Author Topic: General Questions About The Case  (Read 140624 times)

Offline Robert99

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1845 on: May 06, 2018, 12:37:32 AM »
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The crew was asking about maps and approach plates. it's very possible they were added to the list of demands..what would maps do for Cooper in the dark? it's not a GPS ....plus everyone believes he was familiar with the area and where he jumped?

I thought it was the crew that asked for maps/charts

me too -  :-\

To explain that ARINC message a bit, the airliner crew asked the NWA operation at SEATAC to have maps and charts (which were apparently identified in an earlier ARINC message)  sent out to the aircraft after it landed in Seattle.  NWA Seattle replied that they will have A and B charts, which they identified as International charts, sent out.  My guess is that the A means low altitude IFR enroute charts and the B means high altitude IFR enroute charts.  No mention is made of the geographical area covered by these charts.

NWA flight operations in Minneapolis told the airliner and NWA Seattle to "take the whole set of CFAR [air]craft maps with you".  Again, no mention is made of the geographical area covered by these charts.

This message was sent over the ARINC teletype network at 01:16 AM GMT on November 25th, which translates (by subtracting 8 hours) to 5:16 PM PST on November 24th.
 
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Offline RaoulDuke24

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1846 on: May 14, 2018, 01:16:27 PM »
What was the earliest point at which the public were informed of the news of the hijacking? Even more specifically, what's the earliest the public would have known that the hijacker had bailed from the plane and was on the loose?

Cooper didn't jump until after 8pm and the plane didn't land in Reno until well after that (11pm??), which is when authorities found out for sure that he had jumped.

So there's no way the 9:00 or 10:00 news could have reported that the hijacker was on the run. Was there anything on the news about the hijacking at all that night?

What was the Thursday morning newspaper coverage like? Huge story with a ton of coverage or a short blip (or nothing at all)? Being the day before Thanksgiving, many may have gone to press earlier that night (we always did on the eve of holidays when I worked in the newspaper business). So coverage may have been brief.

Anyone know what time the initial AP story hit the wire that day?

What about radio stations the next morning (or perhaps in the middle of the night even).

Just pondering how much time Cooper would have had to move about under the radar without the public knowing what was going on. And more specifically, at what point would the public have found out that the hijacker bailed out of the plane? How long was Cooper's window of opportunity before anyone in the general public would have known there was a hijacker on the loose?

EDIT:

After posting this I did some digging and found a story about the "DB" name mixup. The reporter taking responsibility for it says it was around 3:30 or 4pm that he wrote the story on deadline (which contributed to the name mixup), but it's a bit unclear as to which day he is referring to. Hard to believe that would have been on Wednesday seeing as how the passengers didn't get off the plane until at least that time (which is when it was discovered that "Dan Cooper" was the missing passenger).
« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 01:42:27 PM by RaoulDuke24 »
 

Offline georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1847 on: May 14, 2018, 01:58:07 PM »
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What was the earliest point at which the public were informed of the news of the hijacking? Even more specifically, what's the earliest the public would have known that the hijacker had bailed from the plane and was on the loose?



News people began arriving at the Seattle airport less than 30 mins after 305 alerted ATC that a hijacking was in progress.

Preparation/scrambling for searches at Portland etc. would have alerted people they thought Cooper had bailed near Woodland in the 8:00 o'clock hour before 305 had even landed at Reno.   
« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 02:03:25 PM by georger »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1848 on: May 14, 2018, 03:08:03 PM »
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What was the earliest point at which the public were informed of the news of the hijacking? Even more specifically, what's the earliest the public would have known that the hijacker had bailed from the plane and was on the loose?

Cooper didn't jump until after 8pm and the plane didn't land in Reno until well after that (11pm??), which is when authorities found out for sure that he had jumped.

So there's no way the 9:00 or 10:00 news could have reported that the hijacker was on the run. Was there anything on the news about the hijacking at all that night?

What was the Thursday morning newspaper coverage like? Huge story with a ton of coverage or a short blip (or nothing at all)? Being the day before Thanksgiving, many may have gone to press earlier that night (we always did on the eve of holidays when I worked in the newspaper business). So coverage may have been brief.

Anyone know what time the initial AP story hit the wire that day?

What about radio stations the next morning (or perhaps in the middle of the night even).

Just pondering how much time Cooper would have had to move about under the radar without the public knowing what was going on. And more specifically, at what point would the public have found out that the hijacker bailed out of the plane? How long was Cooper's window of opportunity before anyone in the general public would have known there was a hijacker on the loose?

EDIT:

After posting this I did some digging and found a story about the "DB" name mixup. The reporter taking responsibility for it says it was around 3:30 or 4pm that he wrote the story on deadline (which contributed to the name mixup), but it's a bit unclear as to which day he is referring to. Hard to believe that would have been on Wednesday seeing as how the passengers didn't get off the plane until at least that time (which is when it was discovered that "Dan Cooper" was the missing passenger).

Cooper passed the hijack note to Flo as the airliner was actually taxing out to the runway in Portland.  The flight crew was informed of the hijacking immediately after take off, just a couple of minutes after 3:00 PM.  The airliner flight crew notified NWA immediately, presumably with a message through the ARINC teletype system.  By about 3:15 or 3:30 PM, the airliner was in the Seattle area and had been handed off to SEATAC approach control which handled the holding until the money and parachutes were at the NWA station at SEATAC.

After the money and parachutes were at SEATAC, SEATAC approach control handed the flight off to the SEATAC tower which cleared it to land. The airliner landed after 5:00 PM.  I can't find the exact time at the moment, but it could have been as late as 5:30 or 5:40.

At the time the plane landed, the FAA, FBI, and NWA personnel were the only ones who had been involved directly.  But as Georger points out, everyone in the Pacific Northwest appears to have known about the hijacking by somewhere around 3:30 PM.  So someone apparently owed some favors to people in the media.

« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 03:10:43 PM by Robert99 »
 

Offline RaoulDuke24

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1849 on: May 14, 2018, 03:46:55 PM »
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What was the earliest point at which the public were informed of the news of the hijacking? Even more specifically, what's the earliest the public would have known that the hijacker had bailed from the plane and was on the loose?



News people began arriving at the Seattle airport less than 30 mins after 305 alerted ATC that a hijacking was in progress.

Preparation/scrambling for searches at Portland etc. would have alerted people they thought Cooper had bailed near Woodland in the 8:00 o'clock hour before 305 had even landed at Reno.   

Now that you mention it, I do recall seeing footage of some passengers being interviewed by the media at Sea-Tac; I'm guessing shortly after giving their witness testimonies. So it's fair to assume there was plenty of coverage on the news that evening. If people were aware of the hijacking by 3:30 or 4:00, it must have been breaking news that interrupted regularly scheduled TV programming in addition to being all over the radio. If that's true, that news traveled really fast for being 1971. Note is handed to Tina around 3:00 and it was already dominating the news just 30 minutes later? For an era without social media and smartphones, that's awfully impressive. 

The earliest reports would not have included information about a bailout though, because the bailout hadn't happened yet. With a jump not being made until after 8pm (and not a positive confirmation of such until well after that), the news that the hijacker was now on the ground and possibly on the run may not have really surfaced until the morning papers hit the doorsteps. Although I suppose it's possible the Wednesday night late news may have had some info about the bailout, depending on when word of the bailout made its rounds.

I was just trying to peg down a general time frame for which Cooper could have moved about the area before any locals knew the hijacker was on the ground and may have become suspicious of someone (if of course he survived the jump and was healthy enough to get on the move).




« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 03:55:27 PM by RaoulDuke24 »
 

Offline georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1850 on: May 14, 2018, 05:49:10 PM »
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What was the earliest point at which the public were informed of the news of the hijacking? Even more specifically, what's the earliest the public would have known that the hijacker had bailed from the plane and was on the loose?



News people began arriving at the Seattle airport less than 30 mins after 305 alerted ATC that a hijacking was in progress.

Preparation/scrambling for searches at Portland etc. would have alerted people they thought Cooper had bailed near Woodland in the 8:00 o'clock hour before 305 had even landed at Reno.   

Now that you mention it, I do recall seeing footage of some passengers being interviewed by the media at Sea-Tac; I'm guessing shortly after giving their witness testimonies. So it's fair to assume there was plenty of coverage on the news that evening. If people were aware of the hijacking by 3:30 or 4:00, it must have been breaking news that interrupted regularly scheduled TV programming in addition to being all over the radio. If that's true, that news traveled really fast for being 1971. Note is handed to Tina around 3:00 and it was already dominating the news just 30 minutes later? For an era without social media and smartphones, that's awfully impressive. 

The earliest reports would not have included information about a bailout though, because the bailout hadn't happened yet. With a jump not being made until after 8pm (and not a positive confirmation of such until well after that), the news that the hijacker was now on the ground and possibly on the run may not have really surfaced until the morning papers hit the doorsteps. Although I suppose it's possible the Wednesday night late news may have had some info about the bailout, depending on when word of the bailout made its rounds.

I was just trying to peg down a general time frame for which Cooper could have moved about the area before any locals knew the hijacker was on the ground and may have become suspicious of someone (if of course he survived the jump and was healthy enough to get on the move).

Did the whole population of the Northwest know Cooper had bailed (8:12-15) and where precisely: No. But, for example, citizens at Wilhelm Trucking in Portland were following news reports flowing in and passing that info along to citizens through truckers ... the Manager of the Troutdale Airport was following news reports eg. "we were told (when) 305 had crossed the Columbia on the west side of Portland and several pilots offered assistance in the search but we declined to get involved  ..." (all before 305 had landed at Reno).     
« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 05:56:15 PM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1851 on: May 15, 2018, 03:59:25 AM »
Bill Mitchell told me that his mother was watching TV coverage of the skyjacking while she was cooking, and 305 was still circling Seattle.

I've heard rumors and reports that the public was advised not to pick up hitchhikers through the evening hours of Wednesday, Nov 24th, but I have not been able to confirm that occurrence.
 

Offline RaoulDuke24

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1852 on: May 15, 2018, 12:07:56 PM »
Thanks for the replies. Sounds like word of the hijacking hit the streets well before Cooper may have. I suppose local news rooms would have had a police scanner on and would have heard some communication of it that way.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1853 on: May 15, 2018, 12:27:30 PM »
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Thanks for the replies. Sounds like word of the hijacking hit the streets well before Cooper may have. I suppose local news rooms would have had a police scanner on and would have heard some communication of it that way.

At least the initial communications were on the aviation VHF frequencies and, even at worse, there shouldn't have been much chatter on the local police frequencies since they were only indirectly involved.  This whole thing suggests that the media was deliberately alerted by some law enforcement agencies.
 

Offline georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1854 on: May 15, 2018, 01:33:20 PM »
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Thanks for the replies. Sounds like word of the hijacking hit the streets well before Cooper may have. I suppose local news rooms would have had a police scanner on and would have heard some communication of it that way.

At least the initial communications were on the aviation VHF frequencies and, even at worse, there shouldn't have been much chatter on the local police frequencies since they were only indirectly involved.  This whole thing suggests that the media was deliberately alerted by some law enforcement agencies.

.....  honey Ill be home late - we have a hijacking going on. Oh!? When did that happen. About 3 pm. OK, do you want me to hold dinner for you? No, I have no idea when Illl get outta here. Ok. I;ll let everyone at church know! Ok. 
« Last Edit: May 15, 2018, 01:33:57 PM by georger »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1855 on: May 15, 2018, 01:41:33 PM »
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Thanks for the replies. Sounds like word of the hijacking hit the streets well before Cooper may have. I suppose local news rooms would have had a police scanner on and would have heard some communication of it that way.

At least the initial communications were on the aviation VHF frequencies and, even at worse, there shouldn't have been much chatter on the local police frequencies since they were only indirectly involved.  This whole thing suggests that the media was deliberately alerted by some law enforcement agencies.

.....  honey Ill be home late - we have a hijacking going on. Oh!? When did that happen. About 3 pm. OK, do you want me to hold dinner for you? No, I have no idea when Illl get outta here. Ok. I;ll let everyone at church know! Ok.

After notifying his wife, or maybe even before, a direct call to his favorite TV reporter would be made.
 
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Offline Kermit

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1856 on: May 15, 2018, 06:11:56 PM »
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What was the earliest point at which the public were informed of the news of the hijacking? Even more specifically, what's the earliest the public would have known that the hijacker had bailed from the plane and was on the loose?



News people began arriving at the Seattle airport less than 30 mins after 305 alerted ATC that a hijacking was in progress.

Preparation/scrambling for searches at Portland etc. would have alerted people they thought Cooper had bailed near Woodland in the 8:00 o'clock hour before 305 had even landed at Reno.   

Now that you mention it, I do recall seeing footage of some passengers being interviewed by the media at Sea-Tac; I'm guessing shortly after giving their witness testimonies. So it's fair to assume there was plenty of coverage on the news that evening. If people were aware of the hijacking by 3:30 or 4:00, it must have been breaking news that interrupted regularly scheduled TV programming in addition to being all over the radio. If that's true, that news traveled really fast for being 1971. Note is handed to Tina around 3:00 and it was already dominating the news just 30 minutes later? For an era without social media and smartphones, that's awfully impressive. 

The earliest reports would not have included information about a bailout though, because the bailout hadn't happened yet. With a jump not being made until after 8pm (and not a positive confirmation of such until well after that), the news that the hijacker was now on the ground and possibly on the run may not have really surfaced until the morning papers hit the doorsteps. Although I suppose it's possible the Wednesday night late news may have had some info about the bailout, depending on when word of the bailout made its rounds.

I was just trying to peg down a general time frame for which Cooper could have moved about the area before any locals knew the hijacker was on the ground and may have become suspicious of someone (if of course he survived the jump and was healthy enough to get on the move).

Did the whole population of the Northwest know Cooper had bailed (8:12-15) and where precisely: No. But, for example, citizens at Wilhelm Trucking in Portland were following news reports flowing in and passing that info along to citizens through truckers ... the Manager of the Troutdale Airport was following news reports eg. "we were told (when) 305 had crossed the Columbia on the west side of Portland and several pilots offered assistance in the search but we declined to get involved  ..." (all before 305 had landed at Reno).     

Very interesting question as it gives an insight into how much time Coop might have had to make his escape undetected if he indeed did survive. Since the forum poll shows us that a majority of forum posters believe he survived, this is a huge question that needs an answer ! Since the caper originated in Portland and flight landed in Seattle, it was huge news especially in those 2 cities. I lived in Portland at the time and it was all over the evening newscasts at the time. However Iím not aware of much precise news telling me of his possible whereabouts ? Nobody was told to head over to the Ariel area ! However itís interesting that Rudie Wilhelm trucking company comes up in the conversation. I like the lead but think they have the wrong Trucking company. It might be a good idea to,check the KGW news archives and see it they have any more details on newscasts on evening of nov 24,1971. One has to remember that we didnít have 24 hour news in 1971. Lol
 

Offline georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1857 on: May 15, 2018, 11:27:02 PM »
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What was the earliest point at which the public were informed of the news of the hijacking? Even more specifically, what's the earliest the public would have known that the hijacker had bailed from the plane and was on the loose?



News people began arriving at the Seattle airport less than 30 mins after 305 alerted ATC that a hijacking was in progress.

Preparation/scrambling for searches at Portland etc. would have alerted people they thought Cooper had bailed near Woodland in the 8:00 o'clock hour before 305 had even landed at Reno.   

Now that you mention it, I do recall seeing footage of some passengers being interviewed by the media at Sea-Tac; I'm guessing shortly after giving their witness testimonies. So it's fair to assume there was plenty of coverage on the news that evening. If people were aware of the hijacking by 3:30 or 4:00, it must have been breaking news that interrupted regularly scheduled TV programming in addition to being all over the radio. If that's true, that news traveled really fast for being 1971. Note is handed to Tina around 3:00 and it was already dominating the news just 30 minutes later? For an era without social media and smartphones, that's awfully impressive. 

The earliest reports would not have included information about a bailout though, because the bailout hadn't happened yet. With a jump not being made until after 8pm (and not a positive confirmation of such until well after that), the news that the hijacker was now on the ground and possibly on the run may not have really surfaced until the morning papers hit the doorsteps. Although I suppose it's possible the Wednesday night late news may have had some info about the bailout, depending on when word of the bailout made its rounds.

I was just trying to peg down a general time frame for which Cooper could have moved about the area before any locals knew the hijacker was on the ground and may have become suspicious of someone (if of course he survived the jump and was healthy enough to get on the move).

Did the whole population of the Northwest know Cooper had bailed (8:12-15) and where precisely: No. But, for example, citizens at Wilhelm Trucking in Portland were following news reports flowing in and passing that info along to citizens through truckers ... the Manager of the Troutdale Airport was following news reports eg. "we were told (when) 305 had crossed the Columbia on the west side of Portland and several pilots offered assistance in the search but we declined to get involved  ..." (all before 305 had landed at Reno).     

Very interesting question as it gives an insight into how much time Coop might have had to make his escape undetected if he indeed did survive. Since the forum poll shows us that a majority of forum posters believe he survived, this is a huge question that needs an answer ! Since the caper originated in Portland and flight landed in Seattle, it was huge news especially in those 2 cities. I lived in Portland at the time and it was all over the evening newscasts at the time. However Iím not aware of much precise news telling me of his possible whereabouts ? Nobody was told to head over to the Ariel area ! However itís interesting that Rudie Wilhelm trucking company comes up in the conversation. I like the lead but think they have the wrong Trucking company. It might be a good idea to,check the KGW news archives and see it they have any more details on newscasts on evening of nov 24,1971. One has to remember that we didnít have 24 hour news in 1971. Lol

The only name I ever had was 'Wilhelm Trucking'. Janet and her husband worked there - Janet if you remember contacted the FBI saying she and her husband witnessed what may have been the plane going over, and a flare or fire dropping from the plane and drifting westward. Another employee of the trucking company surfaces in this story. He and other truckers were exchanging news of the hijacking and informing others. The network widened to include church members of two of the employees. One of those church members related later: 'the plane went over here and it was on fire!'.  ;) The lady with that news got the report from her son who worked at Wilhelm Trucking.

It would have been interesting to collect personal reports about where and how, different people heard of the hijacking on the day, in the State of Washington. 
« Last Edit: May 15, 2018, 11:31:06 PM by georger »
 

Offline Kermit

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1858 on: May 16, 2018, 02:03:56 AM »
If youíre talking about Wilhelm Trucking , trust me ... it was Rudie Wilhemn trucking ! Rudie started the company back in the 1920ís and was huge for almost a 100 years in Portland, Milwaukee area. I pay little attention to all these wild claims of planes crashing or Men with flares falling out of the sky etc. etc. The FBI CHASED DOWN 1000ís of these preposterous stories.
 
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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1859 on: May 16, 2018, 08:36:25 AM »
Kermit. Did the authorities ever discuss the trains? Did Skychefs cater the railroads? Even with DNA or photos, this legend will always live on. It does not want to be solved. Any new suspect will just add to the legend. We will see a new suspect soon. Records will show a heavy, heavy smoker, on the railroad, who would have been very familiar with Benzadrine to stay awake. Dyed hair. Matches Mitchellís testimony and Guntherís book.

Dice. ďI'm not with the Agency, Mr. Garrison, and I assume if you've come this far, what I have to say interests you. But I'm not going to name names, or tell you who or what I represent. Except to say--you're close, you're closer than you think..#
 
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