Author Topic: New Forum & News Updates  (Read 742367 times)

Robert99

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4020 on: December 01, 2017, 03:22:04 PM »
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Cooper was 727 savvy. The flap, speed, gear and altitude commands are clear evidence of that. He wasn't just a casual airline passenger. They don't know the difference between a flap, spoiler or elevator.

Betting your freedom on the ASSUMPTION that the door could be opened and the stairs lowered in flight is lunacy. The squat switches on the landing gear struts are used to disable many things that work on the ground but are not intended to work in the air for safety reasons, such as thrust reversers.

I owned a 727 manual in 1971. It was silent on the operability of the airstairs in flight. I never would have assumed that I could escape through the ventral airstair in flight. I'd have assumed that some interlock controlled by the squat switches would have prevented that.

377

I agree with 377 here. I also want to throw into the loop another aspect here; DBC's demeanor. He appeared cool, calm, collected and no statements by any witness that I have read makes me think that he was not in control the entire time or panicked. I just do not think someone without either (and I hate to use this word) "training" or at least experience can hold it together for that long. Especially someone whose getting ready to jump out of an aircraft in late November, carrying more baggage than J. Edgar Hoover and oh yeah...in a business suit. Now I do not want to suggest that he was some super trooper, I just believe the evidence lines up for me to believe that he wasn't "Billy the Businessman" who collects a crapton of air-miles.

Separate question. Did they even have "air-miles" in 1971?

Oh...and I also agree with 377 that he owned a 727 manual in 1971!  ;D

There is no question that Cooper had some knowledge about the 727s ability to take off (Cooper was right on this point and Rataczak was wrong) and fly with the aft stairs down.  He may very well have been an eye witness to such operations.  But that doesn't mean that he was an active participant in such operations.  The fact that Cooper thought the aft stairs were lowered from the cockpit and that he had trouble lowering them, after having been told how to do so, means that his knowledge of the 727 was limited.

If Cooper had experience with other large aircraft, and he probably did, then he should have been able to make a fairly accurate guess about the flap setting and air speed.  The landing gear down and an altitude of 10,000 feet were no-brainers.

 

georger

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4021 on: December 01, 2017, 03:23:26 PM »
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Cooper was 727 savvy. The flap, speed, gear and altitude commands are clear evidence of that. He wasn't just a casual airline passenger. They don't know the difference between a flap, spoiler or elevator.

Betting your freedom on the ASSUMPTION that the door could be opened and the stairs lowered in flight is lunacy. The squat switches on the landing gear struts are used to disable many things that work on the ground but are not intended to work in the air for safety reasons, such as thrust reversers.

I owned a 727 manual in 1971. It was silent on the operability of the airstairs in flight. I never would have assumed that I could escape through the ventral airstair in flight. I'd have assumed that some interlock controlled by the squat switches would have prevented that.

377

I agree with 377 here. I also want to throw into the loop another aspect here; DBC's demeanor. He appeared cool, calm, collected and no statements by any witness that I have read makes me think that he was not in control the entire time or panicked. I just do not think someone without either (and I hate to use this word) "training" or at least experience can hold it together for that long. Especially someone whose getting ready to jump out of an aircraft in late November, carrying more baggage than J. Edgar Hoover and oh yeah...in a business suit. Now I do not want to suggest that he was some super trooper, I just believe the evidence lines up for me to believe that he wasn't "Billy the Businessman" who collects a crapton of air-miles.

Separate question. Did they even have "air-miles" in 1971?

Oh...and I also agree with 377 that he owned a 727 manual in 1971!  ;D

/  and no statements by any witness that I have read makes me think that he was not in control the entire time or panicked. /

Really? Then you need to keep reading. Try the Mucklow interviews ... ;D

Remember, he referenced everything at the start with "no funny stuff". Are you saying he was kidding?  Are you saying he brought no highly flammable materials on board in a brief case rigged with a switch circuit and sat right underneath oxygen bottles (which he pointed out to the stew!). Are you saying the crew took this all as a joke ......... ?     
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 03:35:43 PM by georger »
 

georger

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4022 on: December 01, 2017, 03:27:06 PM »
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Cooper was 727 savvy. The flap, speed, gear and altitude commands are clear evidence of that. He wasn't just a casual airline passenger. They don't know the difference between a flap, spoiler or elevator.

Betting your freedom on the ASSUMPTION that the door could be opened and the stairs lowered in flight is lunacy. The squat switches on the landing gear struts are used to disable many things that work on the ground but are not intended to work in the air for safety reasons, such as thrust reversers.

I owned a 727 manual in 1971. It was silent on the operability of the airstairs in flight. I never would have assumed that I could escape through the ventral airstair in flight. I'd have assumed that some interlock controlled by the squat switches would have prevented that.

377

Your stand is well known.

Possibly projection by you. 
 

Offline 377

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4023 on: December 01, 2017, 03:52:25 PM »
G wrote:

"Possibly projection by you."

Certainly Georger. Cooper might have been an impulsive unprepared moron. I just don't think he was. I think there is evidence that he was savvy about specific aircraft flight configurations appropriate for his jump.  I think if you knew that much about the aircraft, you'd be damned sure the door could be opened and the stairs lowered in flight. Otherwise you'd be entering a cylindrical alumminum holding cell awaiting transfer to a proper jail at Reno.

I once again thank TC for his continuing FOIA battle which is bearing more fruit. I wonder if his lawyers could shake loose the redacted ATC comm excerpts? What possible legal reason could there be for witholding that info in 2017?

377




 

georger

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4024 on: December 01, 2017, 04:06:58 PM »
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G wrote:

"Possibly projection by you."

Certainly Georger. Cooper might have been an impulsive unprepared moron. I just don't think he was. I think there is evidence that he was savvy about specific aircraft flight configurations appropriate for his jump.  I think if you knew that much about the aircraft, you'd be damned sure the door could be opened and the stairs lowered in flight. Otherwise you'd be entering a cylindrical alumminum holding cell awaiting transfer to a proper jail at Reno.

I once again thank TC for his continuing FOIA battle which is bearing more fruit. I wonder if his lawyers could shake loose the redacted ATC comm excerpts? What possible legal reason could there be for witholding that info in 2017?

377

One thing that I still am unclear about is the amount of time he spent in the LAV. There seem to be contradicting accounts ... from 30 seconds to minutes (all through the period when passengers were being taken off the plane?). I wish we could get that straight. 
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 04:07:28 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4025 on: December 01, 2017, 06:52:43 PM »
Quote
Cooper was 727 savvy. The flap, speed, gear and altitude commands are clear evidence of that. He wasn't just a casual airline passenger. They don't know the difference between a flap, spoiler or elevator.


Read the entry from the 302's of a skydiving school talking about a guy who came in asking those type of questions...even where the schools were in Washington...he was curious about jumping out of jets too....he recalled him coming in July, or August of 1971...flaps & gear were discussed...
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 07:17:38 PM by Shutter »
 

georger

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4026 on: December 02, 2017, 02:02:02 PM »
The DB Cooper Hijacking - The Polite Hijacking. All was cool, controlled, and under control at all times. No slamming of fists or ballyhoo.

The model of efficiency. All hijackings should be like this one ... by the Manual .... 377 has the manual!

It was a technical hijacking.

Our Hijackers are the best in the Industry.

Cocktails served at 3:00pm.

RSVP.


[Anonymity guaranteed. What happens in the State of Washington stays in the State of Washington. All expenses paid by taxpayer funded CooperCare. Sign up and get your piece of the pie, now! "It was a horrifying experience", says hostage Tina Mucklow. "Oh GOODY!" says investigative reporter Bruce Smith, Wally World Mountain News.] :-*
« Last Edit: December 02, 2017, 02:48:48 PM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4027 on: December 02, 2017, 05:44:37 PM »
Do we really have to read this stuff, Shutter?
 

georger

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4028 on: December 03, 2017, 12:17:04 AM »
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Do we really have to read this stuff, Shutter?

This?

The DB Cooper Hijacking - The Polite Hijacking. All was cool, controlled, and under control at all times. No slamming of fists or ballyhoo.

The model of efficiency. All hijackings should be like this one ... by the Manual .... 377 has the manual!

It was a technical hijacking. No shots fired. Owner of company said "Cooperate fully" and so they did right down to serving cocktails and lighting hijacker's cigs for him. As for the rest, parachutes and manuals and secret ops in Vietnam tell the story. Govt secrets and conspiracies by a corrupt FBI tell the story. Questions about flight path are null and void. Questions about Tina Bar money are all settled and answered by B. Smith in his recent video You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login


It's become a valid point of view often expressed here by you, JLa, 377, and others. This is merely a summary of views recently expressed in posts and email at the DBCooperForum. None of these views are mine. Im merely the messenger.

What is there to object to? Some of these views are yours!   Are you angry or jealous that you didnt think to make this post first?  CooperCare raises all ships equally - you will simply have to stand in line like I have. You can't always be first-est with the most-est broadcasting on all channels available?  :)

What's the problem?
« Last Edit: December 03, 2017, 02:55:16 AM by georger »
 

MeyerLouie

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4029 on: December 03, 2017, 04:56:29 AM »
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Do we really have to read this stuff, Shutter?


Not any more than we have to read your stuff, Smith.
 

Offline DavidV

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4030 on: December 03, 2017, 11:58:18 AM »
It's possible Cooper received airborne training in the late 1950s to early 1960s.

After WW II the 101st and 82nd were disbanded, but reconstituted in the mid 1950s as part of the Army's response to the Soviet threat (the word 'pentonic response' was used in that era). They trained thousands of men for potential airborne operations not much different than that used during WW II. This training included live jumps in various conditions, including night jumps.

My father was one of them. My mother still has the pics he took heading to the ground! And I remember him talking about his training from time to time.

Point here is that there were many men who -through such training- had enough experience to perform such a jump, even years later. And to do so with little or no apprehension. Whether they would have is another story. Such training, combined with some knowledge of the 727, what a plane needs to fly at for a successful jump and a whole lot of balls could make a man like Cooper contemplate such a heist.



 

Offline Shutter

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4031 on: December 03, 2017, 12:46:55 PM »
A man who resembled the sketch was jumping from a school in California, making 3 or 4 jumps from the center in Elsinore California..

They recall conversations about certain aspects of jumping, including jumping out of jets. They told him it could be done if the door opened inward, or had a rear stairwell that could be raised or lowered. The man appeared  interested and they discuss further, to the point where air speed and drag were talked about. The fact was brought up that full flaps and lowered landing gear would supply the drag needed to exit  from a jet..

He also inquired about where jump centers were located in the northwest. He was told about three in the state of Washington..they stated that in his opinion someone contemplating a hijacking would ask those type of questions and thought it was strange that nobody else ever asked these questions. They also discussed altitudes, oxygen supply, and distance of free fall..

Then he claimed to have noticed that he smoked “Raleigh” cigarette's in which they discussed the coupons in which the man stated he was saving up for a P.C. Para Commander chute.

The FBI claimed that after viewing the registration cards (12,000) from the school noticed that most of them were between 25-28 years of age and they would not hang around an old guy like that.

He describes the individual he talked to in July, or August of 1971 as follows..

Race – white
Complexion -light
Age- 40-42
Height- 6' -6' 1” in boots
Weight – 165-175
Build – slim
Hair- dark brown thin on top, receding on both sides, front combed back, parted on left.

Now, was this Cooper, probably not, but it does show how simple information could have been obtained...

the file does state military experience was thought of due to the individual wearing "Cochrane" boots that were peculiar to military jumpers and not team, clubs, sport or novice.

a magazine "Look" dated August 24, 1971 on page 46, 47 shows a man jumping out of a jet aircraft that could of sparked the conversation...


« Last Edit: December 03, 2017, 02:12:40 PM by Shutter »
 

Robert99

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4032 on: December 03, 2017, 02:28:29 PM »
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It's possible Cooper received airborne training in the late 1950s to early 1960s.

After WW II the 101st and 82nd were disbanded, but reconstituted in the mid 1950s as part of the Army's response to the Soviet threat (the word 'pentonic response' was used in that era). They trained thousands of men for potential airborne operations not much different than that used during WW II. This training included live jumps in various conditions, including night jumps.

My father was one of them. My mother still has the pics he took heading to the ground! And I remember him talking about his training from time to time.

Point here is that there were many men who -through such training- had enough experience to perform such a jump, even years later. And to do so with little or no apprehension. Whether they would have is another story. Such training, combined with some knowledge of the 727, what a plane needs to fly at for a successful jump and a whole lot of balls could make a man like Cooper contemplate such a heist.

I believe that Cooper only specified that the airliner was to fly slower than 200 MPH (about 170 Knots Indicated AirSpeed).  In both 1971 and today, paratroopers using static lines usually jump at a speed of about 140 Knots.

And even as a free-fall parachute jumper, the slower speed would be better for Cooper's jump.
 

Robert99

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4033 on: December 03, 2017, 02:41:59 PM »
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A man who resembled the sketch was jumping from a school in California, making 3 or 4 jumps from the center in Elsinore California..

They recall conversations about certain aspects of jumping, including jumping out of jets. They told him it could be done if the door opened inward, or had a rear stairwell that could be raised or lowered. The man appeared  interested and they discuss further, to the point where air speed and drag were talked about. The fact was brought up that full flaps and lowered landing gear would supply the drag needed to exit  from a jet..

He also inquired about where jump centers were located in the northwest. He was told about three in the state of Washington..they stated that in his opinion someone contemplating a hijacking would ask those type of questions and thought it was strange that nobody else ever asked these questions. They also discussed altitudes, oxygen supply, and distance of free fall..

Then he claimed to have noticed that he smoked “Raleigh” cigarette's in which they discussed the coupons in which the man stated he was saving up for a P.C. Para Commander chute.

The FBI claimed that after viewing the registration cards (12,000) from the school noticed that most of them were between 25-28 years of age and they would not hang around an old guy like that.

He describes the individual he talked to in July, or August of 1971 as follows..

Race – white
Complexion -light
Age- 40-42
Height- 6' -6' 1” in boots
Weight – 165-175
Build – slim
Hair- dark brown thin on top, receding on both sides, front combed back, parted on left.

Now, was this Cooper, probably not, but it does show how simple information could have been obtained...

the file does state military experience was thought of due to the individual wearing "Cochrane" boots that were peculiar to military jumpers and not team, clubs, sport or novice.

a magazine "Look" dated August 24, 1971 on page 46, 47 shows a man jumping out of a jet aircraft that could of sparked the conversation...

Para-Commander parachutes were very expensive when they were introduced in the early 1960s.  A complete rig of Para-Commander equipment would probably cost more than $1000 at that time.  That is probably about $4000 or $5000 dollars in today's money.  An entire military surplus rig, with a modified canopy, could be purchased for less than $150 in that time frame.

In fact, it took a wealthy donor to provide the funds to equip the USA National Parachute Team with Para-Commander equipment for the first use of that equipment in competition.

Based on my experience, parachutists in the early 1960s used paratrooper boots (Cochran or whatever), and I bought mine from a standard Army/Navy Surplus store. 
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: New Forum & News Updates
« Reply #4034 on: December 03, 2017, 04:22:30 PM »
My point was to show how simple it could of been to obtain information while attempting this crime. the cost doesn't really fit into the example...many claim he had military training, and yes it would be static line jumps, but a majority of jumpers in clubs and the sport itself back in those days were much younger than Cooper...
« Last Edit: December 03, 2017, 04:24:23 PM by Shutter »