Author Topic: New Forum & News Updates  (Read 1805286 times)

georger

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4035 on: December 03, 2017, 05:50:25 PM »
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A man who resembled the sketch was jumping from a school in California, making 3 or 4 jumps from the center in Elsinore California..

They recall conversations about certain aspects of jumping, including jumping out of jets. They told him it could be done if the door opened inward, or had a rear stairwell that could be raised or lowered. The man appeared  interested and they discuss further, to the point where air speed and drag were talked about. The fact was brought up that full flaps and lowered landing gear would supply the drag needed to exit  from a jet..

He also inquired about where jump centers were located in the northwest. He was told about three in the state of Washington..they stated that in his opinion someone contemplating a hijacking would ask those type of questions and thought it was strange that nobody else ever asked these questions. They also discussed altitudes, oxygen supply, and distance of free fall..

Then he claimed to have noticed that he smoked “Raleigh” cigarette's in which they discussed the coupons in which the man stated he was saving up for a P.C. Para Commander chute.

The FBI claimed that after viewing the registration cards (12,000) from the school noticed that most of them were between 25-28 years of age and they would not hang around an old guy like that.

He describes the individual he talked to in July, or August of 1971 as follows..

Race – white
Complexion -light
Age- 40-42
Height- 6' -6' 1” in boots
Weight – 165-175
Build – slim
Hair- dark brown thin on top, receding on both sides, front combed back, parted on left.

Now, was this Cooper, probably not, but it does show how simple information could have been obtained...

the file does state military experience was thought of due to the individual wearing "Cochrane" boots that were peculiar to military jumpers and not team, clubs, sport or novice.

a magazine "Look" dated August 24, 1971 on page 46, 47 shows a man jumping out of a jet aircraft that could of sparked the conversation...

Excellent report -   :congrats: :congrats:



 
« Last Edit: December 04, 2017, 04:55:21 AM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4036 on: December 04, 2017, 08:57:52 AM »
here is a video from 1963 from the Elsinore paracenter where they claimed a man fitting Cooper's description showed up asking a lot of questions..not a whole lot to see, but it shows a harness being put on, and the front chute being attached, not a lot involved and very similar to how I put my safety harness on while working with aerial lifts/platforms..

.
 
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Offline JLa

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4037 on: December 04, 2017, 10:18:20 AM »
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Now, was this Cooper, probably not, but it does show how simple information could have been obtained...

the file does state military experience was thought of due to the individual wearing "Cochrane" boots that were peculiar to military jumpers and not team, clubs, sport or novice.

a magazine "Look" dated August 24, 1971 on page 46, 47 shows a man jumping out of a jet aircraft that could of sparked the conversation...

Excellent report -   :congrats: :congrats:



 

Didn't the Zodiac Killer reportedly wear "Cochrane Boots?"  :conspiracy:

lol Sorry...I had to go there.  :rofl:   >:(
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4038 on: December 04, 2017, 11:21:42 AM »
you would have to ask the two guys on You Tube pushing that Kenny Christiansen was the Zodiac killer, and DB Cooper  :rofl:

the real question seems to be...did Johnny Cochran wear "cochrane" boots  :rofl:
 

Robert99

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4039 on: December 04, 2017, 11:51:03 AM »
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you would have to ask the two guys on You Tube pushing that Kenny Christiansen was the Zodiac killer, and DB Cooper  :rofl:

the real question seems to be...did Johnny Cochran wear "cochrane" boots  :rofl:

The correct spelling for these jump boots is actually "Corcoran" boots. 
 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4040 on: December 04, 2017, 12:06:18 PM »
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you would have to ask the two guys on You Tube pushing that Kenny Christiansen was the Zodiac killer, and DB Cooper  :rofl:

the real question seems to be...did Johnny Cochran wear "cochrane" boots  :rofl:

The correct spelling for these jump boots is actually "Corcoran" boots.

either I misspelled it, or they did on the 302....pretty sure they did...

UPDATE...yep, they misspelled it....
« Last Edit: December 04, 2017, 12:08:46 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline JLa

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4041 on: December 04, 2017, 12:12:15 PM »
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you would have to ask the two guys on You Tube pushing that Kenny Christiansen was the Zodiac killer, and DB Cooper  :rofl:

the real question seems to be...did Johnny Cochran wear "cochrane" boots  :rofl:

The correct spelling for these jump boots is actually "Corcoran" boots.

So I guess that answers the question about Johnny and his footwear...
 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4042 on: December 04, 2017, 12:16:20 PM »
Quote
So I guess that answers the question about Johnny and his footwear...

yep, I guess we must acquit since the spelling didn't fit  :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
 
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Offline 377

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4043 on: December 04, 2017, 12:25:53 PM »
R99 wrote "If Cooper had experience with other large aircraft, and he probably did, then he should have been able to make a fairly accurate guess about the flap setting and air speed.  The landing gear down and an altitude of 10,000 feet were no-brainers."

Agree. None of that info is especially 727 specific, although 15 degrees is a 727 flap lever detent position. It does, however, show an aircraft savvy person who understands the need for a slow exit speed and how to insure it. If he just gave the crew an airspeed number he'd have no accurate way to verify that they were complying if gear and flaps were up. Gear down and flaps extended 15 degrees was a smart order.

377
 

georger

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4044 on: December 04, 2017, 03:09:20 PM »
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R99 wrote "If Cooper had experience with other large aircraft, and he probably did, then he should have been able to make a fairly accurate guess about the flap setting and air speed.  The landing gear down and an altitude of 10,000 feet were no-brainers."

Agree. None of that info is especially 727 specific, although 15 degrees is a 727 flap lever detent position. It does, however, show an aircraft savvy person who understands the need for a slow exit speed and how to insure it. If he just gave the crew an airspeed number he'd have no accurate way to verify that they were complying if gear and flaps were up. Gear down and flaps extended 15 degrees was a smart order.

377

What it shows, is someone arguing to get what he wants- the plane slowed so he can bail. Farflung thought there were enough inconsistencies and confusions and redundancies in what Cooper ordered that it questioned Cooper's experience - that he could not be a pilot. Snowmman and R99 agreed with most of Farflung's assessment. Let's go back and put this in its context. Farflung also pointed out that Cooper demurred from ever talking or arguing directly with the crew about anything of a technical nature.

There were no technical demands or stipulations in Cooper's original list(s) of demands - his note or the stews notes and orders conveyed to the cockpit for Cooper. It also turns out that 15* flaps is the start position at takeoff (R99, FFl, Snowman, 377, Sluggo etal). According to Snowmman the actual flap setting when Cooper bailed had been moved to 30*, not 15*. Farflung seriously questioned what Cooper meant by 15* and precisely what he was asking for!

Was Cooper speaking from actual experience or was he merely giving out a 'RECIPE' for jumping that included 15 degrees as one ingredient?

All of Cooper's technical demands originate at roughly  6:21pm when Mucklow comes back with the last parachute only to find Cooper cutting and tying cord from one parachute around the neck of the money bag.  More than a hour before the plane will take off at Seattle at 7:33pm. Cooper suddenly issues orders to Mucklow for the cockpit saying:

305:   WE HAVE INSTRUCTIONS FROM THE INDIVIDUAL. He wants Nr 305 to go to Mexico City with gear down and flaps at 15 degrees after under way. (Stairs out) All lights to be turned out in aircraft. Cannot land in USA for fuel or any other reason. No crew member is to go aft of  class section curtain.

Cooper never mentions 15 degrees again if it was so God-awful important to Cooper and his ‘recipe’ for jumping. In contrast to that, the debate about stairs, the issue of slowing and stabilizing the aircraft etc.,  will continue right up through 8:05/8:10 …  when Cooper is thought to have jumped.

Mr. Smith has said he believes Cooper was a pilot, because during his interview with Bill Rataczak, Rataczak told him that when Cooper suddenly issued his technical demands at around 6:21 mentioning 15 degree flaps, that convinced Bill the hijacker must be a pilot or someone with particular knowledge about the 727.

However, Anderson’s recollection of this is different. Anderson said in his in his interview:  “ After the plane had landed and the delivery of the money and parachutes, the hijacker forwarded through hostess Mucklow the following instructions: (1) … going to Mexico City non-stop or if they could not reach Mexico City then anywhere in Mexico, (2) … fly with landing gear and flaps down, (3) not fly above 10,000 feet, (4) … lights out in the cabin area, (5) they were not to land in the USA for fuel or any other reason, (6) nobody is allowed aft of the first class curtain, (7 ) after taking off hostess Mucklow will be allowed to go to the cockpit, (8 ) the rear door is to be open and the stairs extended for taking off.”
There is no mention of 15 degrees in Anderson’s account!

Muckow’s version is : “He said, “We’re going to Mexico City, gear down, flaps down, you can trim the plane to 15, you can stop anywhere in Mexico to refuel but not here in the United States. The aft door must be open and the stairs down. The altitude under 10,000 feet, they know they can’t go over that. Cabin lights must be out and everyone is to be forward of the first class curtain.” 
« Last Edit: December 04, 2017, 03:21:38 PM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4045 on: December 04, 2017, 03:19:55 PM »
I never said Cooper was a pilot.

Nor do I think that he had to be one.

I have said that his knowledge of how to jump from a 727 exceeded that of the pilots and NWO flight operations.
 

georger

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4046 on: December 04, 2017, 03:25:12 PM »
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I never said Cooper was a pilot.

Nor do I think that he had to be one.

I have said that his knowledge of how to jump from a 727 exceeded that of the pilots and NWO flight operations.

OK - so why do you keep bringing up your interview with Rataczak - saying Cooper was a pilot?
:D
« Last Edit: December 04, 2017, 11:44:36 PM by georger »
 

Robert99

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4047 on: December 04, 2017, 04:00:23 PM »
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I never said Cooper was a pilot.

Nor do I think that he had to be one.

I have said that his knowledge of how to jump from a 727 exceeded that of the pilots and NWO flight operations.

OK - so why do you keep bringing up your interview with Rataczak - saying Cooper was a pilot?

Or do I have that wrong too!?

Why do we have to hire teams to research what you think or said at the Library of Congress to find out what you think and what you said at 12:89 March 9 1493?  This has been going on for years! It's impossible to follow the Evolution of Bruce Smith. :rofl: 

Here we are again!!!!!!!!!!!!   Discussing what Bruce Smith said or thinks or did not say or think -  vs DB Cooper.  It never fails. Bruce you have become a bigger more urgent topic than DB Cooper! 

So, did ' his knowledge of how to jump from a 727 exceeded that of the pilots and NWO flight operations' and exceed that of Christopher Columbus ?

Your knowledge of this matter seems to even exceed: 727 pilots and NWO flight operations.  !  :D

Bruce's present day (2017) knowledge of the aft stairs ability to be lowered in flight does exceed the knowledge of NWO operations and the three members of the flight crew involved in the 1971 hijacking.  But that is probably due totally to the fact that knowledge of the aft stairs has been widely circulated ever where between here and Pluto since 1971. ;D
 

georger

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4048 on: December 04, 2017, 04:13:18 PM »
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I never said Cooper was a pilot.

Nor do I think that he had to be one.

I have said that his knowledge of how to jump from a 727 exceeded that of the pilots and NWO flight operations.

OK - so why do you keep bringing up your interview with Rataczak - saying Cooper was a pilot?

Or do I have that wrong too!?

Why do we have to hire teams to research what you think or said at the Library of Congress to find out what you think and what you said at 12:89 March 9 1493?  This has been going on for years! It's impossible to follow the Evolution of Bruce Smith. :rofl: 

Here we are again!!!!!!!!!!!!   Discussing what Bruce Smith said or thinks or did not say or think -  vs DB Cooper.  It never fails. Bruce you have become a bigger more urgent topic than DB Cooper! 

So, did ' his knowledge of how to jump from a 727 exceeded that of the pilots and NWO flight operations' and exceed that of Christopher Columbus ?

Your knowledge of this matter seems to even exceed: 727 pilots and NWO flight operations.  !  :D

Bruce's present day (2017) knowledge of the aft stairs ability to be lowered in flight does exceed the knowledge of NWO operations and the three members of the flight crew involved in the 1971 hijacking.  But that is probably due totally to the fact that knowledge of the aft stairs has been widely circulated ever where between here and Pluto since 1971. ;D

No one is questioning the aft stairs debate. What is at stake now is '15 degree flaps' and whether that indicates Cooper was a pilot ... and if Bruce Smith is a genius! 
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4049 on: December 04, 2017, 04:26:55 PM »
It's possible it was a crime of opportunity...with a twist

A crime of opportunity is a crime that is committed without planning when the perpetrator sees that he/she has the chance to commit the act at that moment and seizes it. Such acts have little or no premeditation.

Cooper see's the opportunity, much like a prisoner would see an escape route and starts working from that point forward...it has a plan more than just an opportunity..

Was Cooper a pilot? I', not so sure. he failed to give any route, cords, airway etc.. he fails to get any updates as to where the plane is, or even the altitude..a lot of the knowledge could of been obtained through a couple different avenues. jump knowledge should of been easy, the filling of the fuel. the stairs seemed to be his weakest link to make everything click. we can't confirm his not wanting out as early as possible by asking for the stairs to remain open. could of been a bluff, but what if he did want out just after takeoff. could this be the reason for "the right time and place"?

I would have to look at the approach plates to Portland, but I doubt they are close to where the plane was, so attempting a DZ would be tough when you haven't a clue where you are. did he really see the dam, did it make it through the cloud layers. his timing of the plane would have to match the direction the plane was going. how did he know this route that was taken, he said nothing but fly to Mexico? depending on the wind, time, traffic, and weather. any dry runs from Seattle should, or would be different in the approach..