Author Topic: New Forum & News Updates  (Read 753507 times)

Offline Robert99

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6435 on: October 26, 2019, 02:26:37 PM »
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It is very disappointing that they lost the cig butts. Almost incomprehensible(sp?). Any chance they are blowing smoke about losing them?

Yup.

1. Smokin'99 posted on the DZ that Ckret said the cigarettes were "processed" before being lost. So, plausibly, the "paperwork" on the processing is also "lost."

2. The DOJ and the US Congress investigated the FBI's National Crime Lab in 1996 due to ten-year's worth of whistleblower complaints about criminal and unprofessional conduct there by FBI agents and lab techs. They found dozens of instances of false findings, lost evidence, manufactured evidence, false testimony and falsified reports. For more details, see John F. Kelley's book, Tainting Evidence.

1. not necessarily. Storage of an item and paper work on processing results are two different matters. There would be a main file of lab results then copies sent out to all concerned ... in addition if an item was destroyed there would be paper work on that. Saying an item has been lost does not guarantee it no longer exists! Lost and destroyed are two entirely different things. I am willing to bet there is no paper work certifying that the butts was "Destroyed".   

I would like to see those results.

Georger, why don't you start an FOIA action to get those results?  Perhaps you can get MZ to represent you.  But don't do anything to interfere with his representation of the whistleblower.  That is vastly more important than anything related to Cooper.
 
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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6436 on: October 27, 2019, 05:28:02 AM »
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It is very disappointing that they lost the cig butts. Almost incomprehensible(sp?). Any chance they are blowing smoke about losing them?

Yup.

1. Smokin'99 posted on the DZ that Ckret said the cigarettes were "processed" before being lost. So, plausibly, the "paperwork" on the processing is also "lost."

2. The DOJ and the US Congress investigated the FBI's National Crime Lab in 1996 due to ten-year's worth of whistleblower complaints about criminal and unprofessional conduct there by FBI agents and lab techs. They found dozens of instances of false findings, lost evidence, manufactured evidence, false testimony and falsified reports. For more details, see John F. Kelley's book, Tainting Evidence.

1. not necessarily. Storage of an item and paper work on processing results are two different matters. There would be a main file of lab results then copies sent out to all concerned ... in addition if an item was destroyed there would be paper work on that. Saying an item has been lost does not guarantee it no longer exists! Lost and destroyed are two entirely different things. I am willing to bet there is no paper work certifying that the butts was "Destroyed".   

I would like to see those results.

Me, too.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2019, 05:28:28 AM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline haggarknew

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6437 on: October 27, 2019, 07:09:46 AM »
In an earlier post Bruce mentioned of the possible disagreement (not sure of term used) between Himms (Portland field office?) and the Seattle office or Seattle agents? Could anyone expound on this possibility?
 

Offline georger

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6438 on: October 27, 2019, 02:29:11 PM »
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In an earlier post Bruce mentioned of the possible disagreement (not sure of term used) between Himms (Portland field office?) and the Seattle office or Seattle agents? Could anyone expound on this possibility?

People could, but they won't.

NORJAK was bigger than any individual personality in any office. It fell to Seattle to have jurisdiction. When the money was found the small office at Vancouver technically had jurisdiction, but no manpower. Portland and Seattle worked together to conduct an excavation looking for evidence. To this day I am not clear about what precise roles and responsibilities were divided between the Portland and Seattle offices. People from both offices were giving interviews and handled different aspects of the Ingram money situation.

The 'authors of disharmony, corruption, and incompetence' within NORJAK are Galen Cook and Bruce Smith. Their claims not only name Himmelsbach but others, as well as the FBI generally. Cook's claims intersect with his personal relationship with Tosaw and Curtis Eng over time. Smith's claims seem to be of a more global nature without any specific example of how and when NORJAK was affected specifically either by some feud going on between Himmelsbach and Seattle, or how and when shoddy FBI lab and evidence work affected NORJAK specifically, if it did. To my knowledge, none of Cook's and Smith's commentary has brought forth any new actual 'evidence' or 'clarification' in the Cooper case, nor has it lead to Cooper himself, whomever he (or she?) was.

FLYJAK operates in a similar atmosphere of 'suspicion'  alleging ties between his suspect and Tina Mucklow  going clear back to when Mucklow was in highschool!

People have alleged that Tina Mucklow entering a convent somewhere close to Vancouver Lake and the Fazio property must have some relationship to Cooper money being found at Tina Bar in 1980!

There is no end to conspiracy theories and the people who make them in the Cooper hijacking affair.  Different people apply the tools at their disposal to the hijacking.  ;)
« Last Edit: October 27, 2019, 02:50:15 PM by georger »
 
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Offline haggarknew

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6439 on: October 27, 2019, 06:34:38 PM »
I personally don't see the signs of alleged corruption. Incompetence maybe (lost evidence). As far as disharmony, I have no clue? Do you think think these accusations might be based on some of the "folk lore" surrounding the case? Hager discussed some of the lore (rumors). Although they made for some interesting conversation, I would have serious reservations about airing them in print on this forum. Maybe we can discuss them in a different venue some day. At this point I doubt they have any relevance to any investigation of db. (the citizen sleuths may disagree,Tom K. in particular, due to his interest in the makeup found on the tie)         As far as any alleged alliance between Tina and db, I have serious doubts. Is it accusations like this that keep Tina and others from being more open about discussing the case? I am not trying to pile on Flyjack, I actually respect his work. He seems to be an excellent researcher. I don't necessarily agree with him on a lot of things but I do respect his opinion.
 
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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6440 on: October 28, 2019, 02:26:54 PM »
Petey

Is Sheridan okay? I see that a mandatory evac notice has been issued for his area around Santa Rosa due to the Kincaid wildfire.
 

Offline 377

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6441 on: October 29, 2019, 06:23:44 PM »
He hasn't answered my inquiries. He's been shunning me for a while but I'd still help him out in any way I could.

377
 

Offline 377

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6442 on: October 29, 2019, 06:41:40 PM »
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I personally don't see the signs of alleged corruption. Incompetence maybe (lost evidence). As far as disharmony, I have no clue? Do you think think these accusations might be based on some of the "folk lore" surrounding the case? Hager discussed some of the lore (rumors). Although they made for some interesting conversation, I would have serious reservations about airing them in print on this forum. Maybe we can discuss them in a different venue some day. At this point I doubt they have any relevance to any investigation of db. (the citizen sleuths may disagree,Tom K. in particular, due to his interest in the makeup found on the tie)         As far as any alleged alliance between Tina and db, I have serious doubts. Is it accusations like this that keep Tina and others from being more open about discussing the case? I am not trying to pile on Flyjack, I actually respect his work. He seems to be an excellent researcher. I don't necessarily agree with him on a lot of things but I do respect his opinion.

I see plenty of FBI mistakes but no signs of corruption. It's easy to focus on their mistakes and ignore all the things they did right. They were looking in a lot of the right places. Their failure to scrutinize the tie is puzzling. TK showed the magnitude of that error. Sure, DNA forensics were in their infancy, but the exotic materials could have narrowed the search and were missed entirely. 

The (alleged) loss of the cig butts could, however, be fatal to a future prosecution. Having dealt with the FBI, I find it VERY hard to believe that they would be "lost". The agents get a lot of training in evidence preservation and chain of custody protocols. They seemed very competent in this area in my dealings with them. As a defense lawyer, you are always looking for screwups in evidence handling and preservation that can supply grounds for dismissal. Local cops screwed up occasionally but I never saw the FBI do it. The FBI had a big scandal with shoddy and even falsified lab work but this had nothing to do with local agent evidence handling or preservation practices.

377

 
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Offline georger

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6443 on: October 30, 2019, 12:13:00 AM »
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I personally don't see the signs of alleged corruption. Incompetence maybe (lost evidence). As far as disharmony, I have no clue? Do you think think these accusations might be based on some of the "folk lore" surrounding the case? Hager discussed some of the lore (rumors). Although they made for some interesting conversation, I would have serious reservations about airing them in print on this forum. Maybe we can discuss them in a different venue some day. At this point I doubt they have any relevance to any investigation of db. (the citizen sleuths may disagree,Tom K. in particular, due to his interest in the makeup found on the tie)         As far as any alleged alliance between Tina and db, I have serious doubts. Is it accusations like this that keep Tina and others from being more open about discussing the case? I am not trying to pile on Flyjack, I actually respect his work. He seems to be an excellent researcher. I don't necessarily agree with him on a lot of things but I do respect his opinion.

I see plenty of FBI mistakes but no signs of corruption. It's easy to focus on their mistakes and ignore all the things they did right. They were looking in a lot of the right places. Their failure to scrutinize the tie is puzzling. TK showed the magnitude of that error. Sure, DNA forensics were in their infancy, but the exotic materials could have narrowed the search and were missed entirely. 

The (alleged) loss of the cig butts could, however, be fatal to a future prosecution. Having dealt with the FBI, I find it VERY hard to believe that they would be "lost". The agents get a lot of training in evidence preservation and chain of custody protocols. They seemed very competent in this area in my dealings with them. As a defense lawyer, you are always looking for screwups in evidence handling and preservation that can supply grounds for dismissal. Local cops screwed up occasionally but I never saw the FBI do it. The FBI had a big scandal with shoddy and even falsified lab work but this had nothing to do with local agent evidence handling or preservation practices.

377

DNA analysis was in its infancy in 1971 compared to today, but serological and diagnostic examination of blood serum, saliva, sweat, and other biological materials especially with regard to typing, pathogens, or introduced substances, was standard practice in 1971. Results would have been part of Cooper's profile along with his prints.

Lab results would have been issued to anyone requesting lab analysis, and that paper trail would be completely separate (independent) of any evidence storage issues. As you note, 377, there were protocols for all of these matters which include filing and searching paper work documentation.     

$  Is there a 302 which documents lab testing being done on the cigarette butts? It is conceivable that the butts were put into storage somewhere but never actually tested, unless somebody at some office ordered testing. The butts could have been transferred several times before finally winding up in Washington to be stored with other Cooper evidence there - but there would be paper work for each transfer. And somebody would have been able to call up and follow the paper trail; I have always assumed Carr was able to do find and follow paper trails into the pre- digital era? Paperwork and record trails are a specialty all of its own in most large organizations including the FBI.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2019, 12:34:09 AM by georger »
 
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Offline haggarknew

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6444 on: October 30, 2019, 07:17:37 AM »
I think I saw a pic of the cig butts in a plastic bag (evidence bag?) . Are there other pics of the butts? I would like to see the filter end of the cigs. Maybe we could determine how hard he was pulling (inhaling) on them by the nicotine stain? Might this possibly give us an idea of his stress level? As a former smoker I know I would pull on a cig harder when I was under a lot of stress. This would leave a darker nicotine stain in the filter than it normally would. I know this sounds a little (or a lot) farfetched. Just a thought.
 

Offline 377

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6445 on: October 30, 2019, 02:33:49 PM »
Good points Georger. Chain of custody protocol calls for documentation of each and every move. You can't even view much less handle evidence in FBI custody without paperwork being filled out. 

377
« Last Edit: October 30, 2019, 02:39:05 PM by 377 »
 

Offline georger

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6446 on: October 30, 2019, 11:21:11 PM »
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Good points Georger. Chain of custody protocol calls for documentation of each and every move. You can't even view much less handle evidence in FBI custody without paperwork being filled out. 

377

If you were a recycler you could retire on the paper the FBI has!  There is a program for digitalising everything - wonder where that is?  ;) But just navigating the paper trails is a real issue. Carr mentioned this when he was here . . .
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6447 on: October 31, 2019, 01:20:25 AM »
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Good points Georger. Chain of custody protocol calls for documentation of each and every move. You can't even view much less handle evidence in FBI custody without paperwork being filled out. 

377

If you were a recycler you could retire on the paper the FBI has!  There is a program for digitalising everything - wonder where that is?  ;) But just navigating the paper trails is a real issue. Carr mentioned this when he was here . . .

You obviously don't know that recycling has taken a tremendous hit in the trade war.  China has hit us where it hurts and apparently stopped buying American trash.
 

Offline georger

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6448 on: October 31, 2019, 03:00:18 PM »
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Good points Georger. Chain of custody protocol calls for documentation of each and every move. You can't even view much less handle evidence in FBI custody without paperwork being filled out. 

377

If you were a recycler you could retire on the paper the FBI has!  There is a program for digitalising everything - wonder where that is?  ;) But just navigating the paper trails is a real issue. Carr mentioned this when he was here . . .

You obviously don't know that recycling has taken a tremendous hit in the trade war.  China has hit us where it hurts and apparently stopped buying American trash.

Some engineers and gamers, generate a lot of garbage.

If they know the difference they don;t care! They require that somebody else have to shovel their crap away and clear a path the world can survive in.

* In one extreme case we have a person who has made up words for "money" claiming these are/were official banking terms which .... (get this!) . . . ever'one involved in NORJAK understood and were using, by common agreement.

He says his suspect and Tina met in a janitor closet in Tina's high school in Maryland. Tina liked older men who were janitors! Tina formed a conspiracy with her janitor lover . . . . . and the COW FLEW OVER THE MOON! Subscribe to that gamer's game today before the price increases 4 fold.     :rofl:   Forthcoming issues will claim that 305 never flew beyond Portland, but actually landed in some guy's back yard at Portland, then another 727 secretly launched from Idaho and landed at Reno later, all on schedule with the same crew! It's all possible because space and time are distorted in the cabin's of aircraft. The proof is in the termite holes in the Ingram money!  O0
« Last Edit: October 31, 2019, 04:14:39 PM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #6449 on: October 31, 2019, 11:07:13 PM »
Update on Road Tour

In preparation for leading the Cooper Con 2019 Road Tour, I went scouting through Cooper Country over the past two days, starting with having a late lunch with Kermit at La Casa Tapatia in Woodland on Wednesday. Instead of camping in a cozy cabin at Battleground Lake State Park for 62 bucks and braving the cold (23 degrees in some spots), I opted for a 62-dollar room at Rodeway Inn in Vancouver and watched the World Series - Whew. Go Nats. It almost felt like a Yankees win.

Today, I was back on the road and discovered the real Orchards, WA. Sure looks different than 48 years ago, as the town has joined the Portland-Vancouver metroplex. Regardless, we'll be starting the Road Tour at Shari's restaurant in Orchards, located in the Fred Meyer shopping mall on 76th Ave and SR 503/500. 1-pm, I figure.

Then it's off to Hockinson, WA, which used to be loaded with dairy farms in 1971, run by a community of Finnish farmers. Currently, some agricultural work still continues. But not only is Hockinson flat, it's rapidly becoming a "Hamptons-kind of place" for Vancouver's rich folks. My waitress at Shari's was born and raised in Hockinson, but can't afford to live there any more!

A few things about Hockinson. NO ONE knew that the FBI had begun considering it to be DBC's new LZ after they abandoned Amboy in 1975.

Secondly, there isn't a single tavern in Hockinson! Nor a Starbucks! Where is an intrepid investigative journalist supposed to go? Well, I bought an ice cream cone at the Hockinson Market and talked to "Jim," who was wearing a Star Trek costume - it was Halloween - then went next door to the District Offices of the Hockinson School District. Joe the custodian is a life-long resident and I hope to be able to talk with him soon. I may also give a talk to the Hockinson High School History Club before the Cooper Con 2019.

Got really lost trying to find the Battleground Lake State Park, so I gave up and rejoined SR 503 on the way to Amboy. Autumn leaves are turning, and the drive was beautiful. Folks will have a delightful ride at Cooper Con if the weather is half-decent.

Ironically, the clear blue skies over Amboy turned gray as the smoke from 22 new wildfires in Oregon descended upon us. The smarty pants guys at the Oregon Department of Natural Renounces thought this week would be a good time for controlled burns in the Willamette Valley, but the weather that is making California a living hell is upon Oregon as well, and the DNR lost control of almost two dozen of its fires. Ug.

In Amboy, Nick's is still pouring beer, but the trees along Cedar Creek Rd are being harvested. Stumptown has arrived. Hmmmm....

I also drove the long way to Lake Merwin - east out of Amboy on 503 through the Yale Valley. Beautiful, but 23 miles of winding roads was tough. But 30 minutes later I got some great views of Lake Merwin and the dam.

The Ariel Tavern is in very sad shape. Looks boarded-up. Signage is down or obscured. Restrooms are still open at the Merwin Dam Rec area, though. Thank Gawd.

Lastly, La Casa Tapatia does make great Mexican food. Further, I've invited the folks at the Lewis River Bed and Breakfast to invite us to their place up the road for a free glass of wine so that the denizens of Cooper World can begin to get to know these people and a truly wonderful B&B in the heart of Cooper Country. If they agree, and I hope they do, I'll let y'all know.

See y'all in Vancouver, Nov 22-24.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2019, 11:13:05 PM by Bruce A. Smith »