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[Shutter]

I don't think the placard proves anything but where the plane was, or could of been. we don't know if it was at the very bottom, middle, or top, or if Cooper threw it and it went right out with a lucky frisbee toss? Cooper was on the plane at 8:05...the stairs didn't move until 8:10, but could of been on the stairs for a period of time..

the whole area was searched above the Lewis, and below...then you have issues of area's not properly searched due to heavy brush (thickets) even discussion on what side of the airways they were on.

The failure to get an accurate position makes things hard to pinpoint as we can see reading the files and how they changed the search area's after recalculating the path and timing. if you are implying Cooper survived, then it doesn't matter where he jumped. you could say he jumped at 9:47....one document states to look as far as the Columbia, so I guess I could take this and run? it's possible, but not enough proof...

two separate calculations were done, one by NWA, and the other was the Air Force. both were almost exact in plotting the possible jump time.

then we have to big oscillation vs pressure bump debate...

[georger]

I don't think the placard proves anything but where the plane was, or could of been. we don't know if it was at the very bottom, middle, or top, or if Cooper threw it and it went right out with a lucky frisbee toss? Cooper was on the plane at 8:05...the stairs didn't move until 8:10, but could of been on the stairs for a period of time..

the whole area was searched above the Lewis, and below...then you have issues of area's not properly searched due to heavy brush (thickets) even discussion on what side of the airways they were on.

The failure to get an accurate position makes things hard to pinpoint as we can see reading the files and how they changed the search area's after recalculating the path and timing. if you are implying Cooper survived, then it doesn't matter where he jumped. you could say he jumped at 9:47....one document states to look as far as the Columbia, so I guess I could take this and run? it's possible, but not enough proof...

two separate calculations were done, one by NWA, and the other was the Air Force. both were almost exact in plotting the possible jump time.

then we have to big oscillation vs pressure bump debate...

The placard has no memory or a clock with respect to the bump. (any more than the wieners at Aldis Foods did)

The CVR, FDR, and money do. The radar tapes might. Soderlind used what was available. Because:

quote: "Rataczak added that at no time did he have any direct contact with or talk to or observe the hijacker, so could furnish nothing to the physical description.

Anderson added that no member of the crew went back to check on the presence of the hijacker immediately following the ‘oscillations’ the crew encountered. When the subject let hostess Mucklow go to the cockpit she locked the door behind her.

Anderson added, it had not occurred to them at the time to pinpoint their exact location at the time of the oscillation …  "

because, apparently while they did think oscillations meant Cooper was playing with the stairs, or on the stairs, none of the crew immediately associated the pressure spike with a jump. (weight off the stairs). None of the crew were experienced sky divers. But, the lights went on in other people's minds immediately upon hearing of this, especially at Minneapolis.

I seriously doubt Solderlind would have wasted his time thinking about the placard even if he had known about it.

[MeyerLouie]

Georger, you (and R99) correct Smith pretty much on a daily basis, you catch him in the act of not presenting the facts, or incorrectly representing the facts or a situation.  Smith still does not deem it necessary to check his facts and story before spouting off on the forum.  Good journalists I know would never think of doing such a thing.  As far as I can see, Smith, like Blevins, has created his own tangled web of zero credibility.   Smith won't even go back and read his own posts, and if he does, he misquotes or misrepresents himself!  How can that be?? This guy claims he is credible, but he proves pretty much on a daily basis that he is not.  Unbelievable!

Meyer

Again, Meyer, you fail to cite specific instances of error or mis-statement. Tsk, tsk.

Georger and R99 have cited several instances of error.  I don't deem it necessary to repeat their observations.  It's there, all you have to do is read their posts, their observations.  They correct your mis-statements pretty much on a daily basis.  What frickin' more evidence do you need, Mr. Zero Credibility? 
Meyer

[Bruce A. Smith]

Georger and R99 have cited several instances of error.  I don't deem it necessary to repeat their observations.  It's there, all you have to do is read their posts, their observations.  They correct your mis-statements pretty much on a daily basis.  What frickin' more evidence do you need, Mr. Zero Credibility? 
Meyer

It's an interesting triumvirate: Georger, R99, and Meyer. Many accusations and plenty of vague statements of mockery and character assassination.

I wonder what the motivation is? A self-styled Truth Squad? Or a hit team for folks who don't like what I say or how I say it? Or just a bunch of guys who always feel like they're the smartest guys in the room?

Or jealousy?

Hmmm. Time will tell, I suppose.

[FLYJACK]

I don't think the placard proves anything but where the plane was, or could of been. we don't know if it was at the very bottom, middle, or top, or if Cooper threw it and it went right out with a lucky frisbee toss? Cooper was on the plane at 8:05...the stairs didn't move until 8:10, but could of been on the stairs for a period of time..

the whole area was searched above the Lewis, and below...then you have issues of area's not properly searched due to heavy brush (thickets) even discussion on what side of the airways they were on.

The failure to get an accurate position makes things hard to pinpoint as we can see reading the files and how they changed the search area's after recalculating the path and timing. if you are implying Cooper survived, then it doesn't matter where he jumped. you could say he jumped at 9:47....one document states to look as far as the Columbia, so I guess I could take this and run? it's possible, but not enough proof...

two separate calculations were done, one by NWA, and the other was the Air Force. both were almost exact in plotting the possible jump time.

then we have to big oscillation vs pressure bump debate...

Yes, the placard tells us where the plane was when it exited, (around 8:05). But it reveals more, Cooper struggled with the Airstairs around 7:42, that is most likely the time he detached the emergency release door/placard. That means the Placard remained loose on the stairway for some time, up to 23 minutes. An event must have caused it to exit the plane after a significant amount of time, either he picked it up after it sat there for a while and threw it out the end with stairs at 20 degrees or Cooper descended the Airstairs causing it to fall out.

If a loose Placard would instantly fall out with the Airstairs at 20 Degrees, you'd expect its location to have been much further North on the flightpath. Given its location and events, it is most likely the loose Placard fell out when Cooper descended the Airstairs and its location doesn't support an 8:10 Airstair descent. It supports the 8:05 time frame.


I always thought that Cooper dying in the jump was a higher probability, this theory makes the most sense and pulls together all the pieces. It puts his LZ near the west end of Lake Merwin. That puts a water path to TBAR in play. If he landed in Lake Merwin and sat on the bottom in a deep cold water environment for eight years before some money came loose and floated down the Lewis River then via tide up stream 15 km to TBAR..

He is probably still lying at the bottom of the west end of Lake Merwin snagged on a dead tree.

[Shutter]

Again, Cooper never went on the stairs prior to the time they stated the oscillation..they would of known every single time those stairs went down...

[FLYJACK]

Again, Cooper never went on the stairs prior to the time they stated the oscillation..they would of known every single time those stairs went down...

That is an opinion.

The 8:10 oscillations may have been Cooper leaving.

Lake Merwin depth just East of the dam is 180 ft.  The deepest in the Lake.

click for bigger..

[andrade1812]

Lake Merwin was searched with a submarine, no evidence of Cooper was found.

[377]

Visual search with a sub could EASILY miss something if visibility was low. A GPS indexed side scan sonar survey from the surface with a towed transducer would be a good way to search. Look at the resolution that is possible (see drowning victim image) : You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

377

[georger]

Visual search with a sub could EASILY miss something if visibility was low. A GPS indexed side scan sonar survey from the surface with a towed transducer would be a good way to search. Look at the resolution that is possible (see drowning victim image) : You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

377

Divers have searched Merwin Lake almost continuously since 1972. Locals are aware of that fact. Nothing ever found. Saying Merwin is connected to Tina Bar by water is like saying Texas is connected to Tina Bar by water.

I tend to believe if Soderlind had known about the placard and its location that data would have been considered alongside FDR/CVR and radar data but the position of the placard would not have been a crucial clue for Soderlind and his team to when and where Cooper bailed. It is very clear from the info we have that defining a search area went through several iterations (as Shutter is pointing out from FBI docs). Those changes were probably because of corrections being entered into the analysis as the Soderlind team struggled to read, correct, and associate the various data streams looking for the place and time of the pressure spike vs oscillations.

Clarifying oscillations vs bump was central to Ckret coming to DZ. I believe Ckret's interest in this was based on his prior reading of FBI docs related to the Soderlind analysis. We have not seen much of that reading material yet. But, Shutter's notice of the doc noting a shift in the search area (moving north) reflects what Soderlind and his team were doing behind the scene, ie. making corrections (perhaps in the time scale) from the FDR record they were trying to read.

Time was not recorded on these old foil type FDR's with a high degree of accuracy. What was the natural margin of error in the data Soderlind had to cross correlate? 1%? .5%? 10%? Whatever the margin of error was it is reflected in these NWA search maps! The very nature of these maps (they are probability charts) testifies to the amount of error Solderind was facing in the data.

A modern analysis today might shrink that margin of error, considerably! But, people would have to have the FDR/CVR and radar tape to do this!

And I continually come back to Anderson's quote: "Anderson added, it had not occurred to them at the time to pinpoint their exact location at the time of the oscillation … ". Anderson was saying the same thing in 2009 when we interviewed him after bypassing the Cook-Smith regime. And so was BR saying the same thing when he was interviewed by ________________.     

[FLYJACK]

Visual search with a sub could EASILY miss something if visibility was low. A GPS indexed side scan sonar survey from the surface with a towed transducer would be a good way to search. Look at the resolution that is possible (see drowning victim image) : You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

377

yes, searching an underwater forest of dead trees and branches would be a challenge even with today's tech

[georger]

Visual search with a sub could EASILY miss something if visibility was low. A GPS indexed side scan sonar survey from the surface with a towed transducer would be a good way to search. Look at the resolution that is possible (see drowning victim image) : You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

377

yes, searching an underwater forest of dead trees and branches would be a challenge even with today's tech

Are you totally unaware that locals/others have searched Merwin Lake for Cooper multiple times over the years? A cadaver dog search was even conducted by one local.

You need to start working with modern data vs robo posting dead-certain guesswork.    Attitude is not proof.

[FLYJACK]

Visual search with a sub could EASILY miss something if visibility was low. A GPS indexed side scan sonar survey from the surface with a towed transducer would be a good way to search. Look at the resolution that is possible (see drowning victim image) : You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

377

yes, searching an underwater forest of dead trees and branches would be a challenge even with today's tech

Are you totally unaware that locals/others have searched Merwin Lake for Cooper multiple times over the years? A cadaver dog search was even conducted by one local.

You need to start working with modern data vs robo posting dead-certain guesswork.    Attitude is not proof.

Really, 180 ft depths have been completely searched and ruled out.

[georger]

Visual search with a sub could EASILY miss something if visibility was low. A GPS indexed side scan sonar survey from the surface with a towed transducer would be a good way to search. Look at the resolution that is possible (see drowning victim image) : You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

377

yes, searching an underwater forest of dead trees and branches would be a challenge even with today's tech

Are you totally unaware that locals/others have searched Merwin Lake for Cooper multiple times over the years? A cadaver dog search was even conducted by one local.

You need to start working with modern data vs robo posting dead-certain guesswork.    Attitude is not proof.

Really, 180 ft depths have been completely searched and ruled out.

I dont know - have they! ? 

Have the caverns underneath the Vatican been searched? 

And I continually come back to Anderson's quote: "Anderson added, it had not occurred to them at the time to pinpoint their exact location at the time of the oscillation … ". Anderson was saying the same thing in 2009 when we interviewed him after bypassing the Cook-Smith regime. And so was BR saying the same thing when he was interviewed by ________________.     

Cooper bailed AFTER the oscillations began. Probably coterminous with the BUMP.

The north pole is connected to Tina Bar by water.

[Bruce A. Smith]

... It puts his LZ near the west end of Lake Merwin. That puts a water path to TBAR in play. If he landed in Lake Merwin and sat on the bottom in a deep cold water environment for eight years before some money came loose and floated down the Lewis River then via tide up stream 15 km to TBAR..

Ah, the Propeller Theory strikes again!

When I was at T-Bar in 2011, I was very impressed with the speed of the river current. 4-5 knots I should say. It really pulled me along when I went swimmin' (it was 105 degrees!)

Thus, it is hard for me to believe in a tidal effect 60 miles inland from the ocean, despite what Al Fazio says about tides at T-Bar. As for pushin' a  bunch of money upstream for six miles, well as we say in Flatbush: forgetaboutit!