Author Topic: New Forum & News Updates  (Read 1828716 times)

georger

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4065 on: December 05, 2017, 01:47:40 PM »
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The Airstairs…  Operational note.

According to FBI docs, Cooper was shown by Tina how to operate the Airstairs via main panel.

The B727 Airstairs are operated by opening a hinged panel and using a lever, that lever has a button on top that must be pressed. Cooper’s first attempt to lower the Airstairs failed. (Perhaps it was too dark to see the release button on top of the lever).

The normal operation via the main control lowers the stairs first by gravity and via hydraulic assist at mid point. They normally lock in position at the top and bottom.

The secondary “Emergency Release” is a small door next to the main panel with finger holes to pull panel and detach completely. That small door, had the placard attached by rivets/screws. The emergency release is a pull which shears the locks and drops the Airstairs via gravity.

The “emergency” placard was found detached from the emergency door, that small (plastic) emergency door may still be out there near the Placard location.

The Airstair red light indicator came on in the cockpit, but it ONLY indicates that the Airstairs are NOT LOCKED in UP or DOWN position. (in 727 manual)

An amber light indicates that Stairs are NOT UP and NOT LOCKED. (in 727 manual) (I haven't found an Amber light mentioned)

Green Light indicates DOWN and LOCKED. (in 727 manual)


The emergency release only releases the UP position locks, meant to be used on the ground it relies on gravity to drop the Airstairs.
At speed a gravity drop may not have opened the Airstairs much and it would have been a tight and violent environment for Mr....


To clarify, the main control lever unlocks, free fall and hydraulic assists. The emergency release only unlocks and free fall.


It is not clear if Cooper eventually got the main control working or just the Emergency release but the Emergency door with that Placard was removed.

The FBI may be holding the details about the hijacker's Airstair use from the public as only the hijacker would have that knowledge.



Take Away..

Cooper did not have experience with B727 Airstair operation.

The “emergency” placard find and the the cockpit Airstairs light that lit red ONLY (indicating UNLOCK) suggests that the Emergency Airstair release was deployed and not the main control. A red and amber light indicates main control use.

If so, the stairs would have free fallen without hydraulic assist to the point which the airflow at speed held them up. In this situation, the opening at the end of the Airstairs would have been small and the environment violent navigating to the end.


The found position of the Placard indicates the point at which Cooper accessed that detachable “Emergency Release” door (Red Light in cockpit). From there a potential LZ can be constructed working South.


What is a reasonable timeframe between using the emergency release and exiting the plane.

From ATC Timetable:

19:42 PST 7:42   Flt 305 reports “14 NM out of SEA on Victor-23. Cooper is trying to get the door down, Stew is with us, he cannot get the stairs down. We now have an aft stair light on.  [Likely time of placard loss ??]

19:44 PST 7:44   Flt 305 advises they will hold at 7,000 ft. We have the back steps down now and it looks like we aren’t going to be able to climb anymore.

19:45 PST 7:45   Flt 305 reports 19 NM DME out of SEA at 7,000 ft. No comm.. with Cooper but have an aft stair light.

20:05 PST 8:05   Pilot reports that he has tried twice to contact Cooper unsuccessfully, then he came on the PA system and said everything is OK.

20:12 PST 8:12  Flt 305 advises they are getting some oscillations in the cabin, Cooper must be doing something with the stairs.


« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 01:50:24 PM by georger »
 

georger

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4066 on: December 05, 2017, 01:53:27 PM »
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From Marty:

... A number of times I've seen interviews with Rataczak where he describes the negotiations with Cooper and it's Rat giving the actual settings "ask him what flap settings? Fifteen degrees? Thirty?" or something along those lines, and Cooper picked the reasonable-sounding number...


That's not what Rataczak told me. His words were: "When Cooper told me to set the flaps at fifteen, I knew he knew something about  airplanes. The 727 is the only Boeing product that has a predent setting of fifteen degrees." Or words to that effect.

I've watched the entire Rataczak DVD and all his interviews I could find, and did not find the exchange I was thinking of, now I'm worried I'm remembering a reenactment instead. Sorry. I'll keep looking just to make sure.

R testified he never talked to or had any direct contact with Cooper. Anderson testified it was him handling all calls from and to the back and the person who talked to Cooper at 8:05. That is on record.  [I dont give a flying F what Bruce says R told him!] There is no evidence R had an actual discussion with Cooper personally about flap settings or anything else@!

Duties were being performed under FAA Emergency protocols. Each crew member doing their assigned jobs. R's job was to fly the plane not jabber with Cooper or the back!   

Scott was the Senior Officer not Rataczak! If anybody is going to be talking to the back/Cooper it is Scott or Anderson who is running the board.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 02:03:08 PM by georger »
 

FLYJACK

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4067 on: December 05, 2017, 02:08:00 PM »
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The Airstairs…  Operational note.

According to FBI docs, Cooper was shown by Tina how to operate the Airstairs via main panel.

The B727 Airstairs are operated by opening a hinged panel and using a lever, that lever has a button on top that must be pressed. Cooper’s first attempt to lower the Airstairs failed. (Perhaps it was too dark to see the release button on top of the lever).

The normal operation via the main control lowers the stairs first by gravity and via hydraulic assist at mid point. They normally lock in position at the top and bottom.

The secondary “Emergency Release” is a small door next to the main panel with finger holes to pull panel and detach completely. That small door, had the placard attached by rivets/screws. The emergency release is a pull which shears the locks and drops the Airstairs via gravity.

The “emergency” placard was found detached from the emergency door, that small (plastic) emergency door may still be out there near the Placard location.

The Airstair red light indicator came on in the cockpit, but it ONLY indicates that the Airstairs are NOT LOCKED in UP or DOWN position. (in 727 manual)

An amber light indicates that Stairs are NOT UP and NOT LOCKED. (in 727 manual) (I haven't found an Amber light mentioned)

Green Light indicates DOWN and LOCKED. (in 727 manual)


The emergency release only releases the UP position locks, meant to be used on the ground it relies on gravity to drop the Airstairs.
At speed a gravity drop may not have opened the Airstairs much and it would have been a tight and violent environment for Mr....


To clarify, the main control lever unlocks, free fall and hydraulic assists. The emergency release only unlocks and free fall.


It is not clear if Cooper eventually got the main control working or just the Emergency release but the Emergency door with that Placard was removed.

The FBI may be holding the details about the hijacker's Airstair use from the public as only the hijacker would have that knowledge.



Take Away..

Cooper did not have experience with B727 Airstair operation.

The “emergency” placard find and the the cockpit Airstairs light that lit red ONLY (indicating UNLOCK) suggests that the Emergency Airstair release was deployed and not the main control. A red and amber light indicates main control use.

If so, the stairs would have free fallen without hydraulic assist to the point which the airflow at speed held them up. In this situation, the opening at the end of the Airstairs would have been small and the environment violent navigating to the end.


The found position of the Placard indicates the point at which Cooper accessed that detachable “Emergency Release” door (Red Light in cockpit). From there a potential LZ can be constructed working South.


What is a reasonable timeframe between using the emergency release and exiting the plane.

From ATC Timetable:

19:42 PST 7:42   Flt 305 reports “14 NM out of SEA on Victor-23. Cooper is trying to get the door down, Stew is with us, he cannot get the stairs down. We now have an aft stair light on.  [Likely time of placard loss ??]

19:44 PST 7:44   Flt 305 advises they will hold at 7,000 ft. We have the back steps down now and it looks like we aren’t going to be able to climb anymore.

19:45 PST 7:45   Flt 305 reports 19 NM DME out of SEA at 7,000 ft. No comm.. with Cooper but have an aft stair light.

20:05 PST 8:05   Pilot reports that he has tried twice to contact Cooper unsuccessfully, then he came on the PA system and said everything is OK.

20:12 PST 8:12  Flt 305 advises they are getting some oscillations in the cabin, Cooper must be doing something with the stairs.

Red Light in cockpit..
 
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georger

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4068 on: December 05, 2017, 02:15:06 PM »
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The Airstairs…  Operational note.

According to FBI docs, Cooper was shown by Tina how to operate the Airstairs via main panel.

The B727 Airstairs are operated by opening a hinged panel and using a lever, that lever has a button on top that must be pressed. Cooper’s first attempt to lower the Airstairs failed. (Perhaps it was too dark to see the release button on top of the lever).

The normal operation via the main control lowers the stairs first by gravity and via hydraulic assist at mid point. They normally lock in position at the top and bottom.

The secondary “Emergency Release” is a small door next to the main panel with finger holes to pull panel and detach completely. That small door, had the placard attached by rivets/screws. The emergency release is a pull which shears the locks and drops the Airstairs via gravity.

The “emergency” placard was found detached from the emergency door, that small (plastic) emergency door may still be out there near the Placard location.

The Airstair red light indicator came on in the cockpit, but it ONLY indicates that the Airstairs are NOT LOCKED in UP or DOWN position. (in 727 manual)

An amber light indicates that Stairs are NOT UP and NOT LOCKED. (in 727 manual) (I haven't found an Amber light mentioned)

Green Light indicates DOWN and LOCKED. (in 727 manual)


The emergency release only releases the UP position locks, meant to be used on the ground it relies on gravity to drop the Airstairs.
At speed a gravity drop may not have opened the Airstairs much and it would have been a tight and violent environment for Mr....


To clarify, the main control lever unlocks, free fall and hydraulic assists. The emergency release only unlocks and free fall.


It is not clear if Cooper eventually got the main control working or just the Emergency release but the Emergency door with that Placard was removed.

The FBI may be holding the details about the hijacker's Airstair use from the public as only the hijacker would have that knowledge.



Take Away..

Cooper did not have experience with B727 Airstair operation.

The “emergency” placard find and the the cockpit Airstairs light that lit red ONLY (indicating UNLOCK) suggests that the Emergency Airstair release was deployed and not the main control. A red and amber light indicates main control use.

If so, the stairs would have free fallen without hydraulic assist to the point which the airflow at speed held them up. In this situation, the opening at the end of the Airstairs would have been small and the environment violent navigating to the end.


The found position of the Placard indicates the point at which Cooper accessed that detachable “Emergency Release” door (Red Light in cockpit). From there a potential LZ can be constructed working South.


What is a reasonable timeframe between using the emergency release and exiting the plane.

From ATC Timetable:

19:42 PST 7:42   Flt 305 reports “14 NM out of SEA on Victor-23. Cooper is trying to get the door down, Stew is with us, he cannot get the stairs down. We now have an aft stair light on.  [Likely time of placard loss ??]

19:44 PST 7:44   Flt 305 advises they will hold at 7,000 ft. We have the back steps down now and it looks like we aren’t going to be able to climb anymore.

19:45 PST 7:45   Flt 305 reports 19 NM DME out of SEA at 7,000 ft. No comm.. with Cooper but have an aft stair light.

20:05 PST 8:05   Pilot reports that he has tried twice to contact Cooper unsuccessfully, then he came on the PA system and said everything is OK.

20:12 PST 8:12  Flt 305 advises they are getting some oscillations in the cabin, Cooper must be doing something with the stairs.

Red Light in cockpit..

I dont know - maybe by 'couldnt get the stairs down" he means to open fully down? I dont know. You can estimate jump from two directions: from some point of assumed placard release or, from the time of the red lite on.   
 

Offline Kermit

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4069 on: December 05, 2017, 02:19:36 PM »
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I think the reason for the lack of discussion with the configuration of the plane is the fact of it being accepted. the stairs were a different story. they switch to 30 degree's to slow the plane down further while he fumbles with the stairs. the flaps set at 30 only last about five minutes after they realize it will burn even more fuel. I believe they switch back to 15 when they start climbing to 10,000.

A wild guess could be Cooper watching the stairs come down from the tarmac thinking the they were lowered from the cockpit when it's actually the stew lowering them. this of course would mean Cooper has never been inside a 727 for any flights in the past.

was he smart enough to cover all these angles, or was he dumb enough to get himself killed over the crime? criminals always make critical error's, that's how they get caught. some work years preparing for it only to be caught with the critical error, or oversight.

Cooper could of easily asked for the cloud levels, or to drop the altitude if he was really looking for the key position to jump. why do it half ass, or did he screw up missing his original jump location? you would think a pilot would ask these types of questions..life saving questions.
I have always felt that the most concrete actual evidence left behind by Coop is the placard find and location. I believe we can identify the location of Aircraft pretty accurately! What figures do we need to do a fairly simple Mathematical solution.
1. We need the exact altitude of Placard find.
2. We need exact location of placard find.
3 we need altitude of aircraft at time of placard being dislodged from stairs.
4. We need wind speed to help determine drift of placard.
5. We need to know weight of placard approximated.
According to above post it appears the aircraft was at an elevation below 10,000 feet as Shutter mentions the stairs being already down and pilots realizing the extra drag will,cause fuel problem so they change flaps to 30 as they climb to 10,000 ft. I am curious what math figures were used when Simulations were done to try to locate flight location at time of placard find ! All of these figures are important to come to an relatively accurate conclusion. I have noticed in a earlier post that Robert 99 answers a question about the placard location as being just a few miles from Tina Bar ? Really ? I’ve been close to the placard find location and I’m curious as to what a few miles means to R99.
My main point is let’s try to agree on some accurate figures that I listed above and we can fairly accurately estimate where the aircraft was at 8:05 IF I’m reading correctly.
 

FLYJACK

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4070 on: December 05, 2017, 02:33:42 PM »
placard location.. at 1322ft (google earth est)


Thinking it out,, the placard may have not fallen off the plane when the UNLOCK light came on as the stairs may not have lowered yet or opened enough.

At best the stairs would have been only partially opened until Cooper went to the end.

« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 02:39:44 PM by FLYJACK »
 

georger

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4071 on: December 05, 2017, 02:38:00 PM »
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placard location.. at 1322ft (google earth est)

BTW, Anderson testified: "Anderson added, it had not occurred to them at the time to pinpoint their exact location at the time of the oscillation … "  (FBI doc)
 

georger

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4072 on: December 05, 2017, 02:53:39 PM »
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I think the reason for the lack of discussion with the configuration of the plane is the fact of it being accepted. the stairs were a different story. they switch to 30 degree's to slow the plane down further while he fumbles with the stairs. the flaps set at 30 only last about five minutes after they realize it will burn even more fuel. I believe they switch back to 15 when they start climbing to 10,000.

A wild guess could be Cooper watching the stairs come down from the tarmac thinking the they were lowered from the cockpit when it's actually the stew lowering them. this of course would mean Cooper has never been inside a 727 for any flights in the past.

was he smart enough to cover all these angles, or was he dumb enough to get himself killed over the crime? criminals always make critical error's, that's how they get caught. some work years preparing for it only to be caught with the critical error, or oversight.

Cooper could of easily asked for the cloud levels, or to drop the altitude if he was really looking for the key position to jump. why do it half ass, or did he screw up missing his original jump location? you would think a pilot would ask these types of questions..life saving questions.
I have always felt that the most concrete actual evidence left behind by Coop is the placard find and location. I believe we can identify the location of Aircraft pretty accurately! What figures do we need to do a fairly simple Mathematical solution.
1. We need the exact altitude of Placard find.
2. We need exact location of placard find.
3 we need altitude of aircraft at time of placard being dislodged from stairs.
4. We need wind speed to help determine drift of placard.
5. We need to know weight of placard approximated.
According to above post it appears the aircraft was at an elevation below 10,000 feet as Shutter mentions the stairs being already down and pilots realizing the extra drag will,cause fuel problem so they change flaps to 30 as they climb to 10,000 ft. I am curious what math figures were used when Simulations were done to try to locate flight location at time of placard find ! All of these figures are important to come to an relatively accurate conclusion. I have noticed in a earlier post that Robert 99 answers a question about the placard location as being just a few miles from Tina Bar ? Really ? I’ve been close to the placard find location and I’m curious as to what a few miles means to R99.
My main point is let’s try to agree on some accurate figures that I listed above and we can fairly accurately estimate where the aircraft was at 8:05 IF I’m reading correctly.

very interesting and a valid exercise!  I think Shutter raises some valid questions. My guess is the pilots only wanted to get rid of the hijacker in the most expedient way possible. Since the hijacker wanted to be in control, seemed to be in control, then simply slow and stabilise the plane and let the hijacker do it 'his way'. Problem gone!

It's obvious everyone thought Cooper was gone after 8:10-12 ... but they wait for Reno to confirm it under the premise "we really didn't know". All knowing is relative I guess.  ;) 
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 02:54:11 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4073 on: December 05, 2017, 03:02:08 PM »
Quote
According to above post it appears the aircraft was at an elevation below 10,000 feet as Shutter mentions the stairs being already down and pilots realizing the extra drag will,cause fuel problem so they change flaps to 30 as they climb to 10,000 ft. I am curious what math figures were used when Simulations were done to try to locate flight location at time of placard find ! All of these figures are important to come to an relatively accurate conclusion. I have noticed in a earlier post that Robert 99 answers a question about the placard location as being just a few miles from Tina Bar ? Really ? I’ve been close to the placard find location and I’m curious as to what a few miles means to R99.
My main point is let’s try to agree on some accurate figures that I listed above and we can fairly accurately estimate where the aircraft was at 8:05 IF I’m reading correctly.

Shortly after takeoff Cooper got the stairs open, not down, not locked. they open about 20 degree's in the free fall position. this was at 7,000 feet. they leveled off and slowed the plane down. 30 degree flaps were also deployed..

according to the testing, there was no drag while the stairs were hanging down, and minimum drag while the stairs were 95% down. they had a pretty good idea how far the plane would fly in the current configuration. they calculated that with the flaps at 30 degree's would cause further loss of fuel, so they went back to 15 degree's.

when you look on Tom Kaye's website the calculations are there, along with a map showing where the placard was found giving indication as to where the plane was at that time. after reading page after page of multiple people working on the flight path, including the Air Force, it makes it difficult to believe an alternate route occurred. a lot of documents have surfaced about this issue.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 03:08:29 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4074 on: December 05, 2017, 03:07:02 PM »
The plane was at 7,000 at the start of the flight, and then began to climb to 10,000 prior to turning at Toledo and passing the Malay intersection, or approx. 23 minutes into the flight.. the plane was at 10,000 at the 8:05 position as well, and didn't change altitude till they were approaching Reno due to mountain elevations.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4075 on: December 05, 2017, 03:16:50 PM »
Quote
It's obvious everyone thought Cooper was gone after 8:10-12 ... but they wait for Reno to confirm it under the premise "we really didn't know". All knowing is relative I guess.


Many accounts from the FBI claim they had no idea where he jumped. the original location was further north, but it appears they were constantly updating there calculations trying to pinpoint a firm location, but still left a lot of area to search, including all the way down to the Columbia. they were asked to climb slowly to 11,000 to try and put him to sleep, but they didn't do this, nor did they signal any planes as they were suppose to do if they thought he left the plane. I think it could boils down to them not being ready for the exit, or failing to keep all informed.
 

Robert99

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4076 on: December 05, 2017, 03:29:14 PM »
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The plane was at 7,000 at the start of the flight, and then began to climb to 10,000 prior to turning at Toledo and passing the Malay intersection, or approx. 23 minutes into the flight.. the plane was at 10,000 at the 8:05 position as well, and didn't change altitude till they were approaching Reno due to mountain elevations.

Shutter is correct.  At 7:53:35 PM PST, the airliner crew stated that they were at 10,000 feet.  They did not give a location, but they were well north of the Malay Intersection at that time.  Ten miles or so.

They stayed at 10,000 feet until they were in northern California and needed to climb to 11,000 feet so they could clear the mountains as they turned east toward Reno. 

All of the above is discussed in the radio transcripts. 
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4077 on: December 05, 2017, 03:32:52 PM »
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And now you want to insist Rataczak personally talked to Cooper who said 'set the flaps at fifteen'.   


Nope. That's not what I said, nor implied. When Rataczak said "me" I took it to mean in a more general way, such as "informing the cockpit crew." Rataczak is kind of an imperial kind of guy. He ran the cockpit, but tried to do so in a diplomatic manner. Anderson reportedly hated Rataczak, and Scotty seemed to live in his own little world.

Nor do I believe that Rataczak's memory is infallible. Or that his account is accurate or truthful. I don't know if Rataczak is lying about the flight path, ie: flying over the Washougal, or his statements in the HC docu which are absurd, ie: flying over terrain that was 5,000 feet in altitude - which would put 305 on the western flanks of Mt Saint Helens.

Talking to Rataczak, or any interviewee for that matter, is a lot like reading tea leaves. Much needs to be interpreted to context, tone of voice, body language, etc. I know you prefer a more black and white investigatory environment, but that is not always possible. Hence we have journalists and scientists to make the world go 'round.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 03:33:45 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4078 on: December 05, 2017, 03:39:36 PM »
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...[I dont give a flying F what Bruce says R told him!]...


Why not?

You have little interest in hearing what Rataczak said about these issues?

BTW: I'm happy to share the microphone with anyone else here who has talked to Rataczak. I'd love to hear what he told other journalists and researchers.
 

Robert99

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4079 on: December 05, 2017, 03:43:53 PM »
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I think the reason for the lack of discussion with the configuration of the plane is the fact of it being accepted. the stairs were a different story. they switch to 30 degree's to slow the plane down further while he fumbles with the stairs. the flaps set at 30 only last about five minutes after they realize it will burn even more fuel. I believe they switch back to 15 when they start climbing to 10,000.

A wild guess could be Cooper watching the stairs come down from the tarmac thinking the they were lowered from the cockpit when it's actually the stew lowering them. this of course would mean Cooper has never been inside a 727 for any flights in the past.

was he smart enough to cover all these angles, or was he dumb enough to get himself killed over the crime? criminals always make critical error's, that's how they get caught. some work years preparing for it only to be caught with the critical error, or oversight.

Cooper could of easily asked for the cloud levels, or to drop the altitude if he was really looking for the key position to jump. why do it half ass, or did he screw up missing his original jump location? you would think a pilot would ask these types of questions..life saving questions.
I have always felt that the most concrete actual evidence left behind by Coop is the placard find and location. I believe we can identify the location of Aircraft pretty accurately! What figures do we need to do a fairly simple Mathematical solution.
1. We need the exact altitude of Placard find.
2. We need exact location of placard find.
3 we need altitude of aircraft at time of placard being dislodged from stairs.
4. We need wind speed to help determine drift of placard.
5. We need to know weight of placard approximated.
According to above post it appears the aircraft was at an elevation below 10,000 feet as Shutter mentions the stairs being already down and pilots realizing the extra drag will,cause fuel problem so they change flaps to 30 as they climb to 10,000 ft. I am curious what math figures were used when Simulations were done to try to locate flight location at time of placard find ! All of these figures are important to come to an relatively accurate conclusion. I have noticed in a earlier post that Robert 99 answers a question about the placard location as being just a few miles from Tina Bar ? Really ? I’ve been close to the placard find location and I’m curious as to what a few miles means to R99.
My main point is let’s try to agree on some accurate figures that I listed above and we can fairly accurately estimate where the aircraft was at 8:05 IF I’m reading correctly.

Kermit,

Many of your questions have already been answered on the flight path thread that I posted on extensively on these very questions.  If you take the time to read that thread, you will know why getting the unredacted Seattle ATC radio transcripts are so important.

On the placard matter, if the placard was on a small door and that entire door disappeared then the placard would probably have stayed on that door all the way to the ground.  But the placard that was found on the ground was obviously torn off with a substantial part of it left on whatever structure it was mounted.  Reportedly, the remaining part of the placard was found by the maintenance people still attached to the structure when they repaired the aircraft in Seattle.

See Tom Kaye's site for the calculations that I used in predicting where the placard was torn off and separated from the aircraft.

After reading the items referenced above, get back in touch and we can discuss the matter further.

For the record, in my lingo "a few miles" means "a few miles". ;)