Author Topic: General Questions About The Case  (Read 267463 times)

Offline Robert99

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2730 on: November 20, 2020, 12:12:26 AM »
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I have seen this "stacked on top of each other" thing repeated again and again, yet I have never seen any documentation of this. Can someone provide me an FBI file or witness statement that says that bundles were "stacked on top of each other"?

Whether or not they were literally on top of each other or not, I do not know. But they were together. It's not as if he found one bundle here and then another one over there and a third one over there. According to his story (or his dad's story), he swept his arm across the sand and boom, there they were. Point is, they were all within inches of each other (which is what I meant by "practically" or "basically" stacked on top of each other). They were all in the same hole.

I think you have it right.  I believe that Himmelsbach described it as the bundles were very close together, only a few inches apart, and two of them may have even been touching.

Also, the fact that the bundles were so close together is all that I need to say that they didn't drop from anywhere, not even a roof top.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2731 on: November 20, 2020, 12:15:25 AM »
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...As for Tina, she is a victim of "free-rangers" intent on pushing their agendas no matter the cost to Tina and others! ... And now we have Bruce Smith suggesting to Tina he could be her "press agent" while refusing to leave her alone and having Tina slam her door in his face on her own property! These people seem to be clueless. It has transcended anything having any relationship to the Cooper case, or anything else....


I promised the Mucklow clan I would work for free as their press agent if Tina would sit down with me and be real, telling me the whole story. I think they'd get their money's worth, and so would I.
 

Offline georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2732 on: November 20, 2020, 01:48:12 AM »
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I have seen this "stacked on top of each other" thing repeated again and again, yet I have never seen any documentation of this. Can someone provide me an FBI file or witness statement that says that bundles were "stacked on top of each other"?

Brian told me they were stacked. Not exactly one on top of the other, as one bundle was askew by 30 degrees or so. There is a diagram on the Citizen Sleuth website that shows the three bundles' position, as Brian told us all in Portland in 2011.

Funny, because Brian's mother told me the money came out in pieces, from the same central area they excavated once Harold realized it was money, but she didn't recall how many pieces. She said they did not remove three distinct bundles but pieces that later added up to three bundles! She said it was the FBI that determined it was three bundles. She said that the rubber band fragments they saw on some of the "pieces" of money did not define three bundles! She said it was the gross amount found that allowed the FBI to determine it was three bundles. She didn't remember how many pieces they had in the sandwich band when she and Harold presented the bag to the FBI, but an older agent took the contents out of the bag and prior to news people being let in the same older agent separated some of the pieces she and Harold had brought in until there were twelve groups of bills showing on the table  - those groups photographed by a press photographer for posterity. The same photograph we see today. She and Harold never saw the money again after they left the building. She doesn't know what the FBI did with it.

One Lab report documents the same sand types with the same characteristics being between (all) of the bills. (implies from the same area).

Brian was eight years old at the time. The bulk of what Brian claims to know today has to be information he has been given (or fed to him) by others. So when you say 'Brian says this ... Brian says that' ... it's very likely all hearsay. I spent several weeks asking Brian about the money and the money find and he didn;t remember anything - he finally suggested I talk  to his mother and he gave me her phone number! That is how and why I wound up talking to Pat Ingram personally. She was friendly and very forthcoming... I liked her. We talked again later. 
« Last Edit: November 20, 2020, 01:58:09 AM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2733 on: November 20, 2020, 01:49:31 AM »
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...As for Tina, she is a victim of "free-rangers" intent on pushing their agendas no matter the cost to Tina and others! ... And now we have Bruce Smith suggesting to Tina he could be her "press agent" while refusing to leave her alone and having Tina slam her door in his face on her own property! These people seem to be clueless. It has transcended anything having any relationship to the Cooper case, or anything else....


I promised the Mucklow clan I would work for free as their press agent if Tina would sit down with me and be real, telling me the whole story. I think they'd get their money's worth, and so would I.

You said before Tina slammed her door in your face . . .  :nono:
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2734 on: November 20, 2020, 03:08:19 AM »
Yes, Tina slammed her front door three times. Once in my face - not so "slammy" perhaps, "firmly" might be the better way to phrase it - but the next two slams were dramatic. The shock waves of those puppies were palpable. I was sitting in my vehicle on the curb and I thought the neighbors might come out and investigate what was happening.

Later, other members of her family, friendship, and support circle contributed another 8 episodes of door closures.

Eleven total over several years and spanning several states.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2020, 03:11:01 AM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2735 on: November 20, 2020, 03:11:55 AM »
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I have seen this "stacked on top of each other" thing repeated again and again, yet I have never seen any documentation of this. Can someone provide me an FBI file or witness statement that says that bundles were "stacked on top of each other"?

Brian told me they were stacked. Not exactly one on top of the other, as one bundle was askew by 30 degrees or so. There is a diagram on the Citizen Sleuth website that shows the three bundles' position, as Brian told us all in Portland in 2011.

Funny, because Brian's mother told me the money came out in pieces, from the same central area they excavated once Harold realized it was money, but she didn't recall how many pieces. She said they did not remove three distinct bundles but pieces that later added up to three bundles! She said it was the FBI that determined it was three bundles. She said that the rubber band fragments they saw on some of the "pieces" of money did not define three bundles! She said it was the gross amount found that allowed the FBI to determine it was three bundles. She didn't remember how many pieces they had in the sandwich band when she and Harold presented the bag to the FBI, but an older agent took the contents out of the bag and prior to news people being let in the same older agent separated some of the pieces she and Harold had brought in until there were twelve groups of bills showing on the table  - those groups photographed by a press photographer for posterity. The same photograph we see today. She and Harold never saw the money again after they left the building. She doesn't know what the FBI did with it.

One Lab report documents the same sand types with the same characteristics being between (all) of the bills. (implies from the same area).

Brian was eight years old at the time. The bulk of what Brian claims to know today has to be information he has been given (or fed to him) by others. So when you say 'Brian says this ... Brian says that' ... it's very likely all hearsay. I spent several weeks asking Brian about the money and the money find and he didn;t remember anything - he finally suggested I talk  to his mother and he gave me her phone number! That is how and why I wound up talking to Pat Ingram personally. She was friendly and very forthcoming... I liked her. We talked again later.

Clearly, Brian's account is not 100% rock-solid. But whose is?
 

Offline georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2736 on: November 20, 2020, 05:08:43 AM »
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I have seen this "stacked on top of each other" thing repeated again and again, yet I have never seen any documentation of this. Can someone provide me an FBI file or witness statement that says that bundles were "stacked on top of each other"?

Brian told me they were stacked. Not exactly one on top of the other, as one bundle was askew by 30 degrees or so. There is a diagram on the Citizen Sleuth website that shows the three bundles' position, as Brian told us all in Portland in 2011.

Funny, because Brian's mother told me the money came out in pieces, from the same central area they excavated once Harold realized it was money, but she didn't recall how many pieces. She said they did not remove three distinct bundles but pieces that later added up to three bundles! She said it was the FBI that determined it was three bundles. She said that the rubber band fragments they saw on some of the "pieces" of money did not define three bundles! She said it was the gross amount found that allowed the FBI to determine it was three bundles. She didn't remember how many pieces they had in the sandwich band when she and Harold presented the bag to the FBI, but an older agent took the contents out of the bag and prior to news people being let in the same older agent separated some of the pieces she and Harold had brought in until there were twelve groups of bills showing on the table  - those groups photographed by a press photographer for posterity. The same photograph we see today. She and Harold never saw the money again after they left the building. She doesn't know what the FBI did with it.

One Lab report documents the same sand types with the same characteristics being between (all) of the bills. (implies from the same area).

Brian was eight years old at the time. The bulk of what Brian claims to know today has to be information he has been given (or fed to him) by others. So when you say 'Brian says this ... Brian says that' ... it's very likely all hearsay. I spent several weeks asking Brian about the money and the money find and he didn;t remember anything - he finally suggested I talk  to his mother and he gave me her phone number! That is how and why I wound up talking to Pat Ingram personally. She was friendly and very forthcoming... I liked her. We talked again later.

Clearly, Brian's account is not 100% rock-solid. But whose is?

I dont think Brian has any interest in the science of the money. Pat's synopsis was compelling with me - I found her surprisingly open, interested, and forthcoming, but also a little guarded which was understandable.

During our first conversation, Pat made a remark to me that caught me completely off guard - she asked me if I had any idea how the Cooper money had come to be at Tina Bar. I hardly knew what to say back. She took me off the hook by adding quickly: 'we have talked a lot about this and really have no idea'. She said 'the whole discovery was a total surprise, a shock, really'. She said events almost got out of control from that point. I finally replied that I have no proven theory about how the money got to Tina Bar. She interrupted me again, which I welcomed, and she said ' we have talked about this a lot'. I asked her 'Have you talked about this with Brian?' and she said 'Oh yes!' Then I told her: 'That is half of why I am calling. We are trying to figure out how the money got on the sandbar.' It was obvious Pat wonders about their discovery, all these years later. That exchange is one of the reasons I say I found her compelling and thoughtful. I found the whole conversation refreshing, frankly. And a welcome surprise. 
« Last Edit: November 20, 2020, 06:00:21 AM by georger »
 
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Offline RaoulDuke24

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2737 on: November 20, 2020, 07:45:32 AM »
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I have seen this "stacked on top of each other" thing repeated again and again, yet I have never seen any documentation of this. Can someone provide me an FBI file or witness statement that says that bundles were "stacked on top of each other"?

Whether or not they were literally on top of each other or not, I do not know. But they were together. It's not as if he found one bundle here and then another one over there and a third one over there. According to his story (or his dad's story), he swept his arm across the sand and boom, there they were. Point is, they were all within inches of each other (which is what I meant by "practically" or "basically" stacked on top of each other). They were all in the same hole.

I think you have it right.  I believe that Himmelsbach described it as the bundles were very close together, only a few inches apart, and two of them may have even been touching.

Also, the fact that the bundles were so close together is all that I need to say that they didn't drop from anywhere, not even a roof top.

Exactly. Touching or not, being in that close proximity to each other makes it an almost zero chance that they fell (or floated) independently without being in a bag.
 
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Offline dudeman17

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2738 on: November 20, 2020, 04:36:07 PM »
I think Flyjack's theory presents the possibility that the three packets may have been rubber banded together into one bundle and arrived at Tina Bar that way. Over time, the rubber band(s) degrade, break and erode away, allowing the packets to separate a bit as found.

As I always say, I am not advocating for that theory, just considering the possibility.
 

Offline georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2739 on: November 20, 2020, 11:27:12 PM »
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I think Flyjack's theory presents the possibility that the three packets may have been rubber banded together into one bundle and arrived at Tina Bar that way. Over time, the rubber band(s) degrade, break and erode away, allowing the packets to separate a bit as found.

As I always say, I am not advocating for that theory, just considering the possibility.

Packets are not a banking term - only something Flyjack made up. The Seafirst bank did not prepare the money as Flyjack insists was done. The Seafirst employee that prepared the money for delivery to the plane was interviewed. 
« Last Edit: November 21, 2020, 01:50:27 AM by georger »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2740 on: November 21, 2020, 02:10:07 AM »
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I think Flyjack's theory presents the possibility that the three packets may have been rubber banded together into one bundle and arrived at Tina Bar that way. Over time, the rubber band(s) degrade, break and erode away, allowing the packets to separate a bit as found.

As I always say, I am not advocating for that theory, just considering the possibility.

Packets are not a banking term - only something Flyjack made up. The Seafirst bank did not prepare the money as Flyjack insists was done. The Seafirst employee that prepared the money for delivery to the plane was interviewed.

And if it was bundled as FJ claims, Cooper would not have been able to put such a large bundle in any pocket.
 

Offline georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2741 on: November 21, 2020, 03:50:39 AM »
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I think Flyjack's theory presents the possibility that the three packets may have been rubber banded together into one bundle and arrived at Tina Bar that way. Over time, the rubber band(s) degrade, break and erode away, allowing the packets to separate a bit as found.

As I always say, I am not advocating for that theory, just considering the possibility.

Packets are not a banking term - only something Flyjack made up. The Seafirst bank did not prepare the money as Flyjack insists was done. The Seafirst employee that prepared the money for delivery to the plane was interviewed.

And if it was bundled as FJ claims, Cooper would not have been able to put such a large bundle in any pocket.

Just never mind and forget it. FJ and others demand packets .... so packets it will be come whatever may come. From now on, everyone can wrap the money however they want, to suit their needs. Bundolas, packets, whatever . . . bands or no bands. Bailing wire. Scotch tape. Tina Mucklow's hose! The issue has been settled once and for all.

I feel so much better!    :congrats:

 :rofl:
« Last Edit: November 21, 2020, 03:58:43 AM by georger »
 

Offline DBfan57

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2742 on: November 21, 2020, 07:31:37 PM »
Does anyone know if they taped the conversation with Cooper at any point?  On the cockpit voice recorder?  If yes, was it released on this forum?
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2743 on: November 22, 2020, 02:37:21 AM »
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Does anyone know if they taped the conversation with Cooper at any point?  On the cockpit voice recorder?  If yes, was it released on this forum?

If Cooper's brief remarks over the Interphone were played over the cockpit speaker, as opposed to the headphones, then those remarks were probably recorded.  HOWEVER, in 1971 the CVR's had rather limited capability and probably overwrote the previous recordings about ever 30 or 45 minutes. 

Since it was about three full hours from the last words by Cooper over the Interphone until the aircraft landed in Reno, it is highly likely that the CVR remarks had been overwritten a number of times.
 

Offline Dfs346

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2744 on: November 22, 2020, 05:09:01 AM »
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<>in 1971 the CVR's had rather limited capability and probably overwrote the previous recordings about ever 30 or 45 minutes.

MSgt Wally Johnson, one of the two loadmasters on the sled test flight of 01.06.1972, indicated in his interview with the WSHS that aircraft N467US had a flight data recorder but no cockpit voice recorder:

WJ: "Jet aircraft are basically… all of them… work quite similar, you know, although the 727 that he skyjacked only had one black box. Now days they all have two, they have a voice and they have a mechanical."
WSHS: "Do you mind describing for us how the black box worked on that 727?"
WJ: "Yeah, it is all connected into the mechanical system. Everything is built in sections you know, one for environmental, the altimeters, stuff like that. The other one is how the engines operate and then they also have… sections of the dash one which covers the safety of the aircraft and that "

Source: Washington State Historical Society, document 2013.5.21.2, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login