path to and close to Honduras where he would have jumped 6 months later.
He would have planned to jump at the end of flight in/near Honduras, would not be concerned with flightpath until end.
He would have liked to have the plane at 10,000 ft with ventral door open as he thought it was controlled by the pilots, otherwise he could have been trapped in the plane via the rear stairs or plane elevation.

When Mexico City was changed to Reno, his plan had to change and he knew he had to jump in the US.. the jump was blind and not his intended LZ. Pressure was to get out of plane ASAP...

This is contrary to what I always believed.. I always thought Cooper wanted to jump immediately. There is a logical argument for that. But, if Cooper was Hahneman the above makes logical sense based on his 1972 hijacking.

image flightpath
« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 09:51:25 PM by FLYJACK »
 
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Offline sry828

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #3122 on: July 10, 2018, 01:29:25 PM »
I may have missed this.  Did anyone ever provide an explanation for the odd ransom amount Hahneman requested?  $303,000 is pretty specific.
 

Offline FLYJACK

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #3123 on: July 10, 2018, 01:57:37 PM »
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I may have missed this.  Did anyone ever provide an explanation for the odd ransom amount Hahneman requested?  $303,000 is pretty specific.

There is really nothing on Hahneman..

I also thought that $303,000 was oddly specific.. 

In May of 1972 the Honduran currency was 1 USD = 2.000009 HLN

EDIT,, If Hahneman were to convert the $303,000 USD to HLN at 1% fee that would leave 600,000 HLN

Mexico was 1 USD = 0.0125 MXN

Guatemala was 1 - 1
« Last Edit: July 10, 2018, 02:43:10 PM by FLYJACK »
 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #3124 on: July 10, 2018, 06:07:25 PM »
Post removed due to multiple reports...
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #3125 on: July 10, 2018, 08:53:39 PM »
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I may have missed this.  Did anyone ever provide an explanation for the odd ransom amount Hahneman requested?  $303,000 is pretty specific.

There is really nothing on Hahneman..

I also thought that $303,000 was oddly specific.. 

In May of 1972 the Honduran currency was 1 USD = 2.000009 HLN

EDIT,, If Hahneman were to convert the $303,000 USD to HLN at 1% fee that would leave 600,000 HLN

Mexico was 1 USD = 0.0125 MXN

Guatemala was 1 - 1

I've seen some explanations of this. Most likely was Brendan Kernan's Love and Fear in the Skies - The Golden Age of Skyjackings

The answers were simple and straightforward. Three grand to repay some kind of debt/theft that made sense to Hahneman.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2018, 08:53:59 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 
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Offline FLYJACK

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #3126 on: July 10, 2018, 10:03:08 PM »
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I may have missed this.  Did anyone ever provide an explanation for the odd ransom amount Hahneman requested?  $303,000 is pretty specific.

There is really nothing on Hahneman..

I also thought that $303,000 was oddly specific.. 

In May of 1972 the Honduran currency was 1 USD = 2.000009 HLN

EDIT,, If Hahneman were to convert the $303,000 USD to HLN at 1% fee that would leave 600,000 HLN

Mexico was 1 USD = 0.0125 MXN

Guatemala was 1 - 1

I've seen some explanations of this. Most likely was Brendan Kernan's Love and Fear in the Skies - The Golden Age of Skyjackings

The answers were simple and straightforward. Three grand to repay some kind of debt/theft that made sense to Hahneman.

the book is called..

The Skies Belong to Us: Love and Terror in the Golden Age of Hijacking
By Brendan I. Koerner

I have read snippits from it and didn't see that about Hahneman.. I don't have the book..  are you sure it was Hahneman and not one of the other hijackers.. he mentions others with outstanding debts.
 
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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #3127 on: July 11, 2018, 02:59:12 AM »
I'll check my notes.

Yep, you've got the correct book title and author.
 

Offline FLYJACK

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #3128 on: July 11, 2018, 09:48:31 AM »
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Here is something I have been thinking about...

Cooper factual baseline

Cooper asked to go to Mexico City- no landing in US.

Ordered plane at 10,000 ft and ventral stairs open on takeoff.

Cooper was convinced the 727 didn’t have that range and Reno was decided after some negotiation.


Analysis

By not knowing the range of 727 Cooper demonstrated poor knowledge about 727’s..

By ordering ventral stairs open on takeoff he demonstrated rare knowledge, however he incorrectly thought the pilot controlled the ventral stairs, aka lack of knowledge. He later had trouble opening the stairs - again lack of knowledge.

Cooper's original plan to go to Mexico City was changed, he never gave flightpath instructions - suggests he wanted to jump immediately or didn’t have a US LZ.


Hahneman factual baseline

Hahneman flew from New Orleans, he jumped as 727 looped over NorthEast Honduras and plane landed in Mexico.
Hahneman was strongly anti-comminist. <<<important



Theoretical Facts

If Hahneman was Cooper..

He laughed when asked if they were going to Cuba. (anti-communist) Go to someplace nice, (Honduras?)

He ordered the plane to Mexico City, on the direct path to and close to Honduras where he would have jumped 6 months later.
He would have planned to jump at the end of flight in/near Honduras, would not be concerned with flightpath until end.
He would have liked to have the plane at 10,000 ft with ventral door open as he thought it was controlled by the pilots, otherwise he could have been trapped in the plane via the rear stairs or plane elevation.

When Mexico City was changed to Reno, his plan had to change and he knew he had to jump in the US.. the jump was blind and not his intended LZ. Pressure was to get out of plane ASAP...

This is contrary to what I always believed.. I always thought Cooper wanted to jump immediately. There is a logical argument for that. But, if Cooper was Hahneman the above makes logical sense based on his 1972 hijacking.

image flightpath

slight correction from FBI files...

Cooper demanded Mexico City and stop anywhere in Mexico for refuelling, no landing in US. Mexico City was out of range but other cities in Mexico were not. Cooper was not wrong about the 727 range.

If Cooper were Hahneman and the plane stopped to refuel in Mexico before Mexico City, it would have been a short flight, in range, same path to Honduras.
 

Robert99

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #3129 on: July 11, 2018, 12:59:23 PM »
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Here is something I have been thinking about...

Cooper factual baseline

Cooper asked to go to Mexico City- no landing in US.

Ordered plane at 10,000 ft and ventral stairs open on takeoff.

Cooper was convinced the 727 didn’t have that range and Reno was decided after some negotiation.


Analysis

By not knowing the range of 727 Cooper demonstrated poor knowledge about 727’s..

By ordering ventral stairs open on takeoff he demonstrated rare knowledge, however he incorrectly thought the pilot controlled the ventral stairs, aka lack of knowledge. He later had trouble opening the stairs - again lack of knowledge.

Cooper's original plan to go to Mexico City was changed, he never gave flightpath instructions - suggests he wanted to jump immediately or didn’t have a US LZ.


Hahneman factual baseline

Hahneman flew from New Orleans, he jumped as 727 looped over NorthEast Honduras and plane landed in Mexico.
Hahneman was strongly anti-comminist. <<<important



Theoretical Facts

If Hahneman was Cooper..

He laughed when asked if they were going to Cuba. (anti-communist) Go to someplace nice, (Honduras?)

He ordered the plane to Mexico City, on the direct path to and close to Honduras where he would have jumped 6 months later.
He would have planned to jump at the end of flight in/near Honduras, would not be concerned with flightpath until end.
He would have liked to have the plane at 10,000 ft with ventral door open as he thought it was controlled by the pilots, otherwise he could have been trapped in the plane via the rear stairs or plane elevation.

When Mexico City was changed to Reno, his plan had to change and he knew he had to jump in the US.. the jump was blind and not his intended LZ. Pressure was to get out of plane ASAP...

This is contrary to what I always believed.. I always thought Cooper wanted to jump immediately. There is a logical argument for that. But, if Cooper was Hahneman the above makes logical sense based on his 1972 hijacking.

image flightpath

slight correction from FBI files...

Cooper demanded Mexico City and stop anywhere in Mexico for refuelling, no landing in US. Mexico City was out of range but other cities in Mexico were not. Cooper was not wrong about the 727 range.

If Cooper were Hahneman and the plane stopped to refuel in Mexico before Mexico City, it would have been a short flight, in range, same path to Honduras.

Flyjack, Mexico was out of range from Seattle for the 727 with the landing gear down, flaps extended, and flying at less than 200 MPH at 10,000 feet as Cooper specified.  Mexico is only about 20 miles south of San Diego and Reno is still quite a distance from San Diego/Mexico.

The only thing that might be 727 specific in Cooper's aircraft configuration is the flap setting.  The rest is not specific to any single aircraft.
 
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Offline FLYJACK

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #3130 on: July 11, 2018, 01:19:52 PM »
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Here is something I have been thinking about...

Cooper factual baseline

Cooper asked to go to Mexico City- no landing in US.

Ordered plane at 10,000 ft and ventral stairs open on takeoff.

Cooper was convinced the 727 didn’t have that range and Reno was decided after some negotiation.


Analysis

By not knowing the range of 727 Cooper demonstrated poor knowledge about 727’s..

By ordering ventral stairs open on takeoff he demonstrated rare knowledge, however he incorrectly thought the pilot controlled the ventral stairs, aka lack of knowledge. He later had trouble opening the stairs - again lack of knowledge.

Cooper's original plan to go to Mexico City was changed, he never gave flightpath instructions - suggests he wanted to jump immediately or didn’t have a US LZ.


Hahneman factual baseline

Hahneman flew from New Orleans, he jumped as 727 looped over NorthEast Honduras and plane landed in Mexico.
Hahneman was strongly anti-comminist. <<<important



Theoretical Facts

If Hahneman was Cooper..

He laughed when asked if they were going to Cuba. (anti-communist) Go to someplace nice, (Honduras?)

He ordered the plane to Mexico City, on the direct path to and close to Honduras where he would have jumped 6 months later.
He would have planned to jump at the end of flight in/near Honduras, would not be concerned with flightpath until end.
He would have liked to have the plane at 10,000 ft with ventral door open as he thought it was controlled by the pilots, otherwise he could have been trapped in the plane via the rear stairs or plane elevation.

When Mexico City was changed to Reno, his plan had to change and he knew he had to jump in the US.. the jump was blind and not his intended LZ. Pressure was to get out of plane ASAP...

This is contrary to what I always believed.. I always thought Cooper wanted to jump immediately. There is a logical argument for that. But, if Cooper was Hahneman the above makes logical sense based on his 1972 hijacking.

image flightpath

slight correction from FBI files...

Cooper demanded Mexico City and stop anywhere in Mexico for refuelling, no landing in US. Mexico City was out of range but other cities in Mexico were not. Cooper was not wrong about the 727 range.

If Cooper were Hahneman and the plane stopped to refuel in Mexico before Mexico City, it would have been a short flight, in range, same path to Honduras.

Flyjack, Mexico was out of range from Seattle for the 727 with the landing gear down, flaps extended, and flying at less than 200 MPH at 10,000 feet as Cooper specified.  Mexico is only about 20 miles south of San Diego and Reno is still quite a distance from San Diego/Mexico.

The only thing that might be 727 specific in Cooper's aircraft configuration is the flap setting.  The rest is not specific to any single aircraft.

Yes, I agree, Mexico was not in range in that configuration, but it was otherwise in range.

So, Cooper didn't get the 727 range wrong, he got the configuration impact wrong.

It demonstrates a lack of configuration knowledge.

IMO, his configuration suggests he wanted to ensure the pilots couldn't trap him in the plane. (thinking the pilots controlled the exit) With no understanding of range impact.


So with no designated flightpath Cooper's initial plan was to jump immediately after Seattle takeoff or after refuelling in Mexico... that got changed when they decided on Reno.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2018, 01:25:03 PM by FLYJACK »
 

Robert99

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #3131 on: July 11, 2018, 01:28:38 PM »
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Here is something I have been thinking about...

Cooper factual baseline

Cooper asked to go to Mexico City- no landing in US.

Ordered plane at 10,000 ft and ventral stairs open on takeoff.

Cooper was convinced the 727 didn’t have that range and Reno was decided after some negotiation.


Analysis

By not knowing the range of 727 Cooper demonstrated poor knowledge about 727’s..

By ordering ventral stairs open on takeoff he demonstrated rare knowledge, however he incorrectly thought the pilot controlled the ventral stairs, aka lack of knowledge. He later had trouble opening the stairs - again lack of knowledge.

Cooper's original plan to go to Mexico City was changed, he never gave flightpath instructions - suggests he wanted to jump immediately or didn’t have a US LZ.


Hahneman factual baseline

Hahneman flew from New Orleans, he jumped as 727 looped over NorthEast Honduras and plane landed in Mexico.
Hahneman was strongly anti-comminist. <<<important



Theoretical Facts

If Hahneman was Cooper..

He laughed when asked if they were going to Cuba. (anti-communist) Go to someplace nice, (Honduras?)

He ordered the plane to Mexico City, on the direct path to and close to Honduras where he would have jumped 6 months later.
He would have planned to jump at the end of flight in/near Honduras, would not be concerned with flightpath until end.
He would have liked to have the plane at 10,000 ft with ventral door open as he thought it was controlled by the pilots, otherwise he could have been trapped in the plane via the rear stairs or plane elevation.

When Mexico City was changed to Reno, his plan had to change and he knew he had to jump in the US.. the jump was blind and not his intended LZ. Pressure was to get out of plane ASAP...

This is contrary to what I always believed.. I always thought Cooper wanted to jump immediately. There is a logical argument for that. But, if Cooper was Hahneman the above makes logical sense based on his 1972 hijacking.

image flightpath

slight correction from FBI files...

Cooper demanded Mexico City and stop anywhere in Mexico for refuelling, no landing in US. Mexico City was out of range but other cities in Mexico were not. Cooper was not wrong about the 727 range.

If Cooper were Hahneman and the plane stopped to refuel in Mexico before Mexico City, it would have been a short flight, in range, same path to Honduras.

Flyjack, Mexico was out of range from Seattle for the 727 with the landing gear down, flaps extended, and flying at less than 200 MPH at 10,000 feet as Cooper specified.  Mexico is only about 20 miles south of San Diego and Reno is still quite a distance from San Diego/Mexico.

The only thing that might be 727 specific in Cooper's aircraft configuration is the flap setting.  The rest is not specific to any single aircraft.

Yes, I agree, Mexico was not in range in that configuration, but it was otherwise in range.

So, Cooper didn't get the 727 range wrong, he got the configuration impact wrong.

It demonstrates a lack of configuration knowledge.

IMO, his configuration suggests he wanted to ensure the pilots couldn't trap him in the plane. (thinking the pilots controlled the exit) With no understanding of range impact.


So with no designated flightpath Cooper's initial plan was to jump immediately after Seattle takeoff or after refuelling in Mexico... that got changed when they decided on Reno.

Mexico was probably just a talking point for Cooper.  There is actually nothing to indicate that he was intending to go there.  And there was plenty of indications that he was seriously interested in jumping as soon as possible after taking off from SEATAC.
 
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Offline FLYJACK

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #3132 on: July 11, 2018, 01:37:57 PM »
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Here is something I have been thinking about...

Cooper factual baseline

Cooper asked to go to Mexico City- no landing in US.

Ordered plane at 10,000 ft and ventral stairs open on takeoff.

Cooper was convinced the 727 didn’t have that range and Reno was decided after some negotiation.


Analysis

By not knowing the range of 727 Cooper demonstrated poor knowledge about 727’s..

By ordering ventral stairs open on takeoff he demonstrated rare knowledge, however he incorrectly thought the pilot controlled the ventral stairs, aka lack of knowledge. He later had trouble opening the stairs - again lack of knowledge.

Cooper's original plan to go to Mexico City was changed, he never gave flightpath instructions - suggests he wanted to jump immediately or didn’t have a US LZ.


Hahneman factual baseline

Hahneman flew from New Orleans, he jumped as 727 looped over NorthEast Honduras and plane landed in Mexico.
Hahneman was strongly anti-comminist. <<<important



Theoretical Facts

If Hahneman was Cooper..

He laughed when asked if they were going to Cuba. (anti-communist) Go to someplace nice, (Honduras?)

He ordered the plane to Mexico City, on the direct path to and close to Honduras where he would have jumped 6 months later.
He would have planned to jump at the end of flight in/near Honduras, would not be concerned with flightpath until end.
He would have liked to have the plane at 10,000 ft with ventral door open as he thought it was controlled by the pilots, otherwise he could have been trapped in the plane via the rear stairs or plane elevation.

When Mexico City was changed to Reno, his plan had to change and he knew he had to jump in the US.. the jump was blind and not his intended LZ. Pressure was to get out of plane ASAP...

This is contrary to what I always believed.. I always thought Cooper wanted to jump immediately. There is a logical argument for that. But, if Cooper was Hahneman the above makes logical sense based on his 1972 hijacking.

image flightpath

slight correction from FBI files...

Cooper demanded Mexico City and stop anywhere in Mexico for refuelling, no landing in US. Mexico City was out of range but other cities in Mexico were not. Cooper was not wrong about the 727 range.

If Cooper were Hahneman and the plane stopped to refuel in Mexico before Mexico City, it would have been a short flight, in range, same path to Honduras.

Flyjack, Mexico was out of range from Seattle for the 727 with the landing gear down, flaps extended, and flying at less than 200 MPH at 10,000 feet as Cooper specified.  Mexico is only about 20 miles south of San Diego and Reno is still quite a distance from San Diego/Mexico.

The only thing that might be 727 specific in Cooper's aircraft configuration is the flap setting.  The rest is not specific to any single aircraft.

Yes, I agree, Mexico was not in range in that configuration, but it was otherwise in range.

So, Cooper didn't get the 727 range wrong, he got the configuration impact wrong.

It demonstrates a lack of configuration knowledge.

IMO, his configuration suggests he wanted to ensure the pilots couldn't trap him in the plane. (thinking the pilots controlled the exit) With no understanding of range impact.


So with no designated flightpath Cooper's initial plan was to jump immediately after Seattle takeoff or after refuelling in Mexico... that got changed when they decided on Reno.

Mexico was probably just a talking point for Cooper.  There is actually nothing to indicate that he was intending to go there.  And there was plenty of indications that he was seriously interested in jumping as soon as possible after taking off from SEATAC.

IMO, it can go either way, there is a logical argument for both scenarios.

but he said "Mexico City" stop anywhere in Mexico for refuelling.. not in US << if he was jumping immediately that was entirely unnecessary. He could have just picked any southern destination even in US.

Also, the controversial "American Currency" may suggest a foreign influence..

but, it may certainly be that he wanted to jump immediately, I don't rule it out.

My point is some of the indications Cooper wanted to jump immediately came after the destination was changed to Reno. The only indication prior to Reno was the configuration, that can also be attributed to Cooper believing the pilot controlled the rear exit and that he did not want to be trapped in the plane.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2018, 06:01:57 PM by FLYJACK »
 

Robert99

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #3133 on: July 11, 2018, 03:31:02 PM »
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Here is something I have been thinking about...

Cooper factual baseline

Cooper asked to go to Mexico City- no landing in US.

Ordered plane at 10,000 ft and ventral stairs open on takeoff.

Cooper was convinced the 727 didn’t have that range and Reno was decided after some negotiation.


Analysis

By not knowing the range of 727 Cooper demonstrated poor knowledge about 727’s..

By ordering ventral stairs open on takeoff he demonstrated rare knowledge, however he incorrectly thought the pilot controlled the ventral stairs, aka lack of knowledge. He later had trouble opening the stairs - again lack of knowledge.

Cooper's original plan to go to Mexico City was changed, he never gave flightpath instructions - suggests he wanted to jump immediately or didn’t have a US LZ.


Hahneman factual baseline

Hahneman flew from New Orleans, he jumped as 727 looped over NorthEast Honduras and plane landed in Mexico.
Hahneman was strongly anti-comminist. <<<important



Theoretical Facts

If Hahneman was Cooper..

He laughed when asked if they were going to Cuba. (anti-communist) Go to someplace nice, (Honduras?)

He ordered the plane to Mexico City, on the direct path to and close to Honduras where he would have jumped 6 months later.
He would have planned to jump at the end of flight in/near Honduras, would not be concerned with flightpath until end.
He would have liked to have the plane at 10,000 ft with ventral door open as he thought it was controlled by the pilots, otherwise he could have been trapped in the plane via the rear stairs or plane elevation.

When Mexico City was changed to Reno, his plan had to change and he knew he had to jump in the US.. the jump was blind and not his intended LZ. Pressure was to get out of plane ASAP...

This is contrary to what I always believed.. I always thought Cooper wanted to jump immediately. There is a logical argument for that. But, if Cooper was Hahneman the above makes logical sense based on his 1972 hijacking.

image flightpath

slight correction from FBI files...

Cooper demanded Mexico City and stop anywhere in Mexico for refuelling, no landing in US. Mexico City was out of range but other cities in Mexico were not. Cooper was not wrong about the 727 range.

If Cooper were Hahneman and the plane stopped to refuel in Mexico before Mexico City, it would have been a short flight, in range, same path to Honduras.

Flyjack, Mexico was out of range from Seattle for the 727 with the landing gear down, flaps extended, and flying at less than 200 MPH at 10,000 feet as Cooper specified.  Mexico is only about 20 miles south of San Diego and Reno is still quite a distance from San Diego/Mexico.

The only thing that might be 727 specific in Cooper's aircraft configuration is the flap setting.  The rest is not specific to any single aircraft.

Yes, I agree, Mexico was not in range in that configuration, but it was otherwise in range.

So, Cooper didn't get the 727 range wrong, he got the configuration impact wrong.

It demonstrates a lack of configuration knowledge.

IMO, his configuration suggests he wanted to ensure the pilots couldn't trap him in the plane. (thinking the pilots controlled the exit) With no understanding of range impact.


So with no designated flightpath Cooper's initial plan was to jump immediately after Seattle takeoff or after refuelling in Mexico... that got changed when they decided on Reno.

Mexico was probably just a talking point for Cooper.  There is actually nothing to indicate that he was intending to go there.  And there was plenty of indications that he was seriously interested in jumping as soon as possible after taking off from SEATAC.

IMO, it can go either way, there is a logical argument for both scenarios.

but he said "Mexico City" stop anywhere in Mexico for refuelling.. not in US << if he was jumping immediately that was entirely unnecessary. He could have just picked any southern destination even in US.

Also, the controversial "American Currency" may suggest a foreign influence..

but, it may certainly be that he wanted to jump immediately, I don't rule it out.

"Mexico City" and "American currency" are words attributed to Cooper by others.  He may, or may not, have ever used those words.  Until Tina was sent to the cockpit after the take off to Reno, all of Cooper's words (except for the initial note which was returned to him) went through at least two flight attendants.  Tina in the aft cabin with Cooper and Flo who was told to remain in the cockpit and make notes of what Tina called in over the interphone.
 

Offline FLYJACK

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #3134 on: July 11, 2018, 03:42:04 PM »
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Here is something I have been thinking about...

Cooper factual baseline

Cooper asked to go to Mexico City- no landing in US.

Ordered plane at 10,000 ft and ventral stairs open on takeoff.

Cooper was convinced the 727 didn’t have that range and Reno was decided after some negotiation.


Analysis

By not knowing the range of 727 Cooper demonstrated poor knowledge about 727’s..

By ordering ventral stairs open on takeoff he demonstrated rare knowledge, however he incorrectly thought the pilot controlled the ventral stairs, aka lack of knowledge. He later had trouble opening the stairs - again lack of knowledge.

Cooper's original plan to go to Mexico City was changed, he never gave flightpath instructions - suggests he wanted to jump immediately or didn’t have a US LZ.


Hahneman factual baseline

Hahneman flew from New Orleans, he jumped as 727 looped over NorthEast Honduras and plane landed in Mexico.
Hahneman was strongly anti-comminist. <<<important



Theoretical Facts

If Hahneman was Cooper..

He laughed when asked if they were going to Cuba. (anti-communist) Go to someplace nice, (Honduras?)

He ordered the plane to Mexico City, on the direct path to and close to Honduras where he would have jumped 6 months later.
He would have planned to jump at the end of flight in/near Honduras, would not be concerned with flightpath until end.
He would have liked to have the plane at 10,000 ft with ventral door open as he thought it was controlled by the pilots, otherwise he could have been trapped in the plane via the rear stairs or plane elevation.

When Mexico City was changed to Reno, his plan had to change and he knew he had to jump in the US.. the jump was blind and not his intended LZ. Pressure was to get out of plane ASAP...

This is contrary to what I always believed.. I always thought Cooper wanted to jump immediately. There is a logical argument for that. But, if Cooper was Hahneman the above makes logical sense based on his 1972 hijacking.

image flightpath

slight correction from FBI files...

Cooper demanded Mexico City and stop anywhere in Mexico for refuelling, no landing in US. Mexico City was out of range but other cities in Mexico were not. Cooper was not wrong about the 727 range.

If Cooper were Hahneman and the plane stopped to refuel in Mexico before Mexico City, it would have been a short flight, in range, same path to Honduras.

Flyjack, Mexico was out of range from Seattle for the 727 with the landing gear down, flaps extended, and flying at less than 200 MPH at 10,000 feet as Cooper specified.  Mexico is only about 20 miles south of San Diego and Reno is still quite a distance from San Diego/Mexico.

The only thing that might be 727 specific in Cooper's aircraft configuration is the flap setting.  The rest is not specific to any single aircraft.

Yes, I agree, Mexico was not in range in that configuration, but it was otherwise in range.

So, Cooper didn't get the 727 range wrong, he got the configuration impact wrong.

It demonstrates a lack of configuration knowledge.

IMO, his configuration suggests he wanted to ensure the pilots couldn't trap him in the plane. (thinking the pilots controlled the exit) With no understanding of range impact.


So with no designated flightpath Cooper's initial plan was to jump immediately after Seattle takeoff or after refuelling in Mexico... that got changed when they decided on Reno.

Mexico was probably just a talking point for Cooper.  There is actually nothing to indicate that he was intending to go there.  And there was plenty of indications that he was seriously interested in jumping as soon as possible after taking off from SEATAC.

IMO, it can go either way, there is a logical argument for both scenarios.

but he said "Mexico City" stop anywhere in Mexico for refuelling.. not in US << if he was jumping immediately that was entirely unnecessary. He could have just picked any southern destination even in US.

Also, the controversial "American Currency" may suggest a foreign influence..

but, it may certainly be that he wanted to jump immediately, I don't rule it out.

"Mexico City" and "American currency" are words attributed to Cooper by others.  He may, or may not, have ever used those words.  Until Tina was sent to the cockpit after the take off to Reno, all of Cooper's words (except for the initial note which was returned to him) went through at least two flight attendants.  Tina in the aft cabin with Cooper and Flo who was told to remain in the cockpit and make notes of what Tina called in over the interphone.

Sure, but if you apply that standard, you can toss 100% of the FBI information. Everything has gone through intermediation.