Author Topic: New Forum & News Updates  (Read 611803 times)

Offline georger

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #5880 on: February 19, 2019, 11:34:21 PM »
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Georger wrote:  "377 has never gone commercial so far as I know."

That's true Georger, but I have no beef with those who do try to make a profit out of Norjack as long as they are truthful and ethical.

I try to help everyone who is doing serious research on the case even if I think they are misguided as to their choice of suspect.  I loaned parachutes to the History Channel free, they only reimbursed me for shipping. I have spent a lot of time with various Cooper sleuths answering technical questions about the rigs and making a passenger jet jump. Even though I do not agree that Walter Reca was DBC, I have offered to help the Reca folks with technical questions. I have never requested compensation.

EU spent a lot of money on the 2018 Portland CooperCon and made it 100% free for attendees. I don't have a beef with him charging for his report. I know he has given copies away. His balance sheet on Cooper matters has to show a big loss so far.

I am so disappointed that Sheridan killed the book publication that Snow was helping him with. Snow put in considerable effort and expense trying to help Sheridan clean up the manuscript. It was in dire need of editing if it was to have any hope of appealing to mainstream readers (those other than Cooperites). Snow sought nothing in return.

TK and his crew have done a lot of work for free. Their discovery of exotic materials on the tie was very significant and much more useful than speculating on who Cooper might be based on hunches and circumstantial evidence.

We have a good group of people here. No Cooperite is less good in my view just because he or she tries to make a profit.

377

Dont forget Tom Kaye and his team. His costs have been significant. So many people have made contributions in time and actual costs. Let's not forget Shutter! We are very lucky to have these resources. I fully recognize that.
 

Offline 377

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #5881 on: February 20, 2019, 06:48:02 AM »
TK and team were credited. Look again.

Blevins and his suspect are unpopular here but Blevins has done a lot and spent a lot to keep the Cooper legend alive. So has Galen Cook. If Blevins movie deals pan out and prove popular public interest in Cooper will soar.

Jo deserves mention too. She’s always got some journalist or filmmaker believing she indeed is Mrs. Cooper.

And I was remiss not to mention our patient host Shutter who pays for and moderates this zoo cage. I’d be OK with Shutter in the left seat of a real 727 too, as long as the Cooper Vane was disabled and I had my NB8 rig with me 😉.

There are others too. Certainly Sluggo must be given credit. Safecrackin PLF  Larry Carr too.

And HUGE thanks to Tom Colbert. His FOIA litigation has been tenacious, awesome and no doubt expensive. He really is all in on Rackstraw and that prolonged laser focus has done a lot to keep the Cooper story alive. His book The Last Master Outlaw is highly recommended and could make a really good movie. It has a huge number of stellar reviews on Amazon.

Bruce has worked hard for years and his book is one of the rare commercial successes to come out of the Vortex. The Mountain News articles on Cooper are a great asset. His investigation of the Cooper chutes moved us forward a lot.

377


« Last Edit: February 20, 2019, 06:56:29 AM by 377 »
 

Offline EU

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #5882 on: February 20, 2019, 10:28:18 AM »
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TK and team were credited. Look again.

Blevins and his suspect are unpopular here but Blevins has done a lot and spent a lot to keep the Cooper legend alive. So has Galen Cook. If Blevins movie deals pan out and prove popular public interest in Cooper will soar.

Jo deserves mention too. She’s always got some journalist or filmmaker believing she indeed is Mrs. Cooper.

And I was remiss not to mention our patient host Shutter who pays for and moderates this zoo cage. I’d be OK with Shutter in the left seat of a real 727 too, as long as the Cooper Vane was disabled and I had my NB8 rig with me 😉.

There are others too. Certainly Sluggo must be given credit. Safecrackin PLF  Larry Carr too.

And HUGE thanks to Tom Colbert. His FOIA litigation has been tenacious, awesome and no doubt expensive. He really is all in on Rackstraw and that prolonged laser focus has done a lot to keep the Cooper story alive. His book The Last Master Outlaw is highly recommended and could make a really good movie. It has a huge number of stellar reviews on Amazon.

Bruce has worked hard for years and his book is one of the rare commercial successes to come out of the Vortex. The Mountain News articles on Cooper are a great asset. His investigation of the Cooper chutes moved us forward a lot.

377

It really is remarkable how many people have contributed to the "private" NORJAK investigation, not to mention the good many FBI officials and others who have contributed to the "official" NORJAK investigation.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline georger

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #5883 on: February 20, 2019, 02:10:39 PM »
FBI FOIA Files Update - new files now available:

Latest FBI FOIA pdf now available [Part 34 of 34]   You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Download at pdf icon at bottom of window. Some 440 pages. All 34 parts now available at this Gov site. 

That is, in case there is confusion ... all previous NORJAK FOIA files released to date are now available at the gov url above = Tom Colbert stopped adding updates at his website.
 
« Last Edit: February 20, 2019, 05:43:37 PM by georger »
 

Offline 377

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #5884 on: February 20, 2019, 06:13:14 PM »
Pages 251 and 252 of the latest FOIA release give lots of Cossey supplied detail about Coopers rig. This report may have shown up in earlier releases. Cossey says green nylon NB 6, no D rings, with a white round 28ft canopy and white pilot chute. Main rig had a "specially fitted foam padded cushion". Chest reserve had a white dummy canopy, no pilot chute

Hair samples taken from Cooper's seat are mentioned here and there (see pages 104-105 eg). Wonder if FBI still has the hair samples?

377
« Last Edit: February 20, 2019, 06:32:49 PM by 377 »
 
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Offline georger

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #5885 on: February 20, 2019, 11:44:21 PM »
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Pages 251 and 252 of the latest FOIA release give lots of Cossey supplied detail about Coopers rig. This report may have shown up in earlier releases. Cossey says green nylon NB 6, no D rings, with a white round 28ft canopy and white pilot chute. Main rig had a "specially fitted foam padded cushion". Chest reserve had a white dummy canopy, no pilot chute

Hair samples taken from Cooper's seat are mentioned here and there (see pages 104-105 eg). Wonder if FBI still has the hair samples?

377

hair must have the follicle to get dna ...
« Last Edit: February 20, 2019, 11:46:30 PM by georger »
 

Offline Robertrand

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #5886 on: February 21, 2019, 06:07:14 AM »
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Pages 251 and 252 of the latest FOIA release give lots of Cossey supplied detail about Coopers rig. This report may have shown up in earlier releases. Cossey says green nylon NB 6, no D rings, with a white round 28ft canopy and white pilot chute. Main rig had a "specially fitted foam padded cushion". Chest reserve had a white dummy canopy, no pilot chute

Hair samples taken from Cooper's seat are mentioned here and there (see pages 104-105 eg). Wonder if FBI still has the hair samples?

377

I'm curious about the hair sample as well. It's described as a glass slide containing a brown hair. On page 186 the FBI rules out a suspect by microscopically comparing hair clippings. Then a memo from the FBI Director on page 187, dated 4/19/74 states...

 "It should be noted that the captioned crime was committed on November 24, 1971. Due to the amount of time that has passed since this date, the value of any further hair comparisons with the Q2 head hair clipping is very limited."

How quickly does head hair deteriorate and could it have been preserved?
 

Offline georger

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #5887 on: February 21, 2019, 03:58:23 PM »
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Pages 251 and 252 of the latest FOIA release give lots of Cossey supplied detail about Coopers rig. This report may have shown up in earlier releases. Cossey says green nylon NB 6, no D rings, with a white round 28ft canopy and white pilot chute. Main rig had a "specially fitted foam padded cushion". Chest reserve had a white dummy canopy, no pilot chute

Hair samples taken from Cooper's seat are mentioned here and there (see pages 104-105 eg). Wonder if FBI still has the hair samples?

377

I'm curious about the hair sample as well. It's described as a glass slide containing a brown hair. On page 186 the FBI rules out a suspect by microscopically comparing hair clippings. Then a memo from the FBI Director on page 187, dated 4/19/74 states...

 "It should be noted that the captioned crime was committed on November 24, 1971. Due to the amount of time that has passed since this date, the value of any further hair comparisons with the Q2 head hair clipping is very limited."

How quickly does head hair deteriorate and could it have been preserved?

Since the hair was slide mounted it is no longer available for anything but color testing. Thats probably what this sample was being used for? Hair color depends on the ratio between two substances: Eumelanin and Pheomelanin.  That ratio changes with age. If the hair sample is dyed that introduces a further complication. Dye colors break down quickly over a matter of weeks/months. If Eumelanin breaks down over time for whatever reason, this leaves behind the red pigment, Pheomelanin. What once appeared as a brown sample, for instance, now takes on a reddish or even red tint making the sample unreliable.

Since this hair sample was slide mounted that probably means there was no follicle attached. So at the time in 1971-74 perhaps the only thing the sample was good for was color comparison testing.

Im unclear about why a slide-mounted hair would deteriorate so quickly since the specimen cant interact with air/oxygen and UV, but evidently the specimen degraded for some reason and is no longer seen as being viable (in Court)?. 
 
« Last Edit: February 21, 2019, 04:04:51 PM by georger »
 

Offline andrade1812

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #5888 on: February 21, 2019, 04:04:10 PM »
One of the forensic guys I talked to (forget the name, but I should still have the emails archived somewhere) mentioned a hair sample would be invaluable, in that new forensic techniques could be used to locate Cooper to a specific region, and even reflect his diet.
 

Offline georger

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #5889 on: February 21, 2019, 04:08:03 PM »
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One of the forensic guys I talked to (forget the name, but I should still have the emails archived somewhere) mentioned a hair sample would be invaluable, in that new forensic techniques could be used to locate Cooper to a specific region, and even reflect his diet.

Sure... if you have the vital areas of a hair specimen to test. Moreover this was 71-74 and those techniques barely existed even if you had the root and follicle of the hair. The fact this specimen was slide mounted probably means this is a piece of broken hair shaft... and nothing more? 

Slide mounting a hair is almost permanent! Whatever amount of the hair structure is there is no longer available for testing, period. How was this hair slide mounted, in what medium?

*See if you can get the FBI to release that slide mounted hair specimen to your expert for further testing! ??
« Last Edit: February 21, 2019, 04:17:36 PM by georger »
 

Offline andrade1812

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #5890 on: February 21, 2019, 04:26:30 PM »
Found the email, this was the article he sent me:

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Quote
Genetically variant peptides were also identified in hair shaft datasets from six archaeological skeletal remains (up to 260 years old). This study demonstrates that quantifiable measures of identity discrimination and biogeographic background can be obtained from detecting genetically variant peptides in hair shaft protein, including hair from bioarchaeological contexts.

He also mentioned this:

Quote
Lastly, there is an analytical method called stable isotope ratio mass spectrometry (IRMS). Its use on any hairs thought to have originated from Cooper could provide information as to where he might have lived in the past.

I forwarded all of this information to Tom Kaye about two years ago. It was definitely over my head.

I don't know the specifics of slide mounting, will that destroy all possibility of further analysis or testing?
« Last Edit: February 21, 2019, 04:28:47 PM by andrade1812 »
 

Offline georger

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #5891 on: February 21, 2019, 04:47:23 PM »
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Found the email, this was the article he sent me:

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Quote
Genetically variant peptides were also identified in hair shaft datasets from six archaeological skeletal remains (up to 260 years old). This study demonstrates that quantifiable measures of identity discrimination and biogeographic background can be obtained from detecting genetically variant peptides in hair shaft protein, including hair from bioarchaeological contexts.

He also mentioned this:

Quote
Lastly, there is an analytical method called stable isotope ratio mass spectrometry (IRMS). Its use on any hairs thought to have originated from Cooper could provide information as to where he might have lived in the past.

I forwarded all of this information to Tom Kaye about two years ago. It was definitely over my head.

I don't know the specifics of slide mounting, will that destroy all possibility of further analysis or testing?

Yes, it depends on how the fiber was mounted on a slide. My guess is the hair was just slapped on a slide with a cover glass applied with liquid balsam or some other adhesive (back in that era). Its less likely it was placed in a well slide with cover glass, because the key here is sharp clear imaging, which brings up a whole new matter... were any photos taken for future use? Photos are routinely taken in these matters even back in 71-74. That allows comparison work deep into the future no matter what happens to the specimen. So where are the lab photos? With photos it does not matter what happens to the original specimen.

My feeling is we dont have the full story. We have been there countless times ...  ;) 
 
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Offline fcastle866

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #5892 on: February 21, 2019, 09:09:52 PM »
Thanks for posting about the FBI Vault documents being available.  Those were actually a good read.  There are parts about the hair, number of suspects vetted/ruled out, part about the tie going from LA to another field office, a list of things to look for while vetting a Cooper suspect (grudge, parachute experience, etc.), even a section where the FBI directs agents to refer to the case as NORJAK.  It may not help the search, but it is interesting.  Anyone know how the FBI decides when and what to release, or is this all due to Colbert and team?
 
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Offline Robertrand

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #5893 on: February 22, 2019, 04:10:12 AM »
Just finished reading file #34 on the FBI website. It's a chore reading redacted documents but I did find some interesting tidbits.

Page 145 - The FBI's Investigative Steps to Process Norjack Suspects.

Page 186 - The FBI rules out a suspect using the hair slide.

Page 187 - FBI Director states further hair comparisons will be limited due to age of sample.

Page 318 - 7/9/74, Caller from Kelso, Washington advises that two years earlier they noticed the top of their tree had been knocked down. There was a "pillowcase" hanging from a branch and path leading down a hill.

Page 424/427 - 11/20/74, Caller reports the discovery of old $20 dollar bill by a hunter he met near the head of Cold Water Creek in Mt. St. Helens area. The area was never searched.

Page 440/441 - Sierra County Sheriffs in California admit to finding a parachute at an abandoned campsite and then disposing of it at the dump because the area was formally used for parachute training.

Has anyone found any other interesting nuggets?




 
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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #5894 on: March 02, 2019, 02:30:14 AM »
Minnow Productions

I was interviewed by the folks from Minnow today, in Eatonville. They don't want me to say too much about their Cooper project, but it is large and substantive. They've made multiple trip to Cooper Country, have talked to a lot of people, and are covering a lot of topics in depth. I loved working with them today, and I think they will make a worthy product.
 
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