DB COOPER

General Category => DB Cooper => Topic started by: Shutter on April 09, 2014, 07:03:34 AM

Title: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on April 09, 2014, 07:03:34 AM
Feel free to ask any questions about the case.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: sailshaw on December 07, 2014, 11:05:32 AM
General Question

What time did DB jump from the airplane?  The FBI thinks it was about 8:12 pm and when we talked with Ralph Hatley, he thought it was about 8:15 pm. That later time would have put DB closer to the Columbia river. Did DB splash in the Columbia? The body should have shown up by now so I don't think he splashed and Sheridan is still living in California. If we could only get him to talk about it!

Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on December 07, 2014, 12:40:21 PM
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General Question

What time did DB jump from the airplane?  The FBI thinks it was about 8:12 pm and when we talked with Ralph Hatley, he thought it was about 8:15 pm. That later time would have put DB closer to the Columbia river. Did DB splash in the Columbia? The body should have shown up by now so I don't think he splashed and Sheridan is still living in California. If we could only get him to talk about it!

Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com

The 8:15 PM time is probably the most accurate with the present information.  The papers from the NWA people at Seattle indicate that the voice transmission of the "23 DME miles south of Portland (referring to what is now the Battleground VORTAC)" was at 8:18 PM and not the 8:22 PM time hack on the teletype version that went through the ARINC system.

Perhaps some more accurate information will become available one of these days.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 07, 2014, 02:52:55 PM
Idea for questions....

Lets try this. Tom Kaye is a member here. he's not a regular poster but I'm sure we could set up a time for several of you to be  here to ask him any questions you might want to ask? Brian Ingram is also a member here, but only posted once. I've hesitated not wanting to breach his privacy, but would like to hear from him as well. I'm sure we can set something up with Tom without any problems.

Thought  :-\
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on December 07, 2014, 04:44:42 PM
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Idea for questions....

Lets try this. Tom Kaye is a member here. he's not a regular poster but I'm sure we could set up a time for several of you to be  here to ask him any questions you might want to ask? Brian Ingram is also a member here, but only posted once. I've hesitated not wanting to breach his privacy, but would like to hear from him as well. I'm sure we can set something up with Tom without any problems.

Thought  :-\

I would definitely have questions for Kaye. I'll go through his website and see if I can come up with a list.

Here's one of my major boggles: How did Cooper get to the airport in first place? The FBI checked the parking lot, interviewed cab drivers and checked with bus and train people. If Cooper stashed a car away, why was he trying to jump over Seattle and not Portland? If someone dropped him off, that person should have come forward years ago. If he lived in Portland, why was he trying to get out of the plane right away. How thorough was the FBI in investigating the busses/trains/cabbies angle? Did Cooper fly in earlier in the day or the day before? Did the FBI look at local hotels?

Another on of my big problems is the apparent lack of practical experiments. I know a few DZ guys did Cooper-like jumps with various configurations, but has anyone tried to do a jump with 1) a reserve parachute with no D rings to attach it 2) while holding a suitcase 3) testing how much paracord it would take actually secure the money. Etc. Etc.

[I would even say I find the Tina bar find boring, Carr's belief a 'hydrologist' can help him determine where Cooper landed is almost laughable].
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on December 07, 2014, 05:13:38 PM
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Idea for questions....

Lets try this. Tom Kaye is a member here. he's not a regular poster but I'm sure we could set up a time for several of you to be  here to ask him any questions you might want to ask? Brian Ingram is also a member here, but only posted once. I've hesitated not wanting to breach his privacy, but would like to hear from him as well. I'm sure we can set something up with Tom without any problems.

Thought  :-\

This forum is getting spread out into so many sub-categories it's become hard to follow ...  things that could well be happening under existing categories. Pretty soon we will have sub sections within sub categories etc.  ... all of which fitted under some general category, in the first place.

Since Tom will not post here the guy needs to address Tom on his own territory which is Tom's website.

The guy also needs to avail himself of the search function at Dropzpone for prior posts on specific topics otherwise we will be repeating the entire history of the world here! (each under a new-new sub category under a previous sub-category, under a previous general heading .... )

Im worn out just typing it all@!

And he still has not explained why he wants an "ectro-chemist"?  One from Case, MIT. Cal-Tech, Dow, or Baxter Chemical?????  >:(   

Hopefully the guy can communicate with Tom and Blevins about elctro-chemistry of ??? and come back here and share what they said ... for the rest of us to ponder over ? In a new sub category?




 
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on December 07, 2014, 05:22:36 PM
Quote
The guy also needs to avail himself of the search function at Dropzpone for prior posts on specific topics otherwise we will be repeating the entire history of the world here! (each under a new-new sub category under a previous sub-category, under a previous general heading .... )

With all due respect...

If you search "Kaye" on the DZ forum, you get some fifty pages of search results. It's now useless even as a repository of knowledge. If someone had been collecting information in real time, and had published an indexed book of just the "good" information, I would read that. I spent months reading through that forum, and it's just not worth the effort. You can't find what you need. With Blevins and Jo Weber producing about half the content, it's... just not fair to tell people "read the DZ forum." It's torture.

The real resources are the people who were active in that forum.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 07, 2014, 05:27:23 PM
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Quote
The guy also needs to avail himself of the search function at Dropzpone for prior posts on specific topics otherwise we will be repeating the entire history of the world here! (each under a new-new sub category under a previous sub-category, under a previous general heading .... )

With all due respect...

If you search "Kaye" on the DZ forum, you get some fifty pages of search results. It's now useless even as a repository of knowledge. If someone had been collecting information in real time, and had published an indexed book of just the "good" information, I would read that. I spent months reading through that forum, and it's just not worth the effort. You can't find what you need. With Blevins and Jo Weber producing about half the content, it's... just not fair to tell people "read the DZ forum." It's torture.

The real resources are the people who were active in that forum.

I can agree with that. Georger is also right in spreading the threads out. I will contact Tom and ask him to stop by. PM me with any questions you have and I'll compile them into a questionnaire for him to respond too. I'll post it under the Tina bar thread.

Fair :-\
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 07, 2014, 05:32:52 PM
The problems I'm seeing in this topic area is questions that could be asked on the existing topics. Sailshaw could of easily asked his question under the Flight path thread. it's hard to narrow down a basic question while we have existing areas where they can be asked already in place. perhaps this topic should be removed, or locked for the time being?

Thoughts?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on December 07, 2014, 05:47:53 PM
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The problems I'm seeing in this topic area is questions that could be asked on the existing topics. Sailshaw could of easily asked his question under the Flight path thread. it's hard to narrow down a basic question while we have existing areas where they can be asked already in place. perhaps this topic should be removed, or locked for the time being?

Thoughts?

Most, but not all, of my questions could be put into categories. However, I think a case can be made for having a Q&A thread like this so people can go to one place to seek answers to specific questions without changing the trajectories of existing threads. It's something I noticed on DZ, there would be a few pages of good information, and it would get derailed by something like a question or inane comment and the discussion stops and devolves to meaninglessness.

Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on December 07, 2014, 05:53:52 PM
And really, if I want to be lectured about how "we already covered that question eight years ago", I want it to be in the kiddie pool, not a major thread.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 07, 2014, 05:55:57 PM
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The problems I'm seeing in this topic area is questions that could be asked on the existing topics. Sailshaw could of easily asked his question under the Flight path thread. it's hard to narrow down a basic question while we have existing areas where they can be asked already in place. perhaps this topic should be removed, or locked for the time being?

Thoughts?

Most, but not all, of my questions could be put into categories. However, I think a case can be made for having a Q&A thread like this so people can go to one place to seek answers to specific questions without changing the trajectories of existing threads. It's something I noticed on DZ, there would be a few pages of good information, and it would get derailed by something like a question or inane comment and the discussion stops and devolves to meaninglessness.

Agreed again, I don't want that happening here. I want to take advantage of the "Fanfics" you see at the top of the forum, or on the menu bar. I haven't figured it out as of yet, but it's a good way to store basic facts, and stories about the case that will not get lost in the threads.

DZ has had the problem with personal attacks going back into the original locked thread. it's now nothing but discussion about this forum, or what one poster thinks about his solid case of a suspect being Cooper. It's controlled by basically by two posters. the well has basically dried up..... 8)
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on December 07, 2014, 06:04:58 PM
I've said my peace. I trust in Shutter.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on December 07, 2014, 09:25:10 PM
So here's a question I have that doesn't fit anywhere:

Today ties aren't universal. Most people who wear ties regularly, knot them properly. I know of nobody who wears ties and mixes knotted and clip-on ties. The only people I know who wear clip-on ties are kids working as bus boys in restaurants.

When ties were more universal, did people regularly buy both for convenience?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: EVickiW on December 07, 2014, 10:07:12 PM
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So here's a question I have that doesn't fit anywhere:

Today ties aren't universal. Most people who wear ties regularly, knot them properly. I know of nobody who wears ties and mixes knotted and clip-on ties. The only people I know who wear clip-on ties are kids working as bus boys in restaurants.

When ties were more universal, did people regularly buy both for convenience?

Common in the late 60's and to this day, bartenders and servers working in the more prestigious restaurants/nightclubs, law enforcement and probation officers wore clip on ties. They sell them at the uniform shop that supply uniforms to the St. Paul police and Ramsey County Sheriff's deputies.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 07, 2014, 10:11:23 PM
Quote
So here's a question I have that doesn't fit anywhere:


 Actually it could go under "Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case"

I believe the tie is a clue, and the tie is also evidence. they are in harmony together  :-*
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on December 07, 2014, 10:23:05 PM
...

 :-[

...

Technically, everything is a clue...
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on December 07, 2014, 11:23:34 PM
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So here's a question I have that doesn't fit anywhere:

Today ties aren't universal. Most people who wear ties regularly, knot them properly. I know of nobody who wears ties and mixes knotted and clip-on ties. The only people I know who wear clip-on ties are kids working as bus boys in restaurants.

When ties were more universal, did people regularly buy both for convenience?

... and with that you have just nailed one of the reasons Himmelsbach thought/suggested... "he might be a food service worker". That along with Flo's comment he had olive skin and looked Latin to me.

I guess one of the questions is how much can you read into a clip on tie? Kids in highschool bands used to wear clip on ties. People in ROTC. Hell even FBI agents!  :) :) :) :) :) :) :)  My grandma wore one once - after opening grandpa's Christmas present by mistake!
 :) 
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 07, 2014, 11:31:50 PM
Quote
"he might be a food service worker".

Very polite, and tipped well too!!! ;D
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on December 07, 2014, 11:36:31 PM
The tie has latent evidence like titanium, stuff from medication packing, match particles and other metals. So the tie didn't belong to a busboy who was milling pure titanium in the late 1960's. The tie's original owner wasn't a bartender. I don't think the tie picked up spiral titanium particles sitting in evidence. I guess it depends on how much faith you have in Tom Kaye, but his analysis is important. If he's right about the scarcity of pure titanium, then the tie has a big story to tell, not a small one.

To me, Kaye's evidence makes sense. If the guy was working in a shop machining parts from pure titanium, the owner would want a clip-on tie that wouldn't kill him if it got caught in a lathe.

If Cooper bought the tie at an estate sale, that still puts Cooper in one of a few regions where they had shops likes this.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 07, 2014, 11:43:31 PM
You might want to swing over to the Tina Bar thread....Tom is here now... ;D
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on December 08, 2014, 12:00:32 AM
 :(

Now I have to read the Citizen Sleuths website again before I can go to bed.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 08, 2014, 12:03:25 AM
I guess something came up. he left the building  :(

I'm sure he will return to answer some questions for us....hang in there  ;D
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on December 08, 2014, 12:14:15 AM
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So here's a question I have that doesn't fit anywhere:

Today ties aren't universal. Most people who wear ties regularly, knot them properly. I know of nobody who wears ties and mixes knotted and clip-on ties. The only people I know who wear clip-on ties are kids working as bus boys in restaurants.

When ties were more universal, did people regularly buy both for convenience?

The answer to your last question is "no".  In the 1960s, clip-on ties could be bought in drug stores for two dollars or less.  Note:  I AM aware that Cooper's tie has been identified as a JC Penny product which is relatively upscale for such a thing.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on December 08, 2014, 12:22:56 AM
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The tie has latent evidence like titanium, stuff from medication packing, match particles and other metals. So the tie didn't belong to a busboy who was milling pure titanium in the late 1960's. The tie's original owner wasn't a bartender. I don't think the tie picked up spiral titanium particles sitting in evidence. I guess it depends on how much faith you have in Tom Kaye, but his analysis is important. If he's right about the scarcity of pure titanium, then the tie has a big story to tell, not a small one.

To me, Kaye's evidence makes sense. If the guy was working in a shop machining parts from pure titanium, the owner would want a clip-on tie that wouldn't kill him if it got caught in a lathe.

If Cooper bought the tie at an estate sale, that still puts Cooper in one of a few regions where they had shops likes this.

For ever picture you can produce of someone in a machine shop wearing a clip-on tie, Tom Kaye can produce a picture of a machine shop employee wearing a fully knotted tie.  So the machine shop illustration is basically a wash.

However, I can definitely understand why a policeman would wear one since it would be one less thing that the bad guys could grab during a fight.  I imagine that most field policewomen wear their hair in a bun for the same reason.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: nmiwrecks on December 08, 2014, 12:49:50 AM
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For ever picture you can produce of someone in a machine shop wearing a clip-on tie, Tom Kaye can produce a picture of a machine shop employee wearing a fully knotted tie.  So the machine shop illustration is basically a wash.
Just a simple question that will hopefully inspire conversation with differing opinions: Were would the Cooper suspect have most likely built the briefcase bomb?  His workshop at his place of employment, or his apartment or motel room? 
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 08, 2014, 02:49:40 AM
Managing this site:

Some thoughts.

As this forum spreads out like the Platte River (an inch deep and a mile wide), it might behoove us to have one line of commentary that can be flagged as to its central theme. That way, when somebody wants to see all the goodies on titanium they can type that into a search engine and get the posts.

Shut-Man, can this sucker do dat?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Parrotheadvol on December 08, 2014, 12:10:34 PM
I've worn a tie 3 times in the last month (job interviews, been out of work since September). Before that, I can count on one hand the number of times I have worn a tie in the ten years previous. I can't even tie one. Cooper may have been someone like me and the clip on, needed for him to blend in, was simply the easier choice.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on December 08, 2014, 01:57:24 PM
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For ever picture you can produce of someone in a machine shop wearing a clip-on tie, Tom Kaye can produce a picture of a machine shop employee wearing a fully knotted tie.  So the machine shop illustration is basically a wash.
Just a simple question that will hopefully inspire conversation with differing opinions: Were would the Cooper suspect have most likely built the briefcase bomb?  His workshop at his place of employment, or his apartment or motel room?

If it can be done without getting this list placed on a terrorist watch list, just exactly what is involved in building a bomb such as Cooper claimed he had?  The only thing I remember being described by the people who actually saw it is that there was a battery, what was probably road flares, and a lot of wires with two of them having an exposed end.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on December 08, 2014, 02:49:28 PM
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For ever picture you can produce of someone in a machine shop wearing a clip-on tie, Tom Kaye can produce a picture of a machine shop employee wearing a fully knotted tie.  So the machine shop illustration is basically a wash.
Just a simple question that will hopefully inspire conversation with differing opinions: Were would the Cooper suspect have most likely built the briefcase bomb?  His workshop at his place of employment, or his apartment or motel room?

If it can be done without getting this list placed on a terrorist watch list, just exactly what is involved in building a bomb such as Cooper claimed he had?  The only thing I remember being described by the people who actually saw it is that there was a battery, what was probably road flares, and a lot of wires with two of them having an exposed end.

By all accounts it was the illusion of a bomb - not a bomb. Road flares vs. dynamite. Of course it's all conjecture however flares can be seen in most weather conditions from a distance. Seems like a simple formula to me!

To someone with parachuting experience and a good grasp of where he is, based on eyes looking for lights, the only real hazard is the geography below. Once again it's a simple formula with the advantage to Cooper vs. those trying to find him somewhere wherever 'somewhere' is in the last five or fifteen minutes at 200 mph!

The advantage is definitely on Cooper's side.   

 
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 08, 2014, 05:16:39 PM
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For ever picture you can produce of someone in a machine shop wearing a clip-on tie, Tom Kaye can produce a picture of a machine shop employee wearing a fully knotted tie.  So the machine shop illustration is basically a wash.
Just a simple question that will hopefully inspire conversation with differing opinions: Were would the Cooper suspect have most likely built the briefcase bomb?  His workshop at his place of employment, or his apartment or motel room?

If it can be done without getting this list placed on a terrorist watch list, just exactly what is involved in building a bomb such as Cooper claimed he had?  The only thing I remember being described by the people who actually saw it is that there was a battery, what was probably road flares, and a lot of wires with two of them having an exposed end.

I would guess he had a electronic detonator, it could only be that if it was attached to a battery. connecting the final wire ran in a series would complete the circuit setting off the bomb. the problem I see is most dynamite is brown. it's mainly red in cartoons, and movies. there is red dynamite, but I don't think he had a real boomer...

The best test now would be showing Florence a photo of a stick of dynamite, and one road flare and see which she picks?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on December 08, 2014, 05:26:35 PM
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For ever picture you can produce of someone in a machine shop wearing a clip-on tie, Tom Kaye can produce a picture of a machine shop employee wearing a fully knotted tie.  So the machine shop illustration is basically a wash.
Just a simple question that will hopefully inspire conversation with differing opinions: Were would the Cooper suspect have most likely built the briefcase bomb?  His workshop at his place of employment, or his apartment or motel room?

If it can be done without getting this list placed on a terrorist watch list, just exactly what is involved in building a bomb such as Cooper claimed he had?  The only thing I remember being described by the people who actually saw it is that there was a battery, what was probably road flares, and a lot of wires with two of them having an exposed end.

I would guess he had a electronic detonator, it could only be that if it was attached to a battery. connecting the final wire ran in a series would complete the circuit setting off the bomb. the problem I see is most dynamite is brown. it's mainly red in cartoons, and movies. there is red dynamite, but I don't think he had a real boomer...

The best test now would be showing Florence a photo of a stick of dynamite, and one road flare and see which she picks?

No one reported seeing anything that could have been a detonator or even a fuse.  But Tina did report that Cooper was very careless in how he handled those two wires with exposed ends.  Supposedly, if those wires had touched the "bomb" would have exploded.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 08, 2014, 05:30:59 PM
Most detonators go inside the dynamite. the two wires would complete the circuit as mentioned, and boom, if it was real.

The old school way was with the plunger box that sent an electrical charge to the dynamite.....
Perhaps the proper term would be blasting caps.

Here you can hardly see the blasting cap. I doubt anyone would have noticed if it had one.... (note the color of the dynamite)
It's actually a clock. they used the same print paper for dynamite, and wood dowels.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 08, 2014, 05:40:59 PM
The blasting caps need an electrical charge to explode, it's small, but it sets off the dynamite. you would wire the battery to the the charge just like hooking up your car battery, but you can't complete the circuit, so you use a switch, or break the circuit, or as many have seen they used a plunger that created electricity while pushing down on the plunger.

It's possible it was real if Cooper kept putting his hands inside the briefcase as Mitchell has claimed. he might have been worried about something going wrong?


(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/65/Dynamite-5.svg/220px-Dynamite-5.svg.png)

A) Sawdust (or any other type of absorbent material) soaked in nitroglycerin.
B) Protective coating surrounding the explosive material.
C) Blasting cap.
D) Electrical cable (or fuse) connected to the blasting cap.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on December 09, 2014, 12:31:43 AM
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The blasting caps need an electrical charge to explode, it's small, but it sets off the dynamite. you would wire the battery to the the charge just like hooking up your car battery, but you can't complete the circuit, so you use a switch, or break the circuit, or as many have seen they used a plunger that created electricity while pushing down on the plunger.

It's possible it was real if Cooper kept putting his hands inside the briefcase as Mitchell has claimed. he might have been worried about something going wrong?


(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/65/Dynamite-5.svg/220px-Dynamite-5.svg.png)

A) Sawdust (or any other type of absorbent material) soaked in nitroglycerin.
B) Protective coating surrounding the explosive material.
C) Blasting cap.
D) Electrical cable (or fuse) connected to the blasting cap.

Shutter, is this the way it was done in 1971?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 09, 2014, 06:40:00 AM
Quote
Shutter, is this the way it was done in 1971?

I don't think much has changed over the years it's a pretty basic function allowing little room for improvement much like a "Black Cat" firecracker. "If it's not broke, don't fix it" ?

They have changed the way it's detonated by using detonator cord as a high speed fuse detonating at 4 miles a second for multiple charges.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Parrotheadvol on December 09, 2014, 12:15:48 PM
Back in the mid 90s I had a job for a few months with an explosive company and worked with dynamite. Based on that experience, I've always thought Coopers bomb was probably a fake.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on December 09, 2014, 03:54:18 PM
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Back in the mid 90s I had a job for a few months with an explosive company and worked with dynamite. Based on that experience, I've always thought Coopers bomb was probably a fake.

Would a dog trained to detect explosives 'bark' at the presence of road flares?

Were explosives-dogs taken on board at Reno? (I believe they were). How did they react? (And why isn;t that in Geoff Gray's book?)

 
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 09, 2014, 04:25:38 PM
The dogs were busy eating the crew's dinner up in First Class, according to Rataczak.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on December 09, 2014, 04:51:08 PM
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The dogs were busy eating the crew's dinner up in First Class, according to Rataczak.

That's what Ive been told too!

I'm guessing explosives dogs would 'signal' at the presence of road flares, but it's just a guess ...


Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 09, 2014, 04:54:33 PM
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Back in the mid 90s I had a job for a few months with an explosive company and worked with dynamite. Based on that experience, I've always thought Coopers bomb was probably a fake.

Would a dog trained to detect explosives 'bark' at the presence of road flares?

Were explosives-dogs taken on board at Reno? (I believe they were). How did they react? (And why isn;t that in Geoff Gray's book?)


I think the bomb would still have to be on the plane for the dogs to sniff one out. I don't know what's in road flares....
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on December 09, 2014, 05:28:59 PM
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Back in the mid 90s I had a job for a few months with an explosive company and worked with dynamite. Based on that experience, I've always thought Coopers bomb was probably a fake.

Would a dog trained to detect explosives 'bark' at the presence of road flares?

Were explosives-dogs taken on board at Reno? (I believe they were). How did they react? (And why isn;t that in Geoff Gray's book?)


I think the bomb would still have to be on the plane for the dogs to sniff one out. I don't know what's in road flares....

I don't know what is in road flares either, but whatever it was obviously took second place to the crew's lunch which was probably roast beef sandwiches (with ham being another good possibility).
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 09, 2014, 09:42:01 PM
I think Bill said it was tacos. I'll have to check my notes....
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on December 09, 2014, 09:54:24 PM
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I think Bill said it was tacos. I'll have to check my notes....

NWA serving tacos in Seattle in 1971?  Not likely.  But maybe there just happened to be a tacos franchise close to the NWA gates. ;)
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on December 10, 2014, 11:38:23 PM
Here's another round of questions. I accept Cooper was inspired by the failed Paul Cini hijacking and was able to engineer his heist in a relatively short period of time (11 days) using information he already had. So, he could easily put on a parachute harness before the Cini hijacking. He had to be familiar with air travel around SeaTac, and might have been a frequent flyer into the area. I also think he might have been a regular Northwest passenger. He would have flown an airline he was most comfortable with, as I believe he would have made many decisions based on personal comfort (which is why I believe he was wearing his typical wardrobe for the flight).

But what kind of piloting experience could he have had? When asked about flap settings, he said fifteen degrees. I'm not a pilot, so I had to look it up, flaps start creating more drag than lift at 10 degrees. Did Cooper guess at "15 degrees" because he knew this fact? Could he have learned the flap settings on a 727 without working at Boeing? Did he revert to knowledge from his own piloting lessons? Are there common contemporary private aircraft with similar flap settings? Same deal with having the landing gear down, he would have to have some knowledge of aeronautics before the Cini hijacking. What is the minimum amount of experience Cooper could have had based on these facts?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on December 11, 2014, 12:03:16 AM
Is it safe to assume there was no video recording inside or outside  the terminal at SeaTac ?
 
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on December 11, 2014, 01:02:46 AM
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Here's another round of questions. I accept Cooper was inspired by the failed Paul Cini hijacking and was able to engineer his heist in a relatively short period of time (11 days) using information he already had. So, he could easily put on a parachute harness before the Cini hijacking. He had to be familiar with air travel around SeaTac, and might have been a frequent flyer into the area. I also think he might have been a regular Northwest passenger. He would have flown an airline he was most comfortable with, as I believe he would have made many decisions based on personal comfort (which is why I believe he was wearing his typical wardrobe for the flight).

But what kind of piloting experience could he have had? When asked about flap settings, he said fifteen degrees. I'm not a pilot, so I had to look it up, flaps start creating more drag than lift at 10 degrees. Did Cooper guess at "15 degrees" because he knew this fact? Could he have learned the flap settings on a 727 without working at Boeing? Did he revert to knowledge from his own piloting lessons? Are there common contemporary private aircraft with similar flap settings? Same deal with having the landing gear down, he would have to have some knowledge of aeronautics before the Cini hijacking. What is the minimum amount of experience Cooper could have had based on these facts?

Cooper would need information specific to the 727 and the fact that the rear stairs could be lowered in flight was not widely known.  The CIA used 727s in Southeast Asia and was probably the reason that the stairs were capable of being lowered in flight.  There is no reason to believe that Cooper was a pilot although he appears to have had some experience as a crew member, but he did have specific information about the 727 capabilities including lowering the stairs in flight.  Consequently, it has been thought by a number of people (including myself) that Cooper spent some time in Southeast Asia and was involved in 727 operations there.   
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 11, 2014, 01:53:52 AM
Not be rude, Andrade, but the bigger question is why are you asking the question on flaps?  The circumstances of the flap setting have been widely discussed, and the implications from asking for Flaps 15 are very important.

The 727 is the only Boeing product with a pre-determined flap setting of 15 degrees. Rataczak told me he was very impressed with Cooper when he heard the flap setting request. Coupled with all the other demands, R. told me that he knew they were dealing with a very smart guy.

Further, Rataczak acknowledged that Cooper knew more about the 727 than the crew.

Also, why do you accept that Cooper was inspired by Paul Cini? Why do you think Paul chose a DC-8 and not a 727? Why do you think Paul was so indecisive during the skyjacking?

There is a wealth of information on these subject at the Mountain News.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on December 11, 2014, 02:03:51 AM
I thought I read somewhere that the CIA link was a dead end. And also, that the Boeing link was investigated and ended up being a dead end. Ckret on DZ maybe?

Isn't it possible he got lucky with the stairs? It might not even be dumb luck, why would you design a lock for those stairs when only an idiot would try to use them during a flight?

Bruce: I accept that Cooper probably had some source of knowledge on the 727. As mentioned earlier, planning something like this in eleven days would require a lot of foreknowledge since it would take a long time for a layman to get all this information, or engineer it. I'm playing around. Devil's advocate; whatever. What I was really interested in was finding out if other aircraft had a 15 degree flap setting. As Cooper guys, we all ask the same questions, analyze the same fifteen data points, and circle around Tina's bar like it's Prometheus offering fire. [This is the reason I like having a conjecture/dumb question thread, it offers a rational place to throw stuff like this out there.]
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 11, 2014, 02:08:09 AM
Ok, Andrade. I see your point.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on December 11, 2014, 01:11:53 PM
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Isn't it possible he got lucky with the stairs? It might not even be dumb luck, why would you design a lock for those stairs when only an idiot would try to use them during a flight?

Nevertheless, people have opened airliner doors in flight and committed suicide by jumping from the aircraft.  And remember that the 727 was the only airliner flying in 1971 where the aft stairs could be lowered to some extent in flight.  All the other designs with aft stairs had locks on them.

There is nothing magic about a 15 degree flap setting in general and I'll bet more than one Boeing design has used that setting.  With the advent of relatively complicated leading edge devices, such as Krueger flaps and moveable slats, the designers needed to coordinate those movements with the trailing edge flaps.  Thus the use of "Ident positions" for the flap lever rather than a setting based solely on the deflection of the trailing edge flaps.  A given "Ident position" determines the settings for both the leading and trailing edge devices.   
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on December 11, 2014, 03:36:01 PM
So, general conclusion: There's too much dumb luck involved if he doesn't have that information.

It looks like the makings of another Cooper paradox: Cooper had knowledge he could only get from a few places, yet investigation of those leads turned up nothing.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on December 11, 2014, 03:38:17 PM
Are there any good books or documentaries about the clandestine 727 airdrops? Or the supersonic air transport program that was cancelled just before Cooper's hijacking?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on December 11, 2014, 03:57:26 PM
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So, general conclusion: There's too much dumb luck involved if he doesn't have that information.

It looks like the makings of another Cooper paradox: Cooper had knowledge he could only get from a few places, yet investigation of those leads turned up nothing.

By the same logic everyone who did "Graphic Arts" in caves must have had (had to have had) training from the Chicago Art Institute! ?  Things like that can't happen by accident. CAI is the only place you could get such training at the time.

I read it in The Dictionary of Occupational Titles.

And not to get too fussy about this, what was the last flap setting he actually asked for just prior to bailing. It wasn't 15 degrees!  In fact sir, give us "all" of the flap settings he ordered up .. in the actual order he ordered them up! Tell is the status of things at each flap setting he ordered up. I mean let's consider all of the settings he actually ordered up and the circumstances?  Don't let a few facts stand in your way! ;D

 ;)
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: EVickiW on December 11, 2014, 03:59:20 PM
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Are there any good books or documentaries about the clandestine 727 airdrops? Or the supersonic air transport program that was cancelled just before Cooper's hijacking?

Here is a video from one of the past DZ posters. It is on the Youtube channel DBCooperXFiles. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrqdmXxBZjI
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on December 11, 2014, 04:27:29 PM
I'd be more than happy to believe Cooper back-engineered the jump without a priori knowledge of the 727, (in fact, I would find that preferable) but I'd need evidence. Where could a laymen get information about the 727 stairs not having locking mechanisms when stairs on other aircraft had them? Where could a laymen get knowledge about the flight configuration (gears down, flaps at 15, unpressurized cabin)? Where could a laymen without jump experience learn the basics of parachuting (checking packing cards, easily strapping into a harness) without going to a skydiving school and asking a bunch of suspicious questions? [I would think any Cooper suspect who walked into a skydiving school, asked a bunch of questions, then disappeared, would have been reported to the FBI after the jump].
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 11, 2014, 04:31:01 PM
Possibly the guy who removed the stairs for the military during those jumps? they were removed and sheet metal was put over the permanent steps.

Here is some more info

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/the-cia-proved-that-a-boeing-727-can-perform-air-drops-1566155708
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: nmiwrecks on December 11, 2014, 04:40:24 PM
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I'd be more than happy to believe Cooper back-engineered the jump without a priori knowledge of the 727, (in fact, I would find that preferable) but I'd need evidence. Where could a laymen get information about the 727 stairs not having locking mechanisms when stairs on other aircraft had them? Where could a laymen get knowledge about the flight configuration (gears down, flaps at 15, unpressurized cabin)? Where could a laymen without jump experience learn the basics of parachuting (checking packing cards, easily strapping into a harness) without going to a skydiving school and asking a bunch of suspicious questions? [I would think any Cooper suspect who walked into a skydiving school, asked a bunch of questions, then disappeared, would have been reported to the FBI after the jump].

Cooper seems to have extensive knowledge about flaps, airspeed, etc., but doesn't know how what he asks for affects fuel consumption and the range of the aircraft?  He seems informed in some areas and ignorant in others.  Just like his knowledge of the airstairs. He seems to know they can be deployed during flight, yet doesn't seem to know how to open them.  Could it be that much of his knowledge came from study, not experience?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on December 11, 2014, 04:44:00 PM
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I'd be more than happy to believe Cooper back-engineered the jump without a priori knowledge of the 727, (in fact, I would find that preferable) but I'd need evidence. Where could a laymen get information about the 727 stairs not having locking mechanisms when stairs on other aircraft had them? Where could a laymen get knowledge about the flight configuration (gears down, flaps at 15, unpressurized cabin)? Where could a laymen without jump experience learn the basics of parachuting (checking packing cards, easily strapping into a harness) without going to a skydiving school and asking a bunch of suspicious questions? [I would think any Cooper suspect who walked into a skydiving school, asked a bunch of questions, then disappeared, would have been reported to the FBI after the jump].

A bit of experience flying as a loadmaster, flight engineer, etc., would provide most of the information.  Inspecting and putting on a parachute and jumping with one during an emergency doesn't require more than about 5 to 10 minutes of instruction at most.  The information specific to the 727 could have been obtained by acting as a crew member on one operating in Southeast Asia or even by talking to someone who was familiar with the 727 operations there.  But Cooper knew the aft stairs on the 727 could be lowered in flight and he double checked with the ticket agent in Portland that the aircraft for his flight was a 727.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 11, 2014, 04:47:47 PM
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I'd be more than happy to believe Cooper back-engineered the jump without a priori knowledge of the 727, (in fact, I would find that preferable) but I'd need evidence. Where could a laymen get information about the 727 stairs not having locking mechanisms when stairs on other aircraft had them? Where could a laymen get knowledge about the flight configuration (gears down, flaps at 15, unpressurized cabin)? Where could a laymen without jump experience learn the basics of parachuting (checking packing cards, easily strapping into a harness) without going to a skydiving school and asking a bunch of suspicious questions? [I would think any Cooper suspect who walked into a skydiving school, asked a bunch of questions, then disappeared, would have been reported to the FBI after the jump].

Cooper seems to have extensive knowledge about flaps, airspeed, etc., but doesn't know how what he asks for affects fuel consumption and the range of the aircraft?  He seems informed in some areas and ignorant in others.  Just like his knowledge of the airstairs. He seems to know they can be deployed during flight, yet doesn't seem to know how to open them.  Could it be that much of his knowledge came from study, not experience?



Quote
Could it be that much of his knowledge came from study, not experience?


That's how I have looked at it. also, he never bothered, or cared how the plane got to Mexico, no flight updates, altitudes, direction, nothing. this could point to wanting out of the plane quickly, or not enough knowledge such as McCoy had who was extremely accurate with his landing. his background was known, and extensive. we can only speculate on Cooper....
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on December 11, 2014, 04:51:50 PM
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I'd be more than happy to believe Cooper back-engineered the jump without a priori knowledge of the 727, (in fact, I would find that preferable) but I'd need evidence. Where could a laymen get information about the 727 stairs not having locking mechanisms when stairs on other aircraft had them? Where could a laymen get knowledge about the flight configuration (gears down, flaps at 15, unpressurized cabin)? Where could a laymen without jump experience learn the basics of parachuting (checking packing cards, easily strapping into a harness) without going to a skydiving school and asking a bunch of suspicious questions? [I would think any Cooper suspect who walked into a skydiving school, asked a bunch of questions, then disappeared, would have been reported to the FBI after the jump].

Cooper seems to have extensive knowledge about flaps, airspeed, etc., but doesn't know how what he asks for affects fuel consumption and the range of the aircraft?  He seems informed in some areas and ignorant in others.  Just like his knowledge of the airstairs. He seems to know they can be deployed during flight, yet doesn't seem to know how to open them.  Could it be that much of his knowledge came from study, not experience?

Not likely to be from study since the program to demonstrate jumping and dropping things from the aft stairs of the 727 was done for a CIA front organization.  And CIA organizations do not generally like to have their activities publicized.  On the evening of the hijacking, it took NWA some time to locate any people at Boeing who had knowledge of lowering the stairs in flight.  That program was simply not common knowledge either at Boeing or any commercial airline.

On Cooper having difficulty lowering the stairs, even after Tina had told him how to do it, the controls for the stairs may have been different than any he had seen before, even assuming he had seen some such controls previously.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on December 11, 2014, 04:57:16 PM
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I'd be more than happy to believe Cooper back-engineered the jump without a priori knowledge of the 727, (in fact, I would find that preferable) but I'd need evidence. Where could a laymen get information about the 727 stairs not having locking mechanisms when stairs on other aircraft had them? Where could a laymen get knowledge about the flight configuration (gears down, flaps at 15, unpressurized cabin)? Where could a laymen without jump experience learn the basics of parachuting (checking packing cards, easily strapping into a harness) without going to a skydiving school and asking a bunch of suspicious questions? [I would think any Cooper suspect who walked into a skydiving school, asked a bunch of questions, then disappeared, would have been reported to the FBI after the jump].

Cooper seems to have extensive knowledge about flaps, airspeed, etc., but doesn't know how what he asks for affects fuel consumption and the range of the aircraft?  He seems informed in some areas and ignorant in others.  Just like his knowledge of the airstairs. He seems to know they can be deployed during flight, yet doesn't seem to know how to open them.  Could it be that much of his knowledge came from study, not experience?



Quote
Could it be that much of his knowledge came from study, not experience?


That's how I have looked at it. also, he never bothered, or cared how the plane got to Mexico, no flight updates, altitudes, direction, nothing. this could point to wanting out of the plane quickly, or not enough knowledge such as McCoy had who was extremely accurate with his landing. his background was known, and extensive. we can only speculate on Cooper....

Shutter is correct that Cooper apparently wanted to jump soon after take off.  After jumping, the airliner was not something that he cared about.  Whatever happened to the airliner was their tough luck.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on December 13, 2014, 12:15:09 AM
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I'd be more than happy to believe Cooper back-engineered the jump without a priori knowledge of the 727, (in fact, I would find that preferable) but I'd need evidence. Where could a laymen get information about the 727 stairs not having locking mechanisms when stairs on other aircraft had them? Where could a laymen get knowledge about the flight configuration (gears down, flaps at 15, unpressurized cabin)? Where could a laymen without jump experience learn the basics of parachuting (checking packing cards, easily strapping into a harness) without going to a skydiving school and asking a bunch of suspicious questions? [I would think any Cooper suspect who walked into a skydiving school, asked a bunch of questions, then disappeared, would have been reported to the FBI after the jump].

Cooper seems to have extensive knowledge about flaps, airspeed, etc., but doesn't know how what he asks for affects fuel consumption and the range of the aircraft?  He seems informed in some areas and ignorant in others.  Just like his knowledge of the airstairs. He seems to know they can be deployed during flight, yet doesn't seem to know how to open them.  Could it be that much of his knowledge came from study, not experience?



Quote
Could it be that much of his knowledge came from study, not experience?


That's how I have looked at it. also, he never bothered, or cared how the plane got to Mexico, no flight updates, altitudes, direction, nothing. this could point to wanting out of the plane quickly, or not enough knowledge such as McCoy had who was extremely accurate with his landing. his background was known, and extensive. we can only speculate on Cooper....

Shutter is correct that Cooper apparently wanted to jump soon after take off.  After jumping, the airliner was not something that he cared about.  Whatever happened to the airliner was their tough luck.

I appreciate people don't wish to cover old ground, but what do you base your feelings on?

wanted to jump soon after take off      ..... and .... whatever happened to the airliner was their tough luck.

Do you believe Cooper knew what route they would be taking and if so how? According to Larry, Cooper had no idea what route they were taking except for heading south to Reno (on just enough fuel to make it) ?


Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Moriarty on December 13, 2014, 03:24:50 AM
Do you believe Cooper knew what route they would be taking and if so how? According to Larry, Cooper had no idea what route they were taking except for heading south to Reno (on just enough fuel to make it) ?
[/quote]

Cooper chose Mexico City and not say New York. He agreed upon Reno because it wasn't an issue. I don't think even the flight plan was an issue but what was, is that it was in the "direction" from Seattle to Mexico. Cooper's demands for the stairs, etc would suggest he wanted to bail early or quickly if need be (maybe rushed.) It would be to his benefit that the plane stay in the sky for the longest amount of time making it hard to locate him, allowing more time to get out of the area and for evidence from the crew/aircraft itself to be gathered. NWO knew that too as they wanted the plane to land as soon as the crew became aware he bailed.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on December 13, 2014, 04:03:36 AM
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Do you believe Cooper knew what route they would be taking and if so how? According to Larry, Cooper had no idea what route they were taking except for heading south to Reno (on just enough fuel to make it) ?

Cooper chose Mexico City and not say New York. He agreed upon Reno because it wasn't an issue. I don't think even the flight plan was an issue but what was, is that it was in the "direction" from Seattle to Mexico. Cooper's demands for the stairs, etc would suggest he wanted to bail early or quickly if need be (maybe rushed.) It would be to his benefit that the plane stay in the sky for the longest amount of time making it hard to locate him, allowing more time to get out of the area and for evidence from the crew/aircraft itself to be gathered. NWO knew that too as they wanted the plane to land as soon as the crew became aware he bailed.
[/quote]

Good points above. Time ^ distance equals confusion.

They claim they did not know if he was gone until Reno. They were even late reporting the pressure spike (discussed it for some time before reporting it, then Rataczak called it in according to Anderson).

Rataczak is on record as wanting to fly out into the ocean and let Cooper jump there. They took V23 instead. I guess we have no flight comms that speak to that decision. Did Cooper know where he was and if so how - the question has been asked before without any final answer because for one we don't have Cooper to ask, and no document addresses the issue so far as I know ...
 
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 13, 2014, 08:01:58 AM
According to the transcripts the jump time was recorded, or at least they thought so. they should have looked in the back like most of the other hijackings. If they thought he jumped in the 8:12 position, why didn't they land at PDX as instructed? where is it quoted they were instructed to land if he bailed?

A lot of time passed when they mentioned not knowing if he was still on the plane, but mentioned the most probable area he bailed? In fact they asked 305 over an hour later to climb to 11,000 to try and slow his actions down if he was still on board. the climb was also need to avoid terrain. they could only go so high as to not deploying

Cooper never gave instruction on how to go to Mexico. he also noted a flight plan could be made in flight.

As usual we have two possibilities. since he had trouble with the stairs it could of caused the delay in his plan. since he had no real idea where he was due to cloud coverage I doubt he intended to jump where they believe he did on purpose. it's all speculation whether he could of seen the lights at the dam, or anywhere else guiding his path.

McCoy was very precise in asking the crew questions about altitude, speed, direction, and weather. Cooper did nothing of the sort. I'm not convinced he was aware where exactly where he was when he bailed.

Hope this makes sense, I'm a little behind getting out the door this morning..... ;D
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Moriarty on December 13, 2014, 12:03:29 PM
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According to the transcripts the jump time was recorded, or at least they thought so. they should have looked in the back like most of the other hijackings. If they thought he jumped in the 8:12 position, why didn't they land at PDX as instructed? where is it quoted they were instructed to land if he bailed?


At 7:45pm MSP Flight Ops transmitted that somone will have to take a look back and see if he's still there.
At 7:54pm MSP transmits "As soon as reasonably sure th e man has left the quicker u can land"

They're also consistantly giving 305 airport options at this stage. Cooper knows he's going. The crew know he's going too. They've seen him with the cord around his waist. They know the time is soon. NWO is genuine about the saftey of the crew and craft and they could be influenced by the psych who predicted he was going to jump then blowup the aircraft. For all they knew, Cooper could very well have left the bomb.

also a bit of afterthought but I believe MSP thinks that the aircraft can't make RENo in that config, however no Cooper, gear up, flaps in, and seeing it is the valid destination FBI etc has probably been set up there. It makes sense to continue there.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on December 13, 2014, 01:49:41 PM
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According to the transcripts the jump time was recorded, or at least they thought so. they should have looked in the back like most of the other hijackings. If they thought he jumped in the 8:12 position, why didn't they land at PDX as instructed? where is it quoted they were instructed to land if he bailed?


At 7:45pm MSP Flight Ops transmitted that somone will have to take a look back and see if he's still there.
At 7:54pm MSP transmits "As soon as reasonably sure th e man has left the quicker u can land"

They're also consistantly giving 305 airport options at this stage. Cooper knows he's going. The crew know he's going too. They've seen him with the cord around his waist. They know the time is soon. NWO is genuine about the saftey of the crew and craft and they could be influenced by the psych who predicted he was going to jump then blowup the aircraft. For all they knew, Cooper could very well have left the bomb.

also a bit of afterthought but I believe MSP thinks that the aircraft can't make RENo in that config, however no Cooper, gear up, flaps in, and seeing it is the valid destination FBI etc has probably been set up there. It makes sense to continue there.

NWA didn't have any aircraft performance information for 727s flying in the configuration that Cooper demanded.  That is why the NWA aircraft performance engineers were continually asking for updates on the aircraft's indicated airspeed, altitude, outside air temperature, and the engine fuel flow rates.

And no one was certain that the airliner could even make it to Reno until it was in the Portland area and the NWA performance engineers had enough information to predict that it could get there.  In the meantime, the Air Traffic Control people were giving the airliner alternate airports that could handle it if it could not get to Reno.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: nmiwrecks on December 13, 2014, 02:01:41 PM
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As usual we have two possibilities. since he had trouble with the stairs it could of caused the delay in his plan. since he had no real idea where he was due to cloud coverage I doubt he intended to jump where they believe he did on purpose. it's all speculation whether he could of seen the lights at the dam, or anywhere else guiding his path.

McCoy was very precise in asking the crew questions about altitude, speed, direction, and weather. Cooper did nothing of the sort. I'm not convinced he was aware where exactly where he was when he bailed.


Is it just a coincidence that if the Cooper suspect landed in the Columbia, that location would be roughly 4 to 8 miles from PDX, the place where he boarded the jet?  That's pretty close.  Maybe 2 minutes away by jet.   Maybe he had a reason to get back to the PDX area?

The Cooper suspect didn't seem to have a plan once he got in the air.  Was he suicidal?  I think I saw a video once where Jerry Thomas said he thought Cooper was actually surprised to get as far as he did and jumped just to get out of the plane, or something to that effect.  Maybe he was trying to get close to PDX because he had ride waiting or something? 

 
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Moriarty on December 13, 2014, 02:28:19 PM
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According to the transcripts the jump time was recorded, or at least they thought so. they should have looked in the back like most of the other hijackings. If they thought he jumped in the 8:12 position, why didn't they land at PDX as instructed? where is it quoted they were instructed to land if he bailed?


At 7:45pm MSP Flight Ops transmitted that somone will have to take a look back and see if he's still there.
At 7:54pm MSP transmits "As soon as reasonably sure th e man has left the quicker u can land"

They're also consistantly giving 305 airport options at this stage. Cooper knows he's going. The crew know he's going too. They've seen him with the cord around his waist. They know the time is soon. NWO is genuine about the saftey of the crew and craft and they could be influenced by the psych who predicted he was going to jump then blowup the aircraft. For all they knew, Cooper could very well have left the bomb.

also a bit of afterthought but I believe MSP thinks that the aircraft can't make RENo in that config, however no Cooper, gear up, flaps in, and seeing it is the valid destination FBI etc has probably been set up there. It makes sense to continue there.

NWA didn't have any aircraft performance information for 727s flying in the configuration that Cooper demanded.  That is why the NWA aircraft performance engineers were continually asking for updates on the aircraft's indicated airspeed, altitude, outside air temperature, and the engine fuel flow rates.

And no one was certain that the airliner could even make it to Reno until it was in the Portland area and the NWA performance engineers had enough information to predict that it could get there.  In the meantime, the Air Traffic Control people were giving the airliner alternate airports that could handle it if it could not get to Reno.

In the short period of time I've dived into the Cooper case, I quickly realize that if you don't respect the person, you should question their opinions related to their "facts." It's both a simple and efficient filtering procedure. I've read your posts about the flight path of the aircraft. It's technically proficient. If anything, you should be the go to guy for anything related to it.
so that said wouldn't it be easy for the flight engineers to look at the drag, fuel, with the normal op performance of the 727 and do some simple math. The birds on the ground, they've yet to get a destination/demand. Once they get the destination, it would seem in everyone's best to scramble with the demands (esp aft stair down) on the most simplest, will it get there? MSP knows that flaps 15, gear down, aft stairs UP that they can't make Mexico. They're guessing (max) SFO, maybe PHX. On the ground, prior to take off theyre working on range, correct?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on December 13, 2014, 03:42:47 PM
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According to the transcripts the jump time was recorded, or at least they thought so. they should have looked in the back like most of the other hijackings. If they thought he jumped in the 8:12 position, why didn't they land at PDX as instructed? where is it quoted they were instructed to land if he bailed?


At 7:45pm MSP Flight Ops transmitted that somone will have to take a look back and see if he's still there.
At 7:54pm MSP transmits "As soon as reasonably sure th e man has left the quicker u can land"

They're also consistantly giving 305 airport options at this stage. Cooper knows he's going. The crew know he's going too. They've seen him with the cord around his waist. They know the time is soon. NWO is genuine about the saftey of the crew and craft and they could be influenced by the psych who predicted he was going to jump then blowup the aircraft. For all they knew, Cooper could very well have left the bomb.

also a bit of afterthought but I believe MSP thinks that the aircraft can't make RENo in that config, however no Cooper, gear up, flaps in, and seeing it is the valid destination FBI etc has probably been set up there. It makes sense to continue there.

NWA didn't have any aircraft performance information for 727s flying in the configuration that Cooper demanded.  That is why the NWA aircraft performance engineers were continually asking for updates on the aircraft's indicated airspeed, altitude, outside air temperature, and the engine fuel flow rates.

And no one was certain that the airliner could even make it to Reno until it was in the Portland area and the NWA performance engineers had enough information to predict that it could get there.  In the meantime, the Air Traffic Control people were giving the airliner alternate airports that could handle it if it could not get to Reno.

In the short period of time I've dived into the Cooper case, I quickly realize that if you don't respect the person, you should question their opinions related to their "facts." It's both a simple and efficient filtering procedure. I've read your posts about the flight path of the aircraft. It's technically proficient. If anything, you should be the go to guy for anything related to it.
so that said wouldn't it be easy for the flight engineers to look at the drag, fuel, with the normal op performance of the 727 and do some simple math. The birds on the ground, they've yet to get a destination/demand. Once they get the destination, it would seem in everyone's best to scramble with the demands (esp aft stair down) on the most simplest, will it get there? MSP knows that flaps 15, gear down, aft stairs UP that they can't make Mexico. They're guessing (max) SFO, maybe PHX. On the ground, prior to take off theyre working on range, correct?

N467US, the NWA aircraft that was hijacked, was a Boeing 727-051 and it was delivered new to NWA in April 1965.  As such, it was a very early 727 and had a relatively short range, which I think was less than 2000 nautical miles under optimal conditions.  And the 10000 feet altitude, low airspeed, landing gear down, and flap considerations (I don't know if the wing leading edge Krueger flaps and moveable slats were deployed at the 15 degree setting), were something that was not optimal and NWA may not have had pertinent information on.

But I am sure that the NWA performance engineers were working on the range problem with the crew and everyone else once Cooper specified the aircraft configuration.  But basically, in the 45 minutes or so it took the airliner to fly from Seattle through the Portland area, the engineers were able to get the information from the crew about the fuel use under the actual flight conditions and they estimated the aircraft could make it to Reno and it did.

Here is a story along the same line.  In the mid-1960s, Boeing got a contract with NASA-Langley to do some flight tests on blown flaps.  The original 707 prototype (N70700) was the aircraft to be used and it was modified at Boeing Seattle for the program.  The modifications included running some ducts, for the air to blow the flaps, through the landing gear retraction areas.  Consequently, the landing gear could not be retracted.  The aircraft was flown from Seattle to the NASA facility at Langley AFB, VA (and eventually back to Seattle) with the landing gear locked down.  I understand it took two days for the trip across the country and I don't know how many stops for refueling.  I saw the aircraft flying a number of times in the Langley area and it was always with all four engines screaming bloody murder and the aircraft doing about 150 Knots.   
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on December 13, 2014, 03:51:19 PM
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According to the transcripts the jump time was recorded, or at least they thought so. they should have looked in the back like most of the other hijackings. If they thought he jumped in the 8:12 position, why didn't they land at PDX as instructed? where is it quoted they were instructed to land if he bailed?

A lot of time passed when they mentioned not knowing if he was still on the plane, but mentioned the most probable area he bailed? In fact they asked 305 over an hour later to climb to 11,000 to try and slow his actions down if he was still on board. the climb was also need to avoid terrain. they could only go so high as to not deploying

Cooper never gave instruction on how to go to Mexico. he also noted a flight plan could be made in flight.

As usual we have two possibilities. since he had trouble with the stairs it could of caused the delay in his plan. since he had no real idea where he was due to cloud coverage I doubt he intended to jump where they believe he did on purpose. it's all speculation whether he could of seen the lights at the dam, or anywhere else guiding his path.

McCoy was very precise in asking the crew questions about altitude, speed, direction, and weather. Cooper did nothing of the sort. I'm not convinced he was aware where exactly where he was when he bailed.

Hope this makes sense, I'm a little behind getting out the door this morning..... ;D

As difficult as it is to accept, that this "smart guy" who knew more about the 727 than NWA or the pilots ( a myth?) who wasn't all knowing and in total control, I think you've pretty much nailed the truth of Cooper and this hijacking. He didn't know where he was. He bailed after a reasonable time of checking things out and getting prepped, perhaps when he saw a lot of ground lighting coming up  below him. And that is why we have money at Tina Bar today, as opposed to being outside Reno Nevada, or in Oregon somewhere, … just as we have the placard near Toutle.

This all goes back to Sluggo and sorting out myths vs. facts. The reason for that exercise is in order to have the proper mindset when thinking about this case. Being fact-directed vs. myth-diverted. It's very important to have a mindset based on facts vs. myths vs. ‘what we would like Cooper to have been or done’.

They really didn't know if he was gone or not. That was the reason they did not land earlier than Reno. Once landed Scott did go back and looked against orders, prior to the plane being boarded, and he reports: "Our friend departed ....is not with us", or something to that effect.

Sluggo was 100% correct. Mindset is vital. And mindset is only possible with facts vs. myths.

That is a light year away from peddling KC and Weber, and writing 500 articles about "Is there a heaven for dogs".

 
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on December 13, 2014, 04:18:47 PM
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According to the transcripts the jump time was recorded, or at least they thought so. they should have looked in the back like most of the other hijackings. If they thought he jumped in the 8:12 position, why didn't they land at PDX as instructed? where is it quoted they were instructed to land if he bailed?


At 7:45pm MSP Flight Ops transmitted that somone will have to take a look back and see if he's still there.
At 7:54pm MSP transmits "As soon as reasonably sure th e man has left the quicker u can land"

They're also consistantly giving 305 airport options at this stage. Cooper knows he's going. The crew know he's going too. They've seen him with the cord around his waist. They know the time is soon. NWO is genuine about the saftey of the crew and craft and they could be influenced by the psych who predicted he was going to jump then blowup the aircraft. For all they knew, Cooper could very well have left the bomb.

also a bit of afterthought but I believe MSP thinks that the aircraft can't make RENo in that config, however no Cooper, gear up, flaps in, and seeing it is the valid destination FBI etc has probably been set up there. It makes sense to continue there.

NWA didn't have any aircraft performance information for 727s flying in the configuration that Cooper demanded.  That is why the NWA aircraft performance engineers were continually asking for updates on the aircraft's indicated airspeed, altitude, outside air temperature, and the engine fuel flow rates.

And no one was certain that the airliner could even make it to Reno until it was in the Portland area and the NWA performance engineers had enough information to predict that it could get there.  In the meantime, the Air Traffic Control people were giving the airliner alternate airports that could handle it if it could not get to Reno.

In the short period of time I've dived into the Cooper case, I quickly realize that if you don't respect the person, you should question their opinions related to their "facts." It's both a simple and efficient filtering procedure. I've read your posts about the flight path of the aircraft. It's technically proficient. If anything, you should be the go to guy for anything related to it.
so that said wouldn't it be easy for the flight engineers to look at the drag, fuel, with the normal op performance of the 727 and do some simple math. The birds on the ground, they've yet to get a destination/demand. Once they get the destination, it would seem in everyone's best to scramble with the demands (esp aft stair down) on the most simplest, will it get there? MSP knows that flaps 15, gear down, aft stairs UP that they can't make Mexico. They're guessing (max) SFO, maybe PHX. On the ground, prior to take off theyre working on range, correct?

N467US, the NWA aircraft that was hijacked, was a Boeing 727-051 and it was delivered new to NWA in April 1965.  As such, it was a very early 727 and had a relatively short range, which I think was less than 2000 nautical miles under optimal conditions.  And the 10000 feet altitude, low airspeed, landing gear down, and flap considerations (I don't know if the wing leading edge Krueger flaps and moveable slats were deployed at the 15 degree setting), were something that was not optimal and NWA may not have had pertinent information on.

But I am sure that the NWA performance engineers were working on the range problem with the crew and everyone else once Cooper specified the aircraft configuration.  But basically, in the 45 minutes or so it took the airliner to fly from Seattle through the Portland area, the engineers were able to get the information from the crew about the fuel use under the actual flight conditions and they estimated the aircraft could make it to Reno and it did.

Here is a story along the same line.  In the mid-1960s, Boeing got a contract with NASA-Langley to do some flight tests on blown flaps.  The original 707 prototype (N70700) was the aircraft to be used and it was modified at Boeing Seattle for the program.  The modifications included running some ducts, for the air to blow the flaps, through the landing gear retraction areas.  Consequently, the landing gear could not be retracted.  The aircraft was flown from Seattle to the NASA facility at Langley AFB, VA (and eventually back to Seattle) with the landing gear locked down.  I understand it took two days for the trip across the country and I don't know how many stops for refueling.  I saw the aircraft flying a number of times in the Langley area and it was always with all four engines screaming bloody murder and the aircraft doing about 150 Knots.

This is excellent, R99. It helps to have a proper perspective based on Facts vs. myth, for a change.



   
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 13, 2014, 04:49:25 PM
One of the reasons they were worried about fuel was Rataczak went to 30 degrees on the flaps. this put an more drag on the plane. they would of never made it in that configuration. the plane levels off at 7,000 and slowing down to about 160 KIAS. soon after he switches to 30 degrees. the transcripts, or log shows the plane 14 miles DME at 7:40. this can not be met at the speed the plane was going. Rataczak said somewhere I recall about the stairs causing vibrations, and this was the reason he switched to 30 degrees, but that doesn't jive with the records. anyone have an answer on that one?

Cooper has the steps down somewhere close, or around McChord AFB.

9;30 rolls around, and they are not sure if Cooper is on the plane, so they ask to lower the cabin pressure to slow his reflexes down along with climbing to 11,000. who fell asleep after the oscillation, and the pressure bump earlier?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on December 13, 2014, 05:38:34 PM
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One of the reasons they were worried about fuel was Rataczak went to 30 degrees on the flaps. this put an more drag on the plane. they would of never made it in that configuration. the plane levels off at 7,000 and slowing down to about 160 KIAS. soon after he switches to 30 degrees. the transcripts, or log shows the plane 14 miles DME at 7:40. this can not be met at the speed the plane was going. Rataczak said somewhere I recall about the stairs causing vibrations, and this was the reason he switched to 30 degrees, but that doesn't jive with the records. anyone have an answer on that one?

Cooper has the steps down somewhere close, or around McChord AFB.

9;30 rolls around, and they are not sure if Cooper is on the plane, so they ask to lower the cabin pressure to slow his reflexes down along with climbing to 11,000. who fell asleep after the oscillation, and the pressure bump earlier?

who fell asleep after the oscillation, and the pressure bump earlier?

who?   ????????????????
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on December 13, 2014, 05:49:25 PM
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One of the reasons they were worried about fuel was Rataczak went to 30 degrees on the flaps. this put an more drag on the plane. they would of never made it in that configuration. the plane levels off at 7,000 and slowing down to about 160 KIAS. soon after he switches to 30 degrees. the transcripts, or log shows the plane 14 miles DME at 7:40. this can not be met at the speed the plane was going. Rataczak said somewhere I recall about the stairs causing vibrations, and this was the reason he switched to 30 degrees, but that doesn't jive with the records. anyone have an answer on that one?

Cooper has the steps down somewhere close, or around McChord AFB.

9;30 rolls around, and they are not sure if Cooper is on the plane, so they ask to lower the cabin pressure to slow his reflexes down along with climbing to 11,000. who fell asleep after the oscillation, and the pressure bump earlier?

who fell asleep after the oscillation, and the pressure bump earlier?

who?   ????????????????

The three members of the flight crew probably were using their oxygen system, which is separate from the cabin system.  Presumably, there would be a fourth mask for the jump seat and thus Tina could use it if desired.  So if anyone actually went to sleep, it probably would be Tina since the flight crew was busy flying the airplane.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Moriarty on December 13, 2014, 05:52:48 PM
Okay well, sorry to ruin it for everybody, but bad news for the FBI and all of you who have invested your time into Cooper. I just watched an excellent documentary on space travel called The Reluctant Astronaut and if I can apply what I'm calling the "floating peanut butter snake theory" to this 727 config issue, I will be blown' the doors off of this case.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on December 13, 2014, 06:51:04 PM
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One of the reasons they were worried about fuel was Rataczak went to 30 degrees on the flaps. this put an more drag on the plane. they would of never made it in that configuration. the plane levels off at 7,000 and slowing down to about 160 KIAS. soon after he switches to 30 degrees. the transcripts, or log shows the plane 14 miles DME at 7:40. this can not be met at the speed the plane was going. Rataczak said somewhere I recall about the stairs causing vibrations, and this was the reason he switched to 30 degrees, but that doesn't jive with the records. anyone have an answer on that one?

Cooper has the steps down somewhere close, or around McChord AFB.

9;30 rolls around, and they are not sure if Cooper is on the plane, so they ask to lower the cabin pressure to slow his reflexes down along with climbing to 11,000. who fell asleep after the oscillation, and the pressure bump earlier?

who fell asleep after the oscillation, and the pressure bump earlier?

who?   ????????????????

The three members of the flight crew probably were using their oxygen system, which is separate from the cabin system.  Presumably, there would be a fourth mask for the jump seat and thus Tina could use it if desired.  So if anyone actually went to sleep, it probably would be Tina since the flight crew was busy flying the airplane.

What I was talking about is the fact of them pretty much knowing he bailed over an hour ago, and yet they still try some tricks and fail to take a peak in the back? they were aware the stairs were down for some time. then they realized he probably jumped, but that was only Cooper on the stairs. soon after that a pressure bump is felt, but we don't have anything on the transcripts to verify this account, but Rat confirms it. now, over an hour later they want to slow his reflexes down?

Shouldn't the "really smart guys" know Cooper already bailed somewhere past the 8:12 mark, or when Rataczak told them of the bump? it doesn't sound like they were positive he jumped somewhere around Battleground?

I should of said "who fell a sleep at the wheel" after indications not once, but twice that it probably left the plane. :-\ :-\ :-\
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Moriarty on December 13, 2014, 09:40:49 PM
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According to the transcripts the jump time was recorded, or at least they thought so. they should have looked in the back like most of the other hijackings. If they thought he jumped in the 8:12 position, why didn't they land at PDX as instructed? where is it quoted they were instructed to land if he bailed?

A lot of time passed when they mentioned not knowing if he was still on the plane, but mentioned the most probable area he bailed? In fact they asked 305 over an hour later to climb to 11,000 to try and slow his actions down if he was still on board. the climb was also need to avoid terrain. they could only go so high as to not deploying

Cooper never gave instruction on how to go to Mexico. he also noted a flight plan could be made in flight.

As usual we have two possibilities. since he had trouble with the stairs it could of caused the delay in his plan. since he had no real idea where he was due to cloud coverage I doubt he intended to jump where they believe he did on purpose. it's all speculation whether he could of seen the lights at the dam, or anywhere else guiding his path.

McCoy was very precise in asking the crew questions about altitude, speed, direction, and weather. Cooper did nothing of the sort. I'm not convinced he was aware where exactly where he was when he bailed.

Hope this makes sense, I'm a little behind getting out the door this morning..... ;D

While in SEA
- 305 states they need to leave, spooling up. 305, not Cooper, states get us in direction of PDX, 305 will figure flightpath in the air.
- 305 states that they're in a rut with Cooper. He's insisting aft stairs down. 305 states can't take off with aft stairs down. Cooper wants them down when airborne, "fly with it down so he can bail out at any time" (pilots guess.) Cooper ordered chutes pre-landing, Everybody knows he's going to jump.
- 305 gets affirmation V23 while on the taxiway for takeoff. MSP haven't had time to check but feel best option somewhere along the coast. (that's later where that question arises.) GC or MSP (?) States V23 is over the valley. States populated most of the way but gives 305 "no restrictions at all, you fly the best way you can do her"

It is possible that Cooper had the lights off thinking he would see something but sounds like he wouldn't have. If so the only real backup for that is the knowledge of the time from a watch/clock, maybe he had taken a SEA-SOUTHBOUND flight(?) or driven it etc, or I suppose a "I guess I'm a bit out of Seattle-general area-money's secured-see you later suckers" close enough scenario.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Moriarty on December 14, 2014, 07:27:32 PM
what's up with Loren Peterson's recollections of the money. $250k? Black crew bag?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on December 14, 2014, 11:41:04 PM
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what's up with Loren Peterson's recollections of the money. $250k? Black crew bag?

... and a yellow CO2 life raft in each back chute? 
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 15, 2014, 01:08:06 AM
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what's up with Loren Peterson's recollections of the money. $250k? Black crew bag?


And the emphatic statement from Marianne Lincoln of Shady Acres Airport in Spanaway, WA who says that she heard Seattle Control on VHF talk about the $400,000 that the skyjacker wanted.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on December 27, 2014, 04:48:59 PM
Debating whether I want to buy any of the "peripheral" books of the DB Cooper case, Gunther's book, or DB Cooper's Parachute, or even the books on KC/BDayton/McCoy. Any thoughts?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 27, 2014, 06:11:30 PM
Calame and Rhodes on McCoy is a must. It is a unique contribution to the Cooper literature, and is also a gem in the pantheon of true-crime accounts by a cop. It is well-written and touches on subjects that the FBI would not allow their agents to write about these days. A treasure for all time.

Barb Dayton. Yes. Get the second edition copy of Ron and Pat Forman's book. It is more complete, has a ton o' pix, and is better written. Is Barb DB Cooper? I doubt it, but Barb was a fascinating person and her confession is one of the best analyses of how DB Cooper could have done the caper successfully.

KC. Well, if you want to know all the principals in the cat fight over at the DZ, then you gotta read this book. But it's basically trash and filled with inaccuracies and woeful assumptions.

Max's book is a fun read. I read the copy from my library. Besides, the main character Clara says she and DB Cooper lived just down the road from me at Hofstra University, so that was cool.

DB Cooper's Parachute I've never read and it is doubtful I ever will.  If you do, let me know.

Similarly, you can skip Bradley's book about his dad, or read my synopsis at the MN. Forget Grey Cop, etc....
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: nmiwrecks on January 02, 2015, 08:59:21 AM
The Cooper suspect seemed to know certain information about the 727, flaps, speed, aft-stairs. He seemed to think the plane could take off with the stairs deployed.  Could it?  They were damaged when it landed.  Are there any known instances of 727s taking off with the stairs deployed.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: sailshaw on January 02, 2015, 10:36:54 AM
nmwrecks:   You say "The Cooper suspect seemed to know certain information about the 727, flaps, speed, aft-stairs. He seemed to think the plane could take off with the stairs deployed.  Could it?  They were damaged when it landed.  Are there any known instances of 727s taking off with the stairs deployed."

I say:   "It was know around Boeing that the company had made demonstration take-offs and landings with the stairs deployed for our government to interest them into buying and using the 727's to drop personnel and equipment from the air.  These demonstrations were performed at the Boeing test airport in Moses Lake Washington. The same airport where JAL trained their pilots. Sheridan Peterson (my # 1 suspect) worked for a short time at Boeing in the Manuals and Handbooks Group where he could have found out all he needed to know about the 727 and could have called the Mechanical Systems Engineers (the ones that designed the Airstairs) to discuss what he needed to know about the 727 Airstairs. He could have even used his Boeing Badge to visit and use the Airstairs test rig in the B-29 hanger located on the East side of Boeing Field. That same building housed the 727 FCTR (Flight Control Test Rig) that had all the hydraulics layed out in full aircraft positions including the Airstairs. His office was on the other side of Boeing field in the 9-101 building just above the M & P (Manufacturing and Processes Lab on the 1st floor) where he could have got all the titanium (alloyed and pure) and aluminum metals on his tie as he looked into the scrap bins around the outside walls of the lab. He would have passed those bins at least two times a day. I know my tie often swung into the bins as I looked through the neat scrap being discarded. My office was up stairs too in the same building."

This was a very well planned caper and nothing was overlooked except the use of DNA which the FBI has yet to look at under the four envelop flaps and stamps of the letters sent to the news papers shortly after Norjak. Why haven't the FBI looked at the evidence they have and compared the DNA with what they have taken from Sheridan? They are so close as a match (which I am sure they would get) would show Sheridan was in Portland when his phony alibi was he was in Nepal. There is still time as Sheridan is still alive and living in California but getting older. Time is short now but the FBI could make an easy check of the DNA and solve their only unsolved skyjacking.

Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com

Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on January 02, 2015, 02:15:33 PM
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The Cooper suspect seemed to know certain information about the 727, flaps, speed, aft-stairs. He seemed to think the plane could take off with the stairs deployed.  Could it?  They were damaged when it landed.  Are there any known instances of 727s taking off with the stairs deployed.

From a flight dynamics point of view, there is no reason why the 727 could not easily take off with the aft stairs down but unlocked.  If the aft stairs were locked down, as they were during passenger loading and unloading, it would present more of a problem but could quite possibility be done but with some damage to the stairs.  The stairs down and locked would present difficulties in rotating (raising the nose) for take off but at high speed I think the longitudinal control power would be sufficient to overcome the resistance from the stairs, and thereby collapse the stairs.

During the landing in Reno, the stairs were unlocked and only dropped to the pavement after the landing, as the aircraft was turning off the runway.  The damage was very slight and I think there is a picture of it somewhere on this site and definitely on other sites.  The hijacked airliner was flown back to Seattle the following day and back in regular service within another day or so.  This is discussed in the NWA paperwork at the WSHM site.

I think there are pictures somewhere of 727s in Southeast Asia taxiing with the aft stairs partially down.  Cooper's statement that he knew that the 727 could take off with the aft stairs (at least partially) down should be accepted at face value.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on January 02, 2015, 03:50:45 PM
The last flight out of Vietnam (Da Nang) the plane took off with the rear stairs down. the condition of the plane wasn't suppose to fly at all, but it did. they didn't really have a choice to pull the stairs up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzcWZ7j1iTg
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on January 02, 2015, 05:35:04 PM
They didn't seem to know a 707 could barrel roll....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra_khhzuFlE
Title: In Search of Dan Cooper the movie
Post by: FLYJACK on January 06, 2015, 01:42:04 AM
The movie "In Search of Dan Cooper" is available free streaming on CBC, dubbed into english. However, there might be a Canada only restriction. Maybe you can try a VPN, not sure if a proxy would work. I am no expert on these things..

http://www.cbc.ca/player/Shows/Shows/Absolutely+Canadian/Absolutely+Quebec/ID/2504597489/
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on January 06, 2015, 04:25:44 PM
Fly, I moved your comment here. I don't really want to start anymore threads at this time. we have enough topics to post any questions in. no biggie........

Shutter 
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: FLYJACK on January 06, 2015, 11:33:35 PM
I was looking into the tie bar, as we know, it was a very common design that was used in cheap costume jewellery up to low end. I found that Speidel made that design and rebranded for different department stores at the low end. Swank brand also sold it but slighly higher end. There were a few others.

It was usually sold as a kit with the cufflinks, often with a money clip, sometimes with pen kits or even with higher end gems.

What happened to the rest of Coopers kit??

Here is a matching kit with the original store tag on the box YDC $2.00..  YDC was York Discount Corporation, part of McCrorys five and dime empire, YDC was Eastern headquartered in York Pennsylvania. The design was so pervasive that it tells us little, but Coopers is very low end and widely available. Likely, there is a date code on this tag, but retailers had their own system.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on January 06, 2015, 11:40:26 PM
It's hard to say whether he had the rest of the jewelry that came with the tie "clip". I'm not sure if this was sold as one piece during the time period. it's possible he never had the set, or it's still unknown if the tie was his, or purchased somewhere prior to the crime.

I spent a lot of time trying to track down leads on it. I concluded it was manufactured in New Jersey (I think) I made a video, don't know if you ever seen it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5a_qSBqIYM
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: FLYJACK on January 07, 2015, 12:49:14 AM
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It's hard to say whether he had the rest of the jewelry that came with the tie "clip". I'm not sure if this was sold as one piece during the time period. it's possible he never had the set, or it's still unknown if the tie was his, or purchased somewhere prior to the crime.

I spent a lot of time trying to track down leads on it. I concluded it was manufactured in New Jersey (I think) I made a video, don't know if you ever seen it?


Good info, I found much of the same, Speidel made low end under different names for dept stores, Stacy tended to be a little higher end sometimes with a pen/pencil kit.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on January 07, 2015, 07:11:30 AM
I made the video a while back. I've found about a dozen more companies selling the product. it basically came from one manufacture who sold/shipped it all over the country, and they put the product in there boxes. have you found any from
Canada?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: FLYJACK on January 07, 2015, 10:26:09 AM
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I made the video a while back. I've found about a dozen more companies selling the product. it basically came from one manufacture who sold/shipped it all over the country, and they put the product in there boxes. have you found any from
Canada?

No manufacturing, but like the US, Canada had many department store chains that sold house brands. I haven't found the exact Cooper clip though.

Also, some fountain pen nibs were titanium, not sure what form, probably an alloy and those cheap sets usually didn't come with fountain pens.

Something like 85% of watches are bought as gifts, I thought about my tie clips and I never bought any of them, they (5) were all gifts from family or work. So, I wonder generally what the breakdown is for tie clips/sets, was Coopers a gift.

That design was produced for decades, how old do you think it is? It looks well worn,
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on January 07, 2015, 02:59:03 PM
The same clip in the 50s had a different type of clip. Probably not older than the 60s.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: FLYJACK on January 14, 2015, 07:14:07 PM
I have questions about the stairs,,,

How do they work, can they be partially lowered, is there any indicator to distinguish full vs partial.

Note these two images, they were shredded, not the stairs but the fabric side panels. The weight drop test stairs had a different shredding pattern. Could be the variability of the attachment/tightness or Cooper plane flew further. It is interesting that Coopers is ripped even on both sides a little over half way up, the test has one side perfect the other 90% gone..

Could Cooper have partially opened the stairs, say 50% causing the even tearing, then fully lowering them a bit later. That is what I would do, lower them partially to get bearings. Is that even possible..


(http://nymag.com/daily/intel/upload/2011/07/airstairsnew_560x375.jpg)

(http://n467us.com/Photo%20Evidence_files/image046.jpg)
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on January 14, 2015, 07:20:16 PM
They work by gravity. once the stairs are down, you have to lock them from the ground. when the light came on with the stairs they were only partially open until Cooper went down them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjXB1Y9kISg
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on January 14, 2015, 07:23:54 PM
Here they are partially open...


(http://n467us.com/Photo%20Evidence_files/image077.jpg)
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: FLYJACK on January 14, 2015, 07:39:01 PM
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Here they are partially open...


(http://n467us.com/Photo%20Evidence_files/image077.jpg)

here it is,, 20 deg ,, so after Cooper left the stairs returned to 20 deg

"Once in the test area the plane was flown with flaps at 15 degrees, wheels down, approximately 150 KIAS. When the aft airstairs were released, they dropped 20 degrees (Photo here.). There was a slight change in cabin pressure indicated by gauges, but not felt by the flight crew.
Air Force Captain Wilson and M/Sgt Saiz individually walked down the airstairs (wearing parachutes) and stood at the bottom. Each reported that the stairs lowered to almost a level position, they were stable, no drag from the wind and they could stand fully upright.
When at the bottom of the stairs the cabin pressure gauge showed significant changes.
They then performed a test by dropping each of the two sleds and in both tests the sleds dropped directly down (dispelling a theory that Cooper would have been slammed up against the tail when he jumped). The moment the sleds cleared the stairs the flight crew felt a popping in their ears and the cabin pressure gauge reacted violently. It was discovered from chase plane photo's, video and reports from Wilson and Saiz that the pressure change was caused by the stairs being forced upward by the airstream after the weight was removed.
Flight Engineer Harold E. Anderson, who was present for the test and served on the flight crew of Flight 305 the night of the hijacking, stated that the pressure bump felt during the test was identical to what was experienced the night of the hijacking."
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on January 14, 2015, 07:49:18 PM
The problem is they believe they got the jump wrong due to oscillation felt at 8:10/11. this was believed to be when Cooper was at the bottom of the stairs. then a pressure bump was felt (actual jump) according to Rataczak that occurred 5-10 minutes after the last contact with Cooper at 8:05.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on January 14, 2015, 11:56:37 PM
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The problem is they believe they got the jump wrong due to oscillation felt at 8:10/11. this was believed to be when Cooper was at the bottom of the stairs. then a pressure bump was felt (actual jump) according to Rataczak that occurred 5-10 minutes after the last contact with Cooper at 8:05.

oscillations and bump, distinct events (phenomena).

delay in reporting 'bump' according to Anderson of up to five minutes, which explains Rczak's estimate 'that occurred 5-10 minutes after the last contact with Cooper at 8:05.' And, if Anderson is correct 8:05 was not the crew's last contact with Cooper. There was one additional contact of Cooper calling forward after 8:05, to ask the plane be slowed and stabilised' before the 'bump/jump'.

   
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on January 16, 2015, 05:18:34 PM
Robert99, here is what 377 is looking for. it's the Cooper Vane...

Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on January 16, 2015, 08:40:18 PM
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Robert99, here is what 377 is looking for. it's the Cooper Vane...

Shutter, I don't know what it is in the picture, but it looks it is a rigid tab of some kind that cannot fold over as the Cooper vane allegedly does.

Also, the article from Wikipedia that 377 quotes, says the Cooper vane was on a ex-SAS DC-9-21 which means that it operated in Europe.

In the good old USA, I do not remember ever boarding an early model DC-9 through the aft stairs.  I have boarded early model MD-80s, and MAYBE late model DC-9-??s, through the aft stairs and never saw a Cooper vane (but I wasn't really looking for one either).

But for the most part, my DC-9/MD-80 flights involved large airports that had enclosed moveable ramps and didn't use either the front or aft stairs.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on January 16, 2015, 08:54:16 PM
It's right here?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooper_vane

And here...

http://aerotoons.com/blog/2013/10/
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on January 18, 2015, 01:24:24 AM
According to Wikipedia, skydivers today get a main failure about 1 in 750 times. Anyone know what the main failure rate in the 1970's was?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: FLYJACK on January 18, 2015, 01:46:37 PM
what happened to the briefcase?? theories,,,

and what was the parachute pack made of,, not the chute itself..
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on January 18, 2015, 03:10:16 PM
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According to Wikipedia, skydivers today get a main failure about 1 in 750 times. Anyone know what the main failure rate in the 1970's was?

I don't think statistical averages count here.  You had better be ready for a main failure on your first jump.  In the early 1960s, and using modified military surplus equipment, I had a neat failure (complete inversion of the canopy) on my ninth jump.  Amazon states that she came down on her reserve on her 10th jump.  I think 377 had a lot more jumps before having to use his reserve.

Robert99 
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on January 18, 2015, 08:06:43 PM
And you guys want me to try skydiving?

Some friends!
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on January 18, 2015, 10:18:59 PM
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And you guys want me to try skydiving?

Some friends!

Bruce, You can't really appreciate the joys of skydiving, or flying either for that matter, until you have had the daylights scared out of you a few times.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on January 18, 2015, 11:35:57 PM
Uh, so that's a "No, I don't have those numbers."?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on January 18, 2015, 11:52:33 PM
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Uh, so that's a "No, I don't have those numbers."?

The number of jumps per main failure data probably doesn't exist.  I do not know of any such records being kept.  In my case, the only recording done was the entry in my skydiver log book and my autograph in my rigger's log book.  He was also my instructor.  Of course, I did provide him with some refreshments of his choice.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on January 19, 2015, 12:41:10 AM
Thanks, I kinda figured there wouldn't be any, but I wanted to make sure.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Olemisscub on March 05, 2015, 11:56:57 AM
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what happened to the briefcase?? theories,,,

I'm curious about this as well. I guess there are only two options really. Either he tied it to himself or he just threw it out of the plane at some point before jumping. Of course throwing it out could lead to it being found and possibly traced back to you, so maybe you would want to take it with you.

But that leads me to wondering how much he really cared about leaving evidence behind. On the one hand you have him being cognizant of the fact that he needed to get the note back (which is what famously sunk MCoy) but then you have him leaving the tie for whatever reason, possibly as an oversight or maybe he just didn't think that it was worthy of being a clue so he didn't care about leaving it behind. I don't fault him for leaving the cigarette butts because DNA evidence wasn't really a thing yet.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on March 05, 2015, 01:26:20 PM
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what happened to the briefcase?? theories,,,

I'm curious about this as well. I guess there are only two options really. Either he tied it to himself or he just threw it out of the plane at some point before jumping. Of course throwing it out could lead to it being found and possibly traced back to you, so maybe you would want to take it with you.

But that leads me to wondering how much he really cared about leaving evidence behind. On the one hand you have him being cognizant of the fact that he needed to get the note back (which is what famously sunk MCoy) but then you have him leaving the tie for whatever reason, possibly as an oversight or maybe he just didn't think that it was worthy of being a clue so he didn't care about leaving it behind. I don't fault him for leaving the cigarette butts because DNA evidence wasn't really a thing yet.

Well, this is an interesting area and contradictory.

While dna wasn't a fully developed forensic science yet, many aspects of bio forensics and particle forensics (& finger printing) were! Cooper takes his note but leaves other personal evidence. Makes no sense.

If the titanium and other (machined?) particles on the Cooper tie connect Cooper to a technical-industrial environment where education and training are common, and he still leaves 'palpable forensic evidence' ... then there is a contradiction. Add in his presumed technical awareness implied by his notes and technical negotiations with the pilots! Is Cooper technically aware but forensically stupid!? Has he absolutely no familiarity with law enforcement forensics, but knows metallurgy?  Something doesn't add up ... or maybe he didn't care? Maybe he asked for his note back just to demonstrate who was in control vs. anything to do with his finger prints etc?

It is almost as if he is operating with tunnel vision, if he is a technically savvy person. What is the point of taking his note if he leaves his finger prints all over the place, and his tie, and the match book, and his cigarette butts! Today that would be enough evidence to convict Cooper 50 times over and it wasn't much less in 1971 should the FBI chosen to do full and exhaustive forensics in his case in 1971.

No, there wont be any dna analysis in 1971 but there will be blood typing and 20 other bio markers, all from saliva on the butts! Any educated person would know that. Moreover, any deeply educated person would know that the near future was going to include "dna analysis"!
 
[edit] This is one of the most interesting and potentially important aspects of the case, to me. What rational was really driving Cooper based on who is actually was - his Identity? At length, he said he had a grudge. Maybe the money wasn't really that important to him? He leaves real evidence behind that can identify and convict him.

Who is this guy!? What explains his attention to details on the one hand, and total myopia on the other hand? Is this guy from Mars!? He either is not being rational, or he is! And that goes straight to his Identity.




 
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on March 05, 2015, 03:04:28 PM
It was thirty years before the FBI could do any DNA testing, 40 years before someone took a look at the particles on the tie. That's a pretty good head start.

As for any of the other bio-markers, who knows. I think it's asking too much for Cooper to be well-read on forensics, especially in an era of Dragnet (not CSI).
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 05, 2015, 07:35:41 PM
DNA was first used as a forensic tool in the mid-1980s, in the UK, according to a recent Netflix docu that I watched. It took about another 5-10 years for techniques to be perfected and for LE to realize what they had.
Title: moving
Post by: Shutter on March 05, 2015, 09:44:24 PM
As agent Carr stated, he might of had enough experience to be dangerous to himself for thinking he could do it. you have to be in a serious bind to either hijack a plane, or rob a bank. either way it's not normal thinking by any means. they believed he was a criminal in the past. they don't think logically. you should know that one.....I've jumped back and forth on the fence for a while. he made it, no, he died. I just don't know  :-\
Title: Re: moving
Post by: Shutter on March 05, 2015, 09:52:18 PM
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I guess I'm basing this on your average criminal, or someone with limited military service, meaning not having any jump experience, but obtaining knowledge thinking he know's enough. asking for front and back chutes puzzles me. the clothes he wore, and the shoes. some say a smoke jumper did it. would a smoke jumper dress like that?

I suppose he could have had skydiving apparatuses in the bag he carried on the plane, so maybe he changed shoes before he jumped? Maybe he had an old school leather helmet in his bag? Or gloves? Or goggles? Tina last saw him what, 20 minutes before he jumped?


I'll have to look again, but the bag was small. goggles and gloves perhaps....
Title: Re: moving
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 05, 2015, 09:52:29 PM
Move the discussion where we need to go, Shut.

As for spin, this is part of a bigger issue literally and metaphorically - who is saying what about the jump and why. Flip side of that is how much experience is necessary to make the jump successfully?

There is certainly a WIDE range of opinion. But here are some facts to consider:

1. McNally - no experience whatsoever. Had to be shown how to put the parachute on. Made it okay, but not with his money.

2. Cossey, circa 1971, said Coop only needed about six lessons with an instructor to make a successful jump.  By 2009, Coss was adamant that Cooper was a "no pull."  2013, Earl is dead, and in 2014, Geoffrey is scrubbing Coss' reputation clean and all we know for sure about Earl J is that he was the rigger.

3, Larry Carr: Cooper was a tumbling, bumbling fool who only knew enough to get himself into trouble. Larry also felt that the 22 degree temps on the stairs would freeze Coop silly, although we now know that half of Boston goes skinny-dipping in the harbor when the temperature goes above 32 for more than an hour. (At least that's what my sister tells me...)

4. Robb Heady jumped into a 300 mph slipstream without goggles. Pulled at 1K when she saw the ground rushing up at him. Tumbled initially for 15 seconds or so, but with 160 jumps under his belt knew how to arch his way into a stable free-fall.  Robb jumped from 12K wearing only a wind-breaker and a fishing vest. He said the air was "chilly." He also said there was no significant wind on the stairs.
Title: Re: moving
Post by: Shutter on March 05, 2015, 10:02:43 PM
Quote
Move the discussion where we need to go, Shut.

I already mentioned the problem. I'm a little busy at the moment. I'll move the topic when I get a chance. if the earths rotation stops, I'll jump right on it... :o
Title: Re: moving
Post by: andrade1812 on March 05, 2015, 10:07:38 PM
As a Minnesotan, I try not to laugh about the cold arguments. I don't even put gloves on until it's -10f.

As for Cooper's personal history and mental attributes, I think the FBI has always gotten him wrong. Kaye's analysis of the tie shows Cooper was an educated, relatively successful person who held a job in a technical field. Cooper was more than just clever, he was smart. The idea of Cooper being an "old con" on his last gig seem silly now. [Assuming the tie was actually Cooper's.]

Which is not to say someone like Melvin Wilson couldn't be Cooper, it's just very unlikely.



Title: Re: moving
Post by: Shutter on March 05, 2015, 10:10:15 PM
Quote
As a Minnesotan, I try not to laugh about the cold arguments. I don't even put gloves on until it's -10f.

Well, here we have another problem. I was like that while living in Ohio. now, I'm cold at 65 degree's. we southern boys bundle up down here  ;D

A couple weeks ago it got down in the low 40's with a wind chill of mid 30's. I thought they were testing cryogenics down here  :D :D :D :D :D
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on March 05, 2015, 10:32:54 PM
I moved the discussion to here. we were in suspect and confessions. trying to keep the categories flowing correctly......
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on March 05, 2015, 11:53:20 PM
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DNA was first used as a forensic tool in the mid-1980s, in the UK, according to a recent Netflix docu that I watched. It took about another 5-10 years for techniques to be perfected and for LE to realize what they had.

The German investigator B. Mueller conceived the use of alpha-amylase as a forensic tool to validate the presence of saliva on a given surface, in 1928. By 1950, 37 standard forensic tests had been developed using saliva as the target. Hundreds of tests using saliva had been developed within medical science!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saliva_testing

If agents don't order tests, tests are not done. If agents don't know what tests to order then nothing may be done ... Many agents in the early 70s knew very little about forensic testing because it wasn't in their standard training regime. Some sections of the country were worse than others. Out of all of the agents that worked the Tina Bar dig in 1980, only one had an average science-forensics background! He is the one who insisted on scoring a grid in the sand .... "with the jawbone of an ass"! The sense of doing that became apparent later.

“Cain slew Abel with the jawbone of an ass,” He had left his molecular separator laser at home.

The point is, Bruce, in the 1970s there was a well developed arsenal of forensic methods available, to those that chose to use them. It was a management issue far more than a scientific toolkit issue.

 :)

[edit] Cooper may have left evidence behind thinking that LE wasn't up to the task. Or, he may have had no concern about evidence, in any event. We don't know who he was to know, do we! ;)

Idea:  Let's just assume he knew enough to get himself into trouble, but he didn't know that fingers leave finger prints! He probably ate red licorice and had a hula hoop?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on March 05, 2015, 11:58:12 PM
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I moved the discussion to here. we were in suspect and confessions. trying to keep the categories flowing correctly......

Sorry I posted here! Oh well . . . I cant keep track of the herd.

Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 06, 2015, 03:08:24 AM
Shut, you have lived a sheltered life. You can't imagine anyone robbing a bank or hijacking an airplane who is "normal"?

Criminals are not weird or abnormal in my observation. Did you see the docu on the Vatican that's on Netflix that I recommended?  The priests said mass in their vestments after having an all-night sex orgy. That is fairly normal behavior for the Vatican, as I understand it. The larger question is what to do about it. Clearly, one thing that I recommend is not to allow those fellows to be near children.

So, stealing an airplane could be something as simple as climbing a mountain - they do it just because it's there.

As for threatening to kill people with a bomb, lots of guys enjoy killing. I was surprised to learn from so many vets in therapy that they admitted they enjoyed the hunt immensely, and war was fun - they had the best sex of their lives.

Maybe DB Cooper just enjoyed the turn on. I think it is an investigatory mistake to think that DB Cooper was a guy like you, a man who does what you would do, thinks and feels as you do.

That perspective is what Sluggo called "cultural goggles" and I think it is an important dynamic to bring to the Cooper conversation.

I suspect that DB Cooper was a man very different from you or I.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 06, 2015, 03:12:53 AM
Georger:
Idea:  Let's just assume he knew enough to get himself into trouble, but he didn't know that fingers leave finger prints! He probably ate red licorice and had a hula hoop?


Bruce:
That's one idea, G.

Another is that DB Cooper was the smartest kid on the block and did something no other kid had ever done.  Then he ate licorice, of course.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on March 06, 2015, 06:49:36 AM
Quote
Shut, you have lived a sheltered life. You can't imagine anyone robbing a bank or hijacking an airplane who is "normal"?

I've hardly lived a sheltered life Bruce. committing a crime that has to do with death, or violence is not a normal thing to do. sure, people make mistakes and kill someone out of anger, or snap, but it's not premeditated in some cases. hijacking a plane is not normal, if it was we would have millions of them, no? I've been down the criminal road, have you? I'm still paying for it! I'm in my 50's now, this was a long time ago back in my late teens to early 20's.

Quote
I suspect that DB Cooper was a man very different from you or I.

Meaning, not normal?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on March 06, 2015, 02:52:47 PM
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The problems I'm seeing in this topic area is questions that could be asked on the existing topics. Sailshaw could of easily asked his question under the Flight path thread. it's hard to narrow down a basic question while we have existing areas where they can be asked already in place. perhaps this topic should be removed, or locked for the time being?

Thoughts?

Most, but not all, of my questions could be put into categories. However, I think a case can be made for having a Q&A thread like this so people can go to one place to seek answers to specific questions without changing the trajectories of existing threads. It's something I noticed on DZ, there would be a few pages of good information, and it would get derailed by something like a question or inane comment and the discussion stops and devolves to meaninglessness.

Actually a Q&A category might be a good idea. ????? 
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on March 06, 2015, 03:18:58 PM
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The problems I'm seeing in this topic area is questions that could be asked on the existing topics. Sailshaw could of easily asked his question under the Flight path thread. it's hard to narrow down a basic question while we have existing areas where they can be asked already in place. perhaps this topic should be removed, or locked for the time being?

Thoughts?

Most, but not all, of my questions could be put into categories. However, I think a case can be made for having a Q&A thread like this so people can go to one place to seek answers to specific questions without changing the trajectories of existing threads. It's something I noticed on DZ, there would be a few pages of good information, and it would get derailed by something like a question or inane comment and the discussion stops and devolves to meaninglessness.

Actually a Q&A category might be a good idea. ?????


The problems I see is it's hard to stay on one topic while discussing this case. we are currently in "General Questions About The Case". do we really need another thread? Tina Bar, and the flight path clash constantly. then while discussing a suspect other things come into play. the majority rules here on this forum. it's up to you guys to decide if another thread needs to be added.

Should I make a poll asking this question?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 06, 2015, 04:24:57 PM
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Quote
Shut, you have lived a sheltered life. You can't imagine anyone robbing a bank or hijacking an airplane who is "normal"?

I've hardly lived a sheltered life Bruce. committing a crime that has to do with death, or violence is not a normal thing to do. sure, people make mistakes and kill someone out of anger, or snap, but it's not premeditated in some cases. hijacking a plane is not normal, if it was we would have millions of them, no? I've been down the criminal road, have you? I'm still paying for it! I'm in my 50's now, this was a long time ago back in my late teens to early 20's.

Quote
I suspect that DB Cooper was a man very different from you or I.

Meaning, not normal?

Ah, what is normal? Maybe that is my cultural goggle - normal being healthy, stable, sound mind and body, etc...

I just suspect that DB Cooper is a lot different than I am. And I haven't heard anyone call me normal in quite some time.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on March 06, 2015, 04:39:00 PM
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The problems I'm seeing in this topic area is questions that could be asked on the existing topics. Sailshaw could of easily asked his question under the Flight path thread. it's hard to narrow down a basic question while we have existing areas where they can be asked already in place. perhaps this topic should be removed, or locked for the time being?

Thoughts?

Most, but not all, of my questions could be put into categories. However, I think a case can be made for having a Q&A thread like this so people can go to one place to seek answers to specific questions without changing the trajectories of existing threads. It's something I noticed on DZ, there would be a few pages of good information, and it would get derailed by something like a question or inane comment and the discussion stops and devolves to meaninglessness.

Actually a Q&A category might be a good idea. ?????


The problems I see is it's hard to stay on one topic while discussing this case. we are currently in "General Questions About The Case". do we really need another thread? Tina Bar, and the flight path clash constantly. then while discussing a suspect other things come into play. the majority rules here on this forum. it's up to you guys to decide if another thread needs to be added.

Should I make a poll asking this question?

Well we already have this thread: General Questions About the Case. That should handle any Q&A. People already ask questions and get answers here. We also have threads that never get used. How many pigeon holes are needed?   
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on March 06, 2015, 04:43:00 PM
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Quote
Shut, you have lived a sheltered life. You can't imagine anyone robbing a bank or hijacking an airplane who is "normal"?

I've hardly lived a sheltered life Bruce. committing a crime that has to do with death, or violence is not a normal thing to do. sure, people make mistakes and kill someone out of anger, or snap, but it's not premeditated in some cases. hijacking a plane is not normal, if it was we would have millions of them, no? I've been down the criminal road, have you? I'm still paying for it! I'm in my 50's now, this was a long time ago back in my late teens to early 20's.

Quote
I suspect that DB Cooper was a man very different from you or I.

Meaning, not normal?

Ah, what is normal? Maybe that is my cultural goggle - normal being healthy, stable, sound mind and body, etc...

I just suspect that DB Cooper is a lot different than I am. And I haven't heard anyone call me normal in quite some time.

Last time I checked, this was a DB Cooper discussion website .... not a Bruce Smith Psychoanalysis website! ??

You define normal however you want. People will either agree or disagree. Or ignore the whole thingy!

My interest is the historical facts in the DB Cooper Hijacking case: not the personality kah-kah of persons in DB Cooper social media threads on the Internet! Specifically I could care less what RobertMBlevins, Jo Weber, or msc others are doing-saying making up lying-about dirty tricks seeking fame and fortune, or what color underwear they were if any! I could care less and frankly do not wish to know what herds of goats and cats they have are and their names. I try to stick to the topic at hand and that is why I am here. Otherwise I would be somewhere else!   

If THAT is "hate mongering" as Blevins constantly refers to me as, then so be it! Mine is a personal choice I make. And I have other options available to me.


Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on March 06, 2015, 04:44:10 PM
Quote
Actually a Q&A category might be a good idea.

My post was in response to the above?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 06, 2015, 09:40:40 PM
Why are you so cranky, Georger?

Does your mother think you're normal?

Just askin'....

smile....
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on March 10, 2015, 12:11:01 AM
General Question:

In order for some of our suspects (specifically Wilson or Lepsy) to plan out this heist, they would need specific information about the 727 (flap settings, stall speed, knowledge of the aftstairs) that would not be available to the layman. In earlier discussions on this forum, I think it's been established that Cooper could not have been just "lucky".

So, what kinds of reference material could someone find on commercial jets in libraries? I've seen the fireman's guide to the 727, anything else?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 10, 2015, 12:47:02 AM
None. Not in 1971.

The information on the 727 and its requirements for a jump was top secret. Even after the DBC jump I understand that a FOIA request only provided a small amount, and that ultimately 10,000 pages of Boeing materials were delivered.

The only person I know who says he was familiar with the metrics before Cooper was Sailshaw. He hasn't said he knew the 727 could be jumped in 1971, he just knows where that information was available at Boeing. Apparently there was an aft stairs lab at the Renton plant.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on March 10, 2015, 12:48:20 AM
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General Question:

In order for some of our suspects (specifically Wilson or Lepsy) to plan out this heist, they would need specific information about the 727 (flap settings, stall speed, knowledge of the aftstairs) that would not be available to the layman. In earlier discussions on this forum, I think it's been established that Cooper could not have been just "lucky".

So, what kinds of reference material could someone find on commercial jets in libraries? I've seen the fireman's guide to the 727, anything else?

The information about the aft stairs was closely held.  The 727 modifications and test flights to permit dropping parachutists and cargo through the stairway was probably contracted for by the CIA either directly or through one of their aircraft operations such as Southern Air Transport.  And that work probably had a security classification and a "need to know" restriction.

If the Southeast Asia 727 operations were going to routinely lower and retract the aft stairs in flight, then they would probably have a special control panel for the stairs with more capability than the one for airline 727 stairs that were only operated when the aircraft was on the ground.  That could explain why Cooper had trouble operating the airliner stairs.  He had probably never seen that particular control panel before even if he had hands-on experience with the SEA 727s.

The aircraft performance type information was more readily available since the 727 had been in operation for more than five years at the time of the hijacking.  I personally don't know all the details, but in airline operation the number of flap settings were limited to perhaps five.  In the case of the 727, Cooper would have needed to know the setting at which the leading edge Krueger flaps and leading edge slats were deployed.  I don't personally know if they were deployed at a flap setting of 15 degrees or not, but Cooper would have needed that type of information from somewhere.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: EVickiW on March 10, 2015, 09:50:07 AM
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None. Not in 1971.

The information on the 727 and its requirements for a jump was top secret. Even after the DBC jump I understand that a FOIA request only provided a small amount, and that ultimately 10,000 pages of Boeing materials were delivered.

The only person I know who says he was familiar with the metrics before Cooper was Sailshaw. He hasn't said he knew the 727 could be jumped in 1971, he just knows where that information was available at Boeing. Apparently there was an aft stairs lab at the Renton plant.

However, Paul Cini planned a hi-jacking (in an alcohol induced state) two weeks prior to Cooper's jump. http://www.slate.com/articles/life/history/features/2013/skyjacker_of_the_day/paul_joseph_cini_hijacked_a_plane_because_he_had_an_idea_parachuting.html

In addition, Arthur Brinkley, hijacked a plane on June 4, 1970. He was found incompetent to stand trial in November of 1971.
http://www.slate.com/articles/life/history/features/2013/skyjacker_of_the_day/arthur_gates_brinkley_hijacked_a_jet_because_he_believed_the_irs_owed_him.html

How much information was published in the newspapers, or on the nightly news? 

Smokin99...can you use your magic and find old newspaper articles from these incidents?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: sailshaw on March 10, 2015, 10:30:49 AM
Bruce Smith:  You say: "The only person I know who says he was familiar with the metrics before Cooper was Sailshaw. He hasn't said he knew the 727 could be jumped in 1971, he just knows where that information was available at Boeing. Apparently there was an aft stairs lab at the Renton plant"

I say:   "It was logical to me in 1971 that it might be possible to open the airstairs and jump from a 727 in flight. That was the same thinking of Sheridan Peterson when he lived at my house ten years before Norjak. Bruce the aftstairs (lab?) were part of the Flight Controls Test Rig (FCTR) in the B-29 building on the East side of the Boeing Field in Seattle. The FCTR had all the hypraulic pipes and equipment in the same locations as on the plane including the Aft Airstairs that were functional and could be used to demonstrate how they worked too. Sheridan using his Boeing badge could have had entrance to the B-29 building once inside the fenced area around the building. John Yim was the Lead Engineer for the instrumentation work and was there full time along with Bob Harris the engineering aide. They would have let Sheridan play with and operated the airstairs when Sheridan worked at Boeing in the Manuals and Handbooks Group. There was no airstairs lab at the Renton plant that I know of and only the FCTR (B-29 hanger) that was under the control of the Mechanical Systems Test group that were in the 9-99 bldg on the West side of Boeing field."

Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Olemisscub on March 10, 2015, 11:14:46 AM
Would it not make logical sense to anyone paying attention that you could jump from the stairs of a 727? What knowledge was so top secret about that? If I'm Joe Schmo and I'm thinking that I could jump off the stairs, I think I would have also wanted to take off with the stairs down so the plane would never pressurize. It seems like he had to be convinced on the plane that they could be lowered in flight or am I wrong with that? Also, as a lay person with a passing interest in aviation (my dad used to own a Piper) I know that flaps slow a plane down. Although I don't know how the exact degrees work, I'm sure I could learn that pretty quickly.

Wasn't it the conclusion of the FBI that he was someone who knew a little about what he was doing, but by no means was even close to being an expert? A weekend warrior type who read a few books and is now a "know-it-all".
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on March 10, 2015, 02:01:05 PM
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General Question:

In order for some of our suspects (specifically Wilson or Lepsy) to plan out this heist, they would need specific information about the 727 (flap settings, stall speed, knowledge of the aftstairs) that would not be available to the layman. In earlier discussions on this forum, I think it's been established that Cooper could not have been just "lucky".

So, what kinds of reference material could someone find on commercial jets in libraries? I've seen the fireman's guide to the 727, anything else?

The information about the aft stairs was closely held.  The 727 modifications and test flights to permit dropping parachutists and cargo through the stairway was probably contracted for by the CIA either directly or through one of their aircraft operations such as Southern Air Transport.  And that work probably had a security classification and a "need to know" restriction.

If the Southeast Asia 727 operations were going to routinely lower and retract the aft stairs in flight, then they would probably have a special control panel for the stairs with more capability than the one for airline 727 stairs that were only operated when the aircraft was on the ground.  That could explain why Cooper had trouble operating the airliner stairs.  He had probably never seen that particular control panel before even if he had hands-on experience with the SEA 727s.

The aircraft performance type information was more readily available since the 727 had been in operation for more than five years at the time of the hijacking.  I personally don't know all the details, but in airline operation the number of flap settings were limited to perhaps five.  In the case of the 727, Cooper would have needed to know the setting at which the leading edge Krueger flaps and leading edge slats were deployed.  I don't personally know if they were deployed at a flap setting of 15 degrees or not, but Cooper would have needed that type of information from somewhere.

I am still of the opinion:

The stairs go up - the stairs go down.

People are observed going in and out, through a hole, via the stairs.

Cooper asked the crew to lower the stairs and open the hole.

So he was relying on the crew to do it for him.

He didn't know better? He gives no evidence he knows anything further about the entire matter? He just orders that the stairs be lowered and the door opened, while still on the ground. He didn't do it himself - he asked the crew to do it for him. There is no evidence in any of the exchanges that he knew anything about how the stairs operated.

The 'mere fact' that he asked the stairs be opened while still on the ground at SEA has been misinterpreted to mean 'he intended to jump close to Seattle'! The two have nothing to do with each other! Then it turns out he doesn't know anything, can't get the stairs down, he has to learn by trial-and-error, time passes ... so if he had intended to jump while still close to Seattle his lack of knowledge about how to operate the stairs got in the way!

Moreover, he wasn't even ready to jump until much later!

The idea that he intended to jump near Seattle is myth.

The idea that he is a technical expert on the stairs, is a myth.

The idea that he had top secret CIA info on the 727 stairs, is a myth until proven!

So far, he has no more proven technical education than the average Popular Mechanics reader. All we have are a bunch of assumed associations based on the random probabilities which arise because of the situation.

And if Tina's description of him tying off the money bag is correct, he does that with the wisdom and skill of a Cub Scout ... who hasn't read Popular Mechanics and Boy's Life!

[edit] an old physics teacher of mine has been awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor, along with others in his unit in WWII.     http://www.militarytimes.com/story/military/2015/01/19/devils-brigade-black-devils-special-forces-congressional-medal/21989267/


 






 
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Olemisscub on March 10, 2015, 02:34:51 PM
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So far, he has no more proven technical education than the average Popular Mechanics reader. All we have are a bunch of assumed associations based on the random probabilities which arise because of the situation.   

Good answer. I've never gotten the sense that DB was some aeronautical wizard or had some special knowledge of the 727. I think it's more probable that he was just some criminal who knew/guessed/assumed that you could jump out the back of the plane. He had some basic knowledge about the speed of a jet and about how the flaps worked, but like you said, that knowledge could have come from anywhere and most certainly doesn't require that he be someone who worked for Boeing or for an Airline or have been a former paratrooper or former military.

A schmo like Lepsy could just as easily have done what DB did and said what DB said as an expert like Peterson. At least that's the sense that I get about DB.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on March 10, 2015, 02:55:37 PM
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General Question:

In order for some of our suspects (specifically Wilson or Lepsy) to plan out this heist, they would need specific information about the 727 (flap settings, stall speed, knowledge of the aftstairs) that would not be available to the layman. In earlier discussions on this forum, I think it's been established that Cooper could not have been just "lucky".

So, what kinds of reference material could someone find on commercial jets in libraries? I've seen the fireman's guide to the 727, anything else?

The information about the aft stairs was closely held.  The 727 modifications and test flights to permit dropping parachutists and cargo through the stairway was probably contracted for by the CIA either directly or through one of their aircraft operations such as Southern Air Transport.  And that work probably had a security classification and a "need to know" restriction.

If the Southeast Asia 727 operations were going to routinely lower and retract the aft stairs in flight, then they would probably have a special control panel for the stairs with more capability than the one for airline 727 stairs that were only operated when the aircraft was on the ground.  That could explain why Cooper had trouble operating the airliner stairs.  He had probably never seen that particular control panel before even if he had hands-on experience with the SEA 727s.

The aircraft performance type information was more readily available since the 727 had been in operation for more than five years at the time of the hijacking.  I personally don't know all the details, but in airline operation the number of flap settings were limited to perhaps five.  In the case of the 727, Cooper would have needed to know the setting at which the leading edge Krueger flaps and leading edge slats were deployed.  I don't personally know if they were deployed at a flap setting of 15 degrees or not, but Cooper would have needed that type of information from somewhere.

I am still of the opinion:

The stairs go up - the stairs go down.

People are observed going in and out, through a hole, via the stairs.

Cooper asked the crew to lower the stairs and open the hole.

So he was relying on the crew to do it for him.

He didn't know better? He gives no evidence he knows anything further about the entire matter? He just orders that the stairs be lowered and the door opened, while still on the ground. He didn't do it himself - he asked the crew to do it for him. There is no evidence in any of the exchanges that he knew anything about how the stairs operated.

The 'mere fact' that he asked the stairs be opened while still on the ground at SEA has been misinterpreted to mean 'he intended to jump close to Seattle'! The two have nothing to do with each other! Then it turns out he doesn't know anything, can't get the stairs down, he has to learn by trial-and-error, time passes ... so if he had intended to jump while still close to Seattle his lack of knowledge about how to operate the stairs got in the way!

Moreover, he wasn't even ready to jump until much later!

The idea that he intended to jump near Seattle is myth.

The idea that he is a technical expert on the stairs, is a myth.

The idea that he had top secret CIA info on the 727 stairs, is a myth until proven!

So far, he has no more proven technical education than the average Popular Mechanics reader. All we have are a bunch of assumed associations based on the random probabilities which arise because of the situation.

And if Tina's description of him tying off the money bag is correct, he does that with the wisdom and skill of a Cub Scout ... who hasn't read Popular Mechanics and Boy's Life!

[edit] an old physics teacher of mine has been awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor, along with others in his unit in WWII.     http://www.militarytimes.com/story/military/2015/01/19/devils-brigade-black-devils-special-forces-congressional-medal/21989267/


 

Georger, The Congressional Gold Medal mentioned in that article is not the Congressional Medal of Honor.  The Congressional Gold Medal appears to be awarded to personnel who are members of certain groups.  The Medal of Honor is awarded to individuals only and there are less than 100 holders of that medal who are alive today.

After Cooper argued with Rataczak about taking off with the stairs down, Cooper agreed to leave them up for the takeoff but he reportedly told Tina that he knew that the airliner could takeoff with the stairs down.  And he was right on that point.  That indicates prior knowledge of the stairs.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on March 10, 2015, 03:07:28 PM
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So far, he has no more proven technical education than the average Popular Mechanics reader. All we have are a bunch of assumed associations based on the random probabilities which arise because of the situation.   

Good answer. I've never gotten the sense that DB was some aeronautical wizard or had some special knowledge of the 727. I think it's more probable that he was just some criminal who knew/guessed/assumed that you could jump out the back of the plane. He had some basic knowledge about the speed of a jet and about how the flaps worked, but like you said, that knowledge could have come from anywhere and most certainly doesn't require that he be someone who worked for Boeing or for an Airline or have been a former paratrooper or former military.

A schmo like Lepsy could just as easily have done what DB did and said what DB said as an expert like Peterson. At least that's the sense that I get about DB.

One puzzle is the particles on his tie. But, the tie could have been borrowed, stolen ... we don't even know that it is his tie. It could have been stolen and he left it precisely because it wasn't him? We just don't know. The butts and his glass are him but they go missing! Maybe a few finger prints left in the plane are him? The seat he sat is was kept. Has it ever been swiped for evidence? Where is the seat? ...... the questions are almost endless.
 

 
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on March 10, 2015, 03:26:43 PM
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General Question:

In order for some of our suspects (specifically Wilson or Lepsy) to plan out this heist, they would need specific information about the 727 (flap settings, stall speed, knowledge of the aftstairs) that would not be available to the layman. In earlier discussions on this forum, I think it's been established that Cooper could not have been just "lucky".

So, what kinds of reference material could someone find on commercial jets in libraries? I've seen the fireman's guide to the 727, anything else?

The information about the aft stairs was closely held.  The 727 modifications and test flights to permit dropping parachutists and cargo through the stairway was probably contracted for by the CIA either directly or through one of their aircraft operations such as Southern Air Transport.  And that work probably had a security classification and a "need to know" restriction.

If the Southeast Asia 727 operations were going to routinely lower and retract the aft stairs in flight, then they would probably have a special control panel for the stairs with more capability than the one for airline 727 stairs that were only operated when the aircraft was on the ground.  That could explain why Cooper had trouble operating the airliner stairs.  He had probably never seen that particular control panel before even if he had hands-on experience with the SEA 727s.

The aircraft performance type information was more readily available since the 727 had been in operation for more than five years at the time of the hijacking.  I personally don't know all the details, but in airline operation the number of flap settings were limited to perhaps five.  In the case of the 727, Cooper would have needed to know the setting at which the leading edge Krueger flaps and leading edge slats were deployed.  I don't personally know if they were deployed at a flap setting of 15 degrees or not, but Cooper would have needed that type of information from somewhere.

I am still of the opinion:

The stairs go up - the stairs go down.

People are observed going in and out, through a hole, via the stairs.

Cooper asked the crew to lower the stairs and open the hole.

So he was relying on the crew to do it for him.

He didn't know better? He gives no evidence he knows anything further about the entire matter? He just orders that the stairs be lowered and the door opened, while still on the ground. He didn't do it himself - he asked the crew to do it for him. There is no evidence in any of the exchanges that he knew anything about how the stairs operated.

The 'mere fact' that he asked the stairs be opened while still on the ground at SEA has been misinterpreted to mean 'he intended to jump close to Seattle'! The two have nothing to do with each other! Then it turns out he doesn't know anything, can't get the stairs down, he has to learn by trial-and-error, time passes ... so if he had intended to jump while still close to Seattle his lack of knowledge about how to operate the stairs got in the way!

Moreover, he wasn't even ready to jump until much later!

The idea that he intended to jump near Seattle is myth.

The idea that he is a technical expert on the stairs, is a myth.

The idea that he had top secret CIA info on the 727 stairs, is a myth until proven!

So far, he has no more proven technical education than the average Popular Mechanics reader. All we have are a bunch of assumed associations based on the random probabilities which arise because of the situation.

And if Tina's description of him tying off the money bag is correct, he does that with the wisdom and skill of a Cub Scout ... who hasn't read Popular Mechanics and Boy's Life!

[edit] an old physics teacher of mine has been awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor, along with others in his unit in WWII.     http://www.militarytimes.com/story/military/2015/01/19/devils-brigade-black-devils-special-forces-congressional-medal/21989267/


 

Georger, The Congressional Gold Medal mentioned in that article is not the Congressional Medal of Honor.  The Congressional Gold Medal appears to be awarded to personnel who are members of certain groups.  The Medal of Honor is awarded to individuals only and there are less than 100 holders of that medal who are alive today.

After Cooper argued with Rataczak about taking off with the stairs down, Cooper agreed to leave them up for the takeoff but he reportedly told Tina that he knew that the airliner could takeoff with the stairs down.  And he was right on that point.  That indicates prior knowledge of the stairs.

Correct on the first. I misspoke.

Correct on his alleged remark to Tina. He doesn't tell Tina 'why' he knows what he says. We have no way of knowing if he is conveying first-hand knowledge or hearsay from something he had read or heard or believed. He accedes the point and isn't ready to bail straight out of SEA in any event. He could have 'demanded' the stairs be put down - he has the bomb - he can demand anything he wants!

Maybe the CIA has the cigarette butts and did their own testing?

 
 
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on March 10, 2015, 07:42:23 PM
Quote
After Cooper argued with Rataczak about taking off with the stairs down, Cooper agreed to leave them up for the takeoff but he reportedly told Tina that he knew that the airliner could takeoff with the stairs down.  And he was right on that point.  That indicates prior knowledge of the stairs.

In all the accounts I read, Cooper was very confident the stairs weren't going to be a problem whether down or up at takeoff, which suggests prior knowledge. His understanding of the flap settings implies prior knowledge. Knowing the 727 flies slow enough to jump from safely, implies prior knowledge. Knowing the technical names of the stairs, and of the plane's phone system, implies prior knowledge. Add on his apparent comfort in putting on a parachute harness, you have a lot of knowledge to account for.

While the prior hijackings were in the news, it's asking a lot for someone like Lepsy to learn all those things in 11 days. In order to plan this hijacking so quickly, Cooper would have to already know a bunch of stuff. Even ignoring the particle evidence on the tie that eliminates them as suspects, Lepsy and Wilson are over their heads. Perhaps Lepsy and Wilson could copy the hijacking after someone else did it to completion; the fact Cooper was the first to actually jump out of the aircraft puts him at a higher level.

Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on March 10, 2015, 07:46:45 PM
There is only one person on the radar that would have this type of knowledge, and that would be old McCoy.....he was the first to copy, and fast out of the gate. what was it 4 months later?


But then again we have Peterson, and Gossett.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: EVickiW on March 10, 2015, 10:10:38 PM
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Quote
After Cooper argued with Rataczak about taking off with the stairs down, Cooper agreed to leave them up for the takeoff but he reportedly told Tina that he knew that the airliner could takeoff with the stairs down.  And he was right on that point.  That indicates prior knowledge of the stairs.

In all the accounts I read, Cooper was very confident the stairs weren't going to be a problem whether down or up at takeoff, which suggests prior knowledge. His understanding of the flap settings implies prior knowledge. Knowing the 727 flies slow enough to jump from safely, implies prior knowledge. Knowing the technical names of the stairs, and of the plane's phone system, implies prior knowledge. Add on his apparent comfort in putting on a parachute harness, you have a lot of knowledge to account for.

While the prior hijackings were in the news, it's asking a lot for someone like Lepsy to learn all those things in 11 days. In order to plan this hijacking so quickly, Cooper would have to already know a bunch of stuff. Even ignoring the particle evidence on the tie that eliminates them as suspects, Lepsy and Wilson are over their heads. Perhaps Lepsy and Wilson could copy the hijacking after someone else did it to completion; the fact Cooper was the first to actually jump out of the aircraft puts him at a higher level.

The "knowing" of the technical terms could be the flight attendant using the correct name of the stairs and the phone. They were the ones relaying the messages from Cooper to the cockpit. However, it does not take a rocket surgeon ;) to read a sign posted nearby.

(http://Aft placard.jpg)

Then there is the tie. Was it Cooper's? Where did he get it? Carr said it looked cheap. Thrift store purchase beforehand? How could it eliminate anyone if they do not know the source of the tie?

This might be a question for NMIWrecks, but is putting on a parachute harness similar to donning scuba gear?

When our family appeared on the episode of Unsolved Mysteries, I spoke with US Marshal John Donahue about my father. He stated our Dad was a very smart man that could have been very well off if he used his brain and talents for the greater good.   

Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on March 10, 2015, 10:15:34 PM
I wear a safety harness often (see below) it's simple to put on, but every time a greenhorn needs one he is lost at trying to put it on....
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Olemisscub on March 10, 2015, 10:19:55 PM
I admire some of you guys. I don't think I could trust my life to a piece of metal and some stitching. Guess I'm a coward!
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on March 10, 2015, 10:22:46 PM
Quote
The "knowing" of the technical terms could be the flight attendant using the correct name of the stairs and the phone. They were the ones relaying the messages from Cooper to the cockpit. However, it does not take a rocket surgeon ;) to read a sign posted nearby.



Then there is the tie. Was it Cooper's? Where did he get it? Carr said it looked cheap. Thrift store purchase beforehand? How could it eliminate anyone if they do not know the source of the tie?

I agree, I have very little doubt Wilson could put most everything in this heist together. Not sure he could cover all that ground in two weeks. None of the other copycats were able to do it that fast.

I'm not a thrift-shop kind of guy, and maybe I've made this point before, but wouldn't a thrift shop sell the tie and tie clasp separately? I honestly don't know. Is the tie clasp gold-filled or gold plate, or is it so cheap that someone wouldn't bother separating the two?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: EVickiW on March 10, 2015, 10:32:01 PM
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I agree, I have very little doubt Wilson could put most everything in this heist together. Not sure he could cover all that ground in two weeks. None of the other copycats were able to do it that fast.

I'm not a thrift-shop kind of guy, and maybe I've made this point before, but wouldn't a thrift shop sell the tie and tie clasp separately? I honestly don't know. Is the tie clasp gold-filled or gold plate, or is it so cheap that someone wouldn't bother separating the two?


Most everything my mother purchased for our family was from a thrift shop. He may have "made" the money, but my mom did not have it to spend. In 1968, we moved from a mobile home park in St. Paul,  to the park next to the DQ in St. Cloud, then a few months later in 1969 to Brainerd. My dad was a bartender at Pauline's nightclub before he returned to St. Paul in 1970 to his "print shop" and his job at Mayflower Moving and Storage.

Shutter did research on the tie clasp. It was a cheap men's gift set.

If you followed the first hi-jacking, it was a year prior to Paul Cini. He was found incompetent to stand trial in November 1971 for the hijacking the year prior.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on March 10, 2015, 10:37:13 PM
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I admire some of you guys. I don't think I could trust my life to a piece of metal and some stitching. Guess I'm a coward!


I know lots of tough guys that are scared to go on anything higher than 10 feet. I don't look down on anyone not wanting to go up a swingstage, or any aerial lift. (no pun intended)

We use to travel a lot to Florida, or Canada for vacation when I was younger. I use to be terrified of crossing bridges.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 10, 2015, 10:54:12 PM
Shutter, you should try the westbound span of the Tacoma Narrows Bridge - it's a steel mesh deck and you can see the water as you drive! OMG!!! I get the super heebie-jeebies.

As for learning how to do the Cooper jump, Paul Cini was not a good teacher.  He choose a DC-8, with only a side hatch for an exit.

Not such a good choice.

I know you guys are enjoying a Group Hug on the notion that jumping from a 727 in 1971 twasn't a big deal and just about anybody cudda known about it if they wanted. That's not what skydivers from that era tell me.

This conversation must be driving 377 crazy, because on November 24, 1971 he had a technical manual on the 727 and didn't know the plane could be jumped until the next day, learning from Cooper like most of the world.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on March 10, 2015, 11:06:11 PM
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I admire some of you guys. I don't think I could trust my life to a piece of metal and some stitching. Guess I'm a coward!


I know lots of tough guys that are scared to go on anything higher than 10 feet. I don't look down on anyone not wanting to go up a swingstage, or any aerial lift. (no pun intended)

We use to travel a lot to Florida, or Canada for vacation when I was younger. I use to be terrified of crossing bridges.

FULL DISCLOSURE:  I have been flying as a passenger since I was about 9 years old and as a pilot (student or fully licensed) since I was 15.  I have flown sailplanes to 36,500 feet above sea level.  Nevertheless, when I am more than two feet above the ground, I am VERY careful.  Altitude doesn't scare me in airplanes, but when the ground is close as when I am on a ladder or maybe the roof of my house, I don't take any chances. 
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: nmiwrecks on March 10, 2015, 11:08:11 PM
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Quote
After Cooper argued with Rataczak about taking off with the stairs down, Cooper agreed to leave them up for the takeoff but he reportedly told Tina that he knew that the airliner could takeoff with the stairs down.  And he was right on that point.  That indicates prior knowledge of the stairs.

In all the accounts I read, Cooper was very confident the stairs weren't going to be a problem whether down or up at takeoff, which suggests prior knowledge. His understanding of the flap settings implies prior knowledge. Knowing the 727 flies slow enough to jump from safely, implies prior knowledge. Knowing the technical names of the stairs, and of the plane's phone system, implies prior knowledge. Add on his apparent comfort in putting on a parachute harness, you have a lot of knowledge to account for.

While the prior hijackings were in the news, it's asking a lot for someone like Lepsy to learn all those things in 11 days. In order to plan this hijacking so quickly, Cooper would have to already know a bunch of stuff. Even ignoring the particle evidence on the tie that eliminates them as suspects, Lepsy and Wilson are over their heads. Perhaps Lepsy and Wilson could copy the hijacking after someone else did it to completion; the fact Cooper was the first to actually jump out of the aircraft puts him at a higher level.

The "knowing" of the technical terms could be the flight attendant using the correct name of the stairs and the phone. They were the ones relaying the messages from Cooper to the cockpit. However, it does not take a rocket surgeon ;) to read a sign posted nearby.

(http://Aft placard.jpg)

Then there is the tie. Was it Cooper's? Where did he get it? Carr said it looked cheap. Thrift store purchase beforehand? How could it eliminate anyone if they do not know the source of the tie?

This might be a question for NMIWrecks, but is putting on a parachute harness similar to donning scuba gear?

A parachute harness looks much more complicated to don than a typical scuba bc harness to me.  I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to skydiving harnesses, so maybe somebody with some experience can tell us how long it would take to train someone to don the harness.

The intriguing thing about this case is sometimes there is no clear answer to a question.  The Cooper suspect appears to have some knowledge of skydiving equipment, yet selects the wrong reserve chute (dummy) and the non-maneuverable main chute. Bruce did make a good point that the NV8 (or 6) would be better suited for a high speed opening than the sport chute because it was stronger, so it could be argued he did pick the right chute. 

My opinion is he wasn't a very experienced skydiver, though the arguments the other way are pretty solid also.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on March 10, 2015, 11:11:09 PM
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Shutter, you should try the westbound span of the Tacoma Narrows Bridge - it's a steel mesh deck and you can see the water as you drive! OMG!!! I get the super heebie-jeebies.

As for learning how to do the Cooper jump, Paul Cini was not a good teacher.  He choose a DC-8, with only a side hatch for an exit.

Not such a good choice.

I know you guys are enjoying a Group Hug on the notion that jumping from a 727 in 1971 twasn't a big deal and just about anybody cudda known about it if they wanted. That's not what skydivers from that era tell me.

This conversation must be driving 377 crazy, because on November 24, 1971 he had a technical manual on the 727 and didn't know the plane could be jumped until the next day, learning from Cooper like most of the world.

If you think either of the Tacoma Narrow bridges is bad, then you should give the bridge over the Royal Gorge in Colorado a try.  To me it looked like the "flooring" was simply 2" by 6" planks laid on a metal structure and not even bolted down.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on March 10, 2015, 11:16:52 PM
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I agree, I have very little doubt Wilson could put most everything in this heist together. Not sure he could cover all that ground in two weeks. None of the other copycats were able to do it that fast.

I'm not a thrift-shop kind of guy, and maybe I've made this point before, but wouldn't a thrift shop sell the tie and tie clasp separately? I honestly don't know. Is the tie clasp gold-filled or gold plate, or is it so cheap that someone wouldn't bother separating the two?


Most everything my mother purchased for our family was from a thrift shop. He may have "made" the money, but my mom did not have it to spend. In 1968, we moved from a mobile home park in St. Paul,  to the park next to the DQ in St. Cloud, then a few months later in 1969 to Brainerd. My dad was a bartender at Pauline's nightclub before he returned to St. Paul in 1970 to his "print shop" and his job at Mayflower Moving and Storage.

Shutter did research on the tie clasp. It was a cheap men's gift set.

If you followed the first hi-jacking, it was a year prior to Paul Cini. He was found incompetent to stand trial in November 1971 for the hijacking the year prior.


From what I can find, Cini was the first to "guess" about the possibility of jumping, whereas all previous hijackings had been about taking the plane to some other country.

Cooper not only picked up on the possibility of jumping, he picked the right aircraft, in the right configuration [and the right hijacking tool]. And then, after getting all the prep right, he was able to complete the plan and get out of the aircraft with a parachute on.

None of this is to say Wilson or someone like him could not have done this, but if I had to give what the probability of someone with no prior knowledge of aviation or parachuting planning everything out like this, I would put that probability very low.

Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on March 10, 2015, 11:23:07 PM
Quote

The "knowing" of the technical terms could be the flight attendant using the correct name of the stairs and the phone. They were the ones relaying the messages from Cooper to the cockpit. However, it does not take a rocket surgeon ;) to read a sign posted nearby.

(http://Aft placard.jpg)


Vicki, Do you know the source of the picture of the placard in your post?  Based on my not-always-correct memory, that placard is not the one that is discussed on Tom Kaye's web page as having come off in flight.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: EVickiW on March 10, 2015, 11:34:03 PM
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Quote

The "knowing" of the technical terms could be the flight attendant using the correct name of the stairs and the phone. They were the ones relaying the messages from Cooper to the cockpit. However, it does not take a rocket surgeon ;) to read a sign posted nearby.

(http://Aft placard.jpg)


Vicki, Do you know the source of the picture of the placard in your post?  Based on my not-always-correct memory, that placard is not the one that is discussed on Tom Kaye's web page as having come off in flight.


I Googled searched images and found it on the SeattlePI article:

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/A-look-back-at-D-B-Cooper-a-wanted-criminal-and-5914795.php#photo-781011

Under the photo it states:

Jan. 17, 1979: Cowlitz County Sheriff's Detective Bob Nix displays an exit placard from a Boeing 727, found by a hunter the previous November near Toutle, Wash. The FBI confirmed the placard matched one missing from the plane hijacked by D.B. Cooper in November 1971. (The Associated Press/provided by seattlepi.com file) Photo: P-I File
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on March 10, 2015, 11:58:41 PM
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Shutter, you should try the westbound span of the Tacoma Narrows Bridge - it's a steel mesh deck and you can see the water as you drive! OMG!!! I get the super heebie-jeebies.

As for learning how to do the Cooper jump, Paul Cini was not a good teacher.  He choose a DC-8, with only a side hatch for an exit.

Not such a good choice.

I know you guys are enjoying a Group Hug on the notion that jumping from a 727 in 1971 twasn't a big deal and just about anybody cudda known about it if they wanted. That's not what skydivers from that era tell me.

This conversation must be driving 377 crazy, because on November 24, 1971 he had a technical manual on the 727 and didn't know the plane could be jumped until the next day, learning from Cooper like most of the world.

I grew up with a lot of fearless guys. I assure you there are smart fearless people who would do the Cooper hijacking without any hesitation, without skydiving training, any experience flying, etc. The only essential ingredients are deciding to do it, putting together a plan, then doing it! Period. They might get injured or even die doing it but they would 'do it' if motivated to do so. Whether 377 knew the 727 was jumpable or not - is totally irrelevant!  :) Does he think the world at large waits for him to acknowledge something before people do what they do in life thinking they must do it, or it can be done, etc?  Manuals are totally irrelevant to this whole thing! :)

The story of David vs Goliath wasn't in some manual! But every kid with a sling or a bow knew it was possible! People had been bringing down a lot tougher game than Goliath with slings and stones and bows and arrows for millennia! Arm chair manual readers finally had to revise after the fact!  :D

I assume Cooper was one of those. Or he was plain crazy. But the fearless smart people among us accomplish what Cooper did, every day of their lives ..... just getting up and going to work and surviving one more day, and none of them are crazy! It was the system that was wrong (in the manual!).

Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: smokin99 on March 11, 2015, 01:43:16 AM
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None. Not in 1971.

The information on the 727 and its requirements for a jump was top secret. Even after the DBC jump I understand that a FOIA request only provided a small amount, and that ultimately 10,000 pages of Boeing materials were delivered.

The only person I know who says he was familiar with the metrics before Cooper was Sailshaw. He hasn't said he knew the 727 could be jumped in 1971, he just knows where that information was available at Boeing. Apparently there was an aft stairs lab at the Renton plant.

However, Paul Cini planned a hi-jacking (in an alcohol induced state) two weeks prior to Cooper's jump. http://www.slate.com/articles/life/history/features/2013/skyjacker_of_the_day/paul_joseph_cini_hijacked_a_plane_because_he_had_an_idea_parachuting.html

In addition, Arthur Brinkley, hijacked a plane on June 4, 1970. He was found incompetent to stand trial in November of 1971.
http://www.slate.com/articles/life/history/features/2013/skyjacker_of_the_day/arthur_gates_brinkley_hijacked_a_jet_because_he_believed_the_irs_owed_him.html

How much information was published in the newspapers, or on the nightly news? 

Smokin99...can you use your magic and find old newspaper articles from these incidents?

The only think I could find was the regular stuff - Cini was about to put the parachute on and jump at 3000 feet from the dc-8 when he got bonked in the head with an ax. Idiot put his gun down to put on the parachute. Cooper: Note to self...don't do what that guy did.

Was Boeing the only source that knew the 727 could be opened in flight and jumped? What about George Doole and his Air America? According to at least one video out there they were at least testing using 727s in early 70s. Yeah, it might have been cover for CIA but sure didn't look like double secret ops to me in the videos. Besides, all any secret needs in order to be common knowledge is two guys sitting at a bar...... or one guy with a video camera  ;D
I'll have to research this to get exact dates, but the video is labeled circa 1970,71.

On another note....One thing I did notice is that in many news accounts immediately post hijacking, the officials are talking like jumping from the aft door in flight was no big deal and safer than jumping from any other opening -- just thought it was interesting that it went from the great unknown to "no big deal" overnight.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: smokin99 on March 11, 2015, 02:09:12 AM
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Shutter, you should try the westbound span of the Tacoma Narrows Bridge - it's a steel mesh deck and you can see the water as you drive! OMG!!! I get the super heebie-jeebies.

As for learning how to do the Cooper jump, Paul Cini was not a good teacher.  He choose a DC-8, with only a side hatch for an exit.

Not such a good choice.

I know you guys are enjoying a Group Hug on the notion that jumping from a 727 in 1971 twasn't a big deal and just about anybody cudda known about it if they wanted. That's not what skydivers from that era tell me.

This conversation must be driving 377 crazy, because on November 24, 1971 he had a technical manual on the 727 and didn't know the plane could be jumped until the next day, learning from Cooper like most of the world.

I grew up with a lot of fearless guys. I assure you there are smart fearless people who would do the Cooper hijacking without any hesitation, without skydiving training, any experience flying, etc. The only essential ingredients are deciding to do it, putting together a plan, then doing it! Period. They might get injured or even die doing it but they would 'do it' if motivated to do so. Whether 377 knew the 727 was jumpable or not - is totally irrelevant!  :) Does he think the world at large waits for him to acknowledge something before people do what they do in life thinking they must do it, or it can be done, etc?  Manuals are totally irrelevant to this whole thing! :)

The story of David vs Goliath wasn't in some manual! But every kid with a sling or a bow knew it was possible! People had been bringing down a lot tougher game than Goliath with slings and stones and bows and arrows for millennia! Arm chair manual readers finally had to revise after the fact!  :D

I assume Cooper was one of those. Or he was plain crazy. But the fearless smart people among us accomplish what Cooper did, every day of their lives ..... just getting up and going to work and surviving one more day, and none of them are crazy! It was the system that was wrong (in the manual!).

Off subject kind of but I always kind of like the fact that history has it that the Anglin and Morris Bros Alcatrez escape was plotted using some flotation info from an issue of Popular Mechanics. Who would have thunk it?  :) Whether they survived or not is up for speculation, and even if their primary motivation was literally a choice between the devil or the deep blue sea, they obviously had the essential ingredients you mentioned to go for it. Who knows - it could have been just some random information that Cooper came across in a news story or magazine or in a bar or maybe he knew just enough to figure out the rest.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on March 11, 2015, 02:15:25 AM
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None. Not in 1971.

The information on the 727 and its requirements for a jump was top secret. Even after the DBC jump I understand that a FOIA request only provided a small amount, and that ultimately 10,000 pages of Boeing materials were delivered.

The only person I know who says he was familiar with the metrics before Cooper was Sailshaw. He hasn't said he knew the 727 could be jumped in 1971, he just knows where that information was available at Boeing. Apparently there was an aft stairs lab at the Renton plant.

However, Paul Cini planned a hi-jacking (in an alcohol induced state) two weeks prior to Cooper's jump. http://www.slate.com/articles/life/history/features/2013/skyjacker_of_the_day/paul_joseph_cini_hijacked_a_plane_because_he_had_an_idea_parachuting.html

In addition, Arthur Brinkley, hijacked a plane on June 4, 1970. He was found incompetent to stand trial in November of 1971.
http://www.slate.com/articles/life/history/features/2013/skyjacker_of_the_day/arthur_gates_brinkley_hijacked_a_jet_because_he_believed_the_irs_owed_him.html

How much information was published in the newspapers, or on the nightly news? 

Smokin99...can you use your magic and find old newspaper articles from these incidents?

The only think I could find was the regular stuff - Cini was about to put the parachute on and jump at 3000 feet from the dc-8 when he got bonked in the head with an ax. Idiot put his gun down to put on the parachute. Cooper: Note to self...don't do what that guy did.

Was Boeing the only source that knew the 727 could be opened in flight and jumped? What about George Doole and his Air America? According to at least one video out there they were at least testing using 727s in early 70s. Yeah, it might have been cover for CIA but sure didn't look like double secret ops to me in the videos. Besides, all any secret needs in order to be common knowledge is two guys sitting at a bar...... or one guy with a video camera  ;D
I'll have to research this to get exact dates, but the video is labeled circa 1970,71.

On another note....One thing I did notice is that in many news accounts immediately post hijacking, the officials are talking like jumping from the aft door in flight was no big deal and safer than jumping from any other opening -- just thought it was interesting that it went from the great unknown to "no big deal" overnight.

Exactly. I also think too much has been made of the supposed 'secrecy' of the aft stairs ... jumpable? Any plane with a hole in it big enough to get through (side or rear) is theoretically "jumpable" ?.

There are many ways Cooper could have come to believe a 727 was jumpable. That the rear door-stairs could be opened in flight. He could have just asked around. He could have asked at an American Legion dinner?  He could have called the Sales Div of Boeing and posed as a buyer and somebody probably would have told him! "Our 727 can do anything!" :)
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on March 12, 2015, 12:59:41 AM
A very penetrating post showed up at DZ tonight that I think is worth pasting here, for comment - it raises some very important questions which frankly deserve some serious answers. Thanks. G.

Reichenbach

Mar 11, 2015, 9:12 PM
Post #57681 of 57681 (12 views)
Re: [Robert99] McCoy lawsuit [In reply to]    Can't Post

I'd like to ask a very legitimate question to you "Cooper fans."

No offense Robert but I can't even get past the fact that the very cover of Into The Blast, represents Cooper with a sport parachute.

If Gray had access to the FBI files, then OMG, where are they in his book? Surely that book would be the textbook, if not the end all reference book on Cooper. Plus the symposium I'm sure was fantastic but your admiration for him for organizing what I see as a successful marketing and promotional event for Skyjack, I don't get. Why are you carrying Gray on your shoulders?

Same with Tosaw, he connects his facts with creative narrative and you people are so eager to regurgitate his pablum as truth. Tosaw discovered what about Cooper?

And the real McCoy? Seriously? I think it's an insult to Dan Cooper to say McCoy was Cooper. McCoy was an obvious idiot. Identical MO?Fingerprints? jumpsuit? Handwriting? Blabbing up a storm? $400k+ in his house? Tina didn't say he's Cooper. Flo didn't say he's Cooper. Alice didn't say he's Cooper. Please.

Just because you CAN write a book about Cooper doesn't mean you know jack about Cooper or that you are close to being even a mediocre author.

So, why do you people have such baseless respect for people who write (entertaining) books about Cooper?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Olemisscub on March 12, 2015, 02:27:02 AM
Just looked at that page on DZ. Blevins says this:

Quote
First, on the cover. It looked cool. We knew it wasn't the 'right' type of chute but frankly, we just didn't care because the book isn't about which parachute Cooper used.


Holy shit....I just....there are no words. "It looked cool." Seriously?

I'll keep his viewpoint in mind when I write my book about the Civil War. On the cover I'll give the Confederates M-16's because, ya know, it looks cool.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on March 12, 2015, 01:13:11 PM
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So here's a question I have that doesn't fit anywhere:

Today ties aren't universal. Most people who wear ties regularly, knot them properly. I know of nobody who wears ties and mixes knotted and clip-on ties. The only people I know who wear clip-on ties are kids working as bus boys in restaurants.

When ties were more universal, did people regularly buy both for convenience?

Yes. Believe it or not, a lot of men didn't know how to 'tie' a tie! Or never could remember, or weren't very good at it. The clip on version was therefore mandatory for some. You generally wore ties to formal occasions. Or, as part of a dress uniform (military). You learned how to tie a tie from mom, Dad, older sister, older brother, girlfriend's mom or Dad or older sister or brother ... or drill Sergeant (it's in the manual somewhere!). Bow ties were very difficult for some to learn how to tie and usually reserved for the most formal occasions. Straight tie on dress uniform - bow tie at very formal military events (dances etc at the Academy). Musicians preferred bow tie - leaves the neck open and doesn't restrict air flow - are required for formal concerts. The clip-on tie solves the tying problem,  solves the issue of uniformity of appearance in groups of people, and won't hang or strangle you ...

The issue of dimples in hand-tied ties is a separate issue. See chapter-13 in the manual or ask Uncle Levy!
 ;)
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on March 13, 2015, 02:46:51 AM
Who FIRST used the term "Cooper Royality"?

Smith, Blevins, and Weber have been sniping back and forth about this for months at DZ, each one accusing the other. The answer is quite simple but it is Robert Blevins who took over the term and has been using it for years in a pejorative manner. Rest assured about that self-evident fact at Dropzone.

The origin of the term "Cooper Royality" is quite simple, as any search shows. It was 377 who invented the term back on Nov 27 2011, then Meyer Louie used the term next on Dec 10 2012, then Blevins picked up the term in response to Meyer Louis ... and Blevins has been the one using the term in a pejorative sense ever since, as follows.

(A) On Nov 11, 2011, 377 commenting on the up-coming Cooper Symposium in Washington, tagged Brian Ingram and other principles in the Cooper story as "Cooper Royalty". 377 was merely giving a roster of important people who were going to attend the Symposium and no pejorative sense was intended or implied. 377's original post is here: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4229298;search_string=Cooper%20Royalty;guest=167495339#4229298

(B) Almost a year later on Dec 10, 2012, Meyer Louis in reply to a long list of people, addressed Blevins' claim that Blevins' work on KC was ground-breaking and Meyer said: nothing personal, it just seems far fetched to think you hold the key to this crazy case we all call DB Cooper, many claim Marla is nuts, Jo is nuts, Cook is nuts etc.. but I can't see that you have anything special  Then Meyer concluded his post with the remark: I have another point to make Blevins. For some reason you think you are on the same level as Georger and others. Well, you're not. Co-writing a book and appearing on Decoded does not make you an expert. Some folks here are playing in the Big League with the big boys. You aren't there yet. Spending years and years on this case, interfacing with the FBI and the key players on a regular basis, for years, makes one an expert -- makes one "Cooper royalty" if you will. There are only a handful of people in this elite group. You're not there yet -- and you want to be so badly. Give it time Blevins.    

(C) Blevins replied to MeyerLouie saying he never had considered himself special, but the launched a long winded attack against me and others finally saying: See, here's the Real Deal: ... I'm just Robert the Sci Fi Guy who Occasionally Edits Books. When I'm not doing that, I'm out in the mountains or something listening to Mariner or Seahawk games or MP3's ... Look, if I considered myself "Cooper Royalty" I would have showed up at the Portland Symposium with my slideshow gear and countered Marla's claims with some of my own. ... On Georger: He jumps on every post I make, no matter what it is. So IMHO his credibility, his opinions, mean zip to me. You have to pick and choose when to jump down someone's throat, and that should be for 'ridiculous assumptions' only, not because you just don't like someone. ... And in his next post Blevins picks up and starts using the term "Cooper Royalty" in a pejorative sense, he then wrote his "article" at Newsvine condemning "Cooper Royalty", he then invented a further negative term "Cooperland", and he is still using these terms almost daily at Dropzone, 3 years later! Jo Weber then picked up and began using the term in a negative way, about a year later.

Blevins' argument has always been that "Cooper Royalty" are flawed if not dishonest people, who are untrustworthy and Hate Mongers!

This term "Hate Mongers" is an exclusive term invented and used only by RobertMBlevins!

That is the factual origin and use of the terms "Cooper Royalty" and "Cooperland" and "Hate Mangers". From a completely neutral term coined by Mark (377), to Meyer's use of the term to counter Blevins' claims that Blevins and his work were somehow special, to Blevins' use of the term in a pejorative sense which starts on Dec 10, 2012 and continues right up to today, all at Dropzone.

It was also Mark-377 who coined the term "Venom Magnet" in reference of Bob Blevins clear back in 2010! It was a prophetic assignment of terms.

Quote, RM Blevins: ""...the term 'Cooper Royalty,'...I use the term to refer to a select group of people who think they are better, or smarter than others when it comes to investigating the case....".

Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 13, 2015, 04:03:30 AM
Thank you Georger, for clarifying this Royalty business.

May I post this at the DZ? Or Shut? Perhaps you should do the honors, as kind of an emissary from the royal court.

As for myself, I am proud to be a member of the Cooper Royalty. I think the term suits us well.

It also seems to drive Bobby crazy, which is always fun.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: MarkBennett on March 13, 2015, 09:55:21 AM
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This term "Hate Mongers" is an exclusive term invented and used only by RobertMBlevins!


I had heard the term "hate monger" before -- mostly in Washington DC political posturing.  It's even in dictionary.com

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hate%20monger?s=t
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on March 13, 2015, 01:31:15 PM
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Thank you Georger, for clarifying this Royalty business.

May I post this at the DZ? Or Shut? Perhaps you should do the honors, as kind of an emissary from the royal court.

As for myself, I am proud to be a member of the Cooper Royalty. I think the term suits us well.

It also seems to drive Bobby crazy, which is always fun.

sure - do what you want - B will deny it of course. I spent over an hour running searches using a number of search words in various forms. When it came down to it, it was pretty simple. 377 (referencing the symposium in 2011), then Meyer Louie in reference to RMB claims in 2012, then RMB in response to Meyer, and now it has become a mantra 377 never intended.

I wish we could solve the Cooper case as easily!  ;)

Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on March 13, 2015, 02:25:20 PM
Mr. Blevins seems to speak for the Christian family as if he is a member. how would he have any rights to say what is being written about Christiansen? I understand he has rights to Lyle's story, but where does he fall into making legal decisions on things not related to what he wrote?

It has been written in the past that Kenny had young kids at his home, and bought them gifts. this wouldn't fly today! If Mr. Blevins had the same information, and was against Kenny, he wouldn't shut up about the quote from Gray's book! every other
post would have the quote in it.

He has yet to prove his story is truthful let alone something else being said about Kenny.....
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Olemisscub on March 13, 2015, 06:13:10 PM
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Mr. Blevins seems to speak for the Christian family as if he is a member. how would he have any rights to say what is being written about Christiansen? I understand he has rights to Lyle's story, but where does he fall into making legal decisions on things not related to what he wrote?

The dead have no cause of action for defamation nor do their survivors unless the allegedly harmful words independently defame the survivors themselves.

#PaidAttentionInLawSchool
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Olemisscub on March 13, 2015, 06:19:29 PM
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It has been written in the past that Kenny had young kids at his home, and bought them gifts. this wouldn't fly today!

It would certainly appear to be suspicious these days and it was probably suspicious back then as well given that people were aware of it enough to remember it happening. Whether or not he had an inappropriate relationship with the boys is something it's probably not fair to speculate on since there really isn't enough evidence. However, I don't think it's base speculation to suggest that KC was gay. Of course, his sexuality is completely irrelevant to the crime unless his "grudge" had to do with homophobia or something.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on March 13, 2015, 06:43:24 PM
I agree that it has no bearing on the case, but it is basic knowledge Kenny was gay, and did have relations with younger kids. I believe this was told by someone who stayed with him when he was younger. it does sort of give a profile into his past though?

The real question would be, what legal ability would he have speaking for the Christian family. he has rights to what is said in his book, but can he dictate what others say about Christiansen, I don't see where he has any grounds?

Added: I just seen your post above about the dead....I missed it at first...
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on March 14, 2015, 12:34:18 AM
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Mr. Blevins seems to speak for the Christian family as if he is a member. how would he have any rights to say what is being written about Christiansen? I understand he has rights to Lyle's story, but where does he fall into making legal decisions on things not related to what he wrote?

It has been written in the past that Kenny had young kids at his home, and bought them gifts. this wouldn't fly today! If Mr. Blevins had the same information, and was against Kenny, he wouldn't shut up about the quote from Gray's book! every other
post would have the quote in it.

He has yet to prove his story is truthful let alone something else being said about Kenny.....

I have reached the point (like Gray) where Kenny's personal affairs dont even matter next to the deeper issue: has RMB proved KC was Cooper or even come close to proving that? I dont think RMB has presented any more proof that KC was or even could have been Cooper, than RMB has presented proof that elephants are in the same genus as five-toed winged purple snails! That is the only issue at stake!

Where is the family dna Blevins supposedly has produced for Kenny? Let me guess: hate mongers, cooper royalty, slapped down red hair step children, wage earner sheeple, and other Untrustworthy people in Cooperland - only Trusted Friends of Adventire Books like Danielle10-10 get to see it?

And "Cooper Royalty can kiss my ass!"  :-*



 
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on March 14, 2015, 02:02:53 PM
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Thank you Georger, for clarifying this Royalty business.

May I post this at the DZ? Or Shut? Perhaps you should do the honors, as kind of an emissary from the royal court.

As for myself, I am proud to be a member of the Cooper Royalty. I think the term suits us well.

It also seems to drive Bobby crazy, which is always fun.

Well that backfired bigtime, as I predicted it would... leading to the 50,000th recitation of the 'History of the World' by Narcissist-I and Narcissist-II who have always substituted soap opera for facts.

So let me ask! What would the real DB Cooper think if he could look back and read Dropzone!?

That really is all I have to say about this craziness -  :)

 

 
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 14, 2015, 04:46:00 PM
G: And "Cooper Royalty can kiss my ass!"

PB: Just tell me where and when!
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Olemisscub on March 15, 2015, 10:01:33 PM
Question for you guys that live up in that area. Do people ever attempt to walk the woods in that vicinity or metal detect? I assume that most of the land is private land, so a person would need permission. Just wondering if people ever do that?

I grew up on a Civil War battlefield (Battle of Champion Hill) and so I was raised relic hunting and spending hours and hours slowly walking through the woods waiting for that awesome beeping sound. In my life I probably filled up a dozen mason jars with minee balls, but I've also found jacket buttons, spoons, cartridge boxes, US cavalry horseshoes, canteen pieces, belt buckles, artillery fragments, and even a whole cannonball!

So anyways, just wondering if people relic hunt the area along the flight path? I know it'd be a one in a million chance to find anything since the area is so vast, but if we assume he is dead there should be the remnants of the chute, the rig and harness, his belt buckle, any coins he had in his pockets, a cigarette lighter, the briefcase, and maybe even his sunglasses.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on March 15, 2015, 10:19:35 PM
Jerry Thomas has been searching the woods for years. I'm sure he has used a metal detector. I wonder how many have done that while not looking for Cooper?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on March 15, 2015, 10:42:24 PM
From Sluggo's site about Jerry: copy/paste

Jerry Thomas, a Vietnam vet, Army survival trainer and drill sergeant, has been looking for D.B. Cooper since 1989. He's spent hundreds of days in the Washougal and Lewis watersheds, sometimes going months at a time searching for clues under the tall trees.
Jerry has his opinions about Cooper’s fate. He believes Cooper's chute never opened. That D.B. hit the ground hard.
Thomas is optimistic that his methodical search will one day yield results.
He says he's hopeful he can answer the Cooper riddle for his friend, Himmelsbach, the former FBI investigator, and for all the others who have wondered, and worked, on finding the man.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Olemisscub on March 15, 2015, 11:29:57 PM
Well good for him! Glad someone is doing it!

Also, is it the consensus that he probably chucked the briefcase out the back of the plane? It would seem like an unreasonable burden to tie a money bag and a briefcase to yourself.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on March 15, 2015, 11:38:49 PM
I don't know when he was last out looking. he's had some health issues.

My guess would also be to lose the briefcase. I wonder what happened to it after it hit the ground. I'm sure it probably broke open dumping it's contents?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on March 16, 2015, 12:26:01 AM
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Question for you guys that live up in that area. Do people ever attempt to walk the woods in that vicinity or metal detect? I assume that most of the land is private land, so a person would need permission. Just wondering if people ever do that?

I grew up on a Civil War battlefield (Battle of Champion Hill) and so I was raised relic hunting and spending hours and hours slowly walking through the woods waiting for that awesome beeping sound. In my life I probably filled up a dozen mason jars with minee balls, but I've also found jacket buttons, spoons, cartridge boxes, US cavalry horseshoes, canteen pieces, belt buckles, artillery fragments, and even a whole cannonball!

So anyways, just wondering if people relic hunt the area along the flight path? I know it'd be a one in a million chance to find anything since the area is so vast, but if we assume he is dead there should be the remnants of the chute, the rig and harness, his belt buckle, any coins he had in his pockets, a cigarette lighter, the briefcase, and maybe even his sunglasses.

Cooper had about 2 to 3 pounds of metal with him that would react with a magnet or metal detector.  This is primarily the hardware on the backpack parachute but includes, as you mentioned, a belt buckle, coins, possibly a cigarette lighter, and definitely a pocket knife.  He had to have the pocket knife since there was nothing on the airliner for him to cut the shroud lines with.

All of the above metal would be in an area not to exceed 2 feet wide and 3 feet long.

If you wish to go to Tina Bar and do some work with a metal detector, I'll be happy to loan you my Garrett machine.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 16, 2015, 04:38:27 AM
A couple of thoughts about PNW folks walking in the woods:

1. Jerry T.

JT says he has walked in the woods a lot, but nobody I know has ever seen him go.  Back in 2008 and 2009 I asked to tag along with him the next time he planned on tramping, volunteered to even camp out, and he said I was always welcome to come along.  But he always backed out of tentative dates to go.  We never did get together for the Washougal experience.

Then, I asked Jerry for some specifics of where he has already gone in the Washougal so that I would not repeat romping in the same places he had already gone when I actually got my ass into gear. Again, he said sure, and then never delivered any maps, nor any specific landmarks, sites, identifying markers - nuttin'.

Does anybody know anything about the Washougal search?  Where the cave is that JT found the old satchel that got Himms all excited and seems to be the launching of their relationship?

Last thing about JT. When he came to the 2011 Symposium he brought along a HUGE scrapbook filled with Cooper memorabilia from the get-go in '71. It had tons of newspaper clipping, but I didn't see one shred detailing his work. I find that odd. Doesn't he record where he has gone? What he has found?  Why not? I know that spelling and grammar are not his strong suits, but still...

2. As for general strolling in the woods, the most comprehensive stuff I know of, are hunters - elk and deer.  That's how the placard was found near Silver Lake. We have lots of wanderers, too - lost souls and homeless guys, but they don't wander too deep into the boonies unless they are making a permanent camp in a hard-core kind of way.

LZ-A is not that primal. Lots of folks around, so I would think that most acreage has been accessed. That said, it is lonely out there, and bad guys know they can dump bodies at just about every forest road dead-end. The feds found two when they went looking for Coop, back in '72.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on March 16, 2015, 05:38:42 AM
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A couple of thoughts about PNW folks walking in the woods:

1. Jerry T.

JT says he has walked in the woods a lot, but nobody I know has ever seen him go.  Back in 2008 and 2009 I asked to tag along with him the next time he planned on tramping, volunteered to even camp out, and he said I was always welcome to come along.  But he always backed out of tentative dates to go.  We never did get together for the Washougal experience.

Then, I asked Jerry for some specifics of where he has already gone in the Washougal so that I would not repeat romping in the same places he had already gone when I actually got my ass into gear. Again, he said sure, and then never delivered any maps, nor any specific landmarks, sites, identifying markers - nuttin'.

Does anybody know anything about the Washougal search?  Where the cave is that JT found the old satchel that got Himms all excited and seems to be the launching of their relationship?

Last thing about JT. When he came to the 2011 Symposium he brought along a HUGE scrapbook filled with Cooper memorabilia from the get-go in '71. It had tons of newspaper clipping, but I didn't see one shred detailing his work. I find that odd. Doesn't he record where he has gone? What he has found?  Why not? I know that spelling and grammar are not his strong suits, but still...

2. As for general strolling in the woods, the most comprehensive stuff I know of, are hunters - elk and deer.  That's how the placard was found near Silver Lake. We have lots of wanderers, too - lost souls and homeless guys, but they don't wander too deep into the boonies unless they are making a permanent camp in a hard-core kind of way.

LZ-A is not that primal. Lots of folks around, so I would think that most acreage has been accessed. That said, it is lonely out there, and bad guys know they can dump bodies at just about every forest road dead-end. The feds found two when they went looking for Coop, back in '72.

JT's supposed last area of search was the area around and north of Dougan Falls, he said.

I posted this several weeks ago, you must have missed it.

One report claims JT did not make all the searches he claims. I dunno - I wasnt there.

However, a number of people have searched in the Washougal area over the years. Do a search for newspapers articles about others conducting searches in the Washougal ...

You do realise JT also claims flight 305 crossed over at the Troutdale Airport! JT has always been firm on that point he says comes straight from Himmelsbach. Hush-hush. Don;t tell anyone!

 :) 
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 16, 2015, 04:52:55 PM
Yup, I remember JT's fierce defense of the Troutdale fly-over.

Thanks for the Dougan Falls tip. Musta missed it.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on March 17, 2015, 02:35:44 PM
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Yup, I remember JT's fierce defense of the Troutdale fly-over.

Thanks for the Dougan Falls tip. Musta missed it.

FBI offices sometimes miss things too but they get blamed for it! (by book writers)
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 17, 2015, 04:11:08 PM
You got a problem with that?

smile...
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on March 18, 2015, 12:13:59 AM
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You got a problem with that?

smile...

If this is for me, I have a problem with unproven conspiracy theories in general. A conspiracy is one species. System error is another species. Unproven conspiracy theories seldom enlighten us about the real issues at hand. And how do a bunch of people in diverse places who don't even know each other, have never even communicated with each other ... all over a forty years period ... participate knowingly in a conspiracy? Are you claiming they are all connected in the Fourth Dimension on a mountain top on Planet Acres?

If you are going to claim a conspiracy don't you have to prove one?

If I claim that snowballs from Hades made the oceans on Earth, don't I have to provide some hard evidence in order for it to appear in the textbooks the next year?

I dunno. I only work here. I'm slow and watch Letterman while reading the Cooper sites.     
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 18, 2015, 01:12:30 AM
Relax, G.

I was teasing you about your comments on how some reporters blame the FBI when they screw up.

I know you didn't mention ANY names, BUT were you thinking of me when you posted that comment????
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on March 18, 2015, 01:51:59 AM
A crazy thing has happen at DZ tonight, in addition to all of the turmoil going on over there. Mr. Blevins has dredged up old "working notes" of mine published years ago, and has actually posted a link to them, ... in a totally pointless response to Smokin99! Why or of what value my old talking point notes have as a reply to Smokin99, God only knows! I guess Blevins is trying to divert attention away from himself, to me? This is crazy on it's face and totally irrelevant to the Smokin-Blevins debate which has been occurring at DZ lately.

These are old talking point notes which I had posted for someone years ago, in 2008, in a private Yahoo group. The notes merely outline issues and questions various people had brought up, which some of us at the time thought needed examination and clarification. None of these talking points were posted as "facts about anything", but as "issues" which needed clarification. These notes were then re-posted into a newsgroup where a person had set up a Cooper discussion group. As I recall this, I don't think that newsgroup even survived. But nothing in my notes was meant as a statement of fact about anything - each issue brought forward was simply an issue to be discussed, examined, and nothing more...   

None of this has any relevance to the world today!

None of this has any relevance whatever to the Smokin99-Blevins debate currently going on at Dropzone.

My sympathies to Smokin99 in her impossible task with the obsessive-compulsive Blevins at Dropzone!     




 
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: EVickiW on March 18, 2015, 10:20:08 AM
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A crazy thing has happen at DZ tonight, ........

My sympathies to Smokin99 in her impossible task with the obsessive-compulsive Blevins at Dropzone!   

But from what I understand, she may have had some wine while posting....so WIN WIN for smokin99.

The last five years at the DZ is a combination of impossible tasks. The entire "shill" comment was a direct result of Farflung noticing that his co-editors (Nelder, etc) were leaving reviews on Blast. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4129292;search_string=shill%20blast%20nelder;#4129292. Now Blevins is an expert on shill reviews, but does not explain he was dinged for it a few years ago. He just does not get it. Not now...not then...not tomorrow. Why does anyone even try? I stopped replying and posting on the DZ as a direct result of Jo and Blevins. He believes that KC is the guy and nothing, including lack of evidence, will stand in his way. It is enough to pull your hair out.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on March 18, 2015, 02:21:18 PM
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A crazy thing has happen at DZ tonight, ........

My sympathies to Smokin99 in her impossible task with the obsessive-compulsive Blevins at Dropzone!   

But from what I understand, she may have had some wine while posting....so WIN WIN for smokin99.

The last five years at the DZ is a combination of impossible tasks. The entire "shill" comment was a direct result of Farflung noticing that his co-editors (Nelder, etc) were leaving reviews on Blast. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4129292;search_string=shill%20blast%20nelder;#4129292. Now Blevins is an expert on shill reviews, but does not explain he was dinged for it a few years ago. He just does not get it. Not now...not then...not tomorrow. Why does anyone even try? I stopped replying and posting on the DZ as a direct result of Jo and Blevins. He believes that KC is the guy and nothing, including lack of evidence, will stand in his way. It is enough to pull your hair out.

The situation with 'that guy' and the other 'drone' on DZ is nothing less than a rein of terror being conducted on Dropzone by two people.

And 'that guy' called Smokin99 a "drone" ?  :D

Something is broken in the management of that place.





Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 18, 2015, 02:37:45 PM
May I suggest more wine. Anyone want a re-fill?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on March 18, 2015, 05:41:13 PM
Did someone say refill?

(http://www.picgifs.com/food-and-drinks/food-and-drinks/wine/food-and-drinks-wine-633349.gif)


Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 19, 2015, 02:26:04 AM
I hereby nominate Smokin99 for sainthood for her SUSTAINED interventions with He-Who-Can-Not Be-Mentioned, but is affectionately known as Bobby B.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: smokin99 on March 19, 2015, 11:20:11 PM
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I hereby nominate Smokin99 for sainthood for her SUSTAINED interventions with He-Who-Can-Not Be-Mentioned, but is affectionately known as Bobby B.

Bless his heart.
I think I'm about done. It was fun but then I find myself wondering what in the hell am I doing trying to be logical with this person or even try to hold him to a standard of fact. Futile. Internet asininity.
I had a co-worker once. I always swore that when God made him, he started with Barney Fife, but then took away Barney's humility, awkward naivety, and humor and, then, on top of that, gave him a double dose of know-it-all, hubris, and ignorance  - yep - that would be my co-worker. The weird thing is he was actually a nice guy that would give you the shirt off his back but dang he could get on your last nerve. I guess that's what the internet takes away - when you don't have a personal interaction you really have no "nice guy" part to take the edge off the arrogance and other crap. Oh well - I'm gonna try to rise above it and just challenge the data. Wish me luck  :D ;D
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on March 19, 2015, 11:28:30 PM
He reminds me a lot of Piers Morgan.......
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: MarkBennett on March 20, 2015, 12:45:00 AM
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He reminds me a lot of Piers Morgan.......

He reminds me of what happens when I write to one of my elected officials.  They look for key words and then send out some canned response.  They don't even read the content.

Smokin, I have to say you write very well.  Clear, concise and always straight to the point.  I admire your tenacity.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 20, 2015, 02:03:35 AM
Saint Smok.

I'm just trying it out to see how it looks...
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 20, 2015, 03:28:44 AM
Hey, Ole Miss C, I hear that you've got a man hanging from a tree in Port Gibson. Your case?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: smokin99 on March 21, 2015, 02:26:31 AM
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He reminds me a lot of Piers Morgan.......

He reminds me of what happens when I write to one of my elected officials.  They look for key words and then send out some canned response.  They don't even read the content.

Smokin, I have to say you write very well.  Clear, concise and always straight to the point.  I admire your tenacity.

lol...you spoke too soon. I can't hang. I am just being honest when I say I could not even read his last post.....so I guess that makes him....

the winner. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXH_FZkjTeI)

It is kind of frustrating that he is able  to spout off any nonsense and no one to call him on it...... as we all slowly leave the room....but, on the other hand, it's kind of nice over here. :)   
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: smokin99 on March 21, 2015, 02:48:21 AM
So...I got my FOIA response back from the FBI today. Nice form letter that basically said that they had released everything that they were going to in response to an earlier FOIA and I could find it in the FBI vault. I proceeded to say a bad word to my dog. Of course, I knew that it would go no where. I'm working on my appeal -- If that doesn't work, I guess I'm gonna have to find me a lawyer and sue for equal access under the law. :)  :D 8)

I got a phone call from the FAA about the one I filed with them -- in effect she told me the same thing but I told her I wanted it processed anyway.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on March 21, 2015, 03:04:58 AM
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So...I got my FOIA response back from the FBI today. Nice form letter that basically said that they had released everything that they were going to in response to an earlier FOIA and I could find it in the FBI vault. I proceeded to say a bad word to my dog. Of course, I knew that it would go no where. I'm working on my appeal -- If that doesn't work, I guess I'm gonna have to find me a lawyer and sue for equal access under the law. :)  :D 8)

I got a phone call from the FAA about the one I filed with them -- in effect she told me the same thing but I told her I wanted it processed anyway.

I would be very interested in knowing your thinking about the money find ... if you want to say. Either here on in the money thread?  It's your call.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on March 21, 2015, 08:38:32 PM
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So...I got my FOIA response back from the FBI today. Nice form letter that basically said that they had released everything that they were going to in response to an earlier FOIA and I could find it in the FBI vault. I proceeded to say a bad word to my dog. Of course, I knew that it would go no where. I'm working on my appeal -- If that doesn't work, I guess I'm gonna have to find me a lawyer and sue for equal access under the law. :)  :D 8)

I got a phone call from the FAA about the one I filed with them -- in effect she told me the same thing but I told her I wanted it processed anyway.


Sometimes you wonder why they call it the FOIA? some get replies with a couple words on them, and the rest is redacted.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Olemisscub on March 21, 2015, 11:17:05 PM
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Hey, Ole Miss C, I hear that you've got a man hanging from a tree in Port Gibson. Your case?

Thankfully not and thankfully for the sake of the state it looks to be a suicide and not anything more nefarious.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on March 23, 2015, 05:46:34 PM
copy and pasted:  :o 8)

Reichenbach

Mar 23, 2015, 1:06 PM
Post #57940 of 57941 (22 views)
Re: [377] Opinions maketh the Cooperland [In reply to]    Can't Post

I feel like I have to throw some things out there for discussion.

1 - I can't count the amount of times Larry Carr has said "go by the description and not the sketches." Plus a couple of pages back there Carr is accused of throwing a hoax out there. Did I read that right? Wouldn't he be under a huge amount of DZ scrutiny?

2 - *sigh* Geoffrey Gray did not write an in depth criminal investigation into DB Cooper, he wrote a book (a form of entertainment, granted well researched entertainment) on DB Cooper.

3 - When Earl Cossey said he delivered the chutes, I'm sure he didn't mean he delivered the chutes to Sea-Tac. What exactly is the basis for Cossey being called a liar?

4 - If the Amboy chute had markings, a phone call to Cossey (the FBI, chute expert) would be sufficient to determine if it was Cooper's supplied chutes.

5 - Brown contacts? This thing will never get solved. Instead of increasing the options, why can't we decrease the options?

I feel the heat about to be turned way up here, but (here goes) the DZ needs a little more non-American-paranoid-centric "the FBI, the government, are screwing us over, don't trust anything, conspiracy" in it.


A great post! - Georger
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 23, 2015, 06:02:42 PM
Sigh.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on March 24, 2015, 12:25:05 AM
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Sigh.

Why?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Olemisscub on March 24, 2015, 02:05:59 AM
Do people really believe there is some massive coverup with the government actively running interference over a 40 year old skyjacking?

It's sad really. Pathetic actually.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 24, 2015, 02:21:46 AM
"Sigh" means I get exasperated by Rikes' effort to sanitize Cossey. I challenged him on his comments and he has yet to answer me.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 24, 2015, 02:24:08 AM
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Do people really believe there is some massive coverup with the government actively running interference over a 40 year old skyjacking?

It's sad really. Pathetic actually.

So, OMC, why did the cigarette butts go missing? Just a "Shit Happens" moment in the world's largest LE agency?

Let's turn the conspiracy thing around - if not a conspiracy-influenced investigation, what does the Norjak case tell you about the FBI?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 24, 2015, 02:32:48 AM
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Do people really believe there is some massive coverup with the government actively running interference over a 40 year old skyjacking?

It's sad really. Pathetic actually.

Let's say a conspiracy-at-work in Norjak is pathetic, OMC.

So, what does a conspiracy actually look like?

Have you ever seen one? Have you ever had to tangle with one? Have you ever been a target of a conspiracy?

Even at the itsy-bitsy local level? Your cops never planted evidence, coerced witnesses, or lied on the witness stand? Did you ever have to clean up a mess at a Sheriff's office? Or hold your nose?

Retired FBI agent Steve Moore has made a famous comment in the Amanda Knox case:  "The FBI has a saying, 'We can convict anyone; the innocent just take a little longer.'" Any comment?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 24, 2015, 02:38:00 AM
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Do people really believe there is some massive coverup with the government actively running interference over a 40 year old skyjacking?

It's sad really. Pathetic actually.

So, OMC, how do you read the behavior of the FBI in the Marla Cooper case? Do you concur that Uncle LD is the "most promising" suspect in Norjak?

If so, any thoughts on why the Bureau dropped Uncle LD and walked away from Marla? If they failed to collect sufficient evidence, don't you think they should have made that determination BEFORE they made such as dramatic announcement?

Or did they just get a little over-excited?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 24, 2015, 02:46:27 AM
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Do people really believe there is some massive coverup with the government actively running interference over a 40 year old skyjacking?

It's sad really. Pathetic actually.

How would you assess Earl Cossey's role in the DB Cooper case, OMC?

1. An asshole with a big mouth?
2. A guy who just got himself quoted out of context by a bunch of pin-headed reporters?
3. A guy who got caught up in the moment, the bright lights, and FBI agents asking him for his opinions and he started stretching the truth a little?
4. A guy who told one little white lie, which led to another white lie, then to another and another, and after 40 years he told some whoppers?
5. All that skydiving made him nutsy, and why anyone believed him is beyond comprehension!
6. Cossey who? Oh, you mean the rigger? What's he got to do with anything?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on March 24, 2015, 01:12:55 PM
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Do people really believe there is some massive coverup with the government actively running interference over a 40 year old skyjacking?

It's sad really. Pathetic actually.

So, OMC, why did the cigarette butts go missing? Just a "Shit Happens" moment in the world's largest LE agency?

Let's turn the conspiracy thing around - if not a conspiracy-influenced investigation, what does the Norjak case tell you about the FBI?

Nobody including Carr says they are lost! Lost where?

But more to the point, you don't know, so why say [this or that or another thing]! Why not just say the butts were traded for a bottle of wine, or better yet do a 'Blevins' and claim the butts were lost at Paradise Park after the FBI gave them to Kenny BEFORE THE HIJACK EVEN HAPPENED! Duhhhhhhhh. That would be a hate-based allegory for the mind readers and snake handlers in your audience?  ;)

Why not say: "we dn't know'.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: MarkBennett on March 24, 2015, 03:04:27 PM
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Do people really believe there is some massive coverup with the government actively running interference over a 40 year old skyjacking?

It's sad really. Pathetic actually.



So, OMC, why did the cigarette butts go missing? Just a "Shit Happens" moment in the world's largest LE agency?

Let's turn the conspiracy thing around - if not a conspiracy-influenced investigation, what does the Norjak case tell you about the FBI?

Nobody including Carr says they are lost! Lost where?

But more to the point, you don't know, so why say [this or that or another thing]! Why not just say the butts were traded for a bottle of wine, or better yet do a 'Blevins' and claim the butts were lost at Paradise Park after the FBI gave them to Kenny BEFORE THE HIJACK EVEN HAPPENED! Duhhhhhhhh. That would be a hate-based allegory for the mind readers and snake handlers in your audience?  ;)

Why not say: "we dn't know'.

Thanks, Georger.

Some many stories get twisted and people just accept them.  I read in Gray's book that the cigarette butts were lost, so I had to check DZ.  As usual, you are right.  Here is Carr's comment:

Quote
The cigarette butts were never in the Seattle office, they were recovered by the Las Vegas office and sent to Quantico for analysis. After processing they were returned to Las Vegas for storage. So the butts told their story back at the lab, they gave all they could give and could give no more. It's not like they were lost and never processed.

They may still be in Las Vegas for all I know, I can't find the paper work that state the items were disposed of, nor can I find the butts. Alas, another mystery to the mysteries.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on March 24, 2015, 03:54:06 PM
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Do people really believe there is some massive coverup with the government actively running interference over a 40 year old skyjacking?

It's sad really. Pathetic actually.



So, OMC, why did the cigarette butts go missing? Just a "Shit Happens" moment in the world's largest LE agency?

Let's turn the conspiracy thing around - if not a conspiracy-influenced investigation, what does the Norjak case tell you about the FBI?

Nobody including Carr says they are lost! Lost where?

But more to the point, you don't know, so why say [this or that or another thing]! Why not just say the butts were traded for a bottle of wine, or better yet do a 'Blevins' and claim the butts were lost at Paradise Park after the FBI gave them to Kenny BEFORE THE HIJACK EVEN HAPPENED! Duhhhhhhhh. That would be a hate-based allegory for the mind readers and snake handlers in your audience?  ;)

Why not say: "we dn't know'.

Thanks, Georger.

Some many stories get twisted and people just accept them.  I read in Gray's book that the cigarette butts were lost, so I had to check DZ.  As usual, you are right.  Here is Carr's comment:

Quote
The cigarette butts were never in the Seattle office, they were recovered by the Las Vegas office and sent to Quantico for analysis. After processing they were returned to Las Vegas for storage. So the butts told their story back at the lab, they gave all they could give and could give no more. It's not like they were lost and never processed.

They may still be in Las Vegas for all I know, I can't find the paper work that state the items were disposed of, nor can I find the butts. Alas, another mystery to the mysteries.

The only caveat is, a later dna analysis would be better than the old one - if the butts can be located if they still exist.

Only an FBI search of the paper work can resolve this. The butts were transferred to Quantico for analysis. Quantico could have transferred them back to Las Vegas or to Washington. Las Vegas could have transferred them to Washington or still have them.  If they were ever disposed of there would be paper work on that, but one has to question evidence in a major case being disposed of. It is a tangled web.
   
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: nmiwrecks on March 31, 2015, 12:55:52 PM
I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this, but... Dropzone is gone...forever! 

"sangiro" just shut it down permanently, sighting the bickering of 3 or 4 individuals as the reason for it's demise.  It looks like "thedbcooperforum" is now the only game in town.   
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on March 31, 2015, 01:08:18 PM
FLASH - BULLETIN:

SANGIRO HAS LOCKED THE DROPZONE COOPER THREAD!!!!!!!!!!

THIS HAPPENED JUST A FEW MINUTES AGO.

SOMETHING HAS FINALLY GONE RIGHT THERE!
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: nmiwrecks on March 31, 2015, 01:20:13 PM
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FLASH - BULLETIN:

SANGIRO HAS LOCKED THE DROPZONE COOPER THREAD!!!!!!!!!!

THIS HAPPENED JUST A FEW MINUTES AGO.

SOMETHING HAS FINALLY GONE RIGHT THERE!

Wow, that's a stunning move.  A couple of poisonous personalities ran that place into the ground.  Dropzone did keep a couple of those wackos busy, and I hope they don't show up over here.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 31, 2015, 02:50:10 PM
That's news! I was very surprised to see the DZ shut down. Thank Gawd we have this forum.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on March 31, 2015, 04:36:14 PM
WOW, I never really thought it would happen. so, "Numero Uno" bit the dust  :'(

All the information is safe for the time being. where will Bobby push his books now? I feel sorry for Jo, but it is what it is....
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on March 31, 2015, 04:51:26 PM
Quote
I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this, but... Dropzone is gone...forever! 

Any place would of been ok, it's kind of big news in a bad way, but who didn't see it coming. personally, it should have been locked a couple years ago. they made zero attempts to control that thread. they allowed it to happen IMHO. I think the last warning to anyone was almost a year ago! I believe it was Robert B. to boot!!

I believe a moment of silence is in order  :(

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-Xrlf3taEo
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on March 31, 2015, 06:04:30 PM
Well, here it is! The final notice to all at Dropzone! The thread is closed.

sangiro
Head Honcho
Mar 31, 2015, 9:41 AM
Post #58139 of 58139 (86 views)
   
Re: [RobertMBlevins] Another Gem by Bruce Smith, Rex Magistrum [In reply to]    

Folks - this thread has run its course on Dropzone.com. It has long turned into a bickering platform for 3 or 4 individuals. While we've tolerated this for a long time it has simply reached the point of diminishing returns. The number of PM complaints we have to deal with from the few members involved in this discussion about the conduct of the others is completely disproportional to the value we get from hosting this.

Please feel free to set up a discussion on one of the many free forums out there like:

https://groups.google.com/

Once done you're welcome to send me a URL and I'll make one final post to this thread to point others to the new discussion.

No, PMing me will not get me to reopen this thread.


 :) :)
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: smokin99 on March 31, 2015, 08:22:28 PM
I felt like it was coming- - I just hope they leave the locked threads up like they did the original one after locking it - because there are a couple of pages with some worthwhile info. :)

I don't have plans to join another google group -- even to keep folks honest -- I feel like it will just be more of the same -- so Shutter you will just have to keep this one open. :)


Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on March 31, 2015, 08:31:31 PM
Well crap....I did it again. I posted on your post....sorry  :'(


Yep, I think we will stay in business a while longer  ;D I don't think they are worried about bandwidth, so the thread will probably remain. it's a shame it had to come to an end, but we all seen it coming. I'm getting a flashback of Charlie Sheen at the end of Platoon. his closing speech ;D ;D
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Parrotheadvol on March 31, 2015, 08:48:43 PM
So, the Cooper thread has died....and the Kenny Christiansen myth has died with it. That's the only place it still had any life. Finally, Kenny can rest in peace.

I'd say RB and Jo are the only ones who join the Google group.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on March 31, 2015, 08:58:47 PM
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So, the Cooper thread has died....and the Kenny Christiansen myth has died with it. That's the only place it still had any life. Finally, Kenny can rest in peace.

I'd say RB and Jo are the only ones who join the Google group.


I'm sure Robert will reach as far as he can to try and get something going. he tried once on his website. it had a couple comments, and died. even as nasty as Jo can be sometimes, I do feel sorry that she has no place to go. Jo just needs a place to carry on, perhaps a Google group will fit her needs. her attack on Vicki blew anything happening here...sadly. 
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 31, 2015, 09:50:27 PM
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Quote
I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this, but... Dropzone is gone...forever! 

Any place would of been ok, it's kind of big news in a bad way, but who didn't see it coming. personally, it should have been locked a couple years ago. they made zero attempts to control that thread. they allowed it to happen IMHO. I think the last warning to anyone was almost a year ago! I believe it was Robert B. to boot!!

I believe a moment of silence is in order  :(

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-Xrlf3taEo

Thank You. A fitting tribute to a grand old lady of forums.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: MarkBennett on March 31, 2015, 10:05:40 PM
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So, the Cooper thread has died....and the Kenny Christiansen myth has died with it. That's the only place it still had any life. Finally, Kenny can rest in peace.

I'd say RB and Jo are the only ones who join the Google group.

I'm sure Robert will reach as far as he can to try and get something going. he tried once on his website. it had a couple comments, and died. even as nasty as Jo can be sometimes, I do feel sorry that she has no place to go. Jo just needs a place to carry on, perhaps a Google group will fit her needs. her attack on Vicki blew anything happening here...sadly.


Yes...Robert has started the DB Cooper group on Google.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/dbcooper
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on March 31, 2015, 10:10:09 PM
That didn't take long, did it :o

To top it off, he's not being honest about why the thread was locked. it wasn't because of "tens of thousands of postings"....
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on April 01, 2015, 12:30:04 AM
It just seemed like ten-thousand postings.....
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on April 01, 2015, 12:38:45 AM
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That didn't take long, did it :o

To top it off, he's not being honest about why the thread was locked. it wasn't because of "tens of thousands of postings"....

I saw that and so will others. Liars are liars.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on April 01, 2015, 12:41:12 AM
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So, the Cooper thread has died....and the Kenny Christiansen myth has died with it. That's the only place it still had any life. Finally, Kenny can rest in peace.

I'd say RB and Jo are the only ones who join the Google group.


I'm sure Robert will reach as far as he can to try and get something going. he tried once on his website. it had a couple comments, and died. even as nasty as Jo can be sometimes, I do feel sorry that she has no place to go. Jo just needs a place to carry on, perhaps a Google group will fit her needs. her attack on Vicki blew anything happening here...sadly.

Dont worry about Jo Weber. She always lands somewhere. She just wont ever have the audience she had. All things must end.

Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on April 01, 2015, 01:32:15 AM
Not that I think Duane is a good Cooper candidate... but why didn't Jo ever go through the process of collecting all the evidence, such as it is, and collecting it into a book?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on April 01, 2015, 02:00:26 AM
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Not that I think Duane is a good Cooper candidate... but why didn't Jo ever go through the process of collecting all the evidence, such as it is, and collecting it into a book?

Because she never had any real evidence and everyone she tried to work with, or tried to work with her, ran  screaming to the hills to get away from her - that's why! She pushed everything and everyone too far. She had no actual evidence in the first place.

Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on April 01, 2015, 04:18:02 AM
Jo is Jo, meaning her interests lie far beyond solving the case, organizing her information, or writing a book. What her primary mission is unknown to me and anybody I know.

Part of her passion may be fueled by loneliness, but there is something else.  She dug into Duane and DB Cooper in a huge way even when her husband Jim asked her not to. In response, she had to sneak around the guy. Why did she do that?  To feel important?

Does she like playing mind games with everyone in Cooper World? Is it an addiction? A rush? Or is someone paying her to do it?  Where does she get all of her information? How did she know where Tina was before me and Galen? Why do so many Norjak principals pay her homage?

Jo is one of the mysteries of Norjak.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on April 01, 2015, 05:25:59 AM
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Jo is Jo, meaning her interests lie far beyond solving the case, organizing her information, or writing a book. What her primary mission is unknown to me and anybody I know.

Part of her passion may be fueled by loneliness, but there is something else.  She dug into Duane and DB Cooper in a huge way even when her husband Jim asked her not to. In response, she had to sneak around the guy. Why did she do that?  To feel important?

Does she like playing mind games with everyone in Cooper World? Is it an addiction? A rush? Or is someone paying her to do it?  Where does she get all of her information? How did she know where Tina was before me and Galen? Why do so many Norjak principals pay her homage?

Jo is one of the mysteries of Norjak.

IMO Jo Weber is no mystery. You are engaging in mythology. More than 80% of her socalled 'information' about the Cooper case has been shown to be flat wrong or distorted. She found Tina before you and Galen because she had been looking feverishly longer harder and finally got a lucky tip! Some who know her and people who knew Duane claim that she started the Duane myth in order to promote her Realty business. And the rest may be a compulsive-obsessive personality disorder fueled by deep seated inferiority needing approval and attention. More than half of everything she has ever said or done is about herself seeking approval and attention and sympathy and exaggerating all of her personal claims vs. anything having to do Duane or the Cooper case! Maybe you missed that part?
 :D 
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on April 01, 2015, 06:08:59 PM
Quote
More than half of everything she has ever said or done is about herself seeking approval and attention and sympathy and exaggerating all of her personal claims vs. anything having to do Duane or the Cooper case! Maybe you missed that part?

I've admitted, on several occasions, that I pretty much avoid the DZ Cooper thread altogether...  ;D
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: nmiwrecks on April 01, 2015, 11:27:54 PM
A recent article:
Article/the-link-between-d-b-cooper-and-andreas-lubitz.html (http://www.cafebabel.co.uk/article/the-link-between-d-b-cooper-and-andreas-lubitz.html)
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on April 01, 2015, 11:45:12 PM
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A recent article:
Article/the-link-between-d-b-cooper-and-andreas-lubitz.html (http://www.cafebabel.co.uk/article/the-link-between-d-b-cooper-and-andreas-lubitz.html)

Quite a stretch. Is there a link btwn Cooper and Napoleon, Julius Caesar, Mickey Mouse, and Martha Stewart?

Consider recipes in common! http://www.marthastewart.com/

  ;) :D
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on April 01, 2015, 11:51:22 PM
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A recent article:
Article/the-link-between-d-b-cooper-and-andreas-lubitz.html (http://www.cafebabel.co.uk/article/the-link-between-d-b-cooper-and-andreas-lubitz.html)

A pathological ego problem, or something along that line, is probably correct.  Six years after Martin Luther King, Jr., was assassinated, his mother was also shot and killed.  I happened to be living in the area that the murderer came from (Ohio) so the local media paid quite a bit of attention to the matter.  The murderer was caught on the spot (which I think was in the King's church) with a cat-eating grin on his face and about the first thing he said was, "Now everyone will know who I am".
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: nmiwrecks on April 05, 2015, 09:54:47 PM
Any "Mad Men" fans out there?  Word on the street is the show could end with Don Draper anonymously walking out of the back of a 727.  Let's not forget the "Mad Men" logo.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on April 05, 2015, 10:01:30 PM
I've never seen it, but it's all over the internet about Draper.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: MarkBennett on April 06, 2015, 12:05:37 AM
Interesting...tonight was the first episode of the final season.  There are six episodes after tonight.  They put little clues in the show to figure out the date of the show.  The last episode from last year ended right after the moon landing -- July 20, 1969.  In tonight's episode, it showed a Nixon speech where he announces he is pulling 150,000 troops out of Viet Nam.  I googled that and that speech was April 20, 1970.

That doesn't tell us the date when it will end -- but I would have expected the setting to be in 1971 if Don Draper was going to bail out as DB Cooper.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Parrotheadvol on April 06, 2015, 02:00:46 AM
That rumor has been out there for a couple of years I think. I've never seen the show. I never watched "Prison Break" either, but seems like I read that one of the inmates on that show was DB Cooper who was in prison for another crime.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on April 07, 2015, 09:19:52 PM
I was discussing with another poster earlier about how things get lost in the threads. actually he brought it up,  anyway I was thinking of starting a website to load up important facts about the case that we discuss here, but tend to get lost in the pages. I  believe I can put the site on this server. it's part of the plan I have.

It could be a permanent quick reference of things.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on April 07, 2015, 09:28:20 PM
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I was discussing with another poster earlier about how things get lost in the threads. actually he brought it up,  anyway I was thinking of starting a website to load up important facts about the case that we discuss here, but tend to get lost in the pages. I  believe I can put the site on this server. it's part of the plan I have.

It could be a permanent quick reference of things.

Thoughts?

That is a great idea!  And make sure that all discussing of things on that site is done here so they won't get buried in the commentary again.  Maybe I will have some things to consider for that site once I start writing again.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on April 07, 2015, 09:37:01 PM
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I was discussing with another poster earlier about how things get lost in the threads. actually he brought it up,  anyway I was thinking of starting a website to load up important facts about the case that we discuss here, but tend to get lost in the pages. I  believe I can put the site on this server. it's part of the plan I have.

It could be a permanent quick reference of things.

Thoughts?

That is a great idea!  And make sure that all discussing of things on that site is done here so they won't get buried in the commentary again.  Maybe I will have some things to consider for that site once I start writing again.


I'm glad it makes sense. we are getting big enough as it is (pages) when you have to search out things, it's time to consider options. everything can be categorized for quick reference. I believe it can be a sister page to this site. I'll have to check.

I think I will contact "Skhilled" for advanced help in this. he's pretty good on this stuff. light years ahead of me  :P
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on April 08, 2015, 10:30:15 PM
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I was discussing with another poster earlier about how things get lost in the threads. actually he brought it up,  anyway I was thinking of starting a website to load up important facts about the case that we discuss here, but tend to get lost in the pages. I  believe I can put the site on this server. it's part of the plan I have.

It could be a permanent quick reference of things.

Thoughts?

That is a great idea!  And make sure that all discussing of things on that site is done here so they won't get buried in the commentary again.  Maybe I will have some things to consider for that site once I start writing again.


Ok, we are a go for launching a website!!!

I could use some idea's on how to structure it. I looked over the site builder and understand how it works, but I need some input. I know I will have a page for Vicki, and NMI to place important information, but any idea's will help me in formatting a style...pages, categories etc....


NMI, did you build your site?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on April 08, 2015, 11:34:53 PM
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I was discussing with another poster earlier about how things get lost in the threads. actually he brought it up,  anyway I was thinking of starting a website to load up important facts about the case that we discuss here, but tend to get lost in the pages. I  believe I can put the site on this server. it's part of the plan I have.

It could be a permanent quick reference of things.

Thoughts?

That is a great idea!  And make sure that all discussing of things on that site is done here so they won't get buried in the commentary again.  Maybe I will have some things to consider for that site once I start writing again.


Ok, we are a go for launching a website!!!

I could use some idea's on how to structure it. I looked over the site builder and understand how it works, but I need some input. I know I will have a page for Vicki, and NMI to place important information, but any idea's will help me in formatting a style...pages, categories etc....


NMI, did you build your site?

sounds ok.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on April 08, 2015, 11:38:29 PM
I'm messing around with the site builder on different templates. I just picked this one out of a couple hundred for a test. this took about 20 minutes to make. this will disappear in 24 hours. it's only a temp file....


http://builder.infinitysrv.com/data/c/7/c768bd60.test.test/out/1/
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: nmiwrecks on April 09, 2015, 08:17:45 AM
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NMI, did you build your site?
Yes.  I use Moonfruit.com.  It's pretty easy to create and edit, once you get the hang of it.  Here are links to my site, and my friend's site:
http://www.michiganmysteries.com (http://www.michiganmysteries.com/)
http://www.chrisdoyal.com (http://www.chrisdoyal.com/)
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on April 09, 2015, 09:47:18 AM
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NMI, did you build your site?
Yes.  I use Moonfruit.com.  It's pretty easy to create and edit, once you get the hang of it.  Here are links to my site, and my friend's site:
http://www.michiganmysteries.com (http://www.michiganmysteries.com/)
http://www.chrisdoyal.com (http://www.chrisdoyal.com/)

Thanks for the info, but I figured out my site builder that comes with this server. I was hoping to get some pointers in advance. I don't have to worry now about possibly pointing the site, or new website to this server. it has all the tools needed built into my Cpanel.

I think the best thing to do is make it a sub domain?
Title: What Really Happened
Post by: josh54739 on May 02, 2015, 07:08:03 PM
I was reading two books based on D. B. Cooper: D. B. Cooper What Really Happened and D. B. Cooper The Real McCoy. I noticed that a lot of the information presented about the actual skyjacking contradicted wasn't present and a lot of the info I wanted wasn't even presented. I was wondering where I could find information on what really happened. All I could think of was the interviews with the plane crew and passengers, although to my knowledge these are not public. Any ideas?
Title: Re: What Really Happened
Post by: Shutter on May 02, 2015, 07:13:56 PM
Hi Josh, welcome to the forum. the best answer I have at the moment is, welcome to the club. this case can get confusing, but we have a lot of people here that can answer any questions you might have.

Also, I will be moving this thread to the general questions about Cooper area. I'm trying to keep the amount of threads down to a minimum.

Title: Re: What Really Happened
Post by: Shutter on May 02, 2015, 07:23:21 PM
We have a guy here by the name of Bruce Smith. he just wrote a book that might interest you. you can find it here on the "Book Discussion About DB Cooper" thread.
Title: Re: What Really Happened
Post by: georger on May 03, 2015, 01:05:58 AM
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I was reading two books based on D. B. Cooper: D. B. Cooper What Really Happened and D. B. Cooper The Real McCoy. I noticed that a lot of the information presented about the actual skyjacking contradicted wasn't present and a lot of the info I wanted wasn't even presented. I was wondering where I could find information on what really happened. All I could think of was the interviews with the plane crew and passengers, although to my knowledge these are not public. Any ideas?

What is the info you seek?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 03, 2015, 03:56:51 PM
My book has a complete interview with passenger Bill Mitchell. I also share lengthy tidbits of my 70-minute conversation with Bill Rataczak. I also chatted with passenger Almstad, and spoke with the family of Robert Gregory.

Plus, I detail at great length my efforts to speak with Tina Mucklow and Florence Shaffner.
Title: Re: What Really Happened
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 03, 2015, 04:04:07 PM
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I was reading two books based on D. B. Cooper: D. B. Cooper What Really Happened and D. B. Cooper The Real McCoy. I noticed that a lot of the information presented about the actual skyjacking contradicted wasn't present and a lot of the info I wanted wasn't even presented. I was wondering where I could find information on what really happened. All I could think of was the interviews with the plane crew and passengers, although to my knowledge these are not public. Any ideas?

Josh, both books you mention are written by cops, and you have just experienced one of the troubling dynamics of law enforcement, especially in the DB Cooper case. Basically, cops don't think their shit stinks, so what they write is the only stuff worth knowing about. Wait until you read Himmelsbach!

So, if you read their books with that perspective, and are willing to look elsewhere for a more comprehensive picture, then your abovementioned works are valuable, especially Calame and Rhodes, which I consider a remarkable addition to the Cooper literature. Nobody in LE is writing with such courage and delivering such searing information.

To wit: Rhodes writes that Cooper agents were under the influence of a post-hypnotic suggestion when he interviewed them!

So, that is why guys like me, a humble journalist, still has a job. We tend to tell a fuller story.
Title: Re: What Really Happened
Post by: Robert99 on May 03, 2015, 04:09:55 PM
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I was reading two books based on D. B. Cooper: D. B. Cooper What Really Happened and D. B. Cooper The Real McCoy. I noticed that a lot of the information presented about the actual skyjacking contradicted wasn't present and a lot of the info I wanted wasn't even presented. I was wondering where I could find information on what really happened. All I could think of was the interviews with the plane crew and passengers, although to my knowledge these are not public. Any ideas?

Josh, both books you mention are written by cops, and you have just experienced one of the troubling dynamics of law enforcement, especially in the DB Cooper case. Basically, cops don't think their shit stinks, so what they write is the only stuff worth knowing about. Wait until you read Himmelsbach!

So, if you read their books with that perspective, and are willing to look elsewhere for a more comprehensive picture, then your abovementioned works are valuable, especially Calame and Rhodes, which I consider a remarkable addition to the Cooper literature. Nobody in LE is writing with such courage and delivering such searing information.

To wit: Rhodes writes that Cooper agents were under the influence of a post-hypnotic suggestion when he interviewed them!

So, that is why guys like me, a humble journalist, still has a job. We tend to tell a fuller story.

How true!  I believe you are the only Cooper writer to even mention "remote viewing". :)
Title: Re: What Really Happened
Post by: georger on May 03, 2015, 05:24:59 PM
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I was reading two books based on D. B. Cooper: D. B. Cooper What Really Happened and D. B. Cooper The Real McCoy. I noticed that a lot of the information presented about the actual skyjacking contradicted wasn't present and a lot of the info I wanted wasn't even presented. I was wondering where I could find information on what really happened. All I could think of was the interviews with the plane crew and passengers, although to my knowledge these are not public. Any ideas?

Josh, both books you mention are written by cops, and you have just experienced one of the troubling dynamics of law enforcement, especially in the DB Cooper case. Basically, cops don't think their shit stinks, so what they write is the only stuff worth knowing about. Wait until you read Himmelsbach!

So, if you read their books with that perspective, and are willing to look elsewhere for a more comprehensive picture, then your abovementioned works are valuable, especially Calame and Rhodes, which I consider a remarkable addition to the Cooper literature. Nobody in LE is writing with such courage and delivering such searing information.

To wit: Rhodes writes that Cooper agents were under the influence of a post-hypnotic suggestion when he interviewed them!

So, that is why guys like me, a humble journalist, still has a job. We tend to tell a fuller story.

Bullshit. You are an IDIOT! ;D
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 03, 2015, 07:49:17 PM
There is always that perspective, too, Josh.
Title: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on May 03, 2015, 10:37:02 PM
Can any of the people who have made deliberate water jumps answer these questions:

1.  Will a back pack or reserve pack, completely unopened, float by itself if it lands in water and is not attached to anything?

2.  If so, how long will it float under the above conditions?  It is understood that it will eventually get saturated with water and then sink.     
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: nmiwrecks on May 04, 2015, 09:11:44 AM
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Can any of the people who have made deliberate water jumps answer these questions:

1.  Will a back pack or reserve pack, completely unopened, float by itself if it lands in water and is not attached to anything?

2.  If so, how long will it float under the above conditions?  It is understood that it will eventually get saturated with water and then sink.   

That's a great question.  I tend to think the chute packs and money bag would be negatively buoyant after the air is forced out of them.  The Cooper suspects body would probably be negatively buoyant also, because the impact would drive the air from his lungs and because of his body type.  It sounds like he didn't have much body fat, and muscle is about 3 time denser than fat, so in short, muscle tends to sink and fat tends to float.

We do need to find out if the chute packs are buoyant though.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on May 04, 2015, 12:50:46 PM
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Can any of the people who have made deliberate water jumps answer these questions:

1.  Will a back pack or reserve pack, completely unopened, float by itself if it lands in water and is not attached to anything?

2.  If so, how long will it float under the above conditions?  It is understood that it will eventually get saturated with water and then sink.   

That's a great question.  I tend to think the chute packs and money bag would be negatively buoyant after the air is forced out of them.  The Cooper suspects body would probably be negatively buoyant also, because the impact would drive the air from his lungs and because of his body type.  It sounds like he didn't have much body fat, and muscle is about 3 time denser than fat, so in short, muscle tends to sink and fat tends to float.

We do need to find out if the chute packs are buoyant though.

And the money bag itself was probably buoyant for a short time.  It was supposedly made out of heavy canvas, tightly bound by Cooper, and had a total weight of less than 25 pounds. 
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 04, 2015, 04:47:51 PM
Wouldn't it be something if Coop and the money ended up in the Pacific Gyre.

Off to Midway!  Inspect that debris!!!
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 04, 2015, 06:54:29 PM
They can disappear quickly in the river....

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1243&dat=19720902&id=JlNYAAAAIBAJ&sjid=g_cDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5252,4453834&hl=en
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: nmiwrecks on May 05, 2015, 09:03:07 PM
The thing that keeps slipping my mind is the Cooper suspect probably lost his shoes upon exiting flight 305.  So while the "survived the jump" vs. "died jumping" debate rages, the question remains, if the Cooper suspect survived the jump, how did he escape while merely wearing socks in the wilderness on a cold, wet night?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 05, 2015, 09:18:25 PM
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The thing that keeps slipping my mind is the Cooper suspect probably lost his shoes upon exiting flight 305.  So while the "survived the jump" vs. "died jumping" debate rages, the question remains, if the Cooper suspect survived the jump, how did he escape while merely wearing socks in the wilderness on a cold, wet night?


Has anyone shown what type of "loafers" he actually was thought to have on? I've heard people speculate, but has anyone nailed down what they thought he wore,other than the descriptions from Flo & Tina?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 05, 2015, 09:20:22 PM
My assessment of the jump and footwear is this:

There are three basic points of view that are expressed by Cooper aficionados:

1. Those folks who view Cooper as somebody like themselves. They say, I would have died if I jumped without jump boots, so Cooper must have died. Jerry Thomas is the leading advocate for this perspective.

2. The journalistic point of view, which holds that most skydivers feel that Cooper could have made the jump successfully because they know of many instances in their skydiving careers where people have jumped successfully naked, in flip-flops, sandals, loafers, sneakers, in the snow, in the rain, into the jungle, into thick forests. Therefore, footwear is not an issue.

3. The third group doesn't like #2 for a variety of personal reasons, such as they know of a skydiver who thinks Cooper was a whuffo and died in the jump, or don't want Cooper to have succeeded because they want to support other agendas, such as the FBI would never lie to them.

There are many facets of Norjak that subscribe to these dynamics, and you can substitute shoes of any number of aspects of the skyjacking and get the same type of answers. Such as: Cooper was underdressed, it was too cold, the wind chill was too severe, he picked the wrong chute, etc.

Bottom Line: Why are the shoes an issue for you?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 05, 2015, 09:32:10 PM
Another way to frame this discussion is:

Why do you think Richard LaPoint made it to the ground successfully? Assess that jump and you have a lot of answers for the Cooper jump.

Here are some possibilities:

1. Luck?
2. Total Dumb Luck
3. Divine Intervention.
4. Cowboy boots are the perfect footwear to wear for a jump - see he had boots!!!
5. The snow cushioned his impact.
6. It was so cold he never felt the impact of hitting the ground.
7. He was wishing so hard that he had a sweater or a coat that he forgot to worry about hitting the ground.
8. He was PTSD from Vietnam anyway, so go figure.
9. He was on drugs, and oxycodone will let you do anything.
10. Jumping out of a 727 in Colorado in January is ideal country and clime for a skydive - if you're wearing cowboy clothes - so what's the problem? Cowboys are bullet-proof, at least in Colorado, didn't you know?
11. He was so excited about making a quick 50 grand and dreaming of Hawaii that he didn't sweat it, which proves the mind-over-matter theory of existence.
12. The way the flight attendant looked at him when she handed over the money made him forget ALL of his problems... (see #11.)
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: nmiwrecks on May 05, 2015, 09:37:32 PM
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Bottom Line: Why are the shoes an issue for you?

Remote view yourself walking through the woods while wearing only socks on your feet.  It's somewhere around 40 degrees and wet out.  Are you making good time? 
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 05, 2015, 09:39:50 PM
Quote
1. Those folks who view Cooper as somebody like themselves. They say, I would have died if I jumped without jump boots, so Cooper must have died. Jerry Thomas is the leading advocate for this perspective.

2. The journalistic point of view, which holds that most skydivers feel that Cooper could have made the jump successfully because they know of many instances in their skydiving careers where people have jumped successfully naked, in flip-flops, sandals, loafers, sneakers, in the snow, in the rain, into the jungle, into thick forests. Therefore, footwear is not an issue.

3. The third group doesn't like #2 for a variety of personal reasons, such as they know of a skydiver who thinks Cooper was a whuffo and died in the jump, or don't want Cooper to have succeeded because they want to support other agendas, such as the FBI would never lie to them.


I don't agree that #1 would seal the deal, but it sure didn't help if he survived.

#2 could have a lot of bad points as well. we are speculating he could easily do this simply because others have. I know of a MMA fighter who use to train in the desert all the time, but he ended up dead out there. isn't it speculation to state he was an avid jumper? if he did know the reserve was a dummy, how would he have known nothing was wrong with the rest of the gear?

I think his survival probably would depend on where he landed, but obviously nobody has that answer. was he close to a road, or shelter etc.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on May 05, 2015, 10:56:35 PM
Honestly, you'd be surprised how well your feet can handle difficult conditions while barefoot. It's like we evolved those in the absence of shoes. Lots of local outdoorsey types hike barefoot (I guess it's a hipster thing) and I hate wearing shoes. It's actually one of the tests I'd like to try, to see how far I could hike in those conditions in stocking feet. I've walked several rounds of golf barefoot (maybe four miles of walking total), but that was in good weather.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: nmiwrecks on May 05, 2015, 11:16:44 PM
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Honestly, you'd be surprised how well your feet can handle difficult conditions while barefoot. It's like we evolved those in the absence of shoes. Lots of local outdoorsey types hike barefoot (I guess it's a hipster thing) and I hate wearing shoes. It's actually one of the tests I'd like to try, to see how far I could hike in those conditions in stocking feet. I've walked several rounds of golf barefoot (maybe four miles of walking total), but that was in good weather.
Good point.  After my feet spend the winter in warm socks and boots, the first few times I go barefoot, I can barely walk on the driveway.  After a week, the bottoms of my feet toughen up and I can walk over all kinds of crap (sticks, gravel).  Numb feet because of cold might sound like a blessing at first, but walking through the woods, even on a path (if you can find one in the dark) would become quite treacherous and I tend to think injury would be imminent. 

Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on May 06, 2015, 12:27:08 AM
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Honestly, you'd be surprised how well your feet can handle difficult conditions while barefoot. It's like we evolved those in the absence of shoes. Lots of local outdoorsey types hike barefoot (I guess it's a hipster thing) and I hate wearing shoes. It's actually one of the tests I'd like to try, to see how far I could hike in those conditions in stocking feet. I've walked several rounds of golf barefoot (maybe four miles of walking total), but that was in good weather.
Good point.  After my feet spend the winter in warm socks and boots, the first few times I go barefoot, I can barely walk on the driveway.  After a week, the bottoms of my feet toughen up and I can walk over all kinds of crap (sticks, gravel).  Numb feet because of cold might sound like a blessing at first, but walking through the woods, even on a path (if you can find one in the dark) would become quite treacherous and I tend to think injury would be imminent.

Yeah, his best chance, assuming no shoes, would be to stay put for the night (wrapped in the parachute, assuming it wasn't stuck up a tree) and to make some kind of improvised foot wrapping with the stuff he had on him in the morning. Tough situation, and good luck hitchhiking with shoes made of parachute.

I know I'm generally on the "Cooper made it" side, but even so, it woulda been a heluva survival challenge.

Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Jerry Thomas on May 06, 2015, 12:51:16 AM
REF: Loss of shoes by the hijacker. Bottom line is the terrain in the area that I believe cooper would have landed would have kept him from making much headway in getting out of the area. He would have had a hard landing and would have injured his feet. If any of you have the opportunity to visit the area you will quickly understand why.Remember even McCoy was injured during his jump with a familiar chute and he landed in the desert. Cooper wasn't even familiar with the chute he chose to use it was modified by Cossey  and was very difficult to deploy. My opinion is still the same Cooper never got the chute opened.  Jerry
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: sailshaw on May 06, 2015, 10:30:06 AM
Jerry Thomas    You bring up the phony story that DB used the chute that was modified by Cossey. That is totally false as DB got the two chutes that were provided by Norm Hayden (his two acrobatic safety chutes). That phoney story came from Cossey who I think was trying to throw the FBI off as he could have been part of the crime (one of the ground men). Cossey never got the story right on the chutes and continued to think he provided the two "back chutes".

On the subject of loafers that DB wore, take a look at the picture below of Sheridan Peterson's loafers he wore for the advertisement in the Boeing News paper just 8 years before Norjack and dressed just like DB did for the caper. Another note is that two Ace Bandages each wrapped around a loafer wold have held his shoes on and strengthen his ankles per Allan McCarther the Pres of the Boeing Skydiving Club that Peterson started.

Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on May 06, 2015, 03:44:07 PM
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Jerry Thomas    You bring up the phony story that DB used the chute that was modified by Cossey. That is totally false as DB got the two chutes that were provided by Norm Hayden (his two acrobatic safety chutes). That phoney story came from Cossey who I think was trying to throw the FBI off as he could have been part of the crime (one of the ground men). Cossey never got the story right on the chutes and continued to think he provided the two "back chutes".

On the subject of loafers that DB wore, take a look at the picture below of Sheridan Peterson's loafers he wore for the advertisement in the Boeing News paper just 8 years before Norjack and dressed just like DB did for the caper. Another note is that two Ace Bandages each wrapped around a loafer wold have held his shoes on and strengthen his ankles per Allan McCarther the Pres of the Boeing Skydiving Club that Peterson started.

Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com

 ;D  Your photos are too dark to see anything. Here.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 06, 2015, 03:48:12 PM
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Bottom Line: Why are the shoes an issue for you?

Remote view yourself walking through the woods while wearing only socks on your feet.  It's somewhere around 40 degrees and wet out.  Are you making good time?

That's what levitation is for!

Another option is that DBC took the reserve chute, cut it up for booties, and stuffed them with bundles of twenties, so he had superb mukluks to stomp through the mud. Saving his loafers for his stroll out of the woods....
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: sailshaw on May 06, 2015, 04:28:34 PM
Georger and Jerry Thomas      Thanks Georger for making the shoes lighter so the details can be seen. It is just a portion of the Boeing News photo that was used for the add. If I could reduce the resolution of the photo I could attach it to my post here. Possibly I could send the whole photo to you Georger and you could post a reduced resolution of the photo. It shows Sheridan all spread-out with his hands in the air like a skydiving position but in his trademark suit just like DB Cooper but 8 years before the Norjak Caper. Jerry, sorry to call the Cossey Chute story a phoney, but it is as DB received the two chutes from Norm Hayden who told me the two chutes were alike and in two different carriers (sports type and Military type). Jerry I would like to get together with you sometime for lunch on me at my YC and with Bruce Smith. I think we have some common items to discuss that might be of interest to you.
PS the double photo's of the shoes was due to my attempt to lighten the photo and it did not work. You were able to do it and thanks again.

Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: nmiwrecks on May 06, 2015, 06:17:14 PM
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On the subject of loafers that DB wore, take a look at the picture below of Sheridan Peterson's loafers he wore for the advertisement in the Boeing News paper just 8 years before Norjack and dressed just like DB did for the caper.
Those are photos of a shoe, not a loafer.

Let me expound.  The Cooper suspect's footwear was described as loafers, which are a type of shoe.  Loafers are basically defined as a low leather step in shoe, which resembles a moccasin with a flat heel.  They are not a lace up dress shoe, which would be referred to as a "shoe". 
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on May 06, 2015, 11:29:14 PM
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Georger and Jerry Thomas      Thanks Georger for making the shoes lighter so the details can be seen. It is just a portion of the Boeing News photo that was used for the add. If I could reduce the resolution of the photo I could attach it to my post here. Possibly I could send the whole photo to you Georger and you could post a reduced resolution of the photo. It shows Sheridan all spread-out with his hands in the air like a skydiving position but in his trademark suit just like DB Cooper but 8 years before the Norjak Caper. Jerry, sorry to call the Cossey Chute story a phoney, but it is as DB received the two chutes from Norm Hayden who told me the two chutes were alike and in two different carriers (sports type and Military type). Jerry I would like to get together with you sometime for lunch on me at my YC and with Bruce Smith. I think we have some common items to discuss that might be of interest to you.
PS the double photo's of the shoes was due to my attempt to lighten the photo and it did not work. You were able to do it and thanks again.

Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com

you have incoming ...
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on May 06, 2015, 11:31:17 PM
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On the subject of loafers that DB wore, take a look at the picture below of Sheridan Peterson's loafers he wore for the advertisement in the Boeing News paper just 8 years before Norjack and dressed just like DB did for the caper.
Those are photos of a shoe, not a loafer.

Let me expound.  The Cooper suspect's footwear was described as loafers, which are a type of shoe.  Loafers are basically defined as a low leather step in shoe, which resembles a moccasin with a flat heel.  They are not a lace up dress shoe, which would be referred to as a "shoe".

Here is a penny loafer ... loafers are a slip on style shoe with no laces. An oxford dress shoe has laces.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Jerry Thomas on May 06, 2015, 11:34:29 PM
Sailshaw: About the chutes and shoes my info comes directly from Ralph and the FBI. Phony I don't think so. Still you didn't upset me at all you voiced your view on the subject,  I've known you for a number of years now and you have always been straight up in your opinion. I respect that. Your right we do need to get together soon I plan on being over in the Shelton area and Forks this summer. I need to spend some time at my place on the ocean its 24mi south of forks by ruby beach. In Shelton theirs 20 acres there I'm looking at buying. Think I might retire again Naaa that won't happen but Shelton is one of the places  I went to high school and a lot of my old friends still live there.  Jerry
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: sailshaw on May 07, 2015, 01:54:39 AM
George   You show a photo of a Penney Loafer and a Dress Shoe. We also call the shoe that Sheridan wore a Loafer as it has just three lace holes and can be slipped into/outof if the laces are not too tight just like the Penney Loafer. Anyway, that is what we called them in my days and I am 80 years old now. What Sheridan is wearing is certainly not a Dress Shoe and I bet that is what he wore for the Norjak Caper.

Jerry The Cossey chute story was what he told Ralph (as the FBI agent) but it is not true as a lot of the info the FBI was told by Cossey. If you read the new book by Bruce Smith, the chute story is correct in the book that the two delivered to DB were from Norm Hayden and in the picture below he is wearing the chute that was returned to him by the FBI as DB did not return the other.

Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on May 07, 2015, 04:04:12 AM
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George   You show a photo of a Penney Loafer and a Dress Shoe. We also call the shoe that Sheridan wore a Loafer as it has just three lace holes and can be slipped into/outof if the laces are not too tight just like the Penney Loafer. Anyway, that is what we called them in my days and I am 80 years old now. What Sheridan is wearing is certainly not a Dress Shoe and I bet that is what he wore for the Norjak Caper.

Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com

I can slip in and out of my hip wader loafer too. Loafing is as loafer does!  ;)
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Jerry Thomas on May 07, 2015, 08:12:10 AM
Sailshaw: They got 4 chutes Hayden got his back Cossey didn't The 2 missing chutes was Cosseys and the dummy chute with the white X. Bruce is mistaken. According to Ralph last night I'm right. Bruce did not discuss this with Ralph. Believe me when I say this case is deceiving due to the number of years that has past and the number of books that has been written. One needs to go back to the beginning of this case and go to the FBI case files in Seattle and read. Then talk to all the agents in this case as I have. I know this case forward and backwards I've been Involved with it for 30yrs.  Jerry      PS: Cossey  and others have changed stories in the past in an attempt to make money on this case. Lets not forget our famous Marla Cooper and a few others to include authors who has attempted to fraud this case in the recent years. This is the last I will post on this subject, I don't believe it is worth arguing over the bottom line, this case is still unsolved and you and others are trying to help solve it. That is what is Important now.    Jerry
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: sailshaw on May 07, 2015, 10:38:17 AM
Jerry Thomas   I know you and Ralph are very good friends and you respect what he tells you and you have a different conclusion about the chutes but the FBI still has not solved the crime and don't know who Cooper is and will never find out using their misinformation they have. I have known who DB was since 1961 and he is still alive and well in California. I know how to solve the crime and have passed my information on to the FBI. They have been placed on "STAND DOWN" so nothing gets done and they can't figure it out with the bad information they have. I like the FBI very much and have been waiting for them to finally solve the case, but it is going nowhere as they are on STAND DOWN. The simple clue to solving the case rests in the DNA under the Stamps/Envelope Flaps of the four letters sent to the newspapers. DB had plenty of time to think out and plan his caper, but DNA was not a technique used in those early days as so it was not considered and overlooked by DB. It is such a simple (at little cost) clue to find the DNA under the stamps/envelope flaps and compare with what was taken from Sheridan Peterson by the two female agents. A match (and I am sure there will be a match with Sheridan's DNA) will prove he was in Portland and not in Nepal as his phoney alibi goes. DB thought of everything and his caper was well planed except for the DNA, I even believe his only disguise was the cosmetic BROWN contact lens (to cover his blue eyes) that he proudly showed the Flight Attendants before he put on the sunglasses for the remainder of the flight. The most simple of disguises and it has worked well. We need to get together sometime and talk.

Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com

PS another photo of Sheridan's shoes (left and right) is attached.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Jerry Thomas on May 07, 2015, 01:28:49 PM
Bob , I'm will aware of your suspect for Cooper. I respect your dedication to this quest. However your post says 1961 you may want to change it to read 1971, just saying.   Jerry
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on May 07, 2015, 01:37:12 PM
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Sailshaw: They got 4 chutes Hayden got his back Cossey didn't The 2 missing chutes was Cosseys and the dummy chute with the white X. Bruce is mistaken. According to Ralph last night I'm right. Bruce did not discuss this with Ralph. Believe me when I say this case is deceiving due to the number of years that has past and the number of books that has been written. One needs to go back to the beginning of this case and go to the FBI case files in Seattle and read. Then talk to all the agents in this case as I have. I know this case forward and backwards I've been Involved with it for 30yrs.  Jerry      PS: Cossey  and others have changed stories in the past in an attempt to make money on this case. Lets not forget our famous Marla Cooper and a few others to include authors who has attempted to fraud this case in the recent years. This is the last I will post on this subject, I don't believe it is worth arguing over the bottom line, this case is still unsolved and you and others are trying to help solve it. That is what is Important now.    Jerry

Your remarks above are nothing but pure intimidation based on some mythology you continue to peddle - about having special information and position in the DB Cooper case. So far as I have ever been able to determine, nothing could be further from the truth.  Your claims are a mythology so far. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beans,_Beans,_the_Musical_Fruit

Himmelsbach was never in charge of the Cooper case as you claim, not remotely, and you aren't either!   

DB Cooper Bullshiteers Anonymous of the State of Washington & Oregon.

Give us a break! ;D
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 07, 2015, 04:16:40 PM
Jerry! You just got here and now you're clamming up?  What gives?

If I'm wrong about the ownership of the chutes, then you and Ralph have to explain both the FBI documentation that states Norman Hayden is the owner of the back chutes that went aboard 305, and also Norman's entire narrative, along with supporting evidence such as the returned parachute and the rigging card from Cossey.

You've got some 'splainin' to do, buddy.

BTW: Thanks for your promise to buy my book!
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: nmiwrecks on May 07, 2015, 07:08:45 PM
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I even believe his only disguise was the cosmetic BROWN contact lens (to cover his blue eyes) that he proudly showed the Flight Attendants before he put on the sunglasses for the remainder of the flight. The most simple of disguises and it has worked well.
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com

The "blue eyes" thing is tough to overcome.  Contact lenses were in their infancy in 1971 and they were very rare, and very expensive.  Hair dye would have been a much more practical way to disguise ones appearance. Speaking of hair, Peterson doesn't appear to have much in the photos I've seen.  Could you post more photos of him please?  How tall is he?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Jerry Thomas on May 07, 2015, 09:55:02 PM
Bruce I bought your book now I have to buy a kindle any suggestions.  By the way hello Georger every thing going ok hope so I'll research in greater detail about the chutes after I talk to Bruce. Jerry
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: sailshaw on May 08, 2015, 10:12:59 AM
Georger:   You are now claiming that I claim that Mr. H was in charge of the DB Cooper case. That is totally not correct Here is what I said from my post: " The Cossey chute story was what he told Ralph (as the FBI agent) but it is not true as a lot of the info the FBI was told by Cossey.".

Also, I first met Sheridan Peterson in 1961 when he stayed at my home for one month. That is ten years before Norjack and why are you trying to confuse my story? You should be working to better understand what took place. Have you read Bruce's new book yet? He quote's my information right on about the case.

About brown cosmetic contact lens: My Yacht Club friend "Jim Erickson" tells me the cosmetic lens were available in hard contact form and not very expensive in 1971. Also, a pair of home made cosmetic lens could also have been made by using a pair of clear hard contacts, sprayed with brown model airplane lacquer (masking off a small round place to see through). Jim's father started Erickson Lab and was in business before Norjack and he knows the business. He says soft lens were just becoming popular at that time and the Lab could provide even a tinted (to make finding s lost lens easier) lens, so brown hard lens would have been used in those days to make cosmetic lens. 

Attached is the best photo I have of Sheridan from the Boeing News file working photo which was used to make the add for the  new Boeing Skydiving Club.

Bob Sailshaw
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on May 08, 2015, 02:28:51 PM
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Georger:   You are now claiming that I claim that Mr. H was in charge of the DB Cooper case. That is totally not correct Here is what I said from my post: " The Cossey chute story was what he told Ralph (as the FBI agent) but it is not true as a lot of the info the FBI was told by Cossey.".

Bob Sailshaw

Ive never said any such thing. My reference is not to you. My reference is to Jerry Thomas who basically claims he knows more about NORJAK than any living human! Thomas basically claims H was in charge of NORJAK, H had/has info about NORJAK that nobody else has/had,  that H has NORJAK files that nobody else has, that the FBI flight path map is wrong, that 305 flew a path in or near the Washougal where Cooper bailed before 305 crossed the Columbia over the Troutdale Airport (not at Portland), and on and on and on and on ....

Those are Jerry Thomas' claims, not yours. I have never said you made such claims.

Basically, Mr. Thomas is saying 'everything Cooper should go through him and nobody else because he-Thomas is the foremost expert on NORJAK', based on his friendship with retired FBI Agent Ralph Himmelsbach who once worked for the FBI and chased the hijacked jet liner in a heliocopter.

Thomas claims he has access to the FBI and FBI files that no other living human has.

Thomas claims he is an expert on all phases of the NORJAK case.

Himmelsbach and Jerry Thomas are to NORJAK as Albert Einstein and Rutherford were to Physics, according to MR. Thomas!

You Sailshaw need to get Jerry Thomas on your side if you ever hope to progress at all in your case for Peterson being DB Cooper. Jo Weber learned that lesson the hard way - don;t make the mistake she made!

 :)   
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: nmiwrecks on May 09, 2015, 10:15:16 AM
So how many Cooper copycats survived their jumps?  Did any Cooper copycats go "splat"?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on May 09, 2015, 01:50:06 PM
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So how many Cooper copycats survived their jumps?  Did any Cooper copycats go "splat"?

Extensive posts on that over at DZ _ the unregulated closed Cooper thread that was hijacked by Aliens.

 :o
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 09, 2015, 04:57:17 PM
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So how many Cooper copycats survived their jumps?  Did any Cooper copycats go "splat"?

All who jumped, survived:

1. Robb Heady
2. Martin McNally (didn't know how to put on his chute)
3. Richard La Point (January in Colorado and no jacket or sweater- but he had his cowboy boots!)
4. Richard McCoy
5. Frederick Hahneman

No splats!

For those who haven't reached Chapter 29 in my book, yet, here is the relevant info:

Chapter 29


Copycats



At the risk of becoming lost in the fog of conspiracy looking for evidence of group activity, we need to look more closely at the copycats if for no other reason than some in the FBI, such as Ralph Himmelsbach, consider DB Cooper to be one.
“You have to remember that Cooper was a copycat,” he told me when I visited him at his home in 2011.
Himmelsbach claimed that the first skyjacker to demand a ransom and parachute was not Cooper, but a fellow he called “Gaylord.”
However, Ralph was incorrect. The first skydiving extortionist was actually named Paul Cini, and he hijacked an Air Canada flight out of Calgary, Alberta two weeks before Cooper’s caper.
Nevertheless, Himmelsbach is spot-on with his general analysis.
“With each new skyjacking, the skyjackers improved their techniques,” Ralph said, echoing fellow FBI agent Russ Calame’s evaluation of McCoy’s effort.
Along those lines, I was surprised to hear Himmelsbach confirm Calame’s conclusion that McCoy was not home in Provo during the Cooper skyjacking, because it meant Ralph was willing to hold an opinion opposed to the current view held by the FBI.
“We did look at McCoy in the Cooper case, but he (McCoy) was in Las Vegas when the Cooper skyjacking took place,” Ralph declared.
But what was McCoy doing in Las Vegas during the Cooper hijacking? Ralph!  I
muttered quietly, but was unable to pursue because Ralph’s dinner company arrived.
I’d also like Ralph to amplify his perspective on the copycats because he is the only one I know to have stated that there were twenty Cooper-esque skyjackers in the months following Norjak. Other published accounts say a dozen or so, and I have been able to find fourteen. This haze casts a pall of mystery over the topic.
Nevertheless, most authors talk about the four primary copycats: McCoy, Robb Heady, Martin McNally, and Frederick Hahneman. All made it to the ground safely, even McNally even though he had never parachuted before, which belies the proposition that the Cooper jump was too dangerous to be successful.
But the essential question remains: were they a group? Did any of them know DB Cooper or Paul Cini? Were they coached in any manner? How did these skyjackings evolve, as Himmelsbach has observed. Was it an organic process and achieved by skyjackers merely reading newspaper accounts of previous hijackings, or were they part of somebody’s deliberate plan?
Frankly, there is not enough information available to the public to make any
 
determination on that question, and it reveals some of the limitations of open-sourced sleuthing—we just don’t have enough muscle to unearth these kinds of facts.
Nevertheless, this inquiry received a shot of adrenaline from an unexpected source: the Washington State Historical Museum in Tacoma. In 2013, they opened a major exhibit on DB Cooper and mentioned that DB Cooper had thirteen copycats. I asked the WSHM to provide me with a list of these Cooper-esque hijackers, and they gave me s few names I had never seen anywhere else.
Their primary source is the website called “Skyjacker of the Day—a Hundred Days, A Hundred Skyjackers,” a site originally developed to build interest in the June 2013 launch of the book, The Skies Belong to Us—Love and Terror in the Golden Age of Hijackings, by Brendan Koerner.


http://skyjackeroftheday.tumblr.com/


Koener’s book is an overview of the entire skyjacking phenomena and portrays
a wonderful subtext for the DB Cooper episode. Koerner’s tome is wrapped around a lengthy narrative of the hijacking of Western Flight 701, performed by two fugitives— Roger Holder and Cathy Kerkow—and includes a juicy romance, Black Panther politics and a dicey escape to Algiers.
But one of the most intriguing aspects of Koerner’s work is showing how many skyjackings were occurring in the United States in the early 1970s—hundreds—and how they even overlapped, with multiple hijackings in one day and even involving the same airport. I was astonished to learn that one of the Cooper copycats, Robb Heady, hijacked his plane on the same day as Holder and Kerkow, and in fact Heady directed his plane to SFO just as their Western 401 was taking off for Algeria!
The following is a list of what we know about bona fide copycats—the proviso being that a Cooper copycat has to demand a ransom and use a parachute to escape.


1.  Paul Cini…    Air Canada 812…    11. 13. 71
2.  DB Cooper…   Northwest Orient 305…    11. 24. 71
3.  Everett Holt…    Northwest Orient 734…    12. 24. 71
4.  Billy Hurst, Jr.… Braniff 38…       1. 12. 72
5. Richard LaPoint… Hughes Air West 800…   1. 20. 72
6.  Richard McCoy… United 855…       4. 7. 72
7.  Stanley Spreck… Pacific Southwest 942        4. 9 72
8.  Frederick Hahneman… Eastern 175…    5. 5. 72
9.  “Lomas”…    Ecuadoriana de Aviacion…5. 22. 72
10. Robb Heady…    United 239…       6. 2. 72
11. Martin McNally… American 119…    6. 23. 72
12. Daniel Carre…    Hughes Airwest 775…    6. 30. 72
 13. Francis Goodell… Pacific Southwest 389… 7. 6. 72
14. Melvin Fisher… American 633…       7. 12. 72


Bold type indicates the skyjacker made it to the ground successfully.
The rest were apprehended by the FBI or flight crews before they could jump.


Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 09, 2015, 09:09:17 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMBOdBrqLmI
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 09, 2015, 11:22:08 PM
Geoffrey's interview on Author Talk is fantastic. I hadn't seen this one before.  Thanks.

GG is so smooth!  A real inspiration.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: nmiwrecks on May 09, 2015, 11:43:08 PM
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So how many Cooper copycats survived their jumps?  Did any Cooper copycats go "splat"?

All who jumped, survived:

1. Robb Heady
2. Martin McNally (didn't know how to put on his chute)
3. Richard La Point (January in Colorado and no jacket or sweater- but he had his cowboy boots!)
4. Richard McCoy
5. Frederick Hahneman

No splats!

For those who haven't reached Chapter 29 in my book, yet, here is the relevant info:

Great answer Bruce.  Thanks for not answering the question like a douche-bag.  I find it interesting that all the other jumpers survived.  But on the other hand, it seems they all were apprehended soon afterward.  So if the Cooper suspect survived because everybody else survived, wouldn't it stand to reason he would have been captured immediately because everybody else was?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on May 10, 2015, 03:34:18 AM
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So how many Cooper copycats survived their jumps?  Did any Cooper copycats go "splat"?

All who jumped, survived:

1. Robb Heady
2. Martin McNally (didn't know how to put on his chute)
3. Richard La Point (January in Colorado and no jacket or sweater- but he had his cowboy boots!)
4. Richard McCoy
5. Frederick Hahneman

No splats!

For those who haven't reached Chapter 29 in my book, yet, here is the relevant info:

Great answer Bruce.  Thanks for not answering the question like a douche-bag.  I find it interesting that all the other jumpers survived.  But on the other hand, it seems they all were apprehended soon afterward.  So if the Cooper suspect survived because everybody else survived, wouldn't it stand to reason he would have been captured immediately because everybody else was?

The problem with saying Cooper should have been caught like all the others is that the lessons learned (i.e. the pressure bump) from the Cooper hijacking were used to pinpoint all the later jumpers. The lack of proper ground coverage in Cooper's case led to an overwhelming use of ground coverage and searching in the following cases (except the guy who jumped into the jungle, he later just gave himself up). The search coverage was so solid, that in McCoy's case, he was one of the men searching for himself.

(And McCoy blabbed to someone else, that never helps.)

This is all an example of the problem of induction. We can't assume that every hijacking involving a parachute will play out the same way. They are all quite different. Instead, we have to ask ourselves, probabilistically, what was Cooper's likely outcome. Parachutes, even in bad weather with inexperienced jumpers doing their deeds at night, are very effective lifesaving tools. It's difficult imagining Cooper not pulling the ripcord.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on May 10, 2015, 03:24:05 PM
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So how many Cooper copycats survived their jumps?  Did any Cooper copycats go "splat"?

All who jumped, survived:

1. Robb Heady
2. Martin McNally (didn't know how to put on his chute)
3. Richard La Point (January in Colorado and no jacket or sweater- but he had his cowboy boots!)
4. Richard McCoy
5. Frederick Hahneman

No splats!

For those who haven't reached Chapter 29 in my book, yet, here is the relevant info:

Great answer Bruce.  Thanks for not answering the question like a douche-bag.  I find it interesting that all the other jumpers survived.  But on the other hand, it seems they all were apprehended soon afterward.  So if the Cooper suspect survived because everybody else survived, wouldn't it stand to reason he would have been captured immediately because everybody else was?

The problem with saying Cooper should have been caught like all the others is that the lessons learned (i.e. the pressure bump) from the Cooper hijacking were used to pinpoint all the later jumpers. The lack of proper ground coverage in Cooper's case led to an overwhelming use of ground coverage and searching in the following cases (except the guy who jumped into the jungle, he later just gave himself up). The search coverage was so solid, that in McCoy's case, he was one of the men searching for himself.

(And McCoy blabbed to someone else, that never helps.)

This is all an example of the problem of induction. We can't assume that every hijacking involving a parachute will play out the same way. They are all quite different. Instead, we have to ask ourselves, probabilistically, what was Cooper's likely outcome. Parachutes, even in bad weather with inexperienced jumpers doing their deeds at night, are very effective lifesaving tools. It's difficult imagining Cooper not pulling the ripcord.

It might be noteworthy to ask: would the chances of Cooper's apprehension been greater had he bailed somewhere south of the Columbia River, or even closer to Seattle, vs. in the area between Seattle and the Columbia? Especially given the time of day, the cover of darkness and weather, etc. So, were the conditions of Cooper's jump somehow different than the other hijackings where people jumped (which is few!).

The conditions and the resources available to apprehend Cooper when and where he jumped, were few to nonexistent. Let's imagine Himmelsbach's miraculous attempt at spotting Cooper from a helo near Woodland would have succeeded ... what then? Could resources have been called in to surround and net Cooper that night? Or would Himmelsbach been put on the ground to try and apprehend Mr. Cooper, himself in some heroic struggle? The facts seem to be that 'nobody knew with any certainty where Cooper was or had bailed' that night. And nobody was brought in and put on the ground to search - anywhere. Not even an area was cordoned off  or cars brought in and put at strategic locations or road intersections ... looking for Cooper that night and trying to hem in into an area where resources could be committed at sunset? Cooper examined the chutes and looked at the rigging cards _ he may have also been looking for locators or chaf? Were any public alerts broadcast on any radio station ... to be on the lookout for a hijacker? No lone guy wandered into a gas station asking for directions and a ham sandwich? Some girl reports a guy walking out of the woods with a suitcase and nobody is called in to check ... but is that story true?

If he is a DOA he isn't going to leave any clues or be moving around. Depending on whose version of the Cooper story you buy into, he may not have know where in hell he was! We know the pilots and NWA and the Air Force made at attempt to identify exactly when and where he bailed. But there was a problem getting resources into that area under the prevailing conditions that night.

We are told that an SR71 was even brought in to try and spot Cooper or anything unusual that might lead to Cooper's apprehension! That is a serious resource to bring in and direct at finding one lone hijacker! That fact alone suggests a serious lack of resources in any ordinary search for Mr. Cooper and his parachute.

It makes me sometimes wonder just how close the huge investigation looking for Cooper may have come to actually finding Cooper, or some major piece of evidence, but just missed it by a hair? Such is the romance of the Cooper case.

 ;)   


   
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: sailshaw on May 10, 2015, 04:59:55 PM
Georger:  Your comment is "It makes me sometimes wonder just how close the huge investigation looking for Cooper may have come to actually finding Cooper, or some major piece of evidence, but just missed it by a hair? Such is the romance of the Cooper case."

My answer is:  "The DNA evidence on the four letters sent to the Newspapers and under the stamps and envelope flaps when compared with what the FBI has from Sheridan Peterson will lead directly to solving the case as it would shoot down his phoney alibi about being in Nepal at the time of Norjak. That is how close the FBI were to solving the case and now they are on HOLD or STAND DOWN and will never solve it. It would not cost much to get the DNA from the letters and compare with Sheridan's."  What they got from the tie is useless and they know it.

Bob Saillshaw
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 10, 2015, 05:43:22 PM
Remember, the FBI gave DB Cooper a 12-hour head start.  He jumped at 8:13 pm on Wednesday night and the feds didn't send folks out until the next morning. First light was about 7 am.

What happened to the Cowboys?

As Georger has mentioned, there were no road blocks, neighborhood searches or warnings. Thursday morning saw about 25 local cops and volunteers look for Coop in over 20 square miles of identified LZ. The feds stayed back in Woodland awaiting developments.

Feds also commandeered six helos - from timber companies and the Oregon NAtional Guard. Plus Himms in his fixed-wing. But it was rainy, cloudy and foggy. Then the aerial search was called off for Friday and Saturday due to weather. Then resumed on Sunday.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 10, 2015, 05:52:52 PM
Immediate capture is not a given, not even for the copycatters.

McNally was in local police custody that night, but released.  He was then arrested three days later after being betrayed by a buddy in Michigan, who told the cops who, what, where and when.

Robb was surrounded by 150 local cops that night.

Hahnemann jumped who knows where in the jungle, and then turned himself in 30 days later.

McCoy had an estimated 200 cops looking for him in the scrub around Provo and they still missed him.

LaPoint was a sitting duck because he was in the middle of a snow-covered field with an orange parachute. Plus the chaff in the chute alerted the FAA fixed wing circling the area
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 10, 2015, 05:55:38 PM
Note to Georger:

The image of Himms mud-wrestlin' with Danny Boy in the boonies is priceless. Let's develop that scenario!
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 10, 2015, 05:58:45 PM
What does the SR 71 tell us?

Good question, G. To me, it is a "Hail Mary" pass designed primarily for public relations. Also, the typical weather of the PNW and its constant cloud cover shows the limitations of even the most sophisticated equipment. Now, I suppose, we have thermal imaging down to an exact science, so to speak....
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 10, 2015, 06:01:42 PM
Where to jump when stealing an airplane:

Another consideration in picking an LZ is the ease the ground team have of finding and extracting their guy. This aspect of the case gets very little attention, as the notion of Cooper as a Lone Warrior predominates the view of most researchers. But it may not be true.

Jake!  Please call me !!!!!!!
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on May 11, 2015, 12:01:41 AM
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Remember, the FBI gave DB Cooper a 12-hour head start.  He jumped at 8:13 pm on Wednesday night and the feds didn't send folks out until the next morning. First light was about 7 am.

What happened to the Cowboys?

As Georger has mentioned, there were no road blocks, neighborhood searches or warnings. Thursday morning saw about 25 local cops and volunteers look for Coop in over 20 square miles of identified LZ. The feds stayed back in Woodland awaiting developments.

Feds also commandeered six helos - from timber companies and the Oregon NAtional Guard. Plus Himms in his fixed-wing. But it was rainy, cloudy and foggy. Then the aerial search was called off for Friday and Saturday due to weather. Then resumed on Sunday.

A breakdown of the areas searched by each team and plot this on a map?

Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 11, 2015, 04:21:39 PM
The only "teams" that I know of came from the Clark County Sheriff. Under-Sherrif Tom McDowell told me his search was conducted in Amboy along Buncombe Rd, off Cedar Creek Rd, which is just south of the Ariel Tavern. He told me he had about 20 guys out in the woods.

No maps, coordinates, etc.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: sailshaw on May 11, 2015, 06:45:03 PM
Bruce:   You say "Another consideration in picking an LZ is the ease the ground team have of finding and extracting their guy. This aspect of the case gets very little attention, as the notion of Cooper as a Lone Warrior predominates the view of most researchers. But it may not be true."

I say that I think there could have been two Ground Men (Cossey and Duane Webber). When Duane told Jo that "maybe I was one of the Ground Men" he was talking about where DB came out of the woods at the North end of Lake Lacama (just East of Vancouver). That location makes a lot of sense and could have meant that they were talking with DB to home in on where he was landing (in the woods). Duane could have got there first and Cossey followed as they all could have been talking on their CB's.
Bob Sailshaw 73's
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: 377 on May 11, 2015, 07:30:46 PM
These were shot at the 2006 WFFC, DC 9-21 exits. Informative. These are highly experienced skydivers exiting and look through all the pics to see various displays of instability immediately upon exit. http://www.freefall.com/webcam/2006pics/July_22/index.html

The best bet for DBC, based on the Thailand 727 jump videos,  would be to have faced forward at the bottom of the stairs, pulled the ripcord and let the inflating canopy pull him off. No tumbling, no disorientation.

377
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 11, 2015, 07:34:39 PM
Did you forget the pics?

Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on May 11, 2015, 07:45:00 PM
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Did you forget the pics?

Use the clickable link in 377's post.  There are about 400 pictures at least at that link.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: 377 on May 11, 2015, 07:45:52 PM
Georger wrote:
Quote
Himmelsbach and Jerry Thomas are to NORJAK as Albert Einstein and Rutherford were to Physics, according to MR. Thomas!

I liken Jerry more to Hahn than Rutherford. http://harpers.org/archive/1998/11/the-radioactive-boy-scout/

I really enjoyed meeting Jerry and his wife Shelley at the Portland symposium. Despite all our strong disagreement about Cooper's chances of survival (Jerry saying low and me saying high) he greeted me warmly and we had a great time trading opposing views. He has more credentials than I do to opine as an expert, having been a Special Forces survival instructor, military parachutist etc. I have a lot more jumps than he does but every one was made over a DZ, not one night wilderness landing. He also knows the area over which Cooper jumped and I do not.

Still, I think the chances of Cooper landing alive were high.

377



Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 11, 2015, 07:46:39 PM
Crap  ;D

I didn't see that....thanks 99
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 11, 2015, 07:53:21 PM
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Georger wrote:
Quote
Himmelsbach and Jerry Thomas are to NORJAK as Albert Einstein and Rutherford were to Physics, according to MR. Thomas!

I liken Jerry more to Hahn than Rutherford. http://harpers.org/archive/1998/11/the-radioactive-boy-scout/

I really enjoyed meeting Jerry and his wife Shelley at the Portland symposium. Despite all our strong disagreement about Cooper's chances of survival (Jerry saying low and me saying high) he greeted me warmly and we had a great time trading opposing views. He has more credentials than I do to opine as an expert, having been a Special Forces survival instructor, military parachutist etc. I have a lot more jumps than he does but every one was made over a DZ, not one night wilderness landing. He also knows the area over which Cooper jumped and I do not.

Still, I think the chances of Cooper landing alive were high.

377


Jerry is pretty solid on an easterly flight path, and a no pull....I spoke with Jerry several times last week, nice guy.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 11, 2015, 07:56:58 PM
This one is from the movie about Cooper The pursuit of DB Cooper..this was shot with the plane flying 150 knots...
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 11, 2015, 08:11:29 PM
Robb said he tumbled hard for about 15 seconds once he hit the slipstream, which occurred a few moments after he jumped.

Also, remember he was going at least 300 mph.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 11, 2015, 09:03:06 PM
I made this a few years ago. it's also from the movie...the stuntman told Larry Carr 150 knots was as fast as he wanted to go...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eluyyA_JPII
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on May 11, 2015, 10:36:58 PM
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Robb said he tumbled hard for about 15 seconds once he hit the slipstream, which occurred a few moments after he jumped.

Also, remember he was going at least 300 mph.

If jumping from the end of the aft stairs of a 727, you would hit the slipstream in no more than one second.  I believe the 300 MPH guy actually jumped from a side fuselage exit and he would be contacting the slipstream as soon as any part of his body was more than 3 or 4 inches from the outside of the fuselage.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 11, 2015, 10:40:35 PM
Mcnally lost his pants in the jump.. :o everything was spread out after he jumped...
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 11, 2015, 11:28:43 PM
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Robb said he tumbled hard for about 15 seconds once he hit the slipstream, which occurred a few moments after he jumped.

Also, remember he was going at least 300 mph.

If jumping from the end of the aft stairs of a 727, you would hit the slipstream in no more than one second.  I believe the 300 MPH guy actually jumped from a side fuselage exit and he would be contacting the slipstream as soon as any part of his body was more than 3 or 4 inches from the outside of the fuselage.

Side fuselage exit????

Robb's plane was a 727. What side exit?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on May 11, 2015, 11:37:16 PM
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Robb said he tumbled hard for about 15 seconds once he hit the slipstream, which occurred a few moments after he jumped.

Also, remember he was going at least 300 mph.

If jumping from the end of the aft stairs of a 727, you would hit the slipstream in no more than one second.  I believe the 300 MPH guy actually jumped from a side fuselage exit and he would be contacting the slipstream as soon as any part of his body was more than 3 or 4 inches from the outside of the fuselage.

Side fuselage exit????

Robb's plane was a 727. What side exit?

I believe the fellow who jumped over Indiana did so from a DC-10 and it was the one which was going 300 MPH.  The Captain added about another 100 MPH to the aircraft's speed at jump time just for the heck of it.  May as well give the hijacker some thrills.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 11, 2015, 11:59:47 PM
First I heard.

The Indiana guy was Marty McNally, and it was a 727.

Same with 300-MPG-Guy, Robb Heady, a 727. It was not flying dirty, like Cooper, and was having a normal take-off from Reno. Hence, an estimated 300-350 mph, 20 minutes after wheels up.

Side-Exit Guy might have Paul Cini, who is reported to have hijacked a DC-8, with its rear, side-exit hatch.  GG says it was a DC-9, but GG does get a fact wrong every now and then.....  Hence, I go with Koerner, Far Flung, and the newspapers who say a DC-8. BTW, Paulie never jumped, but if he did had, he would have run the risk of a body-strike against the elevators. 377 says a bunch of guys did that when they jumped an "8."
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on May 12, 2015, 12:14:09 AM
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Georger wrote:
Quote
Himmelsbach and Jerry Thomas are to NORJAK as Albert Einstein and Rutherford were to Physics, according to MR. Thomas!

I liken Jerry more to Hahn than Rutherford. http://harpers.org/archive/1998/11/the-radioactive-boy-scout/

I really enjoyed meeting Jerry and his wife Shelley at the Portland symposium. Despite all our strong disagreement about Cooper's chances of survival (Jerry saying low and me saying high) he greeted me warmly and we had a great time trading opposing views. He has more credentials than I do to opine as an expert, having been a Special Forces survival instructor, military parachutist etc. I have a lot more jumps than he does but every one was made over a DZ, not one night wilderness landing. He also knows the area over which Cooper jumped and I do not.

Still, I think the chances of Cooper landing alive were high.

377


Jerry is pretty solid on an easterly flight path, and a no pull....I spoke with Jerry several times last week, nice guy.

Did he explain why he has one flight path while the FBI/NWA/USAF has another??

As noted at DZ, he usually avoids the real questions -

For example, he never has explained if Himmelsbach is attached to an east path or how H adopted that stance, if in fact H ever adopted that stance. It may involve something Rataczak said about being 20 miles further east.. to H at H's retirement. All we get from JT is gobblewobble. JT has stated publicly 305 crossed the Columbia over the Troutdale airport - did you ask him about that? What did he say? 

 :D

Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: db cooper on May 12, 2015, 01:34:06 AM
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Can any of the people who have made deliberate water jumps answer these questions:

1.  Will a back pack or reserve pack, completely unopened, float by itself if it lands in water and is not attached to anything?

2.  If so, how long will it float under the above conditions?  It is understood that it will eventually get saturated with water and then sink.   

That's a great question.  I tend to think the chute packs and money bag would be negatively buoyant after the air is forced out of them.  The Cooper suspects body would probably be negatively buoyant also, because the impact would drive the air from his lungs and because of his body type.  It sounds like he didn't have much body fat, and muscle is about 3 time denser than fat, so in short, muscle tends to sink and fat tends to float.

We do need to find out if the chute packs are buoyant though.
minor point, and I'm not an expert, but I suspect the bolded part would depend on the orientation of the torso on impact. 

the cross section of your rib cage is roughly elliptical, as viewed along the vertical axis (i.e., in the direction parallel to your spine).  if you land flat on your back or front, then, I agree, the impact would force the air out of your lungs.  it further flattens that elliptical cross section, thus decreasing the volume of the lungs, and pressing the air out.  but if you land on your side, you squeeze the ellipse into a shape closer to circular, with larger cross sectional area, thus increasing the volume of the lungs, and sucking air in.

for an illustration of what I'm talking about that is of questionable merit and relevance but is at least adorable, read about the physical therapy treatments for flat chested kitten syndrome:   http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat-chested_kitten_syndrome

as to what happens when you impact with your head or feet, it seems complicated and hard to predict what effect there might be on air in your lungs. guessing it tends to reduce your lung volume, but depends on how much the intervening parts of the body absorb the shock (by being damaged...).  also in this case you're probably "piercing" the water like a diver, rather than "smacking" into it as you would in the other orientations, thus spreading out the deceleration in time and reducing the instantaneous force.

or, at least, that's how it all works when I picture it in my head.

     

Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on May 12, 2015, 02:29:26 AM
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Can any of the people who have made deliberate water jumps answer these questions:

1.  Will a back pack or reserve pack, completely unopened, float by itself if it lands in water and is not attached to anything?

2.  If so, how long will it float under the above conditions?  It is understood that it will eventually get saturated with water and then sink.   

That's a great question.  I tend to think the chute packs and money bag would be negatively buoyant after the air is forced out of them.  The Cooper suspects body would probably be negatively buoyant also, because the impact would drive the air from his lungs and because of his body type.  It sounds like he didn't have much body fat, and muscle is about 3 time denser than fat, so in short, muscle tends to sink and fat tends to float.

We do need to find out if the chute packs are buoyant though.
minor point, and I'm not an expert, but I suspect the bolded part would depend on the orientation of the torso on impact. 

the cross section of your rib cage is roughly elliptical, as viewed along the vertical axis (i.e., in the direction parallel to your spine).  if you land flat on your back or front, then, I agree, the impact would force the air out of your lungs.  it further flattens that elliptical cross section, thus decreasing the volume of the lungs, and pressing the air out.  but if you land on your side, you squeeze the ellipse into a shape closer to circular, with larger cross sectional area, thus increasing the volume of the lungs, and sucking air in.

for an illustration of what I'm talking about that is of questionable merit and relevance but is at least adorable, read about the physical therapy treatments for flat chested kitten syndrome:   http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat-chested_kitten_syndrome

as to what happens when you impact with your head or feet, it seems complicated and hard to predict what effect there might be on air in your lungs. guessing it tends to reduce your lung volume, but depends on how much the intervening parts of the body absorb the shock (by being damaged...).  also in this case you're probably "piercing" the water like a diver, rather than "smacking" into it as you would in the other orientations, thus spreading out the deceleration in time and reducing the instantaneous force.

or, at least, that's how it all works when I picture it in my head.

   

This was all discussed on DZ.

At terminal v the difference between water vs ground is negligible. The angle at which the body encountered water would make some difference ... but from the examples of people jumping off tall bridges etc.  death ensues in the vast majority of cases.

As for your anatomy lesson:  The body by weight is roughly 65% water; all organs are mostly fluids separated by thin cellular membranes.  When the body impacts something hard, that force is transferred to everything in the body cavity and everything from the walls of vessels to the walls of organs and cells can rupture. This happens in auto accidents all the time. At velocities like terminal v. that outcome is assured on a  massive scale.  At a terminal v impact, the whole internal cavity of the body would fill up with fluids including the lungs, so the question of whether there would be air left in the lungs or not, is a mute point!  The lungs as a viable structure would cease to exist!

The answer is all air would be expelled instantly and replaced by body fluids. The only air holding cavity would be the chest and abdominal cavity likely punctured by bones and bone fragments forced through the sack of the skin, then that cavity would fill up with water ... you get the picture.

The car crash that killed Princess Diana in 1997 was estimated to range somewhere between 70–100 g's. Her autopsy noted massive organ and connecting tissue damage, her lungs and chest cavity full of fluid and torn from the chest walls, and the g-force pulled the pulmonary artery from her heart.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: db cooper on May 12, 2015, 07:54:37 AM
interesting, thanks.

for the record, in case this wasn't clear, I wasn't entertaining some notion that someone hitting water (let alone ground) at terminal velocity has any chance of surviving, in any orientation.  I was just talking about how much air might be in the lungs for purposes of determining buoyancy...  but yes, I see how rupturing everything and letting fluid into the lungs makes it a moot point whether the lungs expand or contract on impact.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: 377 on May 12, 2015, 04:31:47 PM
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First I heard.

The Indiana guy was Marty McNally, and it was a 727.

Same with 300-MPG-Guy, Robb Heady, a 727. It was not flying dirty, like Cooper, and was having a normal take-off from Reno. Hence, an estimated 300-350 mph, 20 minutes after wheels up.

Side-Exit Guy might have Paul Cini, who is reported to have hijacked a DC-8, with its rear, side-exit hatch.  GG says it was a DC-9, but GG does get a fact wrong every now and then.....  Hence, I go with Koerner, Far Flung, and the newspapers who say a DC-8. BTW, Paulie never jumped, but if he did had, he would have run the risk of a body-strike against the elevators. 377 says a bunch of guys did that when they jumped an "8."

I think you misquoted me Bruce. No sport jumps were made from DC 8s AKAIK, but there have been plenty of horizontal stabilizer strikes from side exits done at high speeds from King Air 90s and other similarly configured jumpships.

How's the book selling?

377
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on May 12, 2015, 04:38:13 PM
Hello and please excuse my intrusion. Has anyone considered Carson or Stevenson ?  ;)
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 12, 2015, 04:46:30 PM
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Hello and please excuse my intrusion. Has anyone considered Carson or Stevenson ?  ;)


Welcome NJ71, can you be a little more specific about those names?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 12, 2015, 04:57:07 PM
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First I heard.

The Indiana guy was Marty McNally, and it was a 727.

Same with 300-MPG-Guy, Robb Heady, a 727. It was not flying dirty, like Cooper, and was having a normal take-off from Reno. Hence, an estimated 300-350 mph, 20 minutes after wheels up.

Side-Exit Guy might have Paul Cini, who is reported to have hijacked a DC-8, with its rear, side-exit hatch.  GG says it was a DC-9, but GG does get a fact wrong every now and then.....  Hence, I go with Koerner, Far Flung, and the newspapers who say a DC-8. BTW, Paulie never jumped, but if he did had, he would have run the risk of a body-strike against the elevators. 377 says a bunch of guys did that when they jumped an "8."

I think you misquoted me Bruce. No sport jumps were made from DC 8s AKAIK, but there have been plenty of horizontal stabilizer strikes from side exits done at high speeds from King Air 90s and other similarly configured jumpships.

How's the book selling?

377

30 copies sold at last counting.  But where's my royalty check?!

Gotcha on the DC-8 and King side exits. I had misunderstood your comments back when...
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on May 12, 2015, 05:04:54 PM
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First I heard.

The Indiana guy was Marty McNally, and it was a 727.

Same with 300-MPG-Guy, Robb Heady, a 727. It was not flying dirty, like Cooper, and was having a normal take-off from Reno. Hence, an estimated 300-350 mph, 20 minutes after wheels up.

Side-Exit Guy might have Paul Cini, who is reported to have hijacked a DC-8, with its rear, side-exit hatch.  GG says it was a DC-9, but GG does get a fact wrong every now and then.....  Hence, I go with Koerner, Far Flung, and the newspapers who say a DC-8. BTW, Paulie never jumped, but if he did had, he would have run the risk of a body-strike against the elevators. 377 says a bunch of guys did that when they jumped an "8."

I think you misquoted me Bruce. No sport jumps were made from DC 8s AKAIK, but there have been plenty of horizontal stabilizer strikes from side exits done at high speeds from King Air 90s and other similarly configured jumpships.

How's the book selling?

377

30 copies sold at last counting.  But where's my royalty check?!

Gotcha on the DC-8 and King side exits. I had misunderstood your comments back when...

 Book Discussion About DB Cooper

Started by Shutter « 1 2 3 4 »
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on May 12, 2015, 05:37:07 PM
I'm sorry, Carson and Stevenson Washington. Meaning "Mr.Cooper's" destination.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 12, 2015, 05:48:46 PM
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I'm sorry, Carson and Stevenson Washington. Meaning "Mr.Cooper's" destination.


Do you realize how far off the flight path those area's are?

Do you mean where he ended up?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on May 12, 2015, 06:01:50 PM
That's exactly what and where i mean. With all do respect, do you think once he touched down that he stayed in the LZ ? Or went back in the direction of most resistance?.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 12, 2015, 06:06:37 PM
What would give the idea of those area's you mentioned? do you have someone in mind?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on May 12, 2015, 06:16:59 PM
I must first say i did not join this forum to induce clouded trickery or fantasy goose chase's. With that being said yes, many reasons to look especially in Carson.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 12, 2015, 06:20:45 PM
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I must first say i did not join this forum to induce clouded trickery or fantasy goose chase's. With that being said yes, many reasons to look especially in Carson.


That's fine, but I would like to hear what you have to say. I'm open to anything new. someone else has mentioned this area before, so it's interesting to see it pop up again.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on May 12, 2015, 07:02:20 PM
Between washougal and Carson are very important a areas in this case that has been grossly overlooked.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on May 12, 2015, 07:09:29 PM
The state police did show a small presence at the time of the event, but focused the main attention to the West and North. Which was a blessing for"Mr.Cooper" and made Carson a safehouse.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 12, 2015, 11:33:36 PM
Why would Carson be a "safehouse". I'm thinking Cooper could of changed out of his clothes and blended in where ever he was? 
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 13, 2015, 04:11:57 AM
Carson, Washington, and Stevenson, Washington are neighboring towns in the Columbia Gorge, about 30 miles east of Vancouver.  I didn't know, so I had to Google them. Hence, I am posting that information here as a courtesy to those who might also be wondering.

So, Night-Guy, let's hear the whole story!
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on May 13, 2015, 06:39:56 AM
Cooper did not change his clothes right away. On the 26th a report was given to State Police by a High School aged girl that there was a man sitting on the side of the grocery store in a dirty suit that was torn badly and muddy. The report was never checked into and was brushed off as a vagrant.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 13, 2015, 06:44:35 PM
can this report be verified, or is this something that has been said over the years?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on May 13, 2015, 09:00:12 PM
I can not speak for the State Police, but do to the lack of interest on the original report i highly doubt any documents were officially filed. This has been verified by the now 61yr old woman who made the report at age 17 and verified by me.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 13, 2015, 09:06:18 PM
Ok, so, are we implying he lost the money and was basically stuck in the area, and only seen once, or was afraid to spend the money?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on May 13, 2015, 09:26:07 PM
Obviously he did not lose all the money and laying low for awhile was also obvious, but he was where he wanted to be at that point and time. This event was better planned than you will ever know.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 13, 2015, 09:36:22 PM
How exactly are you coming to these conclusions. it appears you have the whole story?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on May 13, 2015, 09:41:36 PM
The problem is this, from day 1 everyone has been playing an endless game of follow the leader. Your hashing over the same worthless, dried up information that has produced nothing. Hell, you probably have crossed paths with "Mr.Cooper" and not even known it ;)
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 13, 2015, 09:44:00 PM
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The problem is this, from day 1 everyone has been playing an endless game of follow the leader. Your hashing over the same worthless, dried up information that has produced nothing. Hell, you probably have crossed paths with "Mr.Cooper" and not even known it ;)


well, we are willing to explore new things, so the lastest thing seems to be you. I mentioned before I'm open to anything new....
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on May 13, 2015, 09:48:55 PM
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The problem is this, from day 1 everyone has been playing an endless game of follow the leader. Your hashing over the same worthless, dried up information that has produced nothing. Hell, you probably have crossed paths with "Mr.Cooper" and not even known it ;)

Well it is great to know that someone has all the answers.  Welcome aboard.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on May 13, 2015, 10:08:19 PM
As a matter of fact i do have answers. Is that not what you have been wanting or is this just a hobby for you to pass the time ?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 13, 2015, 10:24:38 PM
71, of course we would like to find a conclusion to this, so hopefully you will shed some light on this. we have seen others make this claim, so it isn't really something new, so to speak. I'm sure everyone here would like to hear what you have to say.

You have the floor my friend....
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 13, 2015, 10:46:28 PM
HOBBY?

Night-Guy, I'm a professional writer and DB Cooper researcher.  I spent eight years developing my book on Cooper, and now I'm in the process of marketing it and working with film companies on documentaries. So I ain't playing games. Are you? You seem coy, giving us bits and pieces. Even if factual, such cat and mouse behavior is annoying.

So please, put up or shut up.

But, if you're a bit bashful and this forum is a tad too public, you can always call me or email. If you ask, I'll post my contact info or Shut can give it to you.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on May 13, 2015, 10:51:55 PM
Mr. Smith, seems you need a good ole fashion ass whooping! Go blow your self righteous gas else where!
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 13, 2015, 10:55:20 PM
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Mr. Smith, seems you need a good ole fashion ass whooping! Go blow your self righteous gas else where!


Ok, you both have made your statements. lets keep on track of the discussion and try and move forward...
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on May 13, 2015, 10:57:16 PM
 :PNone of your suspects are "Cooper", but one played a very important role in this event. Good evening Gentleman and Mr.Smith.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 13, 2015, 11:01:23 PM
I hope this is not "where Cooper came out of the woods"
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Parrotheadvol on May 13, 2015, 11:07:00 PM
I've highly suspected for the last two days that this was, "where Cooper walked out of the woods".
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 13, 2015, 11:48:49 PM
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I've highly suspected for the last two days that this was, "where Cooper walked out of the woods".


well, he's got a chance to tell his story, so lets see how it unfolds. he's more than welcome to post it here. we discuss Cooper here, so lets see if this is really about Cooper.....none of us should be here anyway. Paul solved the case on 6/13/2013  :o :o
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: db cooper on May 14, 2015, 01:08:32 AM
my next noob question (and I hope this is the right thread for it):

can someone provide or link to the executive summary of argument(s) that cooper probably didn't (or even couldn't have) survived the jump, and being out in the rough terrain in the cold, rainy night.  iiuc, that is the fbi's position.

I know nothing about skydiving and parachutes.  my naive sense is that he had a parachute on, he presumably pulled the ripcord....soooo....  where's the problem?   I am prepared to have that thinking blasted to hell though. 

as far as surviving in the elements that night, after a successful landing, i have some relevant background, and I don't find it so hard to believe that someone with some knowledge could have made it.  especially if he had checked the weather forecast and worn long Johns under that suit.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on May 14, 2015, 01:32:57 AM
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my next noob question (and I hope this is the right thread for it):

can someone provide or link to the executive summary of argument(s) that cooper probably didn't (or even couldn't have) survived the jump, and being out in the rough terrain in the cold, rainy night.  iiuc, that is the fbi's position.

I know nothing about skydiving and parachutes.  my naive sense is that he had a parachute on, he presumably pulled the ripcord....soooo....  where's the problem?   I am prepared to have that thinking blasted to hell though. 

as far as surviving in the elements that night, after a successful landing, i have some relevant background, and I don't find it so hard to believe that someone with some knowledge could have made it.  especially if he had checked the weather forecast and worn long Johns under that suit.

The 'executive summary' socalled comes primarily from FBI agents Himmelsbach, Tosaw, and Carr - with a little backup- help from the rigging master Cossey who claimed that the chute he rigged and Cooper chose had a peculiar two-step hard pull only an experienced jumper could have activated (a claim later debunked ?). Members of the Boeing Skydiving Club and other professional skydivers were the consultants for the FBI's assessment.

Points are:
1. Cooper demonstrated no skydiving knowledge or skills commensurate with jumping from a jet doing 200mph.
2. Was not dressed to make a jump from a jet at 10,000 feet or survive the weather conditions. Would have lost his shoes in the jump. Method of tying off the money would have knocked him out and/or resulted in a unsurvivable tumble.
3. Jumped in remote hostile terrain not suitable for a safe landing or safe-easy trip out.
4. Probably didn't get the chute open. 
5. His assessed profile fails to meet the 'McCoy' standard for skills or survivability: 'He knew just enough to get into trouble but not enough to pull off the jump' - this is the standard SA Carr cited.

Have I forgotten anything?

 ;)   
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 14, 2015, 02:52:16 AM
Cooper was a No-Pull Addendum

1. Used the dummy chute for his reserve.
2. Probably tied the reserve to the container with difficult-to-tie 550 parachute cord.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 14, 2015, 02:53:22 AM
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my next noob question (and I hope this is the right thread for it):

can someone provide...I know nothing about skydiving and parachutes....

Fair enough, Nightie-nite. Perhaps this might be helpful:

There is an extensive description of the parachutes cited by Cossey, Hayden, and the FBI in my book, DB Cooper and the FBI - A Case Study of America's Only Unsolved Skyjacking. Have you read it? Would you like me to post the relevant sections?

I have also written extensively on the Cooper parachute issues on the Mountain News. Have you read those pieces? Can I help clarify anything?

How can we best help you understand the Cooper jump?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 14, 2015, 03:05:42 AM
Confusion Alert!

Is db cooper and Nightjumper71 the same person? Their posts seem interchangeable, and I am certainly thinking of them as one-and-the-same person. Am I correct in that linkage?

Also, does anyone else hear the distant chimes of Skyjack71 ringing here????

Or am I just watching too much Netflix?

Anyway, when I first went to college I was the Class of '71.  Maybe I should change my moniker to Lehighdropout'71!

BTW: Nimi - that was as close to a frat as I got! Kappa Alpha invited me to ONE rush dinner, and that was it!
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 14, 2015, 03:19:17 AM
A question, slightly off-topic:

Can anyone explain to me how an Amtrak electric train reached 106 mph minutes after leaving the 30th St Station in Philly when it had to go through three hair-pin turns in downtown before it hit Dead-Man's Curve?

I used to ride trains in the City of Brotherly Love with some frequency back in my Lehgihdropout'71 days, and I never saw an Amtrak train do more than 50, and that was downhill on a straightaway. I'm not gonna have to start another conspiracy investigation, am !?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on May 14, 2015, 04:16:39 AM
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Cooper was a No-Pull Addendum

1. Used the dummy chute for his reserve.
2. Probably tied the reserve to the container with difficult-to-tie 550 parachute cord.

Why would he tie the reserve cute to the money container which was tied around his waste?

Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 14, 2015, 05:58:29 AM
Quote
Is db cooper and Nightjumper71 the same person? Their posts seem interchangeable, and I am certainly thinking of them as one-and-the-same person. Am I correct in that linkage?

Not according to the IP's, but who knows with that one these days. lets listen to what NJ71 has to say.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on May 14, 2015, 06:22:55 AM
Gentlemen i assure you i am not any of these other people who you have mentioned. My avatar and my user name are very significant to myself. I apologize if I have taken someone else's name on this forum and will change it if you wish. I felt very disrespected by Mr.Smith's comment's. He must hold great weight in this forum to feel comfortable enough to speak to as he does. I will be happy to share what i, but I already feel your minds are made up.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 14, 2015, 06:32:34 AM
Bruce doesn't speak for everyone here. if you believe that then I don't know what to tell you, but people raise some concerns which sometimes happen when things are said surrounding this case.

I mentioned this before, you have the floor. let him tell his story before any conclusion are drawn...

Shutter



Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on May 14, 2015, 08:24:58 AM
Mr.Shutter, if i may request let's approach this as a Q&A. You ask me anything you like and i will answer it truthfully. If i do not have any information on a asked question i will say so. I do not like the terminology "story". To me this word means fantasy or making something up.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: db cooper on May 14, 2015, 09:44:16 AM
no, I am not the same person as night jumper 71.  we did join the same day, and both made basically the same bad joke in our choices of screen name ("lol, maybe I'm really cooper, lol!"), so I can understand people suspecting one or both of us is a sock puppet by the same person.  but we aren't.  as to our posts being "indistinguishable", i hope that is not true, and do not even see what they have in common.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: MarkBennett on May 14, 2015, 02:46:13 PM
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Mr.Shutter, if i may request let's approach this as a Q&A. You ask me anything you like and i will answer it truthfully. If i do not have any information on a asked question i will say so. I do not like the terminology "story". To me this word means fantasy or making something up.

Hi, NJ71,

That feels a bit like "20 questions".  Would you lay out a brief synopsis of your take on what happened and then we'll ping with you questions?  Perhaps Shutter would be willing to create a separate thread for it.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on May 14, 2015, 02:57:53 PM
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Mr.Shutter, if i may request let's approach this as a Q&A. You ask me anything you like and i will answer it truthfully. If i do not have any information on a asked question i will say so. I do not like the terminology "story". To me this word means fantasy or making something up.

Hi, NJ71,

That feels a bit like "20 questions".  Would you lay out a brief synopsis of your take on what happened and then we'll ping with you questions?  Perhaps Shutter would be willing to create a separate thread for it.

.... still waiting  ...   will this take more than five years?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 14, 2015, 04:28:06 PM
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Cooper was a No-Pull Addendum

1. Used the dummy chute for his reserve.
2. Probably tied the reserve to the container with difficult-to-tie 550 parachute cord.

Why would he tie the reserve cute to the money container which was tied around his waste?

I believe the argument was that the reserve chute was tied with rope to the NB-6/ NB-8 frame, aka the "container."
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on May 14, 2015, 05:26:15 PM
Georger i apologize for my delay in replying. Unfortunately even at my age i work 10-12hr days. I do not have the luxury of sitting behind a computer all day with cheese puff stained fingers awaiting timely responses. When i get home this evening i will be sure to reply ASAP.... or within the 5yr time limit you proposed.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 14, 2015, 07:22:16 PM
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Mr.Shutter, if i may request let's approach this as a Q&A. You ask me anything you like and i will answer it truthfully. If i do not have any information on a asked question i will say so. I do not like the terminology "story". To me this word means fantasy or making something up.


Ok, does this ring a bell?

        "I have a question that hopefully you can shed some light on or maybe you didn't even know about this report. Did you know an 18yr old girl (in 1971) told the general store keeper in Carson Washington that there was a large man sitting behind the store with an injured leg & looked very beaten up. She had a short conversation with this man. xxxx I THINK i have a found this woman & hope to talk to her in the next day or so."
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on May 14, 2015, 09:21:14 PM
No that statement does not ring a bell, but obviously is very close to my statement. "Cooper" was not a large man and had no visible injuries, just very dirty and torn clothing.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on May 14, 2015, 09:39:30 PM
It is obvious someone else on this forum has spoken with this lady in Carson, so this goes to prove i am not falsifying my statements. Rather strange though ?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 15, 2015, 12:08:34 AM
And you think you have trouble with my attitude, NJ-71?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 15, 2015, 12:14:35 AM
Carson, WA Re-Cap

In 1971, a 17-year-old girl talked with a large man wearing torn, dirty clothes leaning up against the rear wall of a small-town grocery store. This woman is now 60-years old, and NJ-71 believes she may have talked with DB Cooper.

In addition, Shut has heard a nearly identical story from a second source

Do I have the story correct, so far?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on May 15, 2015, 03:55:34 AM
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Carson, WA Re-Cap

In 1971, a 17-year-old girl talked with a large man wearing torn, dirty clothes leaning up against the rear wall of a small-town grocery store. This woman is now 60-years old, and NJ-71 believes she may have talked with DB Cooper.

In addition, Shut has heard a nearly identical story from a second source

Do I have the story correct, so far?

The words muddy, suit, mid forties, barefoot, and 'called the State Patrol'  .... figure in this story somewhere, so far.

Calling all cars: ask Himmelsbach.

 :-*
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 15, 2015, 06:18:53 AM
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It is obvious someone else on this forum has spoken with this lady in Carson, so this goes to prove i am not falsifying my statements. Rather strange though ?


Nobody from this forum has made any contact with this woman.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on May 15, 2015, 06:28:00 AM
Gentleman, all this double talk has me very confused. I never mentioned "A man in his 40s" or where on the outside of the store he was positioned? And to the person that emailed me, No i do not know who the woman you are speaking of ? >:(
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: db cooper on May 15, 2015, 12:18:02 PM
next general noob question:
how significant is it that (other than the Tina bar find) none of the money has ever turned up?

if cooper had survived and spent the money, would we expect some bank somewhere to have found one of the bills?  I know the serial numbers were made public, and banks were told to look out for them.  but, while I don't know exactly how this worked, I can't imagine it was that complete of a dragnet.  i certainly doubt every teller in the country was checking every bill they handled.  and even if they were in '71 and '72, there's no way they're still doing it (though, post 1995 or so, it becomes easier to imagine this being done electronically....?)

on the other hand, it was a large sum of money.  so if cooper spent it, and then it got spent by others, and then spent by still others, you'd expect it disperse over time, for more people to handle the cooper money, and for the odds of someone catching a bill to go up.

so, again, what's the executive summary on arguments about this?  I'll take a link to one if it already exists.  though I'll also accept another one of George's good posts, if he doesn't mind doing the work!
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on May 15, 2015, 12:35:09 PM
I'm sure my comment will spark some great feedback, but the money was kept "On Ice" until late 1973. And your absolutely correct about not everyone checking for the bills. Frankly no one really cared except the FBI and their hopes faded shortly thereafter too. Ok Gentlemen, let's hear it!
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: EVickiW on May 15, 2015, 02:27:47 PM
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I'm sure my comment will spark some great feedback, but the money was kept "On Ice" until late 1973. And your absolutely correct about not everyone checking for the bills. Frankly no one really cared except the FBI and their hopes faded shortly thereafter too. Ok Gentlemen, let's hear it!

Hi Nightjumper71...

Just put it out there. What do you want to convey to us. Tell us what you know.

I am not into drama and the building up of suspense. I am sure others here do not want to play that game also. Like you, I work during the day.  I also have an extensive social life.  ;D

So....I will check in later to read all about your conclusions to what happened Thanksgiving weekend 1971 and beyond.....

Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 15, 2015, 03:52:58 PM
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I'm sure my comment will spark some great feedback, but the money was kept "On Ice" until late 1973. And your absolutely correct about not everyone checking for the bills. Frankly no one really cared except the FBI and their hopes faded shortly thereafter too. Ok Gentlemen, let's hear it!

Oh, goodie! Cold cash really tickles me. Please more teases!!!

- Lehighdropout'71
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on May 15, 2015, 04:37:01 PM
Alright Gentlemen, the facts and you can take them and twist them until it to is "just another story".
Facts:
Touched down Merwin Dam
Picked up in Yale
Dropped off in Washougal
Train to just south of Stevenso, stayed 1 day.
Walked to Carson, stayed a day and a half.
Picked up, crossed into Oregon via route 35.
Destination Eugene Oregon.
Returned to Washougal in August 1973 to retrieve cash.
Returned to Eugene and never left.

There is what happened, now screw it up royal boys!
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on May 15, 2015, 04:44:56 PM
My assessment of Mr.Smith and never meeting him...Over weight pin head in his 50s? Has extreme tiny guy syndrome. Probably lives in mommy's basement or old mobile home. Probably never made over 40k a year and girl's think he smells like hog dung. Bet im damn close !
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: EVickiW on May 15, 2015, 04:55:51 PM
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Alright Gentlemen, the facts and you can take them and twist them until it to is "just another story".
Facts:
Touched down Merwin Dam
Picked up in Yale
Dropped off in Washougal
Train to just south of Stevenso, stayed 1 day.
Walked to Carson, stayed a day and a half.
Picked up, crossed into Oregon via route 35.
Destination Eugene Oregon.
Returned to Washougal in August 1973 to retrieve cash.
Returned to Eugene and never left.

There is what happened, now screw it up royal boys!

No reason for the "gentlemen" to screw up anything. Tell us how you came to these conclusions.
Again...your post is riddled with drama and teases.
I do have a few questions.
How do you know that this is how it went down?
Have you contacted the FBI? If so, what was their reply?
Do you have any proof of your allegations?

Thank you,
From one of the "ladies" of the group.


Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on May 15, 2015, 05:36:28 PM
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Alright Gentlemen, the facts and you can take them and twist them until it to is "just another story".
Facts:
Touched down Merwin Dam
Picked up in Yale
Dropped off in Washougal
Train to just south of Stevenso, stayed 1 day.
Walked to Carson, stayed a day and a half.
Picked up, crossed into Oregon via route 35.
Destination Eugene Oregon.
Returned to Washougal in August 1973 to retrieve cash.
Returned to Eugene and never left.

There is what happened, now screw it up royal boys!

No reason for the "gentlemen" to screw up anything. Tell us how you came to these conclusions.
Again...your post is riddled with drama and teases.
I do have a few questions.
How do you know that this is how it went down?
Have you contacted the FBI? If so, what was their reply?
Do you have any proof of your allegations?

Thank you,
From one of the "ladies" of the group.

Well ... it strikes me as somebody weaving a bunch of loose threads & anecdotes together to make a tapestry. Is it real? Probably not. For one thing this is another 'Eugene theory'. That much is clear. Validation for a possible connection to Eugene goes way back (over at DZ). Obviously the poster was lurking or posting at DZ. The elements of his story reprise previous claims or speculations dropped by various people over the years. What is new is someone suggesting a connection between these extraneous 'factoids'. Very likely the next claim will be a money plant in 1980 at Tina bar .... by the guy living at Eugene with drug connections to Portland.

Then a book or a tv show!  8) ;D ;D ;D ;D

What goes around comes around.

 :)

 
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on May 15, 2015, 05:45:41 PM
I really do not understand why you Gentleman are being so sarcastic to me? Did your Uncle/Daddy ruin your life with those late night visits? Come on, grow up, present yourselves as men !
Now, i did not need to come to any conclusions, i know the facts. No, why would i call the FBI? Lot's of factors that no one needs to know. He was not a violent man. He lived in peace and never bothered anyone ever again. I told you I would the the truth and thats what I did now your not willing to accept that.Ask a civilized question and i will gladly answer you.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on May 15, 2015, 05:50:31 PM
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I really do not understand why you Gentleman are being so sarcastic to me? Did your Uncle/Daddy ruin your life with those late night visits? Come on, grow up, present yourselves as men !
Now, i did not need to come to any conclusions, i know the facts. No, why would i call the FBI? Lot's of factors that no one needs to know. He was not a violent man. He lived in peace and never bothered anyone ever again. I told you I would the the truth and thats what I did now your not willing to accept that.Ask a civilized question and i will gladly answer you.

Well that was quick - instantaneous! Have you been sitting here all day waiting for something to reply to?

Instead why dont you wind out your theory as Vicki suggests ... and spare us your longwinded morality tale!


Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: EVickiW on May 15, 2015, 05:59:42 PM
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I really do not understand why you Gentleman are being so sarcastic to me? Did your Uncle/Daddy ruin your life with those late night visits? Come on, grow up, present yourselves as men !
Now, i did not need to come to any conclusions, i know the facts. No, why would i call the FBI? Lot's of factors that no one needs to know. He was not a violent man. He lived in peace and never bothered anyone ever again. I told you I would the the truth and thats what I did now your not willing to accept that.Ask a civilized question and i will gladly answer you.


I do not appreciate your attitude in this forum...Put up..or shut the _____ up.

I also do not appreciate your candor.  When it comes to my "father", he has been missing since September 1971. Are you referring to pedophilia or incest? Do you think that is a joke?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03QLnFvk8Fs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhjSnvlzG0w

So if you are here to tease and speculate, I personally am not interested. If you have concrete solid information and you are not to afraid to tell, then I would be interested. You see I am here speculating that Cooper could be my father. I you have a suspect and it can be proven, then my family will put this theory to rest.

So..the challenge is in your court.  Are you going to act like a "man"?

Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: MarkBennett on May 15, 2015, 06:09:42 PM
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I really do not understand why you Gentleman are being so sarcastic to me? Did your Uncle/Daddy ruin your life with those late night visits? Come on, grow up, present yourselves as men !
Now, i did not need to come to any conclusions, i know the facts. No, why would i call the FBI? Lot's of factors that no one needs to know. He was not a violent man. He lived in peace and never bothered anyone ever again. I told you I would the the truth and thats what I did now your not willing to accept that.Ask a civilized question and i will gladly answer you.

...and the real name of DB Cooper is?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on May 15, 2015, 06:54:57 PM
Are you people really this stupid? Teasing ? I told you what happened and where he went! Take it or leave I do not give a rats @$$! You all are so narrow minded it is comical! And if he was your dad..... we are related. Thats all im saying about that. And you people emailing me, say it to the whole forum, are you hiding something !?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on May 15, 2015, 06:59:03 PM
That man in the poster is not "Cooper", sorry.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: EVickiW on May 15, 2015, 07:41:28 PM
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Are you people really this stupid? Teasing ? I told you what happened and where he went! Take it or leave I do not give a rats @$$! You all are so narrow minded it is comical! And if he was your dad..... we are related. Thats all im saying about that. And you people emailing me, say it to the whole forum, are you hiding something !?

Again...put up or shut up! 

If you want to name call, tease and disrupt you can politely go away. I have a feeling polite is not in your vocabulary. What are you hiding? Do you read what you write before you hit "post"? Do you even realize how you come across?

Questions? there are your questions...that is what you wanted. You did not tell us anything.  Do you realize that people are affected by your words? As for you dismissing my father as Cooper, unless you solve the case with the FBI.......I call your story.......fiction. Your move......

I hope you have a pleasant weekend and people treat you, and talk to you, the way you treat and talk to others.  :o
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 15, 2015, 08:34:28 PM
Ok, I've read the comments again. I will be removing the last two comments here, and issuing a warning to nightjumper71.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on May 15, 2015, 08:53:13 PM
I will offer an apology to EvikiW. That's not who i am, but my melt down point is being called a liar. You should understand more so than the rest if you believe"Cooper" is your father, why i did not and will not call the FBI on a family member even knowing he has passed. I hope you find true closure. If you would like me to leave this forum I will do so, but i refuse to disrupt his living family members at this point.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 15, 2015, 08:56:43 PM
Nightjumper71, you seem to be stirring the pot pretty well for being on this forum for a couple days.

Quote
My assessment of Mr.Smith and never meeting him...Over weight pin head in his 50s? Has extreme tiny guy syndrome. Probably lives in mommy's basement or old mobile home. Probably never made over 40k a year and girl's think he smells like hog dung. Bet im damn close !

This is not Facebook. If I see another comment like the one above, you will be removed from this forum. do I make myself clear?

You are making some rather strong claims, and you need to put some validation into these statements. If I want to hear another story I can easily look up the Kenny Christiansen saga.


Questions have been asked...

I expect you to return with a positive attitude, and answer questions. some of the members might of been a little hard on you, but returning fire with personal attacks will not be tolerated. consider this fair warning my friend.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on May 15, 2015, 09:14:46 PM
I'm way to busy for Facebook and to old. I was not the first to attack, Mr.Smith was if you reread postings. He was not warned ? My claims are valid and have been confirmed. I'm watching what say because i was informed via email that a certain person on here is a small time journalist with a lawyer buddy that loves starting trouble.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 15, 2015, 09:37:09 PM
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I'm way to busy for Facebook and to old. I was not the first to attack, Mr.Smith was if you reread postings. He was not warned ? My claims are valid and have been confirmed. I'm watching what say because i was informed via email that a certain person on here is a small time journalist with a lawyer buddy that loves starting trouble.

So, now you want to argue with me? I just read Bruce's comments to you, and I don't see anything remotely close to your comments. in fact, right after the comments between the two of you in the beginning I warned both of you!

"Ok, you both have made your statements. lets keep on track of the discussion and try and move forward."

This discussion is over....

Shutter
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 15, 2015, 09:49:14 PM
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next general noob question:
how significant is it that (other than the Tina bar find) none of the money has ever turned up?

if cooper had survived and spent the money, would we expect some bank somewhere to have found one of the bills?  I know the serial numbers were made public, and banks were told to look out for them.  but, while I don't know exactly how this worked, I can't imagine it was that complete of a dragnet.  i certainly doubt every teller in the country was checking every bill they handled.  and even if they were in '71 and '72, there's no way they're still doing it (though, post 1995 or so, it becomes easier to imagine this being done electronically....?)

on the other hand, it was a large sum of money.  so if cooper spent it, and then it got spent by others, and then spent by still others, you'd expect it disperse over time, for more people to handle the cooper money, and for the odds of someone catching a bill to go up.

so, again, what's the executive summary on arguments about this?  I'll take a link to one if it already exists.  though I'll also accept another one of George's good posts, if he doesn't mind doing the work!


Sorry to keep you hanging DB Cooper. as far as I know every 20 that came into banks was not checked, they would of been looking for large amounts. it was to much work checking every 20 in every bank across the country.

I can find you some links, but you might want to read out Tina Bar thread for starters....
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: nmiwrecks on May 15, 2015, 10:32:23 PM
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Alright Gentlemen, the facts and you can take them and twist them until it to is "just another story".
Facts:
Touched down Merwin Dam
Picked up in Yale
Dropped off in Washougal
Train to just south of Stevenso, stayed 1 day.
Walked to Carson, stayed a day and a half.
Picked up, crossed into Oregon via route 35.
Destination Eugene Oregon.
Returned to Washougal in August 1973 to retrieve cash.
Returned to Eugene and never left.

There is what happened, now screw it up royal boys!
Intriguing.  How did part of the ransom end up at Tena Bar?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 15, 2015, 10:39:23 PM
How is that not "just another story"







Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on May 16, 2015, 12:25:42 AM
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Alright Gentlemen, the facts and you can take them and twist them until it to is "just another story".
Facts:
Touched down Merwin Dam
Picked up in Yale
Dropped off in Washougal
Train to just south of Stevenso, stayed 1 day.
Walked to Carson, stayed a day and a half.
Picked up, crossed into Oregon via route 35.
Destination Eugene Oregon.
Returned to Washougal in August 1973 to retrieve cash.
Returned to Eugene and never left.

There is what happened, now screw it up royal boys!
Intriguing.  How did part of the ransom end up at Tena Bar?

Returned to Eugene and never left.

Poster is well read enough to incorporate Eugene in his tale. Eugene is of course pivotal in several chapters of the Cooper story.

~Tina at Eugene.
~Duane's friend alleged to live at Eugene. (Jo Weber)
~LD association with Eugene. (Marla)
~Mitchell says the FBI showed him a lot of pictures, mostly of people by agents out of the Eugene office.
~other Eugene references not commonly known or posted ...

Hmmm. The poster was paying attention. He noted Eugene linkage and uses it as a key element in his fiction.  ;) 

Conclusion: Cooper returns to his homebase Eugene OR and lives happily ever after. All things revolve around Eugene - a Camelot perhaps in the Cooper saga. Otherwise poster needs to show some proof for his assertions above.


Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: MarkBennett on May 16, 2015, 02:19:06 AM
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I'm way to busy for Facebook and to old. I was not the first to attack, Mr.Smith was if you reread postings. He was not warned ? My claims are valid and have been confirmed. I'm watching what say because i was informed via email that a certain person on here is a small time journalist with a lawyer buddy that loves starting trouble.

NJ71,
I think the issue I'm having here is the same we have other people with preferred suspects.  They know someone who told them they were Cooper.  Or, they know someone who told them someone else was Cooper.  There was even one case where someone's shocked reaction to the suggestion of someone being Cooper was enough to convince him his suspect was Cooper.  They all believe their suspect is valid and confirmed.  We even have one who insists the FBI told him he solved the case.

You also believe that about your suspect.  But, you don't want to reveal the name.  Do you want to reveal HOW your suspect is "valid and confirmed"?  If you don't, I'm having a hard time figuring out what your angle is.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 16, 2015, 04:28:35 AM
Cooper in Carson Re-Cap, II

As I understand NJ-71, here is the latest:

1. DB Cooper landed in the Merwin Dam area successfully, then walked about ten miles east to Yale, WA.

2. In or around Yale, an unnamed individual(s) drove DB Cooper twenty miles south to Washougal, where the skyjacker buried the money, got on a train, freight most likely since passenger service is non-existent, I believe.

3. DB Cooper traveled about 30 miles to Carson, where he disembarked and walked to the next town, Stevenson, about five miles away. There he was spotted by a 17-year old girl - now 60 - who talked to him in the vicinity of a grocery store.  NJ-71 is now looking for this witness.

4. Some time afterwards, another individual or the same as in Yale, drove DB Cooper to Eugene along Rte 35. How far is unknown as Carson is on the Columbia River. Eventually DB Cooper traveled about 120 miles south by unknown means to Eugene, Oregon .

5. DB Cooper returned to the money in August 1973, dug it up, and returned to Eugene, which is kind of a psychic center for DB Cooper principals - the skyjacker himself, plus his two primary witnesses Tina Mucklow and Bill Mitchell. Later, the "most promising" suspect LD Cooper joined the gang, dying in Dale Miller's (aka Santa Claus) half-way house for felons and wayward lads out by the airport, circa 1999. DB Cooper remains in Eugene until the present day, along with Tina, who doesn't live too far away in Springfield, but works in Eugene. DB Cooper has kept his nose clean ever since 1971, but now NJ-71 is unleashing the Forces of Justice to return once more to comb the streets of Eugene looking for traces of Norjak.

6. NJ-71 says he doesn't want to tell us the name of DB Cooper because he doesn't want to upset his family.

7. NJ-71 states that at least one, and probably two individuals, drove DB Cooper, so we are looking for additional witnesses to talk with.

NJ-71, can we have the names of these individuals so we can confirm your account of DB Cooper?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 16, 2015, 04:42:30 AM
Cousin Brucie's personal hygiene, Update:

Once again, Da Cuz' body odor, physical size and other characteristics are being assessed.  As I did on the DZ, I am providing an update to clear the air, so to speak.

1. Since I am Lehighdropout'71, that means I was 22 when Coop jumped. That means 43 years later I am now 65. I am currently 50 pounds overweight (240 lbs). Cardiac doc wants me down to 180, which is fucking crazy. I would be happy to be the same weight as when I dropped out of Lehigh University in 1970, which was about 190.

2. As for body odors, we had a survey at the DZ about two years ago and EVicki said I didn't stink then, and I haven't taken any fewers showers since then, so I think I'm okay.

3. As for my sex life, well, the last few women I asked on a date complained that I was too poor, which is similar to what my second ex-wife said as we were discussing our future. Her exact quote was: "If you'd had 50K in the bank, I'd stay. I'm tired of living like a hippie." Also, and I admit this, my narcissistic tendencies tend to keep women away.

4. As for mommies, I acknowledge that I have Mommy issues. I wanted to move back to Mom's house in NY two years ago, but she refused to allow me. As a result, I had to stay in my 16-foot RV trailer, where I've been for the past fourteen years.

5. My earning power never reached 40K. 34K was my best. Currently, I am awaiting a $150 royalty check from Amazon for the 30 Cooper books sold since March.

6. As for Tiny Guy Syndrome, I'm not sure what that is exactly, but my current behavioral health diagnosis is more along the lines of Axis II, with a focus on anger and grief.

Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 16, 2015, 04:44:21 AM
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... My claims are valid and have been confirmed....

Confirmed by whom?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 16, 2015, 05:03:45 AM
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I really do not understand why you Gentleman are being so sarcastic to me? Did your Uncle/Daddy ruin your life with those late night visits? Come on, grow up, present yourselves as men !

This sounds like a taunt from an angry woman, possibly one that has been abused.

What gender are you NJ-71?

Just askin'.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 16, 2015, 08:00:23 AM
I think this has gone on long enough. NJ71 needs to show some sort of proof to what he/she is claiming. why would someone post things like this on a public forum, and then refuse to state any names, or protect family members? 

this is beginning to take form of a never ending circle of undocumented "facts" another poster on DZ used. it's not going to continue here.

who confirmed anything you claim, you?   
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: db cooper on May 17, 2015, 12:54:34 AM
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next general noob question:
how significant is it that (other than the Tina bar find) none of the money has ever turned up?

if cooper had survived and spent the money, would we expect some bank somewhere to have found one of the bills?  I know the serial numbers were made public, and banks were told to look out for them.  but, while I don't know exactly how this worked, I can't imagine it was that complete of a dragnet.  i certainly doubt every teller in the country was checking every bill they handled.  and even if they were in '71 and '72, there's no way they're still doing it (though, post 1995 or so, it becomes easier to imagine this being done electronically....?)

on the other hand, it was a large sum of money.  so if cooper spent it, and then it got spent by others, and then spent by still others, you'd expect it disperse over time, for more people to handle the cooper money, and for the odds of someone catching a bill to go up.

so, again, what's the executive summary on arguments about this?  I'll take a link to one if it already exists.  though I'll also accept another one of George's good posts, if he doesn't mind doing the work!


Sorry to keep you hanging DB Cooper. as far as I know every 20 that came into banks was not checked, they would of been looking for large amounts. it was to much work checking every 20 in every bank across the country.

I can find you some links, but you might want to read out Tina Bar thread for starters....
no worries, and thanks.  will check out Tina bar thread.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on May 19, 2015, 03:13:22 PM
Good luck with chasing your tail's Gentlemen. You have the social skills of a dormant slug. You speak of people that you think i am and it greatly amuses me. As i said in the beginning i could sence you were the type to twist and bend fact's in order to make your mythical BS sound sweet. You board jack asses do not want the truth, you just want something to do in life....how sad! What magnificent fools you really are. Good Luck !
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 19, 2015, 03:18:39 PM
By refusing to verify anything hardly makes your case worth discussing. instead, you choose to insult again...
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 19, 2015, 03:25:51 PM
Nightjumper71 has lost his posting abilities.


End of story!

Shutter
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 19, 2015, 03:58:31 PM
Why does it always come down to us not wanting the truth? we have a couple others who use this very same line, and yet all of them can't be speaking the truth, can they?

None of them show any actual proof. the last time I checked, it was up to them to show the truth....
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 19, 2015, 04:46:27 PM
Here's my take on this phenomenon:

I sense that folks like NJ-71 have been telling their story in hushed tones to a select audience that treat it as true and sacred. They listen in rapt attention.

But, when tell us, guys like NJ-71 get a very different reception and the tellers get rattled. In response, they blame us for not wanting the truth -  a truth that was revered by others around the campfire late at night, or the kitchen table, at the Lions club bar, etc.

Something like that happened to me. For years I had held people spellbound around a BBQ fire or a table. I was a top-notch raconteur. But when I took my stories to a stage, the impact was much different and I was unnerved.

What we have just witnessed here with NJ-71 is part of the Norjak dynamic. The forces of attraction to this story are very powerful, and they sweep in lots of different kinds of folks.

Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 19, 2015, 04:51:14 PM
I believe it helps take attention away of the original questions, or claims. like a magician does, distraction....
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 19, 2015, 04:57:03 PM
That, too.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 19, 2015, 05:21:34 PM
It's sad people acts this way. I figured a problem would occur with night71. he claims he lives in one state, while his IP comes from another. that's verified  8)
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on May 20, 2015, 01:28:15 AM
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I believe it helps take attention away of the original questions, or claims. like a magician does, distraction....

My guess is he has an actual theory based on a ton of personal reading, thought, and his own personal instincts.

We should be honored he brought it here to share with the unwashed.  :P   He may be right. Or he may be Letterman and tomorrow is his last act. Or he may be DB Cooper!  Dormant slug?  :-* ;D ;D   Back to the drawing board with the A team!
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 20, 2015, 01:38:29 AM
Where do slugs come from?  Do they over-winter in the ground somehow?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on May 20, 2015, 01:53:30 AM
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Where do slugs come from?  Do they over-winter in the ground somehow?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slug
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 20, 2015, 02:23:25 AM
Eggs.

Sigh.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on May 20, 2015, 03:33:13 PM
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Eggs.

Sigh.

So, with your expertise in the DB Cooper case and now a book on the subject, what is your resolution of the conflict between the FBI flightpath/drop zone vs. the money find at Tina Bar?

Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 20, 2015, 04:25:03 PM
Resolution?  I have none.

But I am following your work closely, as usual!
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: EVickiW on May 20, 2015, 04:38:53 PM
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Resolution?  I have none.

But I am following your work closely, as usual!

If you had the chance to interview Alice Hancock....What would you ask? 

I spoke with one of my residents who knows her. She had mentioned to him that the sketch is too thin and is not accurate to what she remembers.

He is going to ask her if she is willing to answer some questions.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 20, 2015, 05:31:11 PM
Questions for Alice Hancock:

1. What's been the impact of the skyjacking in your life?

2. What do you remember? What was your role in the hijacking? What did you do?

3. Are there any parts of the general story that you feel need to be corrected, expanded or changed in any way?

4. Any thoughts on why Tina and Florence aren't talking to the media?

5. What was your role in the investigation? What's your impression of the FBI? Any thoughts on why the case is still unsolved?

6. Would you like a copy of my book?

7. Thanks for talking with us.

And thank you EVick-
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 20, 2015, 06:32:18 PM
What is your view on some of the famous suspects, Kenny Christiansen, Duane Weber etc.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: nmiwrecks on May 20, 2015, 07:45:29 PM
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Resolution?  I have none.

But I am following your work closely, as usual!

If you had the chance to interview Alice Hancock....What would you ask? 

I spoke with one of my residents who knows her. She had mentioned to him that the sketch is too thin and is not accurate to what she remembers.

He is going to ask her if she is willing to answer some questions.

It would be wonderful if she would look at photos of the missing men we've been talking about and maybe a few other suspects.  A one page collage of each suspect could be created and "what resembles Cooper the most?" and "What least resembles Cooper?" could be asked of each suspect.

I also like Bruce's questions:
1. What's been the impact of the skyjacking in your life?

2. What do you remember? What was your role in the hijacking? What did you do?

3. Are there any parts of the general story that you feel need to be corrected, expanded or changed in any way?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: EVickiW on May 20, 2015, 11:35:56 PM
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Resolution?  I have none.

But I am following your work closely, as usual!

If you had the chance to interview Alice Hancock....What would you ask? 

I spoke with one of my residents who knows her. She had mentioned to him that the sketch is too thin and is not accurate to what she remembers.

He is going to ask her if she is willing to answer some questions.

It would be wonderful if she would look at photos of the missing men we've been talking about and maybe a few other suspects.  A one page collage of each suspect could be created and "what resembles Cooper the most?" and "What least resembles Cooper?" could be asked of each suspect.

I also like Bruce's questions:
1. What's been the impact of the skyjacking in your life?

2. What do you remember? What was your role in the hijacking? What did you do?

3. Are there any parts of the general story that you feel need to be corrected, expanded or changed in any way?

I am not sure if she will talk to any of us yet. I have known for a few years that a resident at my community was a friend of hers. We started talking today and I asked if he could talk to her and she would either agree to talk with a reporter at THe Mountain News. Or. if she was uncomfortable talking to anyone, would she answer some questions.

So....we will see what happens. No promises.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on May 21, 2015, 01:08:57 AM
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Resolution?  I have none.

But I am following your work closely, as usual!

If you had the chance to interview Alice Hancock....What would you ask? 

I spoke with one of my residents who knows her. She had mentioned to him that the sketch is too thin and is not accurate to what she remembers.

He is going to ask her if she is willing to answer some questions.

It would be wonderful if she would look at photos of the missing men we've been talking about and maybe a few other suspects.  A one page collage of each suspect could be created and "what resembles Cooper the most?" and "What least resembles Cooper?" could be asked of each suspect.

I also like Bruce's questions:
1. What's been the impact of the skyjacking in your life?

2. What do you remember? What was your role in the hijacking? What did you do?

3. Are there any parts of the general story that you feel need to be corrected, expanded or changed in any way?

I am not sure if she will talk to any of us yet. I have known for a few years that a resident at my community was a friend of hers. We started talking today and I asked if he could talk to her and she would either agree to talk with a reporter at THe Mountain News. Or. if she was uncomfortable talking to anyone, would she answer some questions.

So....we will see what happens. No promises.

Maybe she hasn't kept up with the case at all since it happened? That's the first question I would ask, since all other questions almost depend on that! She may not care about the Cooper matter at all!  ;D

She probably never heard of any of us! ! !  :-\ :-* :-* :-*  or Cousin Bruce Smith esq! If she finds out Bruce stalked Tina Mucklow he is probably SOL. Bruce definitely does NOT represent the mainstream or us (that's the under statement of the decade!). 

Just wondering. Has she followed the case at all since it happened? !
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 21, 2015, 01:59:00 AM
Galen told me that he had located Alice a few years ago, contacted her, and that she had agreed to help him try to make contact with Tina, which was unsuccessful.

So, I gather that she is knowledgeable of the case.

Also, I am greatly offended that anyone would say I "stalked" Tina. I did not. Yes, I was determined to meet her, but I did so through wholly appropriate avenues of journalistic endeavor - family, friends, the nuns, etc. Yes, I knocked on her front door, and when she asked me to leave I did.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on May 21, 2015, 02:56:48 AM
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Galen told me that he had located Alice a few years ago, contacted her, and that she had agreed to help him try to make contact with Tina, which was unsuccessful.

So, I gather that she is knowledgeable of the case.

Also, I am greatly offended that anyone would say I "stalked" Tina. I did not. Yes, I was determined to meet her, but I did so through wholly appropriate avenues of journalistic endeavor - family, friends, the nuns, etc. Yes, I knocked on her front door, and when she asked me to leave I did.

My original questions stands: "Has she followed the case at all since it happened? ! "

I would make no assumptions based on remote viewing of this n that fertilized by wishful thinking and the desire for yet another groundbreaking coup d'état.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on May 21, 2015, 02:31:56 PM
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Resolution?  I have none.

But I am following your work closely, as usual!

If you had the chance to interview Alice Hancock....What would you ask? 

I spoke with one of my residents who knows her. She had mentioned to him that the sketch is too thin and is not accurate to what she remembers.

He is going to ask her if she is willing to answer some questions.

It would be wonderful if she would look at photos of the missing men we've been talking about and maybe a few other suspects.  A one page collage of each suspect could be created and "what resembles Cooper the most?" and "What least resembles Cooper?" could be asked of each suspect.

I also like Bruce's questions:
1. What's been the impact of the skyjacking in your life?

2. What do you remember? What was your role in the hijacking? What did you do?

3. Are there any parts of the general story that you feel need to be corrected, expanded or changed in any way?

I am not sure if she will talk to any of us yet. I have known for a few years that a resident at my community was a friend of hers. We started talking today and I asked if he could talk to her and she would either agree to talk with a reporter at THe Mountain News. Or. if she was uncomfortable talking to anyone, would she answer some questions.

So....we will see what happens. No promises.

Vicki - there is nothing to prevent you from interviewing Hancock yourself. You are an intelligent sensitive woman! You know the issues at stake. Hancock might be more responsive to you than anyone else. That might be the very best path to follow? Good luck.
 :)
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 21, 2015, 07:03:27 PM
Galen has told me that both Alice and Andy Anderson are knowledgeable of the case.

Yes, G, I think that EViki should chat with Alice herself. Then, perhaps a conference call would be suitable as well.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 22, 2015, 08:11:51 PM
This was done very well IMO.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EI12IaNfXeU
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 22, 2015, 11:13:45 PM
It amazes me how many guys who talk about DB Cooper, make videos, etc, get so much wrong. Inconclusive money find???

I thought the money stuck in his coat like a clown was cool, though.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 22, 2015, 11:15:29 PM
Yep, I seen that. I was talking about the production of the video. there was something else wrong, but I can't recall at the moment.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on May 22, 2015, 11:36:34 PM
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Yep, I seen that. I was talking about the production of the video. there was something else wrong, but I can't recall at the moment.

None of the pilots were Black.  :o

The anchor did not look like a zombie and come off like he knows the encyclopedia by heart (and your motivations too!)  ;D  ! That's progress!! :)  Videos should not be made by psycho patients on Ward IV who also have videos on their target shooting, Dialectical Materialism, and "How to Find Nazis in Argentina in your spare time" ?!  :-*   

Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 22, 2015, 11:40:36 PM
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Yep, I seen that. I was talking about the production of the video. there was something else wrong, but I can't recall at the moment.

None of the pilots were Black.  :o

The anchor did not look like a zombie and come off like he knows the encyclopedia by heart (and your motivations too!)  ;D  ! That's progress!! :)


I just liked the concept of it for some reason.....it would make a good intro if things were accurate.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on May 23, 2015, 12:14:42 AM
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Yep, I seen that. I was talking about the production of the video. there was something else wrong, but I can't recall at the moment.

None of the pilots were Black.  :o

The anchor did not look like a zombie and come off like he knows the encyclopedia by heart (and your motivations too!)  ;D  ! That's progress!! :)


I just liked the concept of it for some reason.....it would make a good intro if things were accurate.

Yes, the tone is better but with lots of basic errors. Was the FBI "tailing the aircraft"? (errors like that). The next morning reporters and the FBI descended on the town of Ariel Washington .... scoured the place looking for Cooper ... but found nothing. They have the age of Cooper about right. Money stuck to his vest ... poker player! 

I think one of the untold stories of the Cooper case is all of the independent people who searched for Cooper, in one fashion or another. I am sure you could collect personal anecdotes from at least 100 different people who looked for Cooper in one form or another, who talked to law enforcement people, etc etc etc. The collected stories from all of those people would make an interesting read - but again a collection of such stories has never emerged 20 years late!

   
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 23, 2015, 09:50:26 AM
Robert99 contacted me through a PM stating he has spoken with Meyer Louie. they wanted me to post his comment on the forum.

I would like to add a few things before I paste his reply. I have a lot of respect for Meyer, I read a lot of his comments on DZ prior to even speaking with him personally. he has a lot of knowledge, and was always involved with any road trips about Cooper. he joined this forum when it first started, but had some personal issues to take care of which anyone could easily understand. we all have a life outside of good old DB Cooper.

I'm glad you have made a full recovery, and hope you continue to have good health for many years ahead. I hope to meet you one day. I believe you share the same sense of humor I have, making it to be a meeting to remember.

As for the Atlas Media dealings. yes, I've done the Skype thingy twice with them, and will be doing another this Tuesday. it appears they are not leaving any rocks unturned.

I'll be looking forward to seeing your name at the bottom of this forum as an active member soon, but please continue to get better, and we all miss you here.....

Shutter

Message below is from Meyer Louie....."The Man Of the Month"



Robert99 and all my DB Cooper colleagues:

It's taken me a year to reply.  Sorry for the delay.  I missed y'all a lot.  Been busy trying to make living in a new area and get healthy again.  I live in eastern Washington now, the Okanogan valley, north central washington.  I took a math teaching job with Wenatchee Valley College.  It  didn't work out.  So, I am looking to be gainfully employed again -- back to the drawing board. 

Also, a year and a half ago, I had a stroke in my right eye, what's called a retinal vein occlusion.  Lost about 70% of my eye sight, but with treatment, I have gotten 99% of it back.  Lots of annoying floaters to deal with though, but at least I have most of my right eye sight back.  I still sing and oil paint.

Enough about me -- got some new stuff regarding the case.  This morning, I did a skype interview with Mark Dalbis, casting manager for Atlas Media, Burbank, CA.  Mark is trying to develop a quality program about the Cooper case, lots of people are still interested and intrigued, and he wants to talk to several of us who have some knowledge and expertise in the case.  A quality documentary production is in the offing.  I must admit, I wasn't as sharp as I would have liked, I was rusty on names, dates, and facts -- I've been away too long.  I did my best though -- I told Mark I believe my strength is more in the relationships and friendships I have kindled with all you -- my DB Cooper friends and colleagues.  I have made a serious attempt to get to know and interact with as many of you as I have been able.  It's been good, it's been rich -- the DZ forum, the WA state history museum DB Cooper exhibit, the 2011 symposium, several field trips to Tina Bar and Amboy with Bruce and Robert99, marathon phone conversations with Jo -- and on and on.  Mark appears to be a straight up guy.  He told me he would be willing to talk to Jo, Georger, Shutter, Safecrack, and Brian Ingram -- if you would like.  You may get your 15 minutes of fame.  When he edits down the interviews, there's a better than not chance you will be appearing on the program -- which Mark is hoping the History Channel or Dateline or whoever will pick up the production and broadcast it.  Mark stressed he wanted the production to be correct, quality information. 

Has anyone else done an interview with Mark Dalbis?

So good to be back.  I missed you!

Meyer

Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: sailshaw on May 23, 2015, 11:20:05 AM
Bruce Smith   You say "I thought the money stuck in his coat like a clown was cool, though."

I say:   "What is wrong with the theory that DB offered three bundles of $20's to the Flight Crew and it was turned down, so he then stuffed the bundles into the paper bag he brought on the plane and then stuffed the bag with the three bundles inside his shirt but it blew out when he jumped. The bag served to keep the bundles together until buried on the beach but rotted away leaving the three bundles together until found."

Just thinking about it here in Paris France,

Bob Sailshaw
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on May 23, 2015, 02:08:43 PM
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Robert99 contacted me through a PM stating he has spoken with Meyer Louie. they wanted me to post his comment on the forum.

I would like to add a few things before I paste his reply. I have a lot of respect for Meyer, I read a lot of his comments on DZ prior to even speaking with him personally. he has a lot of knowledge, and was always involved with any road trips about Cooper. he joined this forum when it first started, but had some personal issues to take care of which anyone could easily understand. we all have a life outside of good old DB Cooper.

I'm glad you have made a full recovery, and hope you continue to have good health for many years ahead. I hope to meet you one day. I believe you share the same sense of humor I have, making it to be a meeting to remember.

As for the Atlas Media dealings. yes, I've done the Skype thingy twice with them, and will be doing another this Tuesday. it appears they are not leaving any rocks unturned.

I'll be looking forward to seeing your name at the bottom of this forum as an active member soon, but please continue to get better, and we all miss you here.....

Shutter

Message below is from Meyer Louie....."The Man Of the Month"



Robert99 and all my DB Cooper colleagues:

It's taken me a year to reply.  Sorry for the delay.  I missed y'all a lot.  Been busy trying to make living in a new area and get healthy again.  I live in eastern Washington now, the Okanogan valley, north central washington.  I took a math teaching job with Wenatchee Valley College.  It  didn't work out.  So, I am looking to be gainfully employed again -- back to the drawing board. 

Also, a year and a half ago, I had a stroke in my right eye, what's called a retinal vein occlusion.  Lost about 70% of my eye sight, but with treatment, I have gotten 99% of it back.  Lots of annoying floaters to deal with though, but at least I have most of my right eye sight back.  I still sing and oil paint.

Enough about me -- got some new stuff regarding the case.  This morning, I did a skype interview with Mark Dalbis, casting manager for Atlas Media, Burbank, CA.  Mark is trying to develop a quality program about the Cooper case, lots of people are still interested and intrigued, and he wants to talk to several of us who have some knowledge and expertise in the case.  A quality documentary production is in the offing.  I must admit, I wasn't as sharp as I would have liked, I was rusty on names, dates, and facts -- I've been away too long.  I did my best though -- I told Mark I believe my strength is more in the relationships and friendships I have kindled with all you -- my DB Cooper friends and colleagues.  I have made a serious attempt to get to know and interact with as many of you as I have been able.  It's been good, it's been rich -- the DZ forum, the WA state history museum DB Cooper exhibit, the 2011 symposium, several field trips to Tina Bar and Amboy with Bruce and Robert99, marathon phone conversations with Jo -- and on and on.  Mark appears to be a straight up guy.  He told me he would be willing to talk to Jo, Georger, Shutter, Safecrack, and Brian Ingram -- if you would like.  You may get your 15 minutes of fame.  When he edits down the interviews, there's a better than not chance you will be appearing on the program -- which Mark is hoping the History Channel or Dateline or whoever will pick up the production and broadcast it.  Mark stressed he wanted the production to be correct, quality information. 

Has anyone else done an interview with Mark Dalbis?

So good to be back.  I missed you!

Meyer

Meyer, it's good to hear from you. I hope things turn better and less stressful for you.

Take care Meyer.

G.



         
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on May 23, 2015, 02:23:07 PM
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Bruce Smith   You say "I thought the money stuck in his coat like a clown was cool, though."

I say:   "What is wrong with the theory that DB offered three bundles of $20's to the Flight Crew and it was turned down, so he then stuffed the bundles into the paper bag he brought on the plane and then stuffed the bag with the three bundles inside his shirt but it blew out when he jumped. The bag served to keep the bundles together until buried on the beach but rotted away leaving the three bundles together until found."

Just thinking about it here in Paris France,

Bob Sailshaw

Same ole problems. Nobody said anything or gave a count about '3 bundolas' and the money went back into the bag from Cooper's own hand in any event ... I dont know WHY people keep trying to make something out of nothing!

Prior to that of course both Flo and Tina reported Cooper very excited 'child-like' and physically animated at the sight of all of the money in the bag ... as if her had never seen more than $5 in one place at one time in his life! He was temporarily overcome with gladness?  :D One has to think it was also a personal victory he was experiencing in getting authorities to delivery such a sum, in the first place! In a place and time where he could personally savour it  without fear of immediate intervention ....

But the bomb and the threat of a bomb was not far from the stew's mind during any of this watching Cooper's antics. It may have reduced the tension for a moment, and nothing more. :D 
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on May 23, 2015, 03:59:22 PM
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Alright Gentlemen, the facts and you can take them and twist them until it to is "just another story".
Facts:
Touched down Merwin Dam
Picked up in Yale
Dropped off in Washougal
Train to just south of Stevenso, stayed 1 day.
Walked to Carson, stayed a day and a half.
Picked up, crossed into Oregon via route 35.
Destination Eugene Oregon.
Returned to Washougal in August 1973 to retrieve cash.
Returned to Eugene and never left.

There is what happened, now screw it up royal boys!

I dont have the adverse reaction to  Nightjumper71 the rest of you, particularly Shutter and Bruce Smith, seem to have. To be sure some proof or at least some series of logic is required in order to validate theory like the above, however: Why bypass the opportunity to learn something rather than closing the door on Nightjumper71 too quickly?

For one thing, Nightjumper71's theory has Eugene at it's center and that intrigues me because known facts of the DB Cooper case do involve Eugene. Let me mention some of those facts:

1. Mitchell says he was told that photos being shown him by FBI agents were weighted in favor of 'suspects in the Eugene area'. Several reasons may account for this - 

2.  Those of us who have researched this case know that after flight 305 passed out of Portland and Eugene airspace headed for Reno on the evening of 11-24-71, a discussion developed between controllers about an event that had occurred a week before in Eugene airspace with somebody dropping flares at night from a private plane. This ultimately involved law enforcement before it ended with a reports being filed with the FAA and the FBI. When things began to settle down at Portland and Eugene on the evening of 11-24-71, controllers began to discuss if the Eugene incident and the (Cooper) hijacking still in progress could be related.

This alone would be sufficient reason for agents at Eugene to pull photos of people in the Eugene area to show Cooper hijacking witnesses like Mitchell, looking for a relationship between the prior incident at Eugene and the Cooper hijacking.

Hours later of course and into the next day on 11-25-71, 'Janet' and her husband at Portland-Vancouver made their own 'flare or fire' report. Janet claims the FBI showed up at her front door and told her to say nothing further!

3. We have very little information about what agents at Eugene did in the DB Cooper case. Nightjumper71 has some reason for bringing Eugene into his theory. I would like to know why Nightjumper71 thinks 'Eugene' is important in the DB Cooper case.

4. We have been accused by Mr. Blevins of being opportunistic, Cooper Royalty, biased, invoking censorship for no good reason etc etc etc etc etc! I hope there is no truth to his claims. Let's not over-react here in this forum just because of the Venom Magnet, and our bad experiences with Robert M Blevins and Jo Weber!

That's all I have to say.

 ;) 


Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 23, 2015, 04:29:38 PM
Quote
I dont have the adverse reaction to  Nightjumper71 the rest of you, particularly Shutter and Bruce Smith, seem to have. To be sure some proof or at least some series of logic is required in order to validate theory like the above, however: Why bypass the opportunity to learn something rather than closing the door on Nightjumper71 too quickly?


He was asked several times, and by several members to state some sort of proof. he always responded with personal attacks. now, he's not permanently banned. I thought I would stop him for a while to possibly reconsider his approach. my decision was based on my opinion only. if Bruce agreed with my conclusion, that was his personal view as well. I said at the beginning that he was more than welcome to state his claim, but seemed resistant when asked for any type verification. I'm not going to allow him to continue the way he was in the past.

When people use the claim of not wanting the truth. this causes me concern. why would someone not want the truth? now, if you want me to lift the current ban he has, I will do it if you feel his comments are worth reviewing. it's your call?

Added: He was personal in his attacks, along with the name calling. I give two shits what Blevin's thinks about it!!
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 23, 2015, 04:30:18 PM
I wish NJ-71 had stayed around long enough to tell us how, where and when he got his story.

I recommend lifting whatever ban has been imposed.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 23, 2015, 04:36:10 PM
I revoked his posting privileges due to his behavior. he can still see the site. If Georger also agree's, which I believe he will. I'll allow him to post again.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on May 23, 2015, 04:44:08 PM
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I revoked his posting privileges due to his behavior. he can still see the site. If Georger also agree's, which I believe he will. I'll allow him to post again.

Thats fine with me - I kind of hated to see him chased off if he didnt want to leave.

I have thought all along that Blevins footprint is large - he did a lot of damage to people. The idea we are Royalty and biased and censor people for no reason is total bunk.

I would have given several warnings about personal attack and if it continued then maybe act... but N71 has some reason for his theory.

Lets discuss the case and its factual evidence if we can and try and get beyond all of this personal ka ka started by Blevins and Weber. Discussing the case is why we are here.

The FACT is: there is a strong factual Eugene connection in the DB Cooper case. I want to hear more about it. And I just HATE discussion about the case being washed away due to stronger "social media" concerns. 


Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 23, 2015, 04:50:36 PM
Warnings were given. It's pretty simple when you come to a forum. you need to respect the one's around you. I'm sure if you allowed me in your home, you wouldn't appreciate me putting my feet on your coffee table? same apply's here. some jabs were tossed his way, and he returned fire. I told him and Bruce to end the shots, and move forward. he was warned again after the first time, so I had to do something the third time around.

I will remove the block, but he will be watched carefully....I never disrespected him, and I won't allow him to disrespect others!

Shutter
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 23, 2015, 05:03:29 PM
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Bruce Smith   You say "I thought the money stuck in his coat like a clown was cool, though."

I say:   "What is wrong with the theory that DB offered three bundles of $20's to the Flight Crew and it was turned down, so he then stuffed the bundles into the paper bag he brought on the plane and then stuffed the bag with the three bundles inside his shirt but it blew out when he jumped. The bag served to keep the bundles together until buried on the beach but rotted away leaving the three bundles together until found."

Just thinking about it here in Paris France,

Bob Sailshaw

Bonjour, M'sieur Sail. Comment ca va?

Three bundolas in a bag tucked into a shirt?  Sure it's possible; it's just unconfirmed and not substantiated by any known facts.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 25, 2015, 04:56:24 PM
I'm working on the crew notes for the website. I just noticed something, not sure if it's the same term but on page 4 of the notes it states this....

2310 – wants money in
negotiable currency
to be passed ?+? a
crew member

2320 – wants everything
ready before
landing

Now, it appears it might be "passed by, or to a crew member". I've noticed with knowing several Canadians that they tend to say pass, instead of borrow, or give etc. my buddy was always using this term. "pass me 5 bucks" pass me the remote"

Just a thought.....
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on May 26, 2015, 12:13:02 AM
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I'm working on the crew notes for the website. I just noticed something, not sure if it's the same term but on page 4 of the notes it states this....

2310 – wants money in
negotiable currency
to be passed ?+? a
crew member

2320 – wants everything
ready before
landing

Now, it appears it might be "passed by, or to a crew member". I've noticed with knowing several Canadians that they tend to say pass, instead of borrow, or give etc. my buddy was always using this term. "pass me 5 bucks" pass me the remote"

Just a thought.....

This came up before on DZ. No definite answer there. But others noticed it .... let me ask some family members. eh?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 26, 2015, 03:13:25 AM
One of my wives was Canadian, and although I don't remember a whole lot about her I don't remember the pass thingy at all.

But I do remember that she said a-boat for about, claiming it was her family's Newfie influences.

I also applied for Canadian immigration a couple of times - called Landed Immigrant status - but was turned down once and I don't remember anything about passing then either. The second application didn't get too far as that was my honey-bun's job.....hence, the Big D.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 26, 2015, 10:11:55 AM
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One of my wives was Canadian, and although I don't remember a whole lot about her I don't remember the pass thingy at all.

But I do remember that she said a-boat for about, claiming it was her family's Newfie influences.

I also applied for Canadian immigration a couple of times - called Landed Immigrant status - but was turned down once and I don't remember anything about passing then either. The second application didn't get too far as that was my honey-bun's job.....hence, the Big D.


Not all Canadians speak this way. my buddy lives in Quebec, he doesn't say "eh" either, but uses the "pass" phrase. it depends on the location, just as it does here.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on May 28, 2015, 09:40:19 PM
So, basically most believe Cooper lived in the U.S.?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 28, 2015, 10:36:02 PM
I would say he was an American, but not necessarily living in the United States.

Ted?  Petey?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: 377 on June 02, 2015, 07:14:20 PM
Skydived last Sunday with 10 Meter radio gear (10 M is a ham band very close to the CB band). Got numerous contacts from aloft starting at about 10,000 ft. Used a trailing wire antenna and a AA cell powered very small radio (Yaesu FT 817). Got really good signal reports from hams as far as 60 miles away.

Not saying Cooper used radio gear.... but had he done so it would have likely worked.

See attached pic.

377
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on June 02, 2015, 07:18:02 PM
That's like a 10,000 foot antenna  :o

Looks like a King 90 behind you there....
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: 377 on June 03, 2015, 12:05:37 AM
Correct! King Air A 90. Our prior one was totaled last Dec. Pilot forgot to put the gear down for landing. CRUNCH.

377
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on June 03, 2015, 01:56:26 AM
WHAT????
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: sailshaw on June 03, 2015, 10:54:56 AM
377   Good job of testing the use of Ham gear close to the freq of CB gear for distance. I think Sheridan/DB would have used CB gear to talk with his two ground men. Possibly Earl Cossey and Duane Webber. Jo has talked about the radio gear that Duane had in his car and how he talked with everything including towers in the dropzone for Norjak. Duane also knew too much about the caper to be just a bystander and not involved. Such quotes from Duane as "maybe I was his groundman?" to Jo's question "how do you know the North end of Lake Lacama is where DB came out of the woods?".

I suspect Cossey as the other groundman based upon his rapid and shocking denial of knowing Sheridan Peterson when I asked on the phone with him and then his withdrawal from a lunch date with me. Cossey had to know Sheridan as the Boeing Skydiving Club was working out of the same Issaquah dropzone where Cossey worked as a rigger. The two would have had a lot of time together to cook up the perfect plan.

Bob Sailshaw
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: 377 on June 03, 2015, 01:25:23 PM
I too think Cossey must have known Sheridan but denying it doesn't prove any involvement in NORJACK. Cossey is a puzzle. He has said many inconsistent things. It could be that he just enjoyed "messing" with people.

I doubt if his murder had any connection to NORJACK but that's just speculation. The police sure don't appear to be making progress on solving the case.

Maybe Bruce can remote view the murder and tell us what happened. He's already remote viewed Cooper's 727 run. 😉

Bruce's book was featured in Parachutist magazine. Not a paid plug. Yay for Bruce. Musika F must be feeling the pressure.

377







Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on June 03, 2015, 05:04:08 PM
If only I could feel Mooshie's heart beating close to mine....

Remote view Cossey's murder?  Great idea, Three.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on June 04, 2015, 12:10:12 AM
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If only I could feel Mooshie's heart beating close to mine....

Remote view Cossey's murder?  Great idea, Three.

Mooshy?  :P

He's dead. You are a sick man.  :-X 
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on June 04, 2015, 04:31:15 PM
Musika told me that she prefers to be called by her nickname, Mooshie, as Musika is pronounced Moosh - e - ka.

As for remote viewing Cossey's death, it sounds like a perfect application of the science of consciousness.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on June 05, 2015, 12:15:07 AM
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Musika told me that she prefers to be called by her nickname, Mooshie, as Musika is pronounced Moosh - e - ka.

As for remote viewing Cossey's death, it sounds like a perfect application of the science of consciousness.

We were supposed to know or mindmeld THAT!? 

Translation and Meaning of mushy mooshy in Almaany English-Hebrew Dictionary
Sorry, your search did not give any results
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on June 05, 2015, 01:40:58 AM
Georger, if you had read and remembered ALL of my posts at the DZ over the years, you would know these details of my relationship with Ms. Farnsworth. And 377's....
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on June 05, 2015, 03:25:38 AM
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Georger, if you had read and remembered ALL of my posts at the DZ over the years, you would know these details of my relationship with Ms. Farnsworth. And 377's....

Was it important?  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on June 05, 2015, 03:55:44 AM
Some utterances were more memorable than others, but my musings on the women of Cooper were all gems, imho....
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: 377 on June 06, 2015, 06:54:38 PM
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If only I could feel Mooshie's heart beating close to mine....

Remote view Cossey's murder?  Great idea, Three.

See Musika's photo below. Skydiver, author, enigmatic beauty.

377

Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on June 07, 2015, 12:04:28 AM
Ahhhhh...thanks, Three.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on June 07, 2015, 03:04:27 PM
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So here's a question I have that doesn't fit anywhere:

Today ties aren't universal. Most people who wear ties regularly, knot them properly. I know of nobody who wears ties and mixes knotted and clip-on ties. The only people I know who wear clip-on ties are kids working as bus boys in restaurants.

When ties were more universal, did people regularly buy both for convenience?

Ahhhh ... the Necktie! A piece of social ornamentation that infers class, which signals the social order and rights and responsibilities, and the further down the food chain you go the more likely a faux-tie (clip on tie) will appear. Flotsam and jetsam don;t necessarily have the brains to learn how to tie a real tie, much less the training or experience or privilege owing to their station in life. Cooper was announcing he was part of the social order, pure and simple! The question is: which part.  :)  All parts? Cooper the jester; the Court Fool or Clown?. A man with a Grudge, he said.

All animals have physical signs and adornments of their status and use those signs in life - no less the case for our Jester, Mr. Cooper. Like Bruce Smith flashes and flaunts his 'ornaments" signalling superiority or invitation!

Himmelsbach was very quick to place Cooper into a social status category: foul mouthed person possibly a food service worker : not an ex P51 fighter pilot aviation enthusiast like Himmelsbach himself who has had training and formal clearance but who has never seen actual combat beyond chasing gophers on the golf course in his P51 at government expense! Cooper is at a much lower social status than Himmelsbach who classifies Cooper as a Food Service Worker type. The clip on tie tells it all!

Then Kaye comes along and the evidence on the tie elevates Cooper to a higher status and sphere of learning. Rare earths and research facility with pure Titanium and such. Fool o Prince, it is Cooper doing an actual hijacking in a faux clip on tie no less ... he surely will be a celebrity in the prison yard!
       
The human Tie, like peacock feather and white furry breast plate - signs of status and intention be that submission or aggression.

Then he took the tie off when the job was done and neatly let it fall between two seats? Or was it on a seat? Our Cooper forensic researchers have yet  to clear that point up, or down, as the case may be.

Jesters in a comedy that has no end and plenty of drahma!

Gladys please pass me a stiff drink while I take my tie off, if you please. I have to use a bow tie tonight because Im going to the symphony. I will lift mine eyes -

 ;D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIXOQUVy16g

Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Kingdomofgod on June 07, 2015, 04:49:22 PM
What is the pychological profile of DB Cooper? I mean, a middle aged dude jumping out of an airplane into the wilderness is extreme. He must have felt reached a do-or-die-crisis point to do something like that.

Also, does the fact that he pulled off the crime with such calmness indicate experience in dealing with stressful predicaments? Maybe this enhances the idea that he was a solider.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on June 07, 2015, 05:07:45 PM
Kingdom, there is really no psychological profile on DB Cooper because all of the evidence has to be viewed subjectively, ie: what does  a clip-on tie mean, what does his parachute-choice mean, what does his knowledge of the 727 reveal about his background, etc?

In turn, our assessments of Cooper are seen through "cultural goggles." We see Cooper the way we want to see Cooper.

However, I discuss the facts of Cooper's behavior in detail in my book, and the many types of interpretations of his actions. Ten bucks at Amazon gets you DB Cooper and the FBI - A Case Study of America's Only Unsolved Skyjacking.

For me, I tend to agree with the guy flying the plane that DB Cooper was a smart cookie. I also agree with Major John Plaster and Sgt M Billy Waugh that DB Cooper was very likely a well-trained covert commando in Vietnam, such as with a MAC-V-SOG unit.

And Sailshaw's old tennent, Sheridan Peterson, has been investigated twice by the FBI for the skyjacking, so that is compelling as well. Not only is Petey a flinty recluse, he is also a smart guy who revels in weird travel, political hot-spot hopping, and bold skydiving escapades.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on June 07, 2015, 06:05:31 PM
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What is the pychological profile of DB Cooper? I mean, a middle aged dude jumping out of an airplane into the wilderness is extreme. He must have felt reached a do-or-die-crisis point to do something like that.

Also, does the fact that he pulled off the crime with such calmness indicate experience in dealing with stressful predicaments? Maybe this enhances the idea that he was a solider.

It may all come down to the nature of Cooper's grudge. Political? Economic? Something else? All of the above?

The FBI has never spoken one syllable to this aspect of the case. But unless the FBI was totally incompetent, which is doubtful, the "grudge" aspect of the case must have caused some investigation we know nothing about. The Cooper hijacking happened in a very highly charged political atmosphere combined with Cuban hijackings, and this possible aspect of the case may be one reason the FBI keeps so much of the hijacking close to its vest - it may not have any choice if other Federal agencies got involved.

It may all come down to the nature of Cooper's grudge in not only defining who Cooper was, what his motivations and social connections were, ... and where to look for such a guy whoever Cooper was. He told Tina he was doing the hijacking because he had a "grudge". He seemed very excited to get the money.

We have no information (and Bruce Smith presents no information in his book) about how Cooper's stated motive of having a grudge lead the FBI investigation, if at all. Did the FBI follow that lead at all?

Contrary to Bruce, there are profiles of Cooper all from different authors competing. We have H's and Tosaw's profile (much alike). The problem with all of these competing profiles is we have little to nail any of them down with - that is the central problem!

Very likely the FBI had several different profile-lines it investigated. Peterson and other known candidates were eliminated in the investigation; supporters of those suspects don;t want to admit this (they still post endlessly about their candidates!)!. Mitchell told us some in the FBI were focusing on suspects from the Eugene area, but no person here has ever looked into that.

So there it is.

Subscribe to the book/author of your choice. God knows there are a ton of them! Or, in the end you may form your own opinions and write your own book, like so many of the self-professed experts here who Remote View only to proclaim their superiority, being the final word on Cooper Shadows and Dust  -  :)

   
   

Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on June 07, 2015, 09:08:29 PM
"I don't have a grudge against your airlines, Miss, I just have a grudge," is what DB Cooper reportedly said.

Now, what does it mean?  Hmmm.  Did he hijack 305 because he had a grudge?  Yes, you could make that argument. Was he a gentleman because he used the word, "Miss?"

And so it goes.

All we really know and can agree on is Georger's nickname, "Grumpy."

As for the grudge quote, I did include it in the book, but I refrained from giving it a definitive assessment. I'm not sure what anyone thinks it means, or its specific value in determining DBC's psychological state. I believe it gets put into the general collection of sayings, attitudes, gestures, etc that make up the general persona of DB Cooper, along with nicotine-stained fingers, looking like a businessman, and generally acting like a gentleman although he got a bit giddy when the money showed up. But cool and competent while hijacking an airliner.

As Waugh told me, "It looked like a SOG operation. Well-planned and well-executed."

Also, Cooper's actions can be compared with the copycats. His behavior stands out as much more sophisticated. Plus he had sustained, deliberate interactions with the flight attendants, and kept himself veiled from 36 passengers for over two hours. Impressive crowd control, imho.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on June 07, 2015, 09:18:06 PM
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What is the pyschological profile of DB Cooper? I mean, a middle aged dude jumping out of an airplane into the wilderness is extreme....

Well, KOGger, it begs the question of what makes something extreme. For instance, Three-Seven-Seven still jumps out of airplanes and he is WELL past his mid-forties, although I believe I am a year older than he.

As for "wilderness," the prime LZ was mostly rolling hills and farmlands, although there were and still are rugged, forested hillsides around the headwaters of the Lewis River and Merwin Lake area.

As for jumping at night, SOG guys did it because it was the best time to fly when folks on the ground are trying to shoot at ya.  Regarding the rain, again paraphrasing 377, it ain't raining under a deployed canopy. Besides, it's the PNW, what else did you expect....

See how this goes?  How do you want to spin the analysis???
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on June 08, 2015, 12:28:36 AM
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What is the pyschological profile of DB Cooper? I mean, a middle aged dude jumping out of an airplane into the wilderness is extreme....

Well, KOGger, it begs the question of what makes something extreme. For instance, Three-Seven-Seven still jumps out of airplanes and he is WELL past his mid-forties, although I believe I am a year older than he.

As for "wilderness," the prime LZ was mostly rolling hills and farmlands, although there were and still are rugged, forested hillsides around the headwaters of the Lewis River and Merwin Lake area.

As for jumping at night, SOG guys did it because it was the best time to fly when folks on the ground are trying to shoot at ya.  Regarding the rain, again paraphrasing 377, it ain't raining under a deployed canopy. Besides, it's the PNW, what else did you expect....

See how this goes?  How do you want to spin the analysis???


    - NOT WORTH REPLYING TO -
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on June 08, 2015, 03:18:26 PM
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Georger, if you had read and remembered ALL of my posts at the DZ over the years, you would know these details of my relationship with Ms. Farnsworth. And 377's....

I am NOT as EXCELLENT AS YOU! which is the matter at issue you make?

One point worth considering but being avoided here is just how far does you book go in conveying important information about the DB Cooper case, which could lead to a resolution of the matter?

Or, is your book intended as a "Tell-All" in the Social Media vortex you in part are responsiblefor?

It seems every Tom, Dick, and Harry, and Blevins and Smith (Mary Sue and Betty Jane) has a "tell-all" to share with the Cooper world. All based on years of personal research of course! What makes your "tell-all" better or more significant than the last guy's, or the next guy's, or the one after that?

What would an ordinary Cooper researcher or fan need your book for beyond recreational activity? 

Have you discovered anything NEW about those suspects at Eugene yet? Or were WSHM., Mitchell, etal just wasting time on journalists like you, giving you facts to work with and then nothing?

 ;)

Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on June 08, 2015, 05:11:52 PM
Grumps, you're a hard man to keep happy.

True, you make clear all the aspects of investigation that I, or others, have yet to grapple with fully. But what do you think of my book? Your contributions to the understanding of the money find makes that section of DB Cooper and the FBI singular in the Cooper firmament, wouldn't you agree?

Along those lines, who else writing about Norjak has interviewed as many principles in the case as I have?

Further, who else has teased apart the parachute kerfluffle to give us some clarity about Cossey, Hayden and Ckret's pronouncements? It took me a damn month to write that chapter!
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on June 22, 2015, 03:35:56 AM
Greetings Everyone -

I've done some remote viewing on the death of Earl Cossey. The information that came forward suggests that his murder was not connected to the DB Cooper case.

I have emailed some researchers with the details of what I viewed, and if you didn't receive the email and would like to know more please get in touch with me via usual means. It's of a personal nature and not appropriate for an Internet site such as this forum.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on June 27, 2015, 10:07:56 PM
Crazy Central

In case anyone is missing the zaniness of Jo Weber, Galen has encountered a lassie that has Jo beat, hands down.  Nanette Barto is a handwriting analyst in LA and has linked DB Cooper with the Zodiac Killer, the Jon Benet Ramsey murder, JFK's assassination and the Black Dahlia murder.

Take that, Duane, no "Y," no "w."
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on June 28, 2015, 01:16:15 AM
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Crazy Central

In case anyone is missing the zaniness of Jo Weber, Galen has encountered a lassie that has Jo beat, hands down.  Nanette Barto is a handwriting analyst in LA and has linked DB Cooper with the Zodiac Killer, the Jon Benet Ramsey murder, JFK's assassination and the Black Dahlia murder.

Take that, Duane, no "Y," no "w."

Bruce,

Just think happy thoughts and get a good nights sleep.  The world will look better tomorrow.

You must be the only one on Shutter's site who misses the last few years of the DZ thread.  And for God's sake, please DO NOT give any links to wherever it is that Cook finds such people.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on June 28, 2015, 02:43:33 AM
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Crazy Central

In case anyone is missing the zaniness of Jo Weber, Galen has encountered a lassie that has Jo beat, hands down.  Nanette Barto is a handwriting analyst in LA and has linked DB Cooper with the Zodiac Killer, the Jon Benet Ramsey murder, JFK's assassination and the Black Dahlia murder.

Take that, Duane, no "Y," no "w."

Bruce,

Just think happy thoughts and get a good nights sleep.  The world will look better tomorrow.

You must be the only one on Shutter's site who misses the last few years of the DZ thread.  And for God's sake, please DO NOT give any links to wherever it is that Cook finds such people.

+1    ;)
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on June 28, 2015, 03:46:46 AM
Notice:

I did not post any links. I ain't that crazy.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: nmiwrecks on July 08, 2015, 11:53:47 AM
Does anybody have contact information for "Sluggo"?  WW is proving to be as elusive as another fellow we are looking for.   :)   Thanks.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on July 08, 2015, 04:16:23 PM
Sluggo has responded to my 2-3 emails over the past few years, but it takes a while. I'll email you what I have.
Title: Decoded Letters
Post by: K_3456 on August 01, 2015, 07:39:42 PM
Hi. I'm new here. Just learning the basics here from you guys who are evidently far along in your research. My first interest in the subject stems from unsolved mysteries, watched as a kid. Googling around, not too many sites come up with basic objective information/overview.

Anyway, looking at the dbcooperletters.com site - are the letters considered to be legitimate/authentic?
Still combing through the forum, so, sorry if this has been discussed.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on August 01, 2015, 07:43:27 PM
Hello, and welcome to the forum. I'm trying to keep the topics to a minimum. it looks like it will work here..

Nobody has proven the letters to be from the hijacker, it's hard to say if they came from him. I always thought he would sign them Dan Cooper vs DB Cooper...
Title: Re: Decoded Letters
Post by: georger on August 02, 2015, 12:18:55 AM
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Hi. I'm new here. Just learning the basics here from you guys who are evidently far along in your research. My first interest in the subject stems from unsolved mysteries, watched as a kid. Googling around, not too many sites come up with basic objective information/overview.

Anyway, looking at the dbcooperletters.com site - are the letters considered to be legitimate/authentic?
Still combing through the forum, so, sorry if this has been discussed.

Hi & welcome. My view is about the same as Shutters. Others (like Cook for example) seem to be convinced the Letters are real. The Seattle Office of the FBI has to my knowledge never released any public statement concerning the letters. Whether the letters are real or not has it lead to any concrete suspects the FBI looked into, or a new lead of any kind?  ???   :) 
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on August 02, 2015, 02:54:07 AM
Greetings Newbie!

Welcome. Here are some tips on the letters. I have written extensively on them, and have a full chapter on them in my book at Amazon - ten bucks: DB Cooper and the FBI - A Case Study of America's Only Unsolved Skyjacking.

You can also go to the Mountain News. I have about 60 pieces on DB C posted there.  Google Mountain News and DB Cooper.

I don't think the letters are from the skyjacker, but others think so, including the enigmatic "Al DI."  Who his guy is a mystery, and could be an FBI agent playing games or trying to ferret information out of his agency.

The letters certainly reveal other kinds of mysteries that tell us about the nature and scope of the investigation. The letters are generally lumped into two categories. One are the pithy, haiku-like letters, and these are the ones that attract the most attention. They are the most enticing and sublime. All the other letters are from folks who are easy to dismiss. They are egotistical and poorly written.

The last of the Core Four was sent to the Oregonian in the week after the skyjacking. It was a paste-up job using letters from the June and July 1970 Playboy. Al Di has "decoded" them. Interesting analysis.  This fourth letter was not published by the Oregonian, but was sent to them, who forwarded it to the FBI in Seattle. Astonishingly, the letter was posted the next day in the Billings Gazette, in Montana, presumably to smoke out any accomplices Paul Cini might have had in the area, as Cini's skyjacking touched down in Great Falls on November 11, 1971.

This was before fax machines and the such, so the FBI had to photograph the letter and then courier it by plane down to Billings. All in less than 24-hours, too, so the FBI clearly took this letter seriously, at least as a ruse for any Cini compatriots.

Many in the FBI consider Paul Cini as the first skyjacker (two weeks before Cooper's) who was ready to parachute away, but I consider Dan Cooper to be the originator of the classic 727 getaway, as Cini was using a DC-8 and it only had a side hatch, not an aft stairway.

I have also written extensively on these "copy cats," and discuss if there might have been a link between them.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: K_3456 on August 03, 2015, 10:08:33 AM
Thanks, guys. That's about what I thought. The "core four" letters seem different in attitude from db's attitude on the plane, somehow. I will download your book, Bruce.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on August 03, 2015, 03:21:41 PM
Thanks, K.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: 377 on August 03, 2015, 04:49:34 PM
Bruce wrote" This was before fax machines and the such, so the FBI had to photograph the letter and then courier it by plane down to Billings. All in less than 24-hours, too, so the FBI clearly took this letter seriously, at least as a ruse for any Cini compatriots."

Not so Bruce. Fax machines have been around a LONG time. From Wikipedia "Scottish inventor Alexander Bain worked on chemical mechanical fax type devices and in 1846 was able to reproduce graphic signs in laboratory experiments. He received the first fax patent in 1843. Frederick Bakewell made several improvements on Bain's design and demonstrated a telefax machine."

Law enforcement agencies used vacuum tube fax machines to send images over phone lines routinely in the 1950s and early 60s.

From
comp.dcom.telecom:

"Western Union public fax services,Western Union ran several advertisments in the New York Times for its
public "wirefax"/"telefax" service.  I found ads for 1959-1962.

The maximum size of a document was 8.5" x 11", and the transmitted
portion was roughly 1" shorter on all sides (7.5" x 10").
Transmission took five minutes.

The service was offered in New York City, Washington DC, Chicago, Los
Angeles, and San Francisco.  In the time span I checked no additional
cities were added.

The material had to be taken to a Western Union office.  WU would pick
it up at an additional charge for their messenger.  It would be
delivered by Western Union messenger without charge to any place
within the city limits of the destination city.

The first 4" vertically between NYC and Chicago cost $2.40 and 40
cents for each additional inch.  plus Federal tax.  The first 4"
between NYC and San Francisco cost $4.00 and 65 cents for each
additional inch plus Federal Tax.

So, a full page letter (with margins) to Chicago would cost about
$3.60 per page, to San Francisco would cost about $5.95 per page, both
plus Federal Tax (10%?), in 1960 dollars, plus the expense of delivery
to the central WU office.  By today's dollars that seems quite
pricey."

377
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: 377 on August 03, 2015, 04:51:56 PM
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Sluggo has responded to my 2-3 emails over the past few years, but it takes a while. I'll email you what I have.

Sure wish we could entice Sluggo to join the forum. Great guy. Deep thinker. Doesn't drink the Kool Aid, but more importantly, when Sluggo hears hoofbeats he thinks horses not unicorns or Duane Weber.

377
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on August 03, 2015, 05:19:33 PM
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Sluggo has responded to my 2-3 emails over the past few years, but it takes a while. I'll email you what I have.

Sure wish we could entice Sluggo to join the forum. Great guy. Deep thinker. Doesn't drink the Kool Aid, but more importantly, when Sluggo hears hoofbeats he thinks horses not unicorns or Duane Weber.

377

Great!  8)
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on August 03, 2015, 06:43:08 PM
Has anyone had contact with Sluggo in the last couple years?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on August 04, 2015, 02:32:52 AM
Yet once again, I stand corrected.

Thanks, Three-Seven-Seven.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on August 04, 2015, 02:44:34 AM
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Bruce wrote" This was before fax machines and the such, so the FBI had to photograph the letter and then courier it by plane down to Billings. All in less than 24-hours, too, so the FBI clearly took this letter seriously, at least as a ruse for any Cini compatriots."

Not so Bruce. Fax machines have been around a LONG time. From Wikipedia "Scottish inventor Alexander Bain worked on chemical mechanical fax type devices and in 1846 was able to reproduce graphic signs in laboratory experiments. He received the first fax patent in 1843. Frederick Bakewell made several improvements on Bain's design and demonstrated a telefax machine."

Law enforcement agencies used vacuum tube fax machines to send images over phone lines routinely in the 1950s and early 60s.

From
comp.dcom.telecom:

"Western Union public fax services,Western Union ran several advertisments in the New York Times for its
public "wirefax"/"telefax" service.  I found ads for 1959-1962.

The maximum size of a document was 8.5" x 11", and the transmitted
portion was roughly 1" shorter on all sides (7.5" x 10").
Transmission took five minutes.

The service was offered in New York City, Washington DC, Chicago, Los
Angeles, and San Francisco.  In the time span I checked no additional
cities were added.

The material had to be taken to a Western Union office.  WU would pick
it up at an additional charge for their messenger.  It would be
delivered by Western Union messenger without charge to any place
within the city limits of the destination city.

The first 4" vertically between NYC and Chicago cost $2.40 and 40
cents for each additional inch.  plus Federal tax.  The first 4"
between NYC and San Francisco cost $4.00 and 65 cents for each
additional inch plus Federal Tax.

So, a full page letter (with margins) to Chicago would cost about
$3.60 per page, to San Francisco would cost about $5.95 per page, both
plus Federal Tax (10%?), in 1960 dollars, plus the expense of delivery
to the central WU office.  By today's dollars that seems quite
pricey."

377

+1  :)
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on August 04, 2015, 10:36:32 PM
I see 377 got his fax correct  ;D :D ;)
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on August 05, 2015, 01:49:11 AM
Ha, ha, Shut...but you're correct.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: 377 on August 05, 2015, 06:19:07 PM
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I see 377 got his fax correct  ;D :D ;)

[quote author=Shutter link=topic=18.msg6679#msg66

Good one Shutter. 😀
 
Back in the day (1960s) I got two Western Union surplus Desk Fax machines for $5 each. A few minor repairs got them working. You'd put the original on a rotating drum where it was point scanned by a photocell. The receiving unit used electrically sensitive paper which could be etched by a spark. Connect them over a phone line and watch the fun as the receiving unit synched up its drum to match the sending unit. Then pure magic followed. Under a hissing and spitting blue electric arc, a negative of the original image would be "printed". Lots of acrid smoke too. Quite a show for $10.

377
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on August 05, 2015, 06:40:48 PM
Is this it?


(http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/deskfax/viewL.jpg)
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: 377 on August 11, 2015, 02:17:33 PM
You bet, that's it exactly Shutter. Fairly small unit. Really acrid smell as the sputtering spark etched an image in the rotating drum. Smoke too. You felt like something real was happening, none of this sanitary dry xerography stuff. Smoke, flames, action. YES! And vacuum tubes too. Sweet little machines.

So does anybody besides me think Brian's parents could have planted the bills for him to "find"?  I admit it's a far out theory but it's not impossible. I keep thinking about the incredible coincidence of Brian digging in the exact right spot.

I wish there was a way to confirm or debunk the claims that other kids found bills nearby while fishing.

I am not convinced there was a debris field of shredded currency. Has anyone found proof that there was?

377

Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on August 11, 2015, 02:27:49 PM
That's a tough sell. the money has so many problems. if it was planted what would be the reasoning?

I don't know much about the father, but he looks like he's been around the block a time or two...

I'm not sold on a debris field either. so many unanswered questions and mystery surrounding the money. I don't know if a conclusion will be found unless Cooper is found?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on August 11, 2015, 02:33:59 PM
Quote
I don't know if a conclusion will be found unless Cooper is found?

In all likelihood, we could find out who Cooper was and still have no idea how/why/when the money came to Tina Bar.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on August 11, 2015, 03:25:00 PM
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I wish there was a way to confirm or debunk the claims that other kids found bills nearby while fishing.

I am not convinced there was a debris field of shredded currency. Has anyone found proof that there was?

377

What?  You don't believe the FBI?  I'm shocked!

Oh, right, you want proof...hmmmmmmmm....
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: 377 on August 11, 2015, 07:05:11 PM
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That's a tough sell. the money has so many problems. if it was planted what would be the reasoning?

I don't know much about the father, but he looks like he's been around the block a time or two...

I'm not sold on a debris field either. so many unanswered questions and mystery surrounding the money.

Let's say that Brian's parents found Coopers body and loot. Both seriously degraded. They conceal the body and take the money. They wonder, can we spend it? Will someone else claim it? If we come forward they will ask where we found it and whether there was a body. Messy indeed.

They decide on a test. Young Brian will innocently "find" a portion of the loot far from the actual location where they found it. They will then see whether they can keep it and whether it's negotiable or otherwise valuable.

377

Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on August 11, 2015, 10:58:24 PM
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Let's say that Brian's parents found Coopers body and loot. Both seriously degraded. They conceal the body and take the money. They wonder, can we spend it? Will someone else claim it? If we come forward they will ask where we found it and whether there was a body. Messy indeed.

They decide on a test. Young Brian will innocently "find" a portion of the loot far from the actual location where they found it. They will then see whether they can keep it and whether it's negotiable or otherwise valuable.

377

Whew, that's a stretch. But possible!

But you met Brian. Whatcha think? The guy I met seemed like a straight shooter and not part of a scam.

Why not tell the world that you found the money and body and get to appear in a million TV shows, docs, etc???
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: nmiwrecks on August 11, 2015, 11:03:21 PM
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That's a tough sell. the money has so many problems. if it was planted what would be the reasoning?

I don't know much about the father, but he looks like he's been around the block a time or two...

I'm not sold on a debris field either. so many unanswered questions and mystery surrounding the money.

Let's say that Brian's parents found Coopers body and loot. Both seriously degraded. They conceal the body and take the money. They wonder, can we spend it? Will someone else claim it? If we come forward they will ask where we found it and whether there was a body. Messy indeed.

They decide on a test. Young Brian will innocently "find" a portion of the loot far from the actual location where they found it. They will then see whether they can keep it and whether it's negotiable or otherwise valuable.

377
That is a possibility.  It's maddening to think that there could be people out there that could lead authorities to the body and solve the case.  It's unlikely, but possible.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on August 12, 2015, 01:29:35 AM
I think you guys have been watching WAY too much TV.....

...but if my remote viewing was up to snuff, I could put this issue to rest!

Just sayin'...
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on August 12, 2015, 10:34:47 AM
Quote
..but if my remote viewing was up to snuff, I could put this issue to rest!

Perhaps we could jump in a Delorean and go back in time... 8)


Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on August 12, 2015, 05:23:37 PM
Road Trip!!!
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on August 12, 2015, 05:32:15 PM
Time circuits have been set..... :o
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: nmiwrecks on August 12, 2015, 11:57:03 PM
This case really seems to polarize people who research it.  Researchers divide into either "he lived" or "he died" camps.  Or, "he had" or "did not have" parachute training.  What other questions about this case polarize people?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on August 13, 2015, 12:10:18 AM
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This case really seems to polarize people who research it.  Researchers divide into either "he lived" or "he died" camps.  Or, "he had" or "did not have" parachute training.  What other questions about this case polarize people?

I am polarised around him not being Chinese! ?  :)
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: nmiwrecks on August 13, 2015, 09:02:44 AM
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This case really seems to polarize people who research it.  Researchers divide into either "he lived" or "he died" camps.  Or, "he had" or "did not have" parachute training.  What other questions about this case polarize people?

I am polarised around him not being Chinese! ?  :)
Again, I find myself agreeing with georger because they didn't find a sample of Mongolian beef on his tie!   ;D 

Another way people polarize is suspects.  They seem to gravitate towards one, or fervently deny all of them.  I have to admit, I'm as polarized as anybody here.  I think the Cooper suspect probably died from the jump.  I think he didn't have much skydiving experience or aviation knowledge.  I have a favorite suspect and mostly dismiss the others.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on August 13, 2015, 01:22:56 PM
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This case really seems to polarize people who research it.  Researchers divide into either "he lived" or "he died" camps.  Or, "he had" or "did not have" parachute training.  What other questions about this case polarize people?

I am polarised around him not being Chinese! ?  :)
Again, I find myself agreeing with georger because they didn't find a sample of Mongolian beef on his tie!   ;D 

Another way people polarize is suspects.  They seem to gravitate towards one, or fervently deny all of them.  I have to admit, I'm as polarized as anybody here.  I think the Cooper suspect probably died from the jump.  I think he didn't have much skydiving experience or aviation knowledge.  I have a favorite suspect and mostly dismiss the others.

I must say that I am as polarized as you and Georger.  But I don't even have a suspect, favorite or otherwise.  And I'm not going to speculate.  I'm just simply polarized.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on August 13, 2015, 02:35:21 PM
Can anyone be Bi-Polarized  ;D :D ;) :)
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on August 13, 2015, 03:17:57 PM
Good one, Shut.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: 377 on August 13, 2015, 05:59:21 PM
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Let's say that Brian's parents found Coopers body and loot. Both seriously degraded. They conceal the body and take the money. They wonder, can we spend it? Will someone else claim it? If we come forward they will ask where we found it and whether there was a body. Messy indeed.

They decide on a test. Young Brian will innocently "find" a portion of the loot far from the actual location where they found it. They will then see whether they can keep it and whether it's negotiable or otherwise valuable.

377

Whew, that's a stretch. But possible!

But you met Brian. Whatcha think? The guy I met seemed like a straight shooter and not part of a scam.

Why not tell the world that you found the money and body and get to appear in a million TV shows, docs, etc???

Brian wasn't a liar. He didn't have to be. He was just a young kid who dug in a sandbar to help his parents prepare a campfire site. What I am wondering (and its just a guess) is whether his parents could have  subtly led him to the site where THEY had buried the money. "Brian honey, lets build a campfire right here, can you clear the sand a little bit?"

377
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: nmiwrecks on August 13, 2015, 06:39:05 PM
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Let's say that Brian's parents found Coopers body and loot. Both seriously degraded. They conceal the body and take the money. They wonder, can we spend it? Will someone else claim it? If we come forward they will ask where we found it and whether there was a body. Messy indeed.

They decide on a test. Young Brian will innocently "find" a portion of the loot far from the actual location where they found it. They will then see whether they can keep it and whether it's negotiable or otherwise valuable.

377

Whew, that's a stretch. But possible!

But you met Brian. Whatcha think? The guy I met seemed like a straight shooter and not part of a scam.

Why not tell the world that you found the money and body and get to appear in a million TV shows, docs, etc???

Brian wasn't a liar. He didn't have to be. He was just a young kid who dug in a sandbar to help his parents prepare a campfire site. What I am wondering (and its just a guess) is whether his parents could have  subtly led him to the site where THEY had buried the money. "Brian honey, lets build a campfire right here, can you clear the sand a little bit?"

377
One of the things that hold me back on this idea is that if the Ingrams found Cooper's body or items involved in the case (briefcase bomb, parachute, etc.), they could easily have capitalized on that find.  Can you imagine what a network or media outlet would pay for the exclusive on that?  They could have parlayed that find into hundreds of thousands of dollars, possibly.  It doesn't make any sense for them to remain silent.  There would be no benefit for them.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on August 14, 2015, 12:31:52 AM
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Let's say that Brian's parents found Coopers body and loot. Both seriously degraded. They conceal the body and take the money. They wonder, can we spend it? Will someone else claim it? If we come forward they will ask where we found it and whether there was a body. Messy indeed.

They decide on a test. Young Brian will innocently "find" a portion of the loot far from the actual location where they found it. They will then see whether they can keep it and whether it's negotiable or otherwise valuable.

377

Whew, that's a stretch. But possible!

But you met Brian. Whatcha think? The guy I met seemed like a straight shooter and not part of a scam.

Why not tell the world that you found the money and body and get to appear in a million TV shows, docs, etc???

Brian wasn't a liar. He didn't have to be. He was just a young kid who dug in a sandbar to help his parents prepare a campfire site. What I am wondering (and its just a guess) is whether his parents could have  subtly led him to the site where THEY had buried the money. "Brian honey, lets build a campfire right here, can you clear the sand a little bit?"

377
One of the things that hold me back on this idea is that if the Ingrams found Cooper's body or items involved in the case (briefcase bomb, parachute, etc.), they could easily have capitalized on that find.  Can you imagine what a network or media outlet would pay for the exclusive on that?  They could have parlayed that find into hundreds of thousands of dollars, possibly.  It doesn't make any sense for them to remain silent.  There would be no benefit for them.

A conspiracy theory is always lurking.

It is lucky Brian dig right on the spot where money was under the sand. One in 100 billion shot I would say.

Brian was probably not in on any plot but just a unknowing tool in a plot, if there was a plot or more we havent been told. The Ingram tale is not Crystal clear! In fact, they witheld bills (that is in the record) until one of the Ingrams ratted Harold and Pat out. What they all wanted was a reward. The FBI got all huffy about that! End result was a lawsuit and the FBI losing most of the money/evidence! That's the screwed up world we live in ... nothing is Crystal Ingram clear!
   
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on August 14, 2015, 12:37:48 AM
Quote
nothing is Crystal Ingram clear!

+1  8)
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on August 14, 2015, 04:31:00 PM
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Quote
nothing is Crystal Ingram clear!

+1  8)

Chrystal Ingram gave a more cogent story vs. Harold's nervous narrative about campfires and miracles: Crystal simply said: The kids were playing in the sand poking around as kids do!  She claimed that her daughter Denise and Brian were literally side by side poking around in the sand. The whole group had been strolling down the beach, talking. After some distance walking-strolling with the kids, they took a break from walking. The kids went to playing in the sand in the area where they had stopped, Pat and Crystal went ahead a short distance talking about personal matters (which included Crystal's impending divorce from Harold's brother ...), and Harold was standing by himself looking around a short distance from where the kids were now playing in the sand. And it was Brian who called out something like: "Come look at this". The women turned around and looked back at the kids, Harold walked over to where the kids were now digging, and it was Harold who yelled out something like: 'Hey! Come look at this. It's money!'.

Harold's story was a rambling nervous narrative that involved 'campfire'! His wife Pat stood by stone silent, sullen, stern look on her face, ... wanting a reward for the family and she made that very clear!

I dont know whose story is correct. Crystal's story (to me) is the more ordinary and believable. At length Crystal said 'any reward should include her daughter 'Denise' because she said 'Denise and Brian were there together and made the discovery jointly'. Pat and Harold got an attorney. Crystal and Denise were left out completely...

And of course Crystal ratted Pat and Harold out to Himmelsbach for not turning in all of the bills. It was Crystal who then delivered more bills to Himmeslbach ... in behalf of Pat and Harold (the guy with the nervous rambling narrative)!
   


       
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: 377 on August 14, 2015, 05:47:50 PM
I just find it more probable that Brian was subtly led to the money by someone who knew it was there than he found it by chance.

I'm looking at the odds of a random find and find it highly improbable, but of course not impossible.

Might Harold's nervous rambling have been an indication that he planted it? Why be nervous about an innocent kid's random find?

Might some of the money initially withheld from the FBI have never been at Tina Bar?

I have one of the twenty dollar bills that Brian found. I look at it often wondering how in the hell it got to Tina Bar. I just can't figure it out.

The only reason I even mention the wildly speculative theory about Brian being led to the find by someone in the know is that it could explain a highly improbable find and also explain how the money got to Tina Bar. A two fer.

377


Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on August 15, 2015, 12:18:15 PM
I don't thinks it's odd they decided to have a campfire on the beach, but with conflicting stories, and both making sense. which one is the truth, or does it really matter?

The question would be why do we have multiple stories?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on August 15, 2015, 03:20:24 PM
Indeed, why?

I'm not glib here, but the multiple stories form the Ingram clan may reveal more about the power of big cases and famous crimes to distort people's thinking. The Vortex seems to be a real phenomena, and not just a way to explain Jo Weber.

As for multiple stories at T-Bar, look at the feds and the Fazios - they don't agree on anything. Himms, McPheters, Dorwin, Al Fazio - they all tell wildly divergent stories, and we have no physical evidence to back up any of them!  How does THAT happen?

Then add in Galen and his teenage fishermen, and this thing just keeps growing. There seems to be no end to it.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on August 15, 2015, 03:23:55 PM
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I have one of the twenty dollar bills that Brian found. I look at it often wondering how in the hell it got to Tina Bar. I just can't figure it out.

377


Three-Seven-Seven, have you tried talking to the money yet? Close your eyes and let it tell you what the story is.  Too woo-woo? Drink more wine, then.....then try it.

Seriously. I'd be curious to see and hear what comes up for you.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on August 15, 2015, 05:31:34 PM
Quote
Three-Seven-Seven, have you tried talking to the money yet?

I think I spotted 377 talking to one of the Cooper bills.  ;D :D ;)

(http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee380/dave767/377_zpslofhjice.gif)
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on August 16, 2015, 12:25:39 AM
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I don't thinks it's odd they decided to have a campfire on the beach, but with conflicting stories, and both making sense. which one is the truth, or does it really matter?

The question would be why do we have multiple stories?

Harold gave one story to the FBI. Pat sat by sullen not commenting. What story (stories) did Harold or Pat give others privately, before the FBI and news conference fame set in? Nobody has checked that out. We know that Pat, Harold, and Crystal (at minimum) gave accounts of the finding to a number of people prior to the FBI even being called. Crystal called several radio stations in order to enhance her chances at a reward after the meeting with Himmelsbach. Did Pat also? These people needed money, not a bunch of DB Cooper games!

Then Crystal surfaces and gives her own story, not only to the FBI but to news people! That is documented. Why news people ..... there's the rub:  because THEY ALL WANTED A REWARD once they realised they were not going to get the money back. Did they think they were loaning it to the FBI?  :) tisk tisk  :)  One minute their kids are pulling out a wad of free $20 twenties and are headed to redeem them at a bank .. the next minute they are having to turn it all over to scowling guys in suits with guns with no promise of even a reward ... in some famous piece of Unreality called the DB Cooper Hijacking case! WTF! How unfair and crazy does it get for the hourly blue collar worker! ???   

They wanted money! They needed money! Either the bills back OR a healthy reward. Denied both that's where the trouble began. They lobbied hard for a REWARD with anyone who would listen but no reward was forthcoming, so to a lawyer they go, and five times around the Horn they finally arrive in Paradise! Brian still lives in Paradise!

These are common people, with common concerns. No Nobel prizes or college degrees, not even a free Carnegie Make a Speech course at night school! Just working folks out on a walk on a free beach (when you can't afford a movie or the gas to go to Seattle!).

Does this bring the Ingrams more into focus? And their motives and their stories. One story for Harold. Another story for Crystal who also happens to be in the process of divorcing Harold's brother! She needs money! The Ingrams need MONEY! So ............. off to a lawyer they go ................ to get money for all! Never mind that it will take five lifetimes and 20 bankruptcies and evictions to get it !!!

Folks this aint rocket science!

Jack n Jill went up the hill to fetch a pale of water ... Jack fell down and broke his crown .... and ....  you can probably forget about complicated conspiracies and back stories involving drugs and pimps and some drug dealer the Ingrams used who knew DB Cooper who also was on drugs traveling in the same circle, and some reverse-sting to send the FBI off in some improbable direction (discovery of my loot!) and yada yada yada yada ...    :D The Ingrams are common folks and a divided family with lots of troubles at the time who are badly in need of infusion of cash. The last thing they need is more confusion, calamity, and less money with more attention directed their way! Harold has an outstanding warrant waiting in (New Mexico?) he has not settled. Yada yada yada yada.

If this was a conspiracy it was the screwiest conspiracy since Laural and Hardy bought Goslow Maine for $2.00 dollars only to inherit outstanding liens totaling $4 million dollars!    :D

Only in America could this happen!  ;)
 



     
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: MarkBennett on August 16, 2015, 07:17:55 PM
As much of a tale in bureaucratic incompetence as anything.

If the bills had just been bills not involved in any crime, it's simple.  You take them to the bank, the bank figures out how many bills there are.  The Ingraham families (either, both or whatever) deposit them.  The bank sends the bills to be destroyed and new bills are created  to replace them.

If they are evidence, they could take them to the bank, the bank figures out how many bills there are.  The Ingraham families (either, both or whatever) deposit them.  Then, instead of sending the bills to be destroyed the FBI takes them as evidence, but new bills are created to replace them.  If the case ends, the FBI sends them to be destroyed.  Everybody's happy, right?

But, no!  Lawsuits and family squabbling instead.  Just a waste of time and money!!

On a related point, I'm not sure why the Ingrahams were entitled to the bills at all.  I thought the finder of lost property has more rights to it than anyone else in the world EXCEPT THE RIGHTFUL OWNER.  It would seem to me Seafirst (or more likely, Seafirst's insurance company) would be entitled to the bills.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on August 16, 2015, 07:27:08 PM
It's my understanding the insurance company did get a large amount of the find. the FBI lost in this case getting the least amount....

Thinking about it, I doubt a bank would accept them. they would probably tell you to send them to the Treasury Department...
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: 377 on August 17, 2015, 06:49:58 PM
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Quote
Three-Seven-Seven, have you tried talking to the money yet?

I think I spotted 377 talking to one of the Cooper bills.  ;D :D ;)

(http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee380/dave767/377_zpslofhjice.gif)

Nice pic shutter!!

I have indeed talked to my twenty but it stubbornly refuses to engage in a dialogue. I gave it clean dry home but no gratitude, no cooperation.

You know those twenties, street bills, never did have the class of a hundred.

377

Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on August 18, 2015, 03:33:20 AM
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It's my understanding the insurance company did get a large amount of the find. the FBI lost in this case getting the least amount....

Thinking about it, I doubt a bank would accept them. they would probably tell you to send them to the Treasury Department...


Actually I think its the insurance company, first. The FBI held on to the bills under the belief they were evidence and I actually agree with that concept but some Judge had a different logic. That is way beyond my pay grade - I would have had the whole Justice Dept up in arms over that and appealed to the Supreme Court if necessary in defense of the FBI's rights to hold on to important EVIDENCE! But it didnt go their way and they didnt appeal, evidently.

As for the Ingrams they lucked out imho.

Why didnt the Ingrams just go to a bank ?  Beats me. Would the bank have run a few serial numbers and found out it was Cooper money? We will never know. The story is Harold talked to some of his mates at work and one of them suggested contact LE? He called the Sherriff's office and they told him to call the FBI! I dont know if this story is true ... ?

Why didnt the Ingrams write a book about it!?

So many questions - so little time!  :o ;) ;)   
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on August 18, 2015, 11:08:07 AM
Did the Fazio's ever object to the Ingram's wanting the money. Like Mark said, it was found on there property?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on August 18, 2015, 02:21:51 PM
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Did the Fazio's ever object to the Ingram's wanting the money. Like Mark said, it was found on there property?

No, not that I am aware. Why would they? They are the finders. I think they were a little upset when the FBI showed up and closed off their road but once things settled down they joined the party, as it were, and they played a role in the excavation. Of course one question lurking at the time: were the Fazios hiding the money? Or did Fazio sand contain the money somewhere else on their property? I dont know if this was explored at all? I think the FBI came to the opinion that the Fazios were not culpable in any way. But Im no expert on any of this - its conjecture on my part!

Al Fazio said he thought the money had arrived with the last tide the week before being found? He thought it was a recent arrival ...


 
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on August 18, 2015, 02:48:28 PM
I was just wondering what Fazio thought about the find. it was found on his property, I believe he would have had the rights to it. even with permission the Ingram's were supposed to be camping, and not treasure hunting...


But, then again...

common law has a fairly definitive "finders-keepers" bent to it.

That's true even when the finding is done on someone else's property, as long as the finder had permission to be there, courts have established.

Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on August 18, 2015, 03:00:44 PM
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Did the Fazio's ever object to the Ingram's wanting the money. Like Mark said, it was found on there property?

No, not that I am aware. Why would they? They are the finders. I think they were a little upset when the FBI showed up and closed off their road but once things settled down they joined the party, as it were, and they played a role in the excavation. Of course one question lurking at the time: were the Fazios hiding the money? Or did Fazio sand contain the money somewhere else on their property? I dont know if this was explored at all? I think the FBI came to the opinion that the Fazios were not culpable in any way. But Im no expert on any of this - its conjecture on my part!

Al Fazio said he thought the money had arrived with the last tide the week before being found? He thought it was a recent arrival ...

And where did the sand come from that covered it?  That sand was working its way downhill from somewhere.

Are you sure that the Fazio's owned the land to the water's edge, which changed hourly?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on August 18, 2015, 03:13:45 PM
Hmm, well, I'm sure there is an area considered public property on the shoreline. I think the money falls outside of that perimeter if it was found up in, or near the treeline? that puts it some 60+ feet away from average water levels?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on August 19, 2015, 03:52:17 AM
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Did the Fazio's ever object to the Ingram's wanting the money. Like Mark said, it was found on there property?

No, not that I am aware. Why would they? They are the finders. I think they were a little upset when the FBI showed up and closed off their road but once things settled down they joined the party, as it were, and they played a role in the excavation. Of course one question lurking at the time: were the Fazios hiding the money? Or did Fazio sand contain the money somewhere else on their property? I dont know if this was explored at all? I think the FBI came to the opinion that the Fazios were not culpable in any way. But Im no expert on any of this - its conjecture on my part!

Al Fazio said he thought the money had arrived with the last tide the week before being found? He thought it was a recent arrival ...

And where did the sand come from that covered it?  That sand was working its way downhill from somewhere.

Are you sure that the Fazio's owned the land to the water's edge, which changed hourly?

I have no idea here their land stopped. I think at the water's edge? Sand during high water also travels laterally.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on August 19, 2015, 12:35:31 PM
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Did the Fazio's ever object to the Ingram's wanting the money. Like Mark said, it was found on there property?

No, not that I am aware. Why would they? They are the finders. I think they were a little upset when the FBI showed up and closed off their road but once things settled down they joined the party, as it were, and they played a role in the excavation. Of course one question lurking at the time: were the Fazios hiding the money? Or did Fazio sand contain the money somewhere else on their property? I dont know if this was explored at all? I think the FBI came to the opinion that the Fazios were not culpable in any way. But Im no expert on any of this - its conjecture on my part!

Al Fazio said he thought the money had arrived with the last tide the week before being found? He thought it was a recent arrival ...

And where did the sand come from that covered it?  That sand was working its way downhill from somewhere.

Are you sure that the Fazio's owned the land to the water's edge, which changed hourly?

I have no idea here their land stopped. I think at the water's edge? Sand during high water also travels laterally.

Okay, to be more precise, the sand is always working its way downhill and downstream due to the natural forces of gravity and water.  If the sand moves otherwise, it is due to "un-natural" forces of such things as dredges.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on August 19, 2015, 02:16:04 PM
Floods, and higher tides could bring sediments onto the beach as well....
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on August 19, 2015, 02:57:30 PM
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Floods, and higher tides could bring sediments onto the beach as well....

They can only bring them from upstream or from a higher water level to a lower water level.

The sand is always moving to a lower energy state, in this case a lower elevation above sea level.  If the sand is moving to a higher energy state, something (such as a dredge or other human activity) has to add that additional energy to achieve a higher energy state.

Actually, the reason that water runs downhill is because it is going to a lower energy state.  And in going downhill, water can lose energy by going through the electrical generating turbines of a dam, by eroding the landscape, or just dissipating energy as "heat" as it goes through a rapids in a river.

No physical process is 100 percent efficient.  If that were true, we could have Perpetual Motion Machines.  As Mother Nature operates today, they are simply not possible.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on August 20, 2015, 04:56:48 AM

Copy/Paste

Anglers called the state Department of Natural Resources complaining that the Fazios put a fence on public land.
A survey for the Fazios by Minister & Glaeser Surveying of Vancouver determined the family owns down to 4.385 feet Columbia River Datum.
Steven Ivey, aquatic land surveyor for the state Department of Natural Resources, said Tuesday he was asked to review the survey and found no flaws.
Columbia River Datum is the measuring stick used by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration to determine river height.

Ivey said the line of mean high tide is normally the boundary used to determine privately owned uplands and publicly owned beach.
The Columbia River is complicated due to the interplay of tidal influence and streamflow released out of Bonneville Dam, Ivey said.
Because dredge spoils are intermittently deposited at Tena Bar, the boundary is not determined at the vegetation line, he said.
"At the Fazios, it's complicated and site-specific,'' Ivey said.
The Columbia drops to 4.38 feet in July and mostly stays below that height until about Thanksgiving, according to tables compiled by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration.

Only the beach lower than 4.38 feet is public.

"These people would tell me it's public property,'' Fazio said. "Now, I know where the boundaries are. It's private. I feel like I've got a bullseye on back. If someone gets hurt, I'm liable.''
"We're asking people nicely to leave,'' he added. "They can go to Frenchmen's Bar or Caterpillar Island, which is owned by DNR. There's public land at Davis Bar, too.''
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on August 20, 2015, 03:16:59 PM
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Copy/Paste

Anglers called the state Department of Natural Resources complaining that the Fazios put a fence on public land.
A survey for the Fazios by Minister & Glaeser Surveying of Vancouver determined the family owns down to 4.385 feet Columbia River Datum.
Steven Ivey, aquatic land surveyor for the state Department of Natural Resources, said Tuesday he was asked to review the survey and found no flaws.
Columbia River Datum is the measuring stick used by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration to determine river height.

Ivey said the line of mean high tide is normally the boundary used to determine privately owned uplands and publicly owned beach.
The Columbia River is complicated due to the interplay of tidal influence and streamflow released out of Bonneville Dam, Ivey said.
Because dredge spoils are intermittently deposited at Tena Bar, the boundary is not determined at the vegetation line, he said.
"At the Fazios, it's complicated and site-specific,'' Ivey said.
The Columbia drops to 4.38 feet in July and mostly stays below that height until about Thanksgiving, according to tables compiled by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration.

Only the beach lower than 4.38 feet is public.

"These people would tell me it's public property,'' Fazio said. "Now, I know where the boundaries are. It's private. I feel like I've got a bullseye on back. If someone gets hurt, I'm liable.''
"We're asking people nicely to leave,'' he added. "They can go to Frenchmen's Bar or Caterpillar Island, which is owned by DNR. There's public land at Davis Bar, too.''

Fazio has a real point there, however in a situation like this defending it can be a total PITA and could be expensive if someone wished to push it .... hope there was no barbed wire or razor wire on his fence or glass on the ground!   :-*  :) :) :)

My family owned land along the DesMoines River once. It was a total pain to deal with jerks trespassing to get to the river.  They would go up and break into the cabin ... the stone in that fireplace had been brought from Dakota where Uncle Burt was an engineer in the Mt Rushmore project ... people chipped large rose quartz stones out of our fireplace! It was endless. We finally closed the whole thing and burned the cabin. There are still initials etcx carved in the oak tress around there from when the family was young ... and the current new owner wont even let me go up there to the old cabin site!

Its my understanding the current just off shore at the Fazio's is strong. Fit that into money deposit equations?
 
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on August 20, 2015, 03:40:03 PM
You always have someone who will ruin things for others. Paul mentioned something about a 20 foot rule. don't know if he was right or not?

The guy on the property you use to own sounds like a prick... :(

Quote
Its my understanding the current just off shore at the Fazio's is strong. Fit that into money deposit equations?

I believe Bruce jumped in the river from there..perhaps he can state something?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on August 20, 2015, 03:59:11 PM
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You always have someone who will ruin things for others. Paul mentioned something about a 20 foot rule. don't know if he was right or not?

The guy on the property you use to own sounds like a prick... :(

Quote
Its my understanding the current just off shore at the Fazio's is strong. Fit that into money deposit equations?

I believe Bruce jumped in the river from there..perhaps he can state something?

The new owner of one of the farms doesnt have much money - he is petrified of getting sued and I cant half blame him for closing things off. Our family owned that land for generations and its still called _________________Section. His stance is "I own it now!" But his big concern is being sued and protecting his stock and his fences. He only owns a fraction of the two sections my family owned. The original two sections has been split into 27 pieces since 1966! It's unreal. The old stone fireplace still stands where the cabin was. We used to have 100+ people at that cabin for celebrations when I was growing up... we even had an old hermit living in it for two winters when I was a kid. The well was still good and he burned wood and coal in the winter. All of my cousins and friends and I used to spend time there camping and fishing etc ... it was a right of passage to do survival stints there growing up! In any event the guy doesn't want me and my grandkids there ... I could have bought all of the land over looking the river near the old cabin for $1.00 from my family in 1966! I wish I had now. My wife and I were miles away at college and we decidided we would never-ever use it! The taxes on it were nothing. I wish I had it today - live and learn.

Yes ask Bruce about swimming at Tina's Bar! Bruce may be one of the people who said the current was very strong right off Tina Bar. ?

   
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on August 20, 2015, 04:13:55 PM
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Its my understanding the current just off shore at the Fazio's is strong. Fit that into money deposit equations?
 

A strong current just off shore at Tina Bar would suggest that the money came down the channel between Caterpillar Island and the mainland.

The water coming down the channel would be slower than the main river current and when they contact each other at the downstream end of Caterpillar Island, the result would be clockwise vortices (as seen from above) which would drive the debris from the channel flow onto the beach.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on August 20, 2015, 04:30:36 PM
Post #1213 from Tina Bar thread on this forum by Bruce Smith....

Quote
As far as I know, I am the only Coop guy to go swimming at T-Bar, as it was 105 degrees when I was there. Water was delightful, but the current was amazingly strong. Scary, even. Very bizarre to be swimming and see a freighter go by. At the Frenchman's Bar County Park, thousands of folks go swimming in the Columbia, and the lifeguards patrol the swimming area on jet skis. Interesting.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on August 21, 2015, 01:24:14 AM
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Its my understanding the current just off shore at the Fazio's is strong. Fit that into money deposit equations?
 

A strong current just off shore at Tina Bar would suggest that the money came down the channel between Caterpillar Island and the mainland.

The water coming down the channel would be slower than the main river current and when they contact each other at the downstream end of Caterpillar Island, the result would be clockwise vortices (as seen from above) which would drive the debris from the channel flow onto the beach.

Big smile!  8)
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on August 21, 2015, 01:25:00 AM
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Post #1213 from Tina Bar thread on this forum by Bruce Smith....

Quote
As far as I know, I am the only Coop guy to go swimming at T-Bar, as it was 105 degrees when I was there. Water was delightful, but the current was amazingly strong. Scary, even. Very bizarre to be swimming and see a freighter go by. At the Frenchman's Bar County Park, thousands of folks go swimming in the Columbia, and the lifeguards patrol the swimming area on jet skis. Interesting.

Thats the one I remember ...
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on August 24, 2015, 10:22:54 PM
I believe it's possible they might have the butts, but keep in mind that they have lost other key items as well.

The flight data is nowhere to be found.
No pictures of the money in the bag.
No pics of the chutes.
They claim they don't know who made the flight path map.
Did anyone ever hear anything about what was found on the seat. they removed it?
Different stories surrounding the money find. (FBI & Ingram's)


They might be good at what they do in certain parts of the FBI, but filing seems to be an issue with them, or keeping tabs on things.

They turned over the case from Alcatraz to the Marshal's in the late 70's, but took 2 years to transfer all the files. then the bombshell of the Marshal finding the reports of a stolen car, and a raft on Angle Island buried in the files? the newspapers wrote for years that no crimes occurred the following day? did they cover it up so the prison would continue to be full proof, or was it an over site? the Cooper case is far from the only nightmare they have encountered....

Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on August 26, 2015, 01:01:09 PM
I was wondering, other than the placement of the clip on the tie, what else shows us that Cooper was left-handed? He wrote notes, did Tina see which hand?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on August 26, 2015, 01:09:00 PM
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I was wondering, other than the placement of the clip on the tie, what else shows us that Cooper was left-handed? He wrote notes, did Tina see which hand?

I think the only note that Cooper actually wrote was the initial one stating that the airliner was being hijacked, etc., and that was written before he boarded the aircraft.  If the stories are correct, he specifically asked for that note back after the flight attendant had shown it to the cockpit crew.  The remaining notes were written by the flight attendants, including one who stayed in the cockpit most of the time and wrote down what she was getting from another flight attendant over the interphone.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: EVickiW on August 26, 2015, 03:59:50 PM
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I was wondering, other than the placement of the clip on the tie, what else shows us that Cooper was left-handed? He wrote notes, did Tina see which hand?

The clip on the tie can only go one way. It clips to the shirt behind it.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on August 26, 2015, 04:04:51 PM
He wrote notes? First I heard.

He had a hand-printed note that he gave to Florence, but whether he wrote it or not, leftie or righty, is not known. After that, he dictated all communications, as far as I know, or used the interphone to talk to the cockpit directly, such as when he told Rataczak to slow the plane down just prior to his jump.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on August 26, 2015, 04:06:27 PM
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I believe it's possible they might have the butts, but keep in mind that they have lost other key items as well.

The flight data is nowhere to be found.
No pictures of the money in the bag.
No pics of the chutes.
They claim they don't know who made the flight path map.
Did anyone ever hear anything about what was found on the seat. they removed it?
Different stories surrounding the money find. (FBI & Ingram's)


They might be good at what they do in certain parts of the FBI, but filing seems to be an issue with them, or keeping tabs on things.

Yup.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on August 26, 2015, 04:08:38 PM
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I was wondering, other than the placement of the clip on the tie, what else shows us that Cooper was left-handed? He wrote notes, did Tina see which hand?

The clip on the tie can only go one way. It clips to the shirt behind it.

Which confuses me, as there's a picture of Lepsy on Ross's website showing a tie clip coming in from the right hand side, whereas the Cooper tie has the clasp coming in from the left-hand side.

http://www.michiganmysteries.com/#/lepsy/4581551701 (http://www.michiganmysteries.com/#/lepsy/4581551701)
http://www.citizensleuths.com/tie-overview.html (http://www.citizensleuths.com/tie-overview.html)

How a tie clip actually attaches to a shirt is something I've never really had to think about...
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on August 26, 2015, 04:09:25 PM
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He wrote notes? First I heard.

He had a hand-printed note that he gave to Florence, but whether he wrote it or not, leftie or righty, is not known. After that, he dictated all communications, as far as I know, or used the interphone to talk to the cockpit directly, such as when he told Rataczak to slow the plane down just prior to his jump.

I conflated the McCoy hijacking with Cooper's.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on August 26, 2015, 04:20:04 PM
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I was wondering, other than the placement of the clip on the tie, what else shows us that Cooper was left-handed? He wrote notes, did Tina see which hand?

The clip on the tie can only go one way. It clips to the shirt behind it.

Which confuses me, as there's a picture of Lepsy on Ross's website showing a tie clip coming in from the right hand side, whereas the Cooper tie has the clasp coming in from the left-hand side.

http://www.michiganmysteries.com/#/lepsy/4581551701 (http://www.michiganmysteries.com/#/lepsy/4581551701)
http://www.citizensleuths.com/tie-overview.html (http://www.citizensleuths.com/tie-overview.html)

How a tie clip actually attaches to a shirt is something I've never really had to think about...

As Vicki was pointing out, in the USA the shirt buttons are on the right hand side of the shirt and the button holes are on the left side.  When buttoning the shirt, the buttons are pulled through the hole with the right hand.  This means that the "tie clip", not the "tie tack", can only be inserted under the outer shirt side (the one with the button holes) if it is inserted from the right hand side.

There is no evidence who put the clip on the tie as shown in those photographs.

Could the picture of Lepsy be reversed or could he be wearing a British or Canadian shirt?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: nmiwrecks on August 26, 2015, 05:33:52 PM
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I was wondering, other than the placement of the clip on the tie, what else shows us that Cooper was left-handed? He wrote notes, did Tina see which hand?

The clip on the tie can only go one way. It clips to the shirt behind it.

Which confuses me, as there's a picture of Lepsy on Ross's website showing a tie clip coming in from the right hand side, whereas the Cooper tie has the clasp coming in from the left-hand side.

http://www.michiganmysteries.com/#/lepsy/4581551701 (http://www.michiganmysteries.com/#/lepsy/4581551701)
http://www.citizensleuths.com/tie-overview.html (http://www.citizensleuths.com/tie-overview.html)

How a tie clip actually attaches to a shirt is something I've never really had to think about...

As Vicki was pointing out, in the USA the shirt buttons are on the right hand side of the shirt and the button holes are on the left side.  When buttoning the shirt, the buttons are pulled through the hole with the right hand.  This means that the "tie clip", not the "tie tack", can only be inserted under the outer shirt side (the one with the button holes) if it is inserted from the right hand side.

There is no evidence who put the clip on the tie as shown in those photographs.

Could the picture of Lepsy be reversed or could he be wearing a British or Canadian shirt?
The photos of Lepsy are not reversed.  He appears to wear his tie clips on the right, except for the attached image, but it's not a good photo and is far from conclusive.

I think Vicki is spot on about clipping the tie under the shirt from the right side.  That makes perfect sense.  Another possibility is a person putting on the clip while facing the tie, like someone dressing someone or a person putting the clip on the tie while it's hanging in front of the dress shirt on a hanger.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on August 26, 2015, 06:42:56 PM
Carr states he took the clip off & on. I'm sure it has been taken off dozens of times and put back on either side...
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on August 26, 2015, 09:30:53 PM
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Carr states he took the clip off & on. I'm sure it has been taken off dozens of times and put back on either side...

From Kaye (http://www.citizensleuths.com/tie-clip.html):

It was observed that the tie clip found with the tie, left marks on the back of the tie once removed. There were very few of these marks indicating that the Fig. 3 Tie tack holes found on Coopers tie. Note permanent depression surrounding hole on right.Fig. 3 Tie tack holes found on Coopers tie. Note permanent depression surrounding hole on right.current tie clip was not removed and replaced very often. The permanent depression left in the tie, by the now absent tie tack, suggested that a single tie tack was present on the tie for an extended period of time.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on August 26, 2015, 09:40:01 PM
Does anyone know why someone would refer to Portland as Portland proper?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on August 26, 2015, 10:18:19 PM
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Does anyone know why someone would refer to Portland as Portland proper?

Can you amplify on what you mean by that question?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on August 26, 2015, 10:27:04 PM
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Does anyone know why someone would refer to Portland as Portland proper?

Can you amplify on what you mean by that question?


Stated that they had not reached Portland proper but were definitely in the suburbs or immediate vicinity therof...
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on August 27, 2015, 12:16:24 AM
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Does anyone know why someone would refer to Portland as Portland proper?

Can you amplify on what you mean by that question?


Stated that they had not reached Portland proper but were definitely in the suburbs or immediate vicinity therof...

Basically, they were just saying that they were not quite in Portland, but that they were very close.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on August 30, 2015, 04:12:24 PM
Eugene was important to "Mr.Cooper" because he was born there 15 November 1927.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on August 30, 2015, 04:18:21 PM
Quote
Eugene was important to "Mr.Cooper" because he was born there 15 November 1927.



Ok, well. some people are interested in the Eugene connection. perhaps you could respond with something of value to this?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on August 30, 2015, 04:48:20 PM
Mr.Cooper's birth name is Miller. Most of them being in the medical field (MD's).
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on August 30, 2015, 04:59:50 PM
what about his "grudge"
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on August 30, 2015, 05:05:50 PM
Which one are you speaking of ?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on August 30, 2015, 05:25:49 PM
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Which one are you speaking of ?


Do you know what his grudge was about? he told Tina he didn't have a grudge against the airlines, he said he just had a grudge...
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on August 30, 2015, 05:36:33 PM
I would be lying if i said i really knew, but i can only speculate it was because of the airline turning him down twice as poliot.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on August 30, 2015, 05:41:53 PM
There was a small mom & pop's burger/ice cream shop overlooking SeaTac, have not been there in many years and do not know if it still stands. He visited that stand many times getting to know the airport better.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on August 30, 2015, 05:46:20 PM
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I would be lying if i said i really knew, but i can only speculate it was because of the airline turning him down twice as poliot.


According to his quote he didn't have a grudge against Northwest. what would be the reasons for not accepting him as a pilot?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on August 30, 2015, 05:57:15 PM
He battled with unknown seizures. Most likely epilepsy.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on August 30, 2015, 06:27:47 PM
He also had debilitating migraines. He would often ware dark sunglasses late into the evening hoping to prevent the migraines from developing. He went so far as to use experimental contact lenses.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on August 30, 2015, 07:58:51 PM
Sounds like the aviation industry did Mr. Miller a favor by not letting him fly commercially.  Why did a guy with severe migraines and unknown seizures want to fly for the airlines?  That sounds interesting.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on August 30, 2015, 08:01:43 PM
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There was a small mom & pop's burger/ice cream shop overlooking SeaTac, have not been there in many years and do not know if it still stands. He visited that stand many times getting to know the airport better.

What would he need to know about SeaTac since he didn't leave the airliner?  An airport diagram of SeaTac could readily be obtained elsewhere.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on August 30, 2015, 08:13:15 PM
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There was a small mom & pop's burger/ice cream shop overlooking SeaTac, have not been there in many years and do not know if it still stands. He visited that stand many times getting to know the airport better.

What would he need to know about SeaTac since he didn't leave the airliner?  An airport diagram of SeaTac could readily be obtained elsewhere.


I think the main question would be, where was he prior to Portland PDX?

I wonder how many 727's were at PDX during this period?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: nmiwrecks on August 30, 2015, 08:55:20 PM
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Mr.Cooper's birth name is Miller. Most of them being in the medical field (MD's).
Could you give us your take on how the money ended up on Tena Bar and where his landing zone was?  Is here any actual physical evidence to what you're saying, such as a souvenir from the skyjacking, like maybe one of the twenties?  Can you give us details of your suspect, such and height, weight, hair and eye color?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on August 30, 2015, 08:55:40 PM
I agree 100% he had no business flying or even driving an automobile. My belief is after he was dismissed or discharged from Larson training base for those percise reasons, he slumped into a mindset of worthlessness. Then being turned down twice by a major airline really lit the fuse so to speak.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on August 30, 2015, 09:20:52 PM
Merwin dam area was his LZ. No, in all honesty i can not tell you why any of the money was found at the bar. At the time of the highjacking he would of been 5'11", Brown hair, Hazel eyes with his right eye having a very tiny black dot at bottom of pupil. His corrective contact lenses could of been custom tinted. I have no souvenirs other than an old suitcase that came into play after the highjacking.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: nmiwrecks on August 30, 2015, 09:31:22 PM
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Merwin dam area was his LZ. No, in all honesty i can not tell you why any of the money was found at the bar. At the time of the highjacking he would of been 5'11", Brown hair, Hazel eyes with his right eye having a very tiny black dot at bottom of pupil. His corrective contact lenses could of been custom tinted. I have no souvenirs other than an old suitcase that came into play after the highjacking.
How did the old suitcase come into play?  What happened to the ransom money?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on August 30, 2015, 09:59:45 PM
The money along with some other items were kept in this suitcase until it was retrieved. The "other items" were disposed of.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on August 30, 2015, 10:06:43 PM
Does anyone here have an altered opinion on Tina ? Do any of you think he had help on the plane ?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on August 30, 2015, 10:11:27 PM
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Does anyone here have an altered opinion on Tina ? Do any of you think he had help on the plane ?

A member here thinks it's possible she was involved after the fact, if I'm correct? I don't believe he had any help, or it would be an inside job....
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on August 30, 2015, 10:20:07 PM
You are correct, they did not know each other for a long period, but she did in fact play a significant role in the highjacking itself and years after. We were all amazed how fast the FBI excluded Tina in the highjacking.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: nmiwrecks on August 30, 2015, 10:41:47 PM
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Does anyone here have an altered opinion on Tina ? Do any of you think he had help on the plane ?
My opinion is Tina Mucklow was a young lady caught in a difficult situation, and she preformed admirably.  Later in her life, she joined a convent, because she loves the Lord and wanted to serve him. My understanding is she now counsels and helps people.

I have an issue with people projecting their own dysfunction on Ms. Mucklow.  There are people who try to analyze her every move and paint her as a guilt ridden recluse.  All her actions seem reasonable to me, and if I was being stalked my a bunch of weirdos, weirdos like the wife of the guy whose last name is the same as the name of high end gas grills, I'd keep a pretty low profile too.  Just my two cents.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on August 30, 2015, 11:13:14 PM
I agree with that analysis. I also know the feeling of being  watched and always looking over my shoulder every time i went somewhere, but that feeling has long passed. Tina serving our Lord is very honorable and more of us should do the same. Let's be very clear about one thing though, joining a convent was not by choice in the beginning, but more of a "safehouse" for her. Only after being there for a period did Tina realize this was her calling and a way to repent. The "High end gas grill" has me a bit baffled ?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on August 31, 2015, 12:16:52 AM
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Does anyone here have an altered opinion on Tina ? Do any of you think he had help on the plane ?

Altered opinion of Tina in what way? That she deliberately helped Cooper out of sympathy of some kind?

It's easy to project on Tina when one doesn't know the facts of the interactions that occurred, in real time.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on August 31, 2015, 12:18:29 AM
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Does anyone here have an altered opinion on Tina ? Do any of you think he had help on the plane ?
My opinion is Tina Mucklow was a young lady caught in a difficult situation, and she preformed admirably.  Later in her life, she joined a convent, because she loves the Lord and wanted to serve him. My understanding is she now counsels and helps people.

I have an issue with people projecting their own dysfunction on Ms. Mucklow.  There are people who try to analyze her every move and paint her as a guilt ridden recluse.  All her actions seem reasonable to me, and if I was being stalked my a bunch of weirdos, weirdos like the wife of the guy whose last name is the same as the name of high end gas grills, I'd keep a pretty low profile too.  Just my two cents.

Agree totally.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on August 31, 2015, 12:38:31 AM
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The money along with some other items were kept in this suitcase until it was retrieved. The "other items" were disposed of.

Let's not beat around the bush: you appear to have to inside info. Care to divulge the nature of that?

You appear confident the LZ was Merwin Lake ?

 8) 
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on August 31, 2015, 01:51:35 AM
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Tina serving our Lord is very honorable and more of us should do the same. Let's be very clear about one thing though, joining a convent was not by choice in the beginning, but more of a "safehouse" for her. Only after being there for a period did Tina realize this was her calling and a way to repent.

Tina's superiors at the convent said that Tina "never really fit in" there.  Also, Tina was quite religious before the hijacking.  In fact, she is shown carrying a Bible in some of the pictures taken in the hours immediately after the hijacking.  The other flight attendants said that Tina always carried a Bible with her on trips.

Tina didn't do anything related to the hijacking that would require "repentance".
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on August 31, 2015, 08:33:26 AM
Of course Tina did not fit in at first. As i said Tina was looking for safe refuge and she, aswel as other's knew this would be a failsafe plan. Obviously Tina is not an evil person as some do make her out to be and bad decisions were made long before the actual highjacking. Innocent she is not, but young and persuaded she was.

Confident of his LZ ?..Absolutely positively.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: nmiwrecks on August 31, 2015, 10:17:44 AM
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Confident of his LZ ?..Absolutely positively.
Is there any way you can back up the things you are saying?  Do you have any evidence?  Please understand our skepticism.  There have been more than a dozen people before you that have fingered a family member or acquaintance as the Cooper suspect, who survived the jump and didn't keep some kind of memento.  All of these people are absolutely positive that their person is the Cooper suspect, some even after the FBI dismissed them as suspects.

What are your intentions?  Are you interested in proving your relative as the Cooper suspect?  Are you writing a book?  Are you looking for a way to approach the FBI with your information?  This case attracts whack jobs so please understand why we are trying to vet you.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on August 31, 2015, 10:53:09 AM
I totally understand everyone's skepticism and in reality i have nor had realistic hopes of anyone believing me. That would be foolhardy of me to anticipate that. I am not writing a book, simply beyond my skill set and not enough time left. The suitcase is my only keepsake. A pair of gloves that was in the case was destroyed and their condition was grim at that time anyway. I understand the "false profits" in the Cooper world are looking or was looking for that 15 minutes of fame and obviously got it because we are talking about them. I have nothing to gain nor has that thought ever entered my mind. As i said when i first joined this forum, i have not and will not contact the FBI or another agency concerning the highjacking because no matter what the FBI said about the case being closed, we would be crazy to ever believe that ! This means if real people, place's or item's were to surface they would have to do their jobs and start investigating again. For that reason, to protect family members from unnecessary harassment we will only go so far.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: nmiwrecks on August 31, 2015, 11:28:58 AM
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I totally understand everyone's skepticism and in reality i have nor had realistic hopes of anyone believing me. That would be foolhardy of me to anticipate that. I am not writing a book, simply beyond my skill set and not enough time left. The suitcase is my only keepsake. A pair of gloves that was in the case was destroyed and their condition was grim at that time anyway. I understand the "false profits" in the Cooper world are looking or was looking for that 15 minutes of fame and obviously got it because we are talking about them. I have nothing to gain nor has that thought ever entered my mind. As i said when i first joined this forum, i have not and will not contact the FBI or another agency concerning the highjacking because no matter what the FBI said about the case being closed, we would be crazy to ever believe that ! This means if real people, place's or item's were to surface they would have to do their jobs and start investigating again. For that reason, to protect family members from unnecessary harassment we will only go so far.
Unless you can produce one of the missing twenties, or the parachute, the FBI won't waste a second looking at your man.  The FBI considers the case "open", but won't spend a nickel or a minute more investigating it.

Could you please post a photo of your suspect circa 1971?  It would be interesting to compare it with the FBI composite sketches of the Cooper suspect.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: nmiwrecks on August 31, 2015, 11:37:17 AM
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Could the picture of Lepsy be reversed or could he be wearing a British or Canadian shirt?
I've done a little digging and believe "buttons on the right" on a men's shirt is a world wide standard.  I can't find any other countries that deviate from that norm. 
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on August 31, 2015, 12:24:21 PM
I will see about getting a photo of him posted. He is not "my suspect", but a family member. I would also like to add that we would all be nieve to think the FBI along with participants of the highjacking (those left) are not monitoring this and other forums. Including an individual we spoke of in above conversations.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on August 31, 2015, 02:53:40 PM
I have been trying unsuccessfully to load a photo. Keeps saying "Image to large". So i tried to download as my avatar and would not process ? Any tip's ?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on August 31, 2015, 02:55:05 PM
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I totally understand everyone's skepticism and in reality i have nor had realistic hopes of anyone believing me. That would be foolhardy of me to anticipate that. I am not writing a book, simply beyond my skill set and not enough time left. The suitcase is my only keepsake. A pair of gloves that was in the case was destroyed and their condition was grim at that time anyway. I understand the "false profits" in the Cooper world are looking or was looking for that 15 minutes of fame and obviously got it because we are talking about them. I have nothing to gain nor has that thought ever entered my mind. As i said when i first joined this forum, i have not and will not contact the FBI or another agency concerning the highjacking because no matter what the FBI said about the case being closed, we would be crazy to ever believe that ! This means if real people, place's or item's were to surface they would have to do their jobs and start investigating again. For that reason, to protect family members from unnecessary harassment we will only go so far.

Get evidence including familial dna to the FBI, you should.

May the force be with you!

Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: 377 on August 31, 2015, 03:58:18 PM
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I have been trying unsuccessfully to load a photo. Keeps saying "Image to large". So i tried to download as my avatar and would not process ? Any tip's ?

try this: http://www.picresize.com/

377
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on August 31, 2015, 04:47:13 PM
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Unless you can produce one of the missing twenties, or the parachute, the FBI won't waste a second looking at your man.  The FBI considers the case "open", but won't spend a nickel or a minute more investigating it.


Whoa. Bold statement, Ross. First, how do you know that the FBI won't spend a nickel, and secondly, can you explain the sizeable expenditures in time and resources that went into the LD Cooper charade?  Agents arriving at Santa Claus' home in Eugene within minutes of his phone call announcing he had hair brushes and such from LD?

Or the fingerprint analysis and DNA testing that they reported performed on LD's stuff?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on August 31, 2015, 04:56:23 PM
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I totally understand everyone's skepticism... As i said when i first joined this forum, i have not and will not contact the FBI or another agency concerning the highjacking because no matter what the FBI said about the case being closed, we would be crazy to ever believe that ! This means if real people, place's or item's were to surface they would have to do their jobs and start investigating again. For that reason, to protect family members from unnecessary harassment we will only go so far.

Okay, Nightie-knight, don't contact the FBI or any other agency. But how about us?  Want to talk to me off the record? If you give me a good story I will go to jail for you on a contempt of court charge if it means protecting your identity. As for the guy you think/know is DB Cooper, why not give us/me enough to corroborate what you are claiming?

Journalists are given a period of time to investigate evidentiary material on their own to verify that it was part of a crime. Sounds like you don't have a $20 - only the briefcase - so I would expect this time frame to be extensive.

AS for harassment by the feds, annoying knocks at the door, G-men following you in the dark, Men in Black asking your ex-girl friends about you, etc... that can be addressed. Tell the family to get an attorney and direct the FBI to make an appointment with the attorney to discuss any and all of their investigatory concerns. They can't barge in without a warrant. If you feel an unwanted presence like MIB cruising the neighborhood, then call me and I'll come down, take pix, confront them, and then write up the intrusive behavior. It's all good copy!

Any advice for these scared-ie cats, 377?

By The Way, Nightie-Knight, what did you do with bullies when you were a kid? It's the same thing.

If you'd like to contact me directly, email is best: brucesmith AT rainierconnect DOT com. Also, my phone number is listed in the CONTACT section of the Mountain News-WA. I'm in the book, too. Eatonville, WA.

Additionally, have you read my book? If not, it's only ten bucks at Amazon. It'll give you a good idea of the kinds of questions I've asked others who claim to know/be DB Cooper, such as Marla, Don, Ron and Pat, Jo W, Ted E, Ted B, Wolfie, Kenny, the kid from Squim, Sail, et al.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on August 31, 2015, 05:14:24 PM
Nightie-Knight ? Well, all was peaceful. Your offer sounds somewhat plausible so i will consider it. Hell, anyone willing to go to jail for a whole 24hrs on a contempt charge can not be all bad ;) I would not know about bullies, for some reason they stayed clear of me. ;D
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on August 31, 2015, 05:23:27 PM
Contempt of court charges for withholding the identity of a source from a federal court can result in indefinite imprisonment - not 24 hours as is customary in local and state courts. The feds have no shield law protecting journalists. Technically, I could sit in jail for years for protecting your identity. I'm willing to do that for a good story.

Just think of all the free food I'd get! And access to a gym!

I also understand that I would continue to receive my royalty payments, since they are based upon the story I write that you tell me, and not the story of the imprisonment itself - a writer can not make money off the crime they commit. But I would be telling the story of what others did in the commission of their crime, i.e. stealing a plane and threatening to kill 42 people. 

And I'd have plenty of time to write, too!
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on August 31, 2015, 06:13:30 PM
Oh yes i forgot, the days of REAL jail time has went out the window too ! Access to a nice weight room and 3 politically correct meals a day, royalty money in your account.... Why would you want to be on the outside with that waiting for you ? Probably find yourself one hell of a "House Wife" in there too  :P
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: nmiwrecks on August 31, 2015, 09:36:50 PM
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Unless you can produce one of the missing twenties, or the parachute, the FBI won't waste a second looking at your man.  The FBI considers the case "open", but won't spend a nickel or a minute more investigating it.


Whoa. Bold statement, Ross. First, how do you know that the FBI won't spend a nickel, and secondly, can you explain the sizeable expenditures in time and resources that went into the LD Cooper charade?  Agents arriving at Santa Claus' home in Eugene within minutes of his phone call announcing he had hair brushes and such from LD?

Or the fingerprint analysis and DNA testing that they reported performed on LD's stuff?
That was four years ago, Bruce.  Have you heard of any examples of the Bureau actively pursuing leads or running DNA test or fingerprint analysis since then?  If so, please enlighten us.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Parrotheadvol on August 31, 2015, 10:02:10 PM
I'm not buying it. Sounds way too much like Knoss.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on August 31, 2015, 10:09:11 PM
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Oh yes i forgot, the days of REAL jail time has went out the window too ! Access to a nice weight room and 3 politically correct meals a day, royalty money in your account.... Why would you want to be on the outside with that waiting for you ? Probably find yourself one hell of a "House Wife" in there too  :P

What do you think of the FBI, or the guys who are now handling the escape from Alcatraz?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on September 01, 2015, 06:38:24 AM
 :oThis is what i know about the FBI, and i am speaking more so of the directors and "higher ups" than the grounpounders. They get so focused on one thing they literary shake hands with evidence. I will say what most people are thinking, but to afraid to say because they have been blinded as the FBI was. The highjacking was a success because of the people on that flight ! People, sometimes proof and evidence does not show itself in the form of physical object, but as freakn common sence ! The individuals that participated in the highjacking have NEVER went into hiding. I will tell you the exact moment "they" knew they we safe...when a big bottle of expensive perfume was gifted. Take it or leave it, that is the truth ! Do you people realize she had evidence in her hands the whole time ? Do you think "Cooper" has not been to some of goofy related events that have been held ? People please  :o :o
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on September 01, 2015, 03:55:35 PM
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Oh yes i forgot, the days of REAL jail time has went out the window too ! Access to a nice weight room and 3 politically correct meals a day, royalty money in your account.... Why would you want to be on the outside with that waiting for you ? Probably find yourself one hell of a "House Wife" in there too  :P

Well, for one thing Nightie-Knight, I wouldn't have access to a computer, or at least the Internet, so I wouldn't be able to read the DBCOOPERFORUM!

Thus, I would miss your wonderful communications, unless you came to see me in prison. Or put money in my commissary or postal account so I could call you. But then, the phone calls would be monitored and recorded.

For the record: Nightjumper71 has yet to email or call me, re: off the record corroboration.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on September 01, 2015, 04:05:12 PM
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:oThis is what i know about the FBI, and i am speaking more so of the directors and "higher ups" than the grounpounders. They get so focused on one thing they literary shake hands with evidence. I will say what most people are thinking, but to afraid to say because they have been blinded as the FBI was. The highjacking was a success because of the people on that flight ! People, sometimes proof and evidence does not show itself in the form of physical object, but as freakn common sence ! The individuals that participated in the highjacking have NEVER went into hiding. I will tell you the exact moment "they" knew they we safe...when a big bottle of expensive perfume was gifted. Take it or leave it, that is the truth ! Do you people realize she had evidence in her hands the whole time ? Do you think "Cooper" has not been to some of goofy related events that have been held ? People please  :o :o

So, are you talking about the bottle of Chanel No. 5 that Rataczak gave to Tina? That was the "All Clear" signal?  How so?

When Ratacak told me about the perfume gift to Tina, he also told me that he "loved Tina, but not in a sexual way." Hence, he joins me and Bill Mitchell in the "I Have A Crush on Tina Mucklow" club.  So, was Billy in on this too, or am I missing something? Do you think I am unwittingly giving a white-wash to all these conspirators?

So, if Tina and Bill Rataczak were in on the skyjacking, how are you protecting them and their families? I have interviewed them multiple times, briefly as it might have been.  Eleven door slams, and still counting. As a result, I feel like I'm already a member of their families!!!

BTW: Rataczak called Himms when I was sitting in Himms' living room, talking Cooper. Do you think that was a coincidence?  Or was it some kind of high-tech surveillance operation?

Lastly, LMNO is coming to Cooper Country in a few weeks to film. Wanna join the show? Or are you going to just let us spin our own little spins in private, continuing the delusions that we have spawned in the absence of substantive, corroborated information from you?

Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on September 01, 2015, 04:10:04 PM
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Oh yes i forgot, the days of REAL jail time has went out the window too ! Access to a nice weight room and 3 politically correct meals a day, royalty money in your account.... Why would you want to be on the outside with that waiting for you ? Probably find yourself one hell of a "House Wife" in there too  :P

As for finding true love in prison, here in my Plan A.

First, I would get a sex-change operation and let my inner Goddess free. Then, as a transgender woman, I would petition for a transfer to Litchfield - the fed's female prison in New York (or Connecticut - I forget). Besides Tina, I have a big crush on Suzanne Somebody, aka Crazy-Eyes, who is doing time there on felonious assault. But she is a writer and believes in the permeability of time and space. My kind of gal.

But Nightie- Knight, the big question is - would you come to visit me? If not, why not?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on September 01, 2015, 04:37:04 PM
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That was four years ago, Bruce.  Have you heard of any examples of the Bureau actively pursuing leads or running DNA test or fingerprint analysis since then?  If so, please enlighten us.

Would a spread sheet from Accounting suffice? Are you only interested in expenses for fingerprint analysis and DNA testing? I'll see what I can do.

But - how about other expenses?

Do you think anyone is looking for the cigarette butts? That would cost time and money, no? How about Al Di, aka Idla. Is he decoding on company time, or is he freelancing privately?

Also, if the feds whacked Cossey, then that cost a pretty penny.

I also suspect that the feds were heavily involved in the Washington State Historical Museum's exhibit on Cooper in 2013. The historical presentation was heavy on the FBI's who, what and where during the early days. But there were many things missing from the Exhibit and I suspect the Bureau went through the show with a fine-toothed comb to weed out any troubling facts and questions. There was no discussion of Earl Cossey and his claims of parachute ownership or his harsh criticisms of Cooper's skydiving ability. Nor was there any explanation of how the copycats got to the ground safely, some without any prior skydiving experience or with minimal clothing despite wintry conditions.

The presentation of the flight path was just the same old - same old from the Vault. No discussion of the many dissenting views from FBI agents and principals, such as Himms and Rataczak.

Spinning a story for the public takes a lot of time and money. How much do you think the Bureau spends on keeping the Cooper story contained?

But you may be correct. Maybe the feds are going cheap on DB Cooper. After all, Carr and Eng both let the Citizens Sleuth's into the evidence room unsupervised, apparently. According to CS statements, they tore the tie apart. Who let them do that? Or were the FBI babysitters just letting the kids run crazy while they went for lattes?

And Jimmy and Jake?  Who pays their salary?  They came and interviewed Sailshaw when he showed up at their front door. That's the beauty of Sail. The dodgey old guy just keeps on chugging along, pestering them with emails - and walks in the main entrance and demands to talk to Cooper agents. I haven't even done that.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 01, 2015, 04:50:46 PM
Nightjumper, what is your take on the dummy chute?
You didn't answer my question about Alcatraz?
Would you be willing to talk to a producer about your story, or have you already, and denied going public?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on September 01, 2015, 05:17:17 PM
I will answer these questions in parts to hopefully be clear. Mr.Smith (AKA) secret agent -000, you sure know a lot about being locked up ? Would that mean you would be called "Kaitlin Smith" after the sex change  :-*
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on September 01, 2015, 05:25:33 PM
I'm sorry Shutter, i can not truthfully comment on Alcatraz because i do not know anything about The Rock. Was there a specific question ?...Dummy chute, im guessing you are referring to the reserve chute that he never used and was actually ment for temporary shelter if needed. It was not.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on September 01, 2015, 05:48:12 PM
If i may, i have a few questions for anyone spying this forum or actual members. These are legitimate questions that only close or personal friends would know and i have a hunch there IS someone watching that knows. Then i promise to get back and answer the other questions that Kaitlin asked earlier, because they are very spot on questions with validity.

What was Tina's nickname ?
What did Tina's personal Bible look like (be detailed please).
What was Tina's favorite perfume?
Very important one: What was Tina's first car (after the highjacking)make/model and year.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 01, 2015, 06:01:30 PM
We don't play games here Nightjumper. either present some sort of evidence/proof of what you think you know. I'm sure there are plenty of other forums that engage in riddles, and games that will meet your needs.

Knoss played the same sort of games when he joined dropzone. this isn't dropzone. cold hard facts. not things that can't be checked. that's what we like to see here.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on September 01, 2015, 06:39:58 PM
I am not a game player Mr.Shutter, legitimate questions that have answers. Are you saying with all the investigative mind power here no one really knows the answers to any of the questions ? Agent -000 ? You are on the path, what do you really know ? People, please stop focusing on what happened after the highjacking. Tina, Bobby and "Cooper" knew each other a short time before the highjacking."Cooper" was not the only person to walk off that plane with money !
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 01, 2015, 07:06:44 PM
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I am not a game player Mr.Shutter, legitimate questions that have answers. Are you saying with all the investigative mind power here no one really knows the answers to any of the questions ? Agent -000 ? You are on the path, what do you really know ? People, please stop focusing on what happened after the highjacking. Tina, Bobby and "Cooper" knew each other a short time before the highjacking."Cooper" was not the only person to walk off that plane with money !


Once again, you need to provide some sort of proof. this doesn't mean what you know that can't be checked, or verified. that makes it a story. hard facts are what we like to see. we don't like to go fishing for them. you are putting things together that almost anyone could do who has better than average knowledge about the case.

Knoss tried the dummy chute bit, but didn't realize the canopy was sewn shut, and not the container. the milk can theory of how the money got to Tina bar. McCoy is still alive etc. etc. he states the truth as well? how many of you guys hold this key?

 

Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on September 01, 2015, 08:11:54 PM
I agree with you 100%. Anybody including myself could just spew out lies and hope one of them hits home. I on the other hand have nothing to gain by lying or telling the truth quit frankly. I figured that one or two of you had personal interviews with Tina and Bobby they surely would of asked any and all questions as would a FBI agent or another detective that is on the ball !

Tina's nickname was Mouse or Squeaky
Tina's personal Bible that she always had with her EXCEPT 305 was a small leather covered Bible that she always kept in a zippered leather Bible case with a gold cross on front only. Not the larger Bible she was carrying the day of the highjacking.
Tina hated perfumes and preferred not using it, but Bobby had bought her a small bottle of No 5 prior and told her how good she smelled.
Tina's first car after the highjacking was a Ford LTD Brougham 2dr, Brown. Bought in Canada with Canadian money..."Transferable Money" 1973. That can be traced !

Mr.Smith is absolutely correct, Bobby loved Tina to death, but she was always very squeamish around him. Always hanging her head while in his presence.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on September 01, 2015, 08:21:31 PM
What I am telling you unarguably, absolutely Tina walk off that plane with THAT BIBLE in her arms with cash inside. That is a fact !
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 01, 2015, 08:24:21 PM
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What I am telling you unarguably, absolutely Tina walk off that plane with THAT BIBLE in her arms with cash inside. That is a fact !


It's only a fact if proven. I can tell you she wasn't wearing underwear?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on September 01, 2015, 08:31:19 PM
 She was not, pantyhose. Big difference.  ;)
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 01, 2015, 08:31:58 PM
Was there even any confirmation that was a bible, if so, where is the link?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on September 01, 2015, 08:40:15 PM
With the thousands of round's i fired down range while in combat did i actually see everyone of my targets go down ? No, but that does not mean i did not connect. "The truth is only denied by those who are scared of the truth".
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 01, 2015, 08:51:13 PM
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With the thousands of round's i fired down range while in combat did i actually see everyone of my targets go down ? No, but that does not mean i did not connect. "The truth is only denied by those who are scared of the truth".


Quotes are a dime a dozen. facts from people such as yourself are impossible to get. once again, Knoss does the exact samething by trying to divert, or misdirect. it seems every time there is an old crime, or mystery, a conspiracy will be lurking around the corner waiting to fill in the gaps. the problem is the gaps never get filled in. they just go round, and round the wheel never stopping.

Facts

The sun will come up tomorrow
Tomorrow will be September 2, 2015

Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on September 01, 2015, 08:51:49 PM
I have no clue about any links. I do not need to look up anything concerning the highjacking. I am sure there are photos of Tina right after the highjacking with Bible in hand.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 01, 2015, 08:55:37 PM
Quote
I have no clue about any links. I do not need to look up anything concerning the highjacking. I am sure there are photos of Tina right after the highjacking with Bible in hand.

I'm extremely happy for you. as for me? I'm done with this conversation. when you have some proof just post it, and we can continue..


Shutter
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on September 01, 2015, 09:03:54 PM
Fact is naysayers are a dime a dozen and fact is you do not want the truth, because this event that you have turned into hobby will end. You have a freaky infatuation with this knoss character ? Fact: the sun will come up tomorrow, but you will still be in the dark. Not everyone is lying just because its not digestible to you. I have answered every question you have asked. You do not want the truth Mr.Shutter, that is so very clear.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 01, 2015, 09:52:21 PM
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Fact is naysayers are a dime a dozen and fact is you do not want the truth, because this event that you have turned into hobby will end. You have a freaky infatuation with this knoss character ? Fact: the sun will come up tomorrow, but you will still be in the dark. Not everyone is lying just because its not digestible to you. I have answered every question you have asked. You do not want the truth Mr.Shutter, that is so very clear.


I'm going to tell you this one more time...DO NOT try and blame me for not providing anything of substance. talk is cheap. don't try and turn the tables on me. do you follow!!

I keep bringing up Knoss because you sound just like him...do you understand? others have mentioned the same, so it's not just me. this is what's called fact! do I need to start posting some of his truth?

It's very simple. a story is when something can't be backed up. you are rapidly falling into this guideline.
Facts are proven with evidence. that doesn't include hearsay, or what you believe are facts.

Documents, photo's, recordings, statements. these are things that will provide facts.

The burden of proof is on YOU. not me.

Final Warning!
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: nmiwrecks on September 01, 2015, 10:10:59 PM
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Fact is naysayers are a dime a dozen and fact is you do not want the truth, because this event that you have turned into hobby will end. You have a freaky infatuation with this knoss character ? Fact: the sun will come up tomorrow, but you will still be in the dark. Not everyone is lying just because its not digestible to you. I have answered every question you have asked. You do not want the truth Mr.Shutter, that is so very clear.
I'd still like to see a photo of your suspect.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 01, 2015, 10:21:45 PM
Robert Knoss states:

I have a similar position on what I KNOW to be the truth and have my own adgenda, to simply expose what really happened. I will do that, because it is right.

But he fails to provide any evidence....

Knoss:

Simple truth. Obvious. If I weren't right, you'd just ignor me

He would make post after post making it impossible to "ignore him"

Knoss:

We get close to exposing something, as soon as you see it fitting together, you throw all the cards on the floor and yell, "Game Over!!" That's not the way to play fair, or to search for truth.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on September 01, 2015, 10:58:54 PM
I will keep trying to load the photo. Maybe to a private email ?...Mr.Shutter, demand all you want it bothers me none. No i do not follow you ? No i do not understand. I am twisting nothing but your mind it seems. Here is another dime for your dozen, "Defensive are those who fear reality". Read nmiwrecks quote or signature at bottom of every post. That is you Mr.Shutter like or not. Good luck in your hobby. 8)
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 01, 2015, 11:20:49 PM
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I will keep trying to load the photo. Maybe to a private email ?...Mr.Shutter, demand all you want it bothers me none. No i do not follow you ? No i do not understand. I am twisting nothing but your mind it seems. Here is another dime for your dozen, "Defensive are those who fear reality". Read nmiwrecks quote or signature at bottom of every post. That is you Mr.Shutter like or not. Good luck in your hobby. 8)


Proof is not being defensive. I like facts, not stories. you want to wonder around on forums speaking truth, but fail to provide anything other than words. if you are having trouble with the photo. it probably too big. shrink it down, and it will post just fine.

 stop shifting the blame on me. you have to prove your story, not me, not NMIwrecks, or anyone else. it's that simple. I've given you plenty room in the past, and have continued, but you always fumble around blaming me, or acting as if I don't want the truth? provide it! it's very simple. telling it doesn't cut it.

Yes, it is a hobby. you claim (as other do) to speak truth, but you guys never go past a public forum? the popular excuse will always pop up when a producer, or law enforcement come into play, why is that? why only tell a chosen few when you could tell millions the truth?

Please Advise  8)

 


Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: iekline4 on September 01, 2015, 11:43:31 PM
Hi Nightjumper. I'm sorry if I missed a conversation on this, but I did notice your quote also, at the end of your posts. Why is time now your worst enemy?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on September 01, 2015, 11:49:10 PM
Once again i have answered every question you have asked and with truth, i can not help the answer is not to your satisfaction. Can you prove to me what you ate for breakfast, lunch and supper on 24 November 1971 ? If you have no proof, no pictures of the meals, it surely must mean you did not eat at all that day and if you say you did your a lier because you have no visible proof. Does that sound even remotely sane to you ?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 01, 2015, 11:53:26 PM
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Once again i have answered every question you have asked and with truth, i can not help the answer is not to your satisfaction. Can you prove to me what you ate for breakfast, lunch and supper on 24 November 1971 ? If you have no proof, no pictures of the meals, it surely must mean you did not eat at all that day and if you say you did your a lier because you have no visible proof. Does that sound even remotely sane to you ?


As I've said in the past. it's just a story. you are more than welcome to tell the story all you wish.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on September 02, 2015, 12:02:34 AM
iekline4, it means the more time that past the safer i felt, but now that time is not on my side anymore, i feel i should of maybe done things a little differently. Hope that answers your question and good eye  :D
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on September 02, 2015, 12:05:22 AM
It is that, one hell of a story.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: nmiwrecks on September 02, 2015, 12:13:31 AM
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It is that, one hell of a story.
Christians claim to know the truth.  Muslims claim to know the truth.  Hindus claim to know the truth.  You have billions of people claiming their different truths are the "real" truth.  If you want to tell us about your beliefs and feelings, I think we are all fine with that.  If you want to tell us the "truth", then simply make God appear, and he will take care the rest!  I don't think that's a lot to ask.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on September 02, 2015, 07:22:31 AM
You people really do not want the truth. You are having to much fun trying to dig a hole in water. You know the digging will get you no where and you are fine with that. I think boredom fuel your need to go nowhere. You are so blinded by your tunnel vision God could appear and you would not see him. I gave you a last name that has never been offered and a traceable automobile sale. I have pointed out specific items that were a part of the highjacking and still you dig in water Lol, WOW !.. :o :o
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: nmiwrecks on September 02, 2015, 09:02:15 AM
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You people really do not want the truth. You are having to much fun trying to dig a hole in water. You know the digging will get you no where and you are fine with that. I think boredom fuel your need to go nowhere. You are so blinded by your tunnel vision God could appear and you would not see him. I gave you a last name that has never been offered and a traceable automobile sale. I have pointed out specific items that were a part of the highjacking and still you dig in water Lol, WOW !.. :o :o
Just to put things in context, "Nightjumper", about twenty people have come forward with a solution to the case (I'm one of them) and claim they are 100% certain (I am not one of those) without providing any type of evidence that could close the case.  Only one of us could be right, and maybe none of us are.  I think that is why there is a fair amount of skepticism here. 

I am posting a couple of images of "Nightjumper's" suspect.  The first one is the original and the second is touched up a little.  Thoughts?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on September 02, 2015, 09:10:15 AM
Thank you for posting those.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 02, 2015, 09:18:03 AM
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You people really do not want the truth. You are having to much fun trying to dig a hole in water. You know the digging will get you no where and you are fine with that. I think boredom fuel your need to go nowhere. You are so blinded by your tunnel vision God could appear and you would not see him. I gave you a last name that has never been offered and a traceable automobile sale. I have pointed out specific items that were a part of the highjacking and still you dig in water Lol, WOW !.. :o :o


Lets try this again, shall we? Bob Knoss did the exact same thing by giving "traceable clues" guess what happened when we tried looking up these "traceable clues" nothing! he also had very similar remarks such as you do? he constantly told he story adding the truth bomb in may of his comments. you really need to contact Knoss. I believe some sort of mix up occurred at the hospital when you guys were born. I will provide a picture of Knoss, and you can decide whether it's possible you could be family. Lmao (added for heart pounding drama)

How's that photo coming along to Ross? he's trying to get some truth?
While we battle for the truth. perhaps you would like to discuss this truth to Curtis Eng., or a Hollywood producer? or do you only feel it's not ratting family members out on a public forum vs the actual public?

I see you posted a photo...are those eye's blue?

 
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 02, 2015, 09:39:32 AM
Right off the bat we see a very bad photo. do I see blue eye's. it's a very bad example of trying to prove something. not a good start in my opinion.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: nmiwrecks on September 02, 2015, 09:48:15 AM
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Right off the bat we see a very bad photo. do I see blue eye's. it's a very bad example of trying to prove something. not a good start in my opinion.
To me, the man in the photo (Miller) appears to have similar facial features and dimensions as sketch B.  Not as much of a resemblance to sketch A though.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 02, 2015, 10:28:01 AM
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Right off the bat we see a very bad photo. do I see blue eye's. it's a very bad example of trying to prove something. not a good start in my opinion.
To me, the man in the photo (Miller) appears to have similar facial features and dimensions as sketch B.  Not as much of a resemblance to sketch A though.


I think the description needs to be the first thing to look over, and then view the sketch. I don't see much of a sideburn going on, the ears are sticking out noticeably, and I believe the eye color is wrong. it's hard to tell with a faded photo.

Several suspects fit the sketch amazingly well. Gossett has a very good match, but he has been a suspect for years. physical evidence always lacks in the case. yes, it's decades old, but some suspects have been around almost as long. one of the first suspects lost his life over the weekend. Teddy looked like a character for sure, or the guy who could light up the party when it started to fade out.

Bob Knoss swears to know the truth. he believes Richard McCoy was in charge of the Cooper jump.
Jo Weber swears her husband was Dan Cooper.
Robert Blevins believes (final admits) Kenny Christiansen was Dan Cooper
Marla Cooper believes Lynn Doyle Cooper was Dan Cooper.
Sailshaw believes Sheridan Peterson is Dan Cooper.
Nightjumper71 believes he knows who Dan Cooper is..

This is a lot of truth coming from many different people. some scream out we want to block, or deny the truth. how can they all be right while we are the ones wrong?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on September 02, 2015, 11:11:11 AM
As i  said Mr.Shutter no amount of proof will make you happy. You are having to much fun trying to find your back side with both hands and can not seem to quit get it Lol. Your investigation efforts seem to be focused on this rather odd, disturbing and freakishly unhealthy obsession with this Knows joker ? Very obvious you have a love-hate relationship with this fellow. :-\ :-*
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on September 02, 2015, 11:13:44 AM
Sorry, tears of laughter, could not seen keys Lol. Ment Knoss not knows.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 02, 2015, 11:22:54 AM
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As i  said Mr.Shutter no amount of proof will make you happy. You are having to much fun trying to find your back side with both hands and can not seem to quit get it Lol. Your investigation efforts seem to be focused on this rather odd, disturbing and freakishly unhealthy obsession with this Knows joker ? Very obvious you have a love-hate relationship with this fellow. :-\ :-*

I go by facts. not stories, and when I see a resemblance to something, I show it. you like to turn the tables on people. you come into my house, and plant your feet on my coffee table showing zero respect! it doesn't matter who the joker is. it matters that you follow the same path. I am quickly growing tired of your attitude. either present your story, or I can show you the path out of here? you will not tie up this forum.

This will be the last time I will respond to these claims. you are more than welcome to present your case (with proof) all you wish. you may also continue to tell the story without substance. the next time you disrespect my position, I'll just put you in the corner where you will only be allowed to observe...Understood?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Nightjumper71 on September 02, 2015, 11:45:29 AM
Do as you wish almighty OZ. Lol. You once again banning me from this forum will bother me none. Just proved as last time when you get a little bit uncomfortable with comments that hit home you deal with it the only way you know how...flex your cyber muscles if it make's you feel better about yourself. ;D
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: nmiwrecks on September 02, 2015, 11:59:08 AM
Hi all,
I am proposing a video conference call via Skype tonight 8pm-9pm Eastern, 5pm-6pm Pacific.  I think this is a really good idea. We can discuss the latest happenings in the case, this forum and suspects.  My skype id is "michiganmysteries".  Let me know if you're interested and I'll figure out how to pull it off by tonight.

Thanks!
Ross R.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 02, 2015, 12:03:00 PM
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Do as you wish almighty OZ. Lol. You once again banning me from this forum will bother me none. Just proved as last time when you get a little bit uncomfortable with comments that hit home you deal with it the only way you know how...flex your cyber muscles if it make's you feel better about yourself. ;D


You obviously have an issue with authority. sometimes things have to be done for things to function properly. I'm not uncomfortable with what your opinion is of me as much as the disrespect you have shown. it has zip to do with "flexing a cyber muscle" I've made my position clear as to what is needed. it wasn't disrespectful, or out of line. since it doesn't bother you I will grant your wish turning it into a fact.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 02, 2015, 12:11:04 PM
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Hi all,
I am proposing a video conference call via Skype tonight 8pm-9pm Eastern, 5pm-6pm Pacific.  I think this is a really good idea. We can discuss the latest happenings in the case, this forum and suspects.  My skype id is "michiganmysteries".  Let me know if you're interested and I'll figure out how to pull it off by tonight.

Thanks!
Ross R.



That's a good idea. the only problem I have is I don't have a thing to wear   ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Parrotheadvol on September 02, 2015, 12:26:16 PM
Well, if Shutters coming to the party naked....count me out!!

Sorry Shutter.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 02, 2015, 12:52:11 PM
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Well, if Shutters coming to the party naked....count me out!!

Sorry Shutter.

Ha, Ha...I was trying a poor attempt of what women always say...."I don't have a thing to wear"
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: iekline4 on September 02, 2015, 07:18:34 PM
Bye. And my question wasn't meant to be antagonistic just so you know. I know things are tense here...just wanted to know...
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 02, 2015, 07:39:13 PM
Quote
Bye. And my question wasn't meant to be antagonistic just so you know. I know things are tense here...just wanted to know...

This wasn't the first problem with nightjumper, he pretty much started out the last time arguing with posters when he first joined. then I would get emails from someone off this thread telling, and showing me a similar story he was telling her that didn't match very well to what he was presenting here.

It's sad that people have to act out like this over a decades old unsolved crime?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: iekline4 on September 02, 2015, 09:22:12 PM
Thank you for the add. Sorry I haven't addressed everyone or said hello. I'm usually here reading after long shifts at work, and with spotty connections. I really enjoy the forum. Your discussions are very informative on a fascinating case and very interesting. So thanks again and Hi to everyone
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 02, 2015, 09:32:15 PM
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Thank you for the add. Sorry I haven't addressed everyone or said hello. I'm usually here reading after long shifts at work, and with spotty connections. I really enjoy the forum. Your discussions are very informative on a fascinating case and very interesting. So thanks again and Hi to everyone


Thanks, and hello. I believe we have spoken in the past, but that's ok. the case seems to have a lot of twisty turns in it. we should have some good stuff coming up in the near future. who knows what lies ahead, but it's always interesting to say the least.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 02, 2015, 11:25:22 PM
Quote
Hi all,
I am proposing a video conference call via Skype tonight 8pm-9pm Eastern, 5pm-6pm Pacific.  I think this is a really good idea. We can discuss the latest happenings in the case, this forum and suspects.  My skype id is "michiganmysteries".  Let me know if you're interested and I'll figure out how to pull it off by tonight.

Ross, did we get some bites on the Skype idea? I was for it, but I think perhaps we need a little more time in advance to get the news out? maybe we could shoot for this weekend if that could be arranged?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: nmiwrecks on September 02, 2015, 11:41:22 PM
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Quote
Hi all,
I am proposing a video conference call via Skype tonight 8pm-9pm Eastern, 5pm-6pm Pacific.  I think this is a really good idea. We can discuss the latest happenings in the case, this forum and suspects.  My skype id is "michiganmysteries".  Let me know if you're interested and I'll figure out how to pull it off by tonight.

Ross, did we get some bites on the Skype idea? I was for it, but I think perhaps we need a little more time in advance to get the news out? maybe we could shoot for this weekend if that could be arranged?
It's a good idea.  I think Bruce came up with it first.  Wednesdays are best for me, as I work in the library and have some free time.  I can make any night work.  I'm going to be out of town this weekend, so this weekend would be a little sketchy.  What's a good night for those who want be involved?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: MarkBennett on September 02, 2015, 11:56:50 PM
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You people really do not want the truth. You are having to much fun trying to dig a hole in water. You know the digging will get you no where and you are fine with that. I think boredom fuel your need to go nowhere. You are so blinded by your tunnel vision God could appear and you would not see him. I gave you a last name that has never been offered and a traceable automobile sale. I have pointed out specific items that were a part of the highjacking and still you dig in water Lol, WOW !.. :o :o
Just to put things in context, "Nightjumper", about twenty people have come forward with a solution to the case (I'm one of them) and claim they are 100% certain (I am not one of those) without providing any type of evidence that could close the case.  Only one of us could be right, and maybe none of us are.  I think that is why there is a fair amount of skepticism here. 

I am posting a couple of images of "Nightjumper's" suspect.  The first one is the original and the second is touched up a little.  Thoughts?

Just for fun, I took this photo and searched it on Google Images.  It found a "match", but it was a recent photo -- not someone from the 1970s.  Some European college prof....

Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 03, 2015, 06:56:00 AM
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You people really do not want the truth. You are having to much fun trying to dig a hole in water. You know the digging will get you no where and you are fine with that. I think boredom fuel your need to go nowhere. You are so blinded by your tunnel vision God could appear and you would not see him. I gave you a last name that has never been offered and a traceable automobile sale. I have pointed out specific items that were a part of the highjacking and still you dig in water Lol, WOW !.. :o :o
Just to put things in context, "Nightjumper", about twenty people have come forward with a solution to the case (I'm one of them) and claim they are 100% certain (I am not one of those) without providing any type of evidence that could close the case.  Only one of us could be right, and maybe none of us are.  I think that is why there is a fair amount of skepticism here. 

I am posting a couple of images of "Nightjumper's" suspect.  The first one is the original and the second is touched up a little.  Thoughts?

Just for fun, I took this photo and searched it on Google Images.  It found a "match", but it was a recent photo -- not someone from the 1970s.  Some European college prof....


Can you provide the link to the photo?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 03, 2015, 07:36:11 AM
So much for the so called truth from nightjumper71!

The briefcase he states was used after the crime can be found on Etsy for $49.00

They scream for justice, tell us we don't want the truth etc. etc.

Nightie states
Quote
"The truth is only denied by those who are scared of the truth"
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: nmiwrecks on September 03, 2015, 08:52:36 AM
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So much for the so called truth from nightjumper71!

The briefcase he states was used after the crime can be found on Etsy for $49.00

They scream for justice, tell us we don't want the truth etc. etc.

Nightie states
Quote
"The truth is only denied by those who are scared of the truth"

Whoa!  Say it isn't so!  Why would "nightjumper" put such an important piece of evidence from the case on ETSY?  I don't get it.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: MarkBennett on September 03, 2015, 10:09:03 AM
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You people really do not want the truth. You are having to much fun trying to dig a hole in water. You know the digging will get you no where and you are fine with that. I think boredom fuel your need to go nowhere. You are so blinded by your tunnel vision God could appear and you would not see him. I gave you a last name that has never been offered and a traceable automobile sale. I have pointed out specific items that were a part of the highjacking and still you dig in water Lol, WOW !.. :o :o
Just to put things in context, "Nightjumper", about twenty people have come forward with a solution to the case (I'm one of them) and claim they are 100% certain (I am not one of those) without providing any type of evidence that could close the case.  Only one of us could be right, and maybe none of us are.  I think that is why there is a fair amount of skepticism here. 

I am posting a couple of images of "Nightjumper's" suspect.  The first one is the original and the second is touched up a little.  Thoughts?

Just for fun, I took this photo and searched it on Google Images.  It found a "match", but it was a recent photo -- not someone from the 1970s.  Some European college prof....


Can you provide the link to the photo?

Oops.  I thought I did.  I will tonight.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on September 03, 2015, 10:53:58 AM
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So much for the so called truth from nightjumper71!

The briefcase he states was used after the crime can be found on Etsy for $49.00

They scream for justice, tell us we don't want the truth etc. etc.

Nightie states
Quote
"The truth is only denied by those who are scared of the truth"

Whoa!  Say it isn't so!  Why would "nightjumper" put such an important piece of evidence from the case on ETSY?  I don't get it.

Out of date Props must be sold. It's in the contract! Be sure and have your sequined Cooper boots back to the prop room by Noon tomorrow for Margaret to check off - or you will be charged!  :) :)
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 03, 2015, 11:51:05 AM
Most people dont check things like this. He just looked for a good pic and ran with it obviously......on my phone...hate trying to type..
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on September 03, 2015, 04:05:33 PM
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Most people dont check things like this. He just looked for a good pic and ran with it obviously......on my phone...hate trying to type..

Can we charge him by the minute?  In cases like this, the real name of the perp needs to be exposed!
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 03, 2015, 04:46:21 PM
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Most people dont check things like this. He just looked for a good pic and ran with it obviously......on my phone...hate trying to type..

Can we charge him by the minute?  In cases like this, the real name of the perp needs to be exposed!


Jo sent me several emails when he first joined. then she showed me the story about the guy on the side of the store. on this forum he wasn't injured, but the email she had was different. the man had an injury to his leg, and was bigger than what he explained here.

Over time these people forget what they have said in the past, and that's usually when I get them. I nailed Knoss several times with older comments. Bobby has turned out to be a little story teller as well. my hands will need an hour break to go thru his lies/stories/fabrications... :o those sci-fi writers sure can pop up with some whoppers  :D I know why Recihenbach left too, so he better stay clear of that issue  8)

Nightjumper had a different IP during the times he was here. Iowa, New York, Wisconsin. his last one was pinging Illinois.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on September 03, 2015, 10:10:52 PM
 Group Hug on Skype would be cool.
Wednesdays are good with me, but a day or two notice is best with me.

My Skype address is Brucesmith4949

So Nightie-Knight has left?  Sigh. He/She was a trip. It felt like the old days at the DZ for awhile.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 03, 2015, 10:17:43 PM
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Group Hug on Skype would be cool.
Wednesdays are good with me, but a day or two notice is best with me.

My Skype address is Brucesmith4949

So Nightie-Knight has left?  Sigh. He/She was a trip. It felt like the old days at the DZ for awhile.


I can live without those days.... :P
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on September 03, 2015, 11:20:54 PM
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Group Hug on Skype would be cool.
Wednesdays are good with me, but a day or two notice is best with me.

My Skype address is Brucesmith4949

So Nightie-Knight has left?  Sigh. He/She was a trip. It felt like the old days at the DZ for awhile.


I can live without those days.... :P
+4  ;D
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 03, 2015, 11:24:56 PM
 8)
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on September 03, 2015, 11:25:32 PM
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8)

Thanks - feeling better.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: MarkBennett on September 04, 2015, 01:23:12 AM
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You people really do not want the truth. You are having to much fun trying to dig a hole in water. You know the digging will get you no where and you are fine with that. I think boredom fuel your need to go nowhere. You are so blinded by your tunnel vision God could appear and you would not see him. I gave you a last name that has never been offered and a traceable automobile sale. I have pointed out specific items that were a part of the highjacking and still you dig in water Lol, WOW !.. :o :o
Just to put things in context, "Nightjumper", about twenty people have come forward with a solution to the case (I'm one of them) and claim they are 100% certain (I am not one of those) without providing any type of evidence that could close the case.  Only one of us could be right, and maybe none of us are.  I think that is why there is a fair amount of skepticism here. 

I am posting a couple of images of "Nightjumper's" suspect.  The first one is the original and the second is touched up a little.  Thoughts?

Just for fun, I took this photo and searched it on Google Images.  It found a "match", but it was a recent photo -- not someone from the 1970s.  Some European college prof....


Can you provide the link to the photo?

This was from the search of the Miller photo that NightJumper71 posted.

http://uu.academia.edu/CoenDeGoeij/Activity

It's a young guy.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on September 04, 2015, 01:26:42 AM
Nightie-night, Nightjumper71.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on September 13, 2015, 03:28:36 AM
305 left Seattle at 7::33 approx after landing at 5:45pm. We know that shortly after landing Tina retrieved the money, passengers were allowed to leave, the chutes came on, and according to the stews Cooper put on a back pack shortly after that and began stripping out a small chute of its cordage trying to fabricate a carrier for the money. All of this long before 7:33pm. Presumably Cooper has a back pack on through the long refueling and during his period of preparation ???

Did Cooper sit with the back pack on during this period?  Did he stand?   Can one sit on one of these 727 seats_with a large backpack parachute on?  Can someone enlighten me? Or did Cooper stand the whole time after putting on the large back pack? I can find no testimony which clarifies this. Conceivably Cooper had a back pack on while on the plane for approximately 2.0 hours?

Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 13, 2015, 08:44:26 AM
7:33?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on September 13, 2015, 01:35:47 PM
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305 left Seattle at 7::33 approx after landing at 5:45pm. We know that shortly after landing Tina retrieved the money, passengers were allowed to leave, the chutes came on, and according to the stews Cooper put on a back pack shortly after that and began stripping out a small chute of its cordage trying to fabricate a carrier for the money. All of this long before 7:33pm. Presumably Cooper has a back pack on through the long refueling and during his period of preparation ???

Did Cooper sit with the back pack on during this period?  Did he stand?   Can one sit on one of these 727 seats_with a large backpack parachute on?  Can someone enlighten me? Or did Cooper stand the whole time after putting on the large back pack? I can find no testimony which clarifies this. Conceivably Cooper had a back pack on while on the plane for approximately 2.0 hours?

One of the recently released files includes a statement from someone (?) that the airliner took off from Seattle at 7:36 PM PST.

The Navy NB-6 parachute is relatively thin compared to standard 28 foot canopy parachutes.  Nevertheless, it would be difficult for Cooper to sit in an airliner seat with that parachute on.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on September 13, 2015, 01:40:27 PM
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7:33?

Yep: Sluggo says: 19:33 PST   Flt 305 takes off   None   Estimated based on next transmission.

Mucklow: Approximately four minutes after take off at 7:36 he stood up and told her to go the cockpit and close the first class curtain, ...

'Rataczak added that after take off at 7:36 pm '

Andy:  Anderson stated that the departure from Seattle was made at 7:36pm and at
about 8:05 pm he called the hijacker ...
 

The departure doesn't fit with anything on the transcripts with a 7:33 takeoff time...7:36 has been widely used for the actual takeoff time...

Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on September 13, 2015, 01:51:54 PM
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305 left Seattle at 7::33 approx after landing at 5:45pm. We know that shortly after landing Tina retrieved the money, passengers were allowed to leave, the chutes came on, and according to the stews Cooper put on a back pack shortly after that and began stripping out a small chute of its cordage trying to fabricate a carrier for the money. All of this long before 7:33pm. Presumably Cooper has a back pack on through the long refueling and during his period of preparation ???

Did Cooper sit with the back pack on during this period?  Did he stand?   Can one sit on one of these 727 seats_with a large backpack parachute on?  Can someone enlighten me? Or did Cooper stand the whole time after putting on the large back pack? I can find no testimony which clarifies this. Conceivably Cooper had a back pack on while on the plane for approximately 2.0 hours?

One of the recently released files includes a statement from someone (?) that the airliner took off from Seattle at 7:36 PM PST.

The Navy NB-6 parachute is relatively thin compared to standard 28 foot canopy parachutes.  Nevertheless, it would be difficult for Cooper to sit in an airliner seat with that parachute on.

Well it sounds a little uncomfortable and taxing - would affect one's mobility - by the end of it some people would be glad to jump out of the back of an airplane!  :)  We are talking about this guy walking/sitting around in a parachute for up to 2 hours. He must have been in pretty good shape? But I suppose paratroopers and fire fighters stand and sit around with chutes on for prolonged periods of time?   By comparison, how long did McCoy have his chute on before he bailed?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: 377 on September 14, 2015, 01:07:12 PM
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305 left Seattle at 7::33 approx after landing at 5:45pm. We know that shortly after landing Tina retrieved the money, passengers were allowed to leave, the chutes came on, and according to the stews Cooper put on a back pack shortly after that and began stripping out a small chute of its cordage trying to fabricate a carrier for the money. All of this long before 7:33pm. Presumably Cooper has a back pack on through the long refueling and during his period of preparation ???

Did Cooper sit with the back pack on during this period?  Did he stand?   Can one sit on one of these 727 seats_with a large backpack parachute on?  Can someone enlighten me? Or did Cooper stand the whole time after putting on the large back pack? I can find no testimony which clarifies this. Conceivably Cooper had a back pack on while on the plane for approximately 2.0 hours?
\

When I jumped from the ex SAS DC 9-21 in 2006 all jumpers were seated in normal passenger seats with their gear on. It wasn't too uncomfortable.

377
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on September 19, 2015, 05:00:15 PM
Am a bit shocked and dismayed that the NEW files have provoked so little response. I guess people knew it all, had it all - already? Or it doesn't matter - doesn't fit the standard agenda of drama and drum signals through the Cooper forest?

Would brand new data on the brand new Hominid Species found in So Afrika help? That D4DR population who survived by grit and determination on the primeval savannah having just come down from the trees in search of a Cooper Project to think about?

Did Cooper arrive on the Titanic? I'll bet the Foremans and JT know!   
 :D

If no Cooper shoes were found does that mean he died with his boots on!?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 19, 2015, 05:13:44 PM
Quote
Am a bit shocked and dismayed that the NEW files have provoked so little response. I guess people knew it all, had it all - already? Or it doesn't matter - doesn't fit the standard agenda of drama and drum signals through the Cooper forest?

I agree, I was set back once they were released and hardly anyone said anything for a while. I kinda thought it would send shock waves, but not much happened... :-\

I did receive several emails about them from members, but the overall response was unexpectedly low..I'll keep pushing on though  8)
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on September 19, 2015, 05:20:57 PM
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Quote
Am a bit shocked and dismayed that the NEW files have provoked so little response. I guess people knew it all, had it all - already? Or it doesn't matter - doesn't fit the standard agenda of drama and drum signals through the Cooper forest?

I agree, I was set back once they were released and hardly anyone said anything for a while. I kinda thought it would send shock waves, but not much happened... :-\

I did receive several emails about them from members, but the overall response was unexpectedly low..I'll keep pushing on though  8)

I guess people prefer to keep milking the Foreman corpse! It has given about all it can give ?    ;)
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on September 19, 2015, 11:03:54 PM
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Am a bit shocked and dismayed that the NEW files have provoked so little response. I guess people knew it all, had it all - already? Or it doesn't matter - doesn't fit the standard agenda of drama and drum signals through the Cooper forest?

Would brand new data on the brand new Hominid Species found in So Afrika help? That D4DR population who survived by grit and determination on the primeval savannah having just come down from the trees in search of a Cooper Project to think about?

Did Cooper arrive on the Titanic? I'll bet the Foremans and JT know!   
 :D

If no Cooper shoes were found does that mean he died with his boots on!?

It will take time to absorb and process everything. I printed everything out and started taking notes and making highlights.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on September 20, 2015, 05:51:39 PM
I agree with Andrade; it will take time to process all the information.

One element that keeps it from being really DRAMATIC is that there is no new information that strongly contradicts anyone or the existing narrative of who said what, when, and what they did in response.

If these crew debriefs came out before GG's book, it would have produced more of a wave. Nevertheless, these are important pieces of information and will find their rightful place in the Cooper lexicon. I am considering posting them or some distilled version in my print edition as a reference aide.

I pushed Ayn Dietrich-Williams for more confirmation on them, but she back-peddled and said that the case agent would have to search through thousands of case files to satisfactorily answer my question. Gee, really? I would have thought that the Norjak case agent would have the crew debriefs at his fingertips.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on September 21, 2015, 02:07:19 AM
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I agree with Andrade; it will take time to process all the information.

If these crew debriefs came out before GG's book, it would have produced more of a wave. Nevertheless, these are important pieces of information and will find their rightful place in the Cooper lexicon. I am considering posting them or some distilled version in my print edition as a reference aide.

Obviously the debriefs existed prior to GG or his book. GG told you they looked vaguely familiar?  ;) ;) Maybe GG's book was supposed to supplant the debriefs? Wouldn't that be clever.  :) 
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Ron and Pat on September 22, 2015, 11:59:20 AM
Thank you so much for posting the crew notes.  Ron and I have been looking through them ever since.  At one point:
"She (Tina in #5) told him it would be a few minutes longer while they filed a flight plan and he said, "Never mind, they can do that over the radio once we get up. Let's get the show on the road." 
That statement is just one of many that seems to point to D B being a pilot.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on September 22, 2015, 01:19:31 PM
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Thank you so much for posting the crew notes.  Ron and I have been looking through them ever since.  At one point:
"She (Tina in #5) told him it would be a few minutes longer while they filed a flight plan and he said, "Never mind, they can do that over the radio once we get up. Let's get the show on the road." 
That statement is just one of many that seems to point to D B being a pilot.

All kinds of people live in and around aviation and know something about how aviation works, without being a pilot. The same applies in every area of life. Remember, FOX News is fair and balanced and knows more than anyone else knows - about everything! Isn't that how some in Cooperland operate?

The most you can say about Cooper is that he gave a lot of orders/requests some of which were technical, and some were true and appropriate, and some of his requests were not true and appropriate. Maybe Cooper had a Boy's Scout Airplane Merit Badge ? Only the Cooper money worms knows.



Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Ron and Pat on September 22, 2015, 01:56:46 PM
Another quote from the new documents:

"Anderson stated that approximately 5 to 10 minutes after the last contact with subject at 8:05 pm, they heard and felt an oscillation of the aircraft and commented that the hijacker could have departed causing the unusual vibration since there had been no change in flight parameters or any other external force which would account for this sudden vibration. They telephoned the company representative ( __________ in ___________) shortly thereafter and stated that the ‘oscillation’ which could have been the hijacker’s departure, would have occurred between 8:05 pm and their call to the company 5 or ten minutes later, the exact time being recorded in the company log. Anderson stated that they had not reached Portland proper but were definitely in the suburbs or immediate vicinity thereof."

This would also coincide with what Barb told us about the jump that night. She stated she went a bit down on the stairs to look for the lights of Portland to start her timing to the jump site, then waited at the top out of the wind to do her timing and wait for the search light from Aurora airport to hit the plane at a 45 degree angle.  Note that with flying in those wind conditions and with that configuration of the airplane, the ride would be quite bumpy.  The pilots would have been more in tune to a slight oscillation in the time directly after the door opened and could easily have missed a second slight oscillation. Or perhaps the second oscillation occurred when there was more buffeting of the plane. 

As we read through these documents we are more convinced than ever that Barb was D B.  The phrases mentioned, the offering of the money, the point where Tina says he shows a sense of humor, all sound exactly like the Barb we knew.   
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: nmiwrecks on September 22, 2015, 03:17:25 PM
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Another quote from the new documents:

"Anderson stated that approximately 5 to 10 minutes after the last contact with subject at 8:05 pm, they heard and felt an oscillation of the aircraft and commented that the hijacker could have departed causing the unusual vibration since there had been no change in flight parameters or any other external force which would account for this sudden vibration. They telephoned the company representative ( __________ in ___________) shortly thereafter and stated that the ‘oscillation’ which could have been the hijacker’s departure, would have occurred between 8:05 pm and their call to the company 5 or ten minutes later, the exact time being recorded in the company log. Anderson stated that they had not reached Portland proper but were definitely in the suburbs or immediate vicinity thereof."

This would also coincide with what Barb told us about the jump that night. She stated she went a bit down on the stairs to look for the lights of Portland to start her timing to the jump site, then waited at the top out of the wind to do her timing and wait for the search light from Aurora airport to hit the plane at a 45 degree angle.  Note that with flying in those wind conditions and with that configuration of the airplane, the ride would be quite bumpy.  The pilots would have been more in tune to a slight oscillation in the time directly after the door opened and could easily have missed a second slight oscillation. Or perhaps the second oscillation occurred when there was more buffeting of the plane. 

As we read through these documents we are more convinced than ever that Barb was D B.  The phrases mentioned, the offering of the money, the point where Tina says he shows a sense of humor, all sound exactly like the Barb we knew.
Another interesting item is the tie and tie clasp.  A logical explanation of the clasp being found on the left side is that shirt it was attached to was a women's shirt, with the buttons on the opposite side.

I'm compiling a list of suspects and their attributes for Shutter's website.  Do you know Barb's height, weight, hair and eye color and age at the time of the skyjacking event? 
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Ron and Pat on September 22, 2015, 06:28:15 PM
Barb was 5'8".  Her eyes were a bit odd in color, almost a steel gray, but they were listed as blue. Her hair was brown and she would have been 44 at the time of the jump. Her description was what made me initially not believe her story, but the research we did after her death convinced me that I was wrong.

We asked Barb about the discrepancy in height. She told us that she appeared taller because she has a longer torso and appears taller when she is seated.  I remember looking at her at the time she said that.  She was sitting next to Ron. He is 5'9" and Barb appeared to be about 2 inches taller when they were sitting next to each other. 

She told us that she used black shoe polish to darken her hair. We experimented with this on a wig obtained from the Goodwill and the affect was similar to the description given by one of the witnesses that the hair was "black like patent leather shoes". 

Tina stated that the only time she saw Cooper standing was when he went to the lavatory and it's unclear whether she was standing or sitting at the time.  She also stated that she never saw his eyes due to the dark glasses.

There has been a lot of research done on eye witness accounts since the emergence of DNA testing.  Reliable sources say that only one in five eye witness accounts are accurate and it has been proven that the existence of a weapon makes people overestimate weight and height.

With all this, I am surprised that the FBI would use the fact that someone did not match the eye witness accounts as the only reason for eliminating someone.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Ron and Pat on September 22, 2015, 06:54:50 PM
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Barb was 5'8".  Her eyes were a bit odd in color, almost a steel gray, but they were listed as blue. Her hair was brown and she would have been 44 at the time of the jump. Her description was what made me initially not believe her story, but the research we did after her death convinced me that I was wrong.

We asked Barb about the discrepancy in height. She told us that she appeared taller because she has a longer torso and appears taller when she is seated.  I remember looking at her at the time she said that.  She was sitting next to Ron. He is 5'9" and Barb appeared to be about 2 inches taller when they were sitting next to each other. 

She told us that she used black shoe polish to darken her hair. We experimented with this on a wig obtained from the Goodwill and the affect was similar to the description given by one of the witnesses that the hair was "black like patent leather shoes". 

Tina stated that the only time she saw Cooper standing was when he went to the lavatory and it's unclear whether she was standing or sitting at the time.  She also stated that she never saw his eyes due to the dark glasses.

There has been a lot of research done on eye witness accounts since the emergence of DNA testing.  Reliable sources say that only one in five eye witness accounts are accurate and it has been proven that the existence of a weapon makes people overestimate weight and height.

With all this, I am surprised that the FBI would use the fact that someone did not match the eye witness accounts as the only reason for eliminating someone.

Should also mention that the 5'8" was the height from when Barb joined the Merchant Marines at the age of 17.  When standing next to Ron she appeared to be the same height so we have always called her 5'9". 
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 22, 2015, 08:31:14 PM
Lets not gloss over this green paper bag thingy, what could that be?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on September 23, 2015, 12:43:12 AM
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Lets not gloss over this green paper bag thingy, what could that be?

So where did "small brown paper bag" come from, and go to? Now it turns out to be green? How did it get to be brown, if it was green ? Somebody was color blind?

What stores in the Portland area sold things in green paper bags? Hardware store?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 23, 2015, 06:25:10 AM
Carr only states a "small paper bag"...did everyone automatically assume brown?

Was it something purchased that was in green bag?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: nmiwrecks on September 23, 2015, 07:55:27 AM
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Lets not gloss over this green paper bag thingy, what could that be?

So where did "small brown paper bag" come from, and go to? Now it turns out to be green? How did it get to be brown, if it was green ? Somebody was color blind?

What stores in the Portland area sold things in green paper bags? Hardware store?

My sources tell me it was an air sickness bag.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on September 23, 2015, 02:21:32 PM
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Lets not gloss over this green paper bag thingy, what could that be?

So where did "small brown paper bag" come from, and go to? Now it turns out to be green? How did it get to be brown, if it was green ? Somebody was color blind?

What stores in the Portland area sold things in green paper bags? Hardware store?

My sources tell me it was an air sickness bag.

Really.? ???

In any event no mention of the brown paper bag in these new files which has always been part of the Cooper story ...


Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 23, 2015, 03:52:50 PM
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Lets not gloss over this green paper bag thingy, what could that be?

So where did "small brown paper bag" come from, and go to? Now it turns out to be green? How did it get to be brown, if it was green ? Somebody was color blind?

What stores in the Portland area sold things in green paper bags? Hardware store?

My sources tell me it was an air sickness bag.


I would think the stews would of pointed that out?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: nmiwrecks on September 23, 2015, 06:19:05 PM
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Lets not gloss over this green paper bag thingy, what could that be?

So where did "small brown paper bag" come from, and go to? Now it turns out to be green? How did it get to be brown, if it was green ? Somebody was color blind?

What stores in the Portland area sold things in green paper bags? Hardware store?

My sources tell me it was an air sickness bag.


I would think the stews would of pointed that out?

It was from a competing airline.  They may not have recognized it.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 23, 2015, 06:24:30 PM
I looked up vintage air sickness bags.....only one green one....
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: nmiwrecks on September 23, 2015, 06:31:04 PM
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I looked up vintage air sickness bags.....only one green one....
Oh my...didn't Kenny take regular flights to Zimbabwe?   ;)
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 23, 2015, 08:59:15 PM
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I looked up vintage air sickness bags.....only one green one....
Oh my...didn't Kenny take regular flights to Zimbabwe?   ;)


I believe so, he went there once a month for his toupee tuneup ;D ;D ;D

When I seen him there he was having trouble with getting on the carnival rides. (height requirement)
Word has it Dawn Androsko slipped the carnie a few 20's to get him on the rides  :D :D
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on September 23, 2015, 11:35:28 PM
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I looked up vintage air sickness bags.....only one green one....

Good find!  ::)

a nice pleasant place - right plane at right time in right place !  :) :) :) :)
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on September 23, 2015, 11:37:35 PM
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I looked up vintage air sickness bags.....only one green one....
Oh my...didn't Kenny take regular flights to Zimbabwe?   ;)


I believe so, he went there once a month for his toupee tuneup ;D ;D ;D

When I seen him there he was having trouble with getting on the carnival rides. (height requirement)
Word has it Dawn Androsko slipped the carnie a few 20's to get him on the rides  :D :D

My guess is Kenny would turn over in his grave if he knew what is going on today, in his name!

And/Or sue the living shit out of  ______[redacted]_____.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on September 24, 2015, 03:25:24 PM
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I looked up vintage air sickness bags.....only one green one....

"Small brown paper bag" has been a basic constituent of the DB Cooper story - forever! If the bag was "green" instead of "brown", where did the myth get started? Was there no brown paper bag? Was the bag always green? It's contradictions like this that sometimes make we wonder if anything in the DB Cooper story is the truth?

Is there any mention of this contradiction in GG's book? Along with wavy-marcelled hair and russet coat you would think GG would have mentioned "green paper bag" also? Apparently Gray decided to pass that by, for editorial reasons? Maybe it was just to disruptive of myth building to touch!? Since the main goal seems to be mythology vs truth? Maybe "green paper bag" doesn't fit the social media Cooper ideology? Maybe ideology is what this is all about!? Or something even more crucially evil that that???

Maybe Cooper is just non-refundable, like the mattress you buy, it gets delivered, it doesn't fit the bed!, they take it back saying "no problemo", and the store manager announces 15 minutes later - "It's non refundable we only give store credit!". Screwed again.

Green paper bag. Screwed again! Nonrefundable! Only store credit at the Cooper store! Buy the next revised-revised version ... previous purchases nonrefundable! We only give credit for your next purchase. YOU MUST PURCHASE! BE AMERICAN!

 ???



Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on September 24, 2015, 03:54:32 PM
Quote
"Small brown paper bag" has been a basic constituent of the DB Cooper story - forever!

I think it boils down to who originally gave the information...Carr states "a small paper bag" this could be enough to set off the "brown paper bag" myth. that's what everyone will automatically think of ?

Sluggo posted an article about the paper sack. the article goes back to 1976...I can't download the aerticle. Chrome says it's a dangerous file...I haven't been able to get around it yet...

the post can be found here on the DZ..

http://www.dropzone.com/forum/Skydiving_C1/Skydiving_History_%26_Trivia_F21/DB_Cooper_P3110098-687
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on September 24, 2015, 11:16:30 PM
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Quote
"Small brown paper bag" has been a basic constituent of the DB Cooper story - forever!

I think it boils down to who originally gave the information...Carr states "a small paper bag" this could be enough to set off the "brown paper bag" myth. that's what everyone will automatically think of ?

Sluggo posted an article about the paper sack. the article goes back to 1976...I can't download the aerticle. Chrome says it's a dangerous file...I haven't been able to get around it yet...

the post can be found here on the DZ..

http://www.dropzone.com/forum/Skydiving_C1/Skydiving_History_%26_Trivia_F21/DB_Cooper_P3110098-687

Nice tracking work. The story has been around for years. Jo made quite an issue of the 'brown paper bag' - claimed Duane threw a 'brown paper bag' from their glove compartment into the Columbia, after which of course the Tina Bar money find occurred. 

Brown paper bag is a serviceable allegory! Funny.  :) :)
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: nmiwrecks on September 25, 2015, 09:39:28 AM
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Quote
"Small brown paper bag" has been a basic constituent of the DB Cooper story - forever!

I think it boils down to who originally gave the information...Carr states "a small paper bag" this could be enough to set off the "brown paper bag" myth. that's what everyone will automatically think of ?

Sluggo posted an article about the paper sack. the article goes back to 1976...I can't download the aerticle. Chrome says it's a dangerous file...I haven't been able to get around it yet...

the post can be found here on the DZ..

http://www.dropzone.com/forum/Skydiving_C1/Skydiving_History_%26_Trivia_F21/DB_Cooper_P3110098-687
It appears to me that "brown" may have been inadvertently added to "small paper bag" somewhere along the line.  It looks like the "green bag" made its first appearance after the Cooper suspect exited the lavatory?  Maybe he kept it in his raincoat pocket or briefcase?  It could be something as innocuous as a couple packs of cigarettes, or a sandwich, or some candy.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on September 25, 2015, 01:18:00 PM
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Quote
"Small brown paper bag" has been a basic constituent of the DB Cooper story - forever!

I think it boils down to who originally gave the information...Carr states "a small paper bag" this could be enough to set off the "brown paper bag" myth. that's what everyone will automatically think of ?

Sluggo posted an article about the paper sack. the article goes back to 1976...I can't download the aerticle. Chrome says it's a dangerous file...I haven't been able to get around it yet...

the post can be found here on the DZ..

http://www.dropzone.com/forum/Skydiving_C1/Skydiving_History_%26_Trivia_F21/DB_Cooper_P3110098-687
It appears to me that "brown" may have been inadvertently added to "small paper bag" somewhere along the line.  It looks like the "green bag" made its first appearance after the Cooper suspect exited the lavatory?  Maybe he kept it in his raincoat pocket or briefcase?  It could be something as innocuous as a couple packs of cigarettes, or a sandwich, or some candy.

There is probably some FBI report somewhere that details their search for the source of the 'green paper bag'. Wonder if there was any writing on (or inside) the bag?  ;)
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: 377 on October 20, 2015, 07:55:00 PM
377 cruising among the clouds last Saturday.

https://sites.google.com/site/af6imcloudcrusing/

See my radio gear packs on my chest and leg? Big enough for 200K in twenties? I am getting good at jumping with asymmetrical loads. Not so hard if you anticipate the correction needed to avoid instability.

https://sites.google.com/site/af6imworkingqsos/

Worked Japan on my DSTAR radio, but it uses internet linked repeaters. Snow and G would say that doesn't count, and they'd be kinda right.

I think about DB Cooper on nearly every jump. Who was he, is he still alive? I could see the Santa Rosa area from 14,500 ft and wondered about Sheridan.

I LOVE skydiving. Hard to find a higher thrill for only $24. Maybe $24 worth of crack would produce a bigger rush but I'm just too chicken.

Marla's LD story has CB walkie talkies involved so of course I like that aspect. I think the CB radios of 1971 could have proved useful in a Cooper ground man rendezvous. There is just no credible evidence to support my Norjack radio fantasy.

377
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: nmiwrecks on October 20, 2015, 09:33:02 PM
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377 cruising among the clouds last Saturday.

https://sites.google.com/site/af6imcloudcrusing/

See my radio gear packs on my chest and leg? Big enough for 200K in twenties? I am getting good at jumping with asymmetrical loads. Not so hard if you anticipate the correction needed to avoid instability.

https://sites.google.com/site/af6imworkingqsos/

Worked Japan on my DSTAR radio, but it uses internet linked repeaters. Snow and G would say that doesn't count, and they'd be kinda right.

I think about DB Cooper on nearly every jump. Who was he, is he still alive? I could see the Santa Rosa area from 14,500 ft and wondered about Sheridan.

I LOVE skydiving. Hard to find a higher thrill for only $24. Maybe $24 worth of crack would produce a bigger rush but I'm just too chicken.

Marla's LD story has CB walkie talkies involved so of course I like that aspect. I think the CB radios of 1971 could have proved useful in a Cooper ground man rendezvous. There is just no credible evidence to support my Norjack radio fantasy.

377

Very cool!
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: sailshaw on October 21, 2015, 09:57:26 AM
Sutter    Just want to mention that 377 told me that when a parachute is open it provides a protection from the rain like an umbrella. So DB was only exposed to the rain when at his start of his jump and once the chute opened, he was protected. It was about 5 minutes and then he was on the ground or in the trees. Therefore, DB did not suffer from exposure very long even though he was dressed in his suit and raincoat. The freezing to death was part of the Cossey story of why DB did not survive that he told the FBI. Why would he make up such a story? Was it to throw the FBI off and not to look for DB suspects? Well, the FBI were smart enough to check out their suspects in the first year following Norjak and that is when they visited my home and asking about Sheridan Peterson (because of his three years experience as a USFS Smoke Jumper. When they visited my home and asked about Sheridan, it dawned on me all the things he did and we talked about while he lived at my home for a month. I knew then that Sheridan was DB and told the FBI that he was DB and they said "yes he has one of their suspects". How smart the FBI were to be so close to finding DB on the first year following Norjak but they were unable to put 2 and 2 together however they did send two female agents to get DNA samples from Sheridan. I believe DNA will be the solution to solving the crime but thee FBI needs to get going and think outside the box.

Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Parrotheadvol on October 21, 2015, 07:27:16 PM
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Sutter    Just want to mention that 377 told me that when a parachute is open it provides a protection from the rain like an umbrella. So DB was only exposed to the rain when at his start of his jump and once the chute opened, he was protected. It was about 5 minutes and then he was on the ground or in the trees. Therefore, DB did not suffer from exposure very long even though he was dressed in his suit and raincoat. The freezing to death was part of the Cossey story of why DB did not survive that he told the FBI. Why would he make up such a story? Was it to throw the FBI off and not to look for DB suspects? Well, the FBI were smart enough to check out their suspects in the first year following Norjak and that is when they visited my home and asking about Sheridan Peterson (because of his three years experience as a USFS Smoke Jumper. When they visited my home and asked about Sheridan, it dawned on me all the things he did and we talked about while he lived at my home for a month. I knew then that Sheridan was DB and told the FBI that he was DB and they said "yes he has one of their suspects". How smart the FBI were to be so close to finding DB on the first year following Norjak but they were unable to put 2 and 2 together however they did send two female agents to get DNA samples from Sheridan. I believe DNA will be the solution to solving the crime but thee FBI needs to get going and think outside the box.

Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com

Bob, is it your contention that Cossey was involved in Norjack, or at least knew that it was Peterson that did it?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: sailshaw on October 22, 2015, 10:18:04 AM
Parrotheadvol    Yes because the way he ended our last phone call when I asked at the end of the call if he knew Sharidon. He gasped and sounded like he just swallled a frog when he said no he never heard of him and Sheridan had brought the Boeing Skydiving Club to Issaquah Sky Sports where Cossey worked as a rigger and instructor. They had to know eachother. Cossey then canciled our lunch date and wanted nothing to do with me after that. I know they must have known each other and spent hours together at Issaquah. Cossey would have been a good partner and launderer of the loot at the casinos he frequented. I think Cossey even held the $200K in his investment plan. Could it be that Sharidan visited Cossey when the money ran out and an eyeball to eyeball talk was necessary but the death was accidental and part of a rage at the end?

Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Parrotheadvol on October 22, 2015, 11:15:12 AM
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Parrotheadvol    Yes because the way he ended our last phone call when I asked at the end of the call if he knew Sharidon. He gasped and sounded like he just swallled a frog when he said no he never heard of him and Sheridan had brought the Boeing Skydiving Club to Issaquah Sky Sports where Cossey worked as a rigger and instructor. They had to know eachother. Cossey then canciled our lunch date and wanted nothing to do with me after that. I know they must have known each other and spent hours together at Issaquah. Cossey would have been a good partner and launderer of the loot at the casinos he frequented. I think Cossey even held the $200K in his investment plan. Could it be that Sharidan visited Cossey when the money ran out and an eyeball to eyeball talk was necessary but the death was accidental and part of a rage at the end?

Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com

Two questions then:

1. You seem to think that Peterson made it out with the money, so I'm assuming that you think the Tena Bar find was a plant?

2. God forgive me for asking this one, but if Cossey was involved (hypothetically speaking of course), or at least knew who Cooper was, does this bring the Amboy chute back into question?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on October 22, 2015, 02:03:01 PM
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Parrotheadvol    Yes because the way he ended our last phone call when I asked at the end of the call if he knew Sharidon. He gasped and sounded like he just swallled a frog when he said no he never heard of him and Sheridan had brought the Boeing Skydiving Club to Issaquah Sky Sports where Cossey worked as a rigger and instructor. They had to know eachother. Cossey then canciled our lunch date and wanted nothing to do with me after that. I know they must have known each other and spent hours together at Issaquah. Cossey would have been a good partner and launderer of the loot at the casinos he frequented. I think Cossey even held the $200K in his investment plan. Could it be that Sharidan visited Cossey when the money ran out and an eyeball to eyeball talk was necessary but the death was accidental and part of a rage at the end?

Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com

Two questions then:

1. You seem to think that Peterson made it out with the money, so I'm assuming that you think the Tena Bar find was a plant?

2. God forgive me for asking this one, but if Cossey was involved (hypothetically speaking of course), or at least knew who Cooper was, does this bring the Amboy chute back into question?

The Amboy chute is silk. The Cooper chutes were nylon. That fact does not depend exclusively on Cossey. So the Amboy chute has nothing to do with some speculation about Cossey's involvement or noninvolvement ... or the dna of wood ducks and panthers either!
 8)
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: 377 on October 22, 2015, 05:09:43 PM
CRAF: Civil Reserve Air Fleet. Govt paid Pan Am and NWA a subsidy to add reinforced cargo floors to their 747s so that they could be used as wartime freighters.

https://books.google.com/books?id=s5EZwCfUrXIC&pg=PA354&lpg=PA354&dq=747+cargo+floor+subsiody+pan+am&source=bl&ots=lnITfDjYBD&sig=zIfBIANsEc2qZcCdMibcgIqxX2A&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAWoVChMIn6Gtv_fWyAIVQedjCh39oQ1h#v=onepage&q=747%20cargo%20floor%20subsiody%20pan%20am&f=false

Likely a similar program was used to pay Boeing to do the airdop config flight testing on the 727. CIA? DOD? Anyone find any info on what govt agency funded this test program?

I've always assumed Cooper knew about the tests, but might he have learned about them through the program funding source rather than working at Boeing or hearing about the SAT 727 airdrop tests in Thailand?

Just thinking...

377
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: sailshaw on October 23, 2015, 10:13:47 AM
Parrotheadvol:  You say:
1. You seem to think that Peterson made it out with the money, so I'm assuming that you think the Tena Bar find was a plant?

2. God forgive me for asking this one, but if Cossey was involved (hypothetically speaking of course), or at least knew who Cooper was, does this bring the Amboy chute back into question?

I say: "the Tina Bar money was most likely the three packs of $20 offered to the Flight Crew but refused and DB  then stashed the three packs into the paper bag he brought on-board and then DB shoved the bag into his shirt. The bag blew out of DB's shirt and floated down to end up at Tina's Bar."
 
The Amboy chute was made from the wrong material to be the DB chute (note to two photo's) Georger has it correct.

I can not attach my two photo's as they are over 200KB but the DB Chute is rip-stop and the Amboy is not.

Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on October 23, 2015, 11:45:19 PM
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Parrotheadvol:  You say:
1. You seem to think that Peterson made it out with the money, so I'm assuming that you think the Tena Bar find was a plant?

2. God forgive me for asking this one, but if Cossey was involved (hypothetically speaking of course), or at least knew who Cooper was, does this bring the Amboy chute back into question?

I say: "the Tina Bar money was most likely the three packs of $20 offered to the Flight Crew but refused and DB  then stashed the three packs into the paper bag he brought on-board and then DB shoved the bag into his shirt. The bag blew out of DB's shirt and floated down to end up at Tina's Bar."
 
The Amboy chute was made from the wrong material to be the DB chute (note to two photo's) Georger has it correct.

I can not attach my two photo's as they are over 200KB but the DB Chute is rip-stop and the Amboy is not.

Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com

Sail you have a basic fact wrong. Cooper DID NOT offer anyone "THREE BUNDOLAS" - or tres mures either.

That myth seems to never die .... in the hands of MOTIVATED SALESMEN. !    :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

Read the thread and catch up please. 2016 is coming fast.

I actually took time out of my day to post this! My bill is in the mail!
 
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: sailshaw on October 24, 2015, 10:08:58 AM
Georger:  You say "Read the thread and catch up please. 2016 is coming fast."

I suggest you reread the thread as that is where I read about the three bundles being offered and refused and quit being so negative and refresh your memory. Maybe Bruce or Mark can verify where the three bundle story came from?

Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on October 24, 2015, 01:09:49 PM
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Georger:  You say "Read the thread and catch up please. 2016 is coming fast."

I suggest you reread the thread as that is where I read about the three bundles being offered and refused and quit being so negative and refresh your memory. Maybe Bruce or Mark can verify where the three bundle story came from?

Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com

Funny. Well... one place the "story/myth" is coming from .... is you!

Care to present your sources?   ::)  I mean why ask 377 or Bruce or Blevins or Gray Mushroom to 'verify' a claim "you" are making-using? Since you claim it is "common knowledge and true" just direct us over to where the claim is made and documented. That should be easy? And while we are at it: how many fingers & toes did DB Cooper have? God only knows what facts of Life are lurking there I missed also?  (Cooper had three tongues?) ???   

La tres bundolas, la tres bundolas
Ya no puede caminar.
Porque no tiene, porque le falta,
Dinero para gastar.
Una cucaracha pinta,
Le dijo a una colorada,
"Vamonos para mi tierra,
A pasar la temporada"

  :)
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on October 24, 2015, 03:01:10 PM
Quote
in an attempt at being humorous, stated to the hijacker while the passengers where unloading that there was obviously a lot of money in the bag and she wondered if she could have some. the hijacker immediately agreed with her suggestion and took ONE PACKAGE of the money and handed it to her

I believe since 3 bundles are widely noted that were found on Tina bar, and 3 stews on the plane the myth was born from these events...

Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on October 25, 2015, 02:37:43 PM
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Quote
in an attempt at being humorous, stated to the hijacker while the passengers where unloading that there was obviously a lot of money in the bag and she wondered if she could have some. the hijacker immediately agreed with her suggestion and took ONE PACKAGE of the money and handed it to her

I believe since 3 bundles are widely noted that were found on Tina bar, and 3 stews on the plane the myth was born from these events...

None of the stews testified Cooper tried to give them 3 bundolas. I will go back and look. I could be wrong but one of the stews "may have" (stress MAY HAVE!!!!!) said Cooper pulled out 'one package' of money and offered bills from it ... to the stews. Again, this is such OLD NEWS ... but the files needed to answer the question are right here in Shutter's Vault, I think.

An approximate figure of $5800 was attached by some news person/FBI spokesperson to the Ingram find. That is an APPROXIMATE figure, not an actual count because given the condx of the bills no actual count of individual bills ie. serial numbers was possible.

Until Bobby Blevins bulldozed his way into Cooperland NOBODY used "3 bundolas" as a literal fact. That was Blevins' invention/contribution into the social media. I told Blevins very early when he appeared that he lacked basic math skills - in counting - ! 

 :)   
 
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on October 31, 2015, 02:34:25 AM
I just re-watched "The Hijacker that Got Away", and it mentions Carr found profiles of Raleigh Cigarette smokers and Bourbon/7 Up drinkers. Were these ever released or did anyone publish them anywhere?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on October 31, 2015, 12:31:41 PM
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I just re-watched "The Hijacker that Got Away", and it mentions Carr found profiles of Raleigh Cigarette smokers and Bourbon/7 Up drinkers. Were these ever released or did anyone publish them anywhere?


I believe they also show Cooper filling out the ticket....also false.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 01, 2015, 02:02:26 PM
I've liked our survey on the money find at T-Bar, and we seem basically spilt between dredge and nature.

How about parachutes? Can we do a survey on what parachute we think DB Cooper used?

1. NB-8, as per the "Common Understanding"?
2. NB-6, stuffed with a 28-foot canopy as per FBI docs provided by Ckret
3. Pioneer, with 26-foot Steinthaul, as per Norman
4. Pioneer, with unknown canopy, as per interpretation of Cossey's statements
5. Paracommmander, as per Sluggo?
6. Paradise, with unknown canopy, as per Earl Cossey's initial statements to me?


Bonus Question: Does anyone think DB Cooper used the reserve chute not found aboard 305 in Reno?

I'm voting #3, with a No on the "front" chute.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on November 01, 2015, 02:20:19 PM
7) one that didn't open  :D :D :D :D


Three shows a nite....two drink minimum  :P
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on November 01, 2015, 02:29:51 PM
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7) one that didn't open  :D :D :D :D

I'll go with Shutter on number 7.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on November 01, 2015, 02:51:08 PM
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7) one that didn't open  :D :D :D :D

I'll go with Shutter on number 7.


 ;D
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 01, 2015, 04:42:22 PM
Youse guys are jumping ahead with your answers.  What chute didn't open, then.

Shut- after moderating this forum for a couple years, you think you have enough material for three shows a night? Maybe you're right!
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on November 01, 2015, 05:15:47 PM
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I've liked our survey on the money find at T-Bar, and we seem basically spilt between dredge and nature.

How about parachutes? Can we do a survey on what parachute we think DB Cooper used?

1. NB-8, as per the "Common Understanding"?
2. NB-6, stuffed with a 28-foot canopy as per FBI docs provided by Ckret
3. Pioneer, with 26-foot Steinthaul, as per Norman
4. Pioneer, with unknown canopy, as per interpretation of Cossey's statements
5. Paracommmander, as per Sluggo?
6. Paradise, with unknown canopy, as per Earl Cossey's initial statements to me?


Bonus Question: Does anyone think DB Cooper used the reserve chute not found aboard 305 in Reno?

I'm voting #3, with a No on the "front" chute.

Extra bonus:  hasn't this all been discussed before? Including discussed based on your own research? Did you forget what you said/did before? Wasn't this all discussed before based on your articles/research ? I fail to see what all of your re-iterations or previous iterations of the iterations before that ... accomplishes? Unless of course it's total confusion you are seeking/making? This has come to have all the trappings of a historical hysteria?  :D  The purpose of this is?  (revisions to your book? revisions to revisions of your book? a new book? ? )

Will this ever end?  ;) ;) ;)
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on November 01, 2015, 09:30:27 PM
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Youse guys are jumping ahead with your answers.  What chute didn't open, then.

Shut- after moderating this forum for a couple years, you think you have enough material for three shows a night? Maybe you're right!


Vegas is calling....I'll get back at ya... 8)

Quote
What chute didn't open

The one on his back.... :P
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on November 01, 2015, 09:39:19 PM
At this point in time I don't think it would matter if he had a golden chute. we don't know one way or the other if he made it.

No proof on the ground....so, he made it?

No proof of any kind to surface, as in the note, clothing, a chute, money, other than Tina Bar....so, he died?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: 377 on November 02, 2015, 02:33:56 AM
NB8 with 28 ft C9 surplus canopy.

377
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on November 02, 2015, 02:41:41 AM
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NB8 with 28 ft C9 surplus canopy.

377

That has been consistent, has it not, through all permutations, iterations, interviews, testimonials by whoever, discoveries, ... and all crop circle formations  ?  Yes?  No  ?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 02, 2015, 03:14:03 AM
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I've liked our survey on the money find at T-Bar, and we seem basically spilt between dredge and nature.

How about parachutes? Can we do a survey on what parachute we think DB Cooper used?

1. NB-8, as per the "Common Understanding"?
2. NB-6, stuffed with a 28-foot canopy as per FBI docs provided by Ckret
3. Pioneer, with 26-foot Steinthaul, as per Norman
4. Pioneer, with unknown canopy, as per interpretation of Cossey's statements
5. Paracommmander, as per Sluggo?
6. Paradise, with unknown canopy, as per Earl Cossey's initial statements to me?


Bonus Question: Does anyone think DB Cooper used the reserve chute not found aboard 305 in Reno?

I'm voting #3, with a No on the "front" chute.

Extra bonus:  hasn't this all been discussed before? Including discussed based on your own research? Did you forget what you said/did before? Wasn't this all discussed before based on your articles/research ? I fail to see what all of your re-iterations or previous iterations of the iterations before that ... accomplishes? Unless of course it's total confusion you are seeking/making? This has come to have all the trappings of a historical hysteria?  :D  The purpose of this is?  (revisions to your book? revisions to revisions of your book? a new book? ? )

Will this ever end?  ;) ;) ;)

We can end it as soon as you vote, Georger.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on November 02, 2015, 04:26:31 AM
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I've liked our survey on the money find at T-Bar, and we seem basically spilt between dredge and nature.

How about parachutes? Can we do a survey on what parachute we think DB Cooper used?

1. NB-8, as per the "Common Understanding"?
2. NB-6, stuffed with a 28-foot canopy as per FBI docs provided by Ckret
3. Pioneer, with 26-foot Steinthaul, as per Norman
4. Pioneer, with unknown canopy, as per interpretation of Cossey's statements
5. Paracommmander, as per Sluggo?
6. Paradise, with unknown canopy, as per Earl Cossey's initial statements to me?


Bonus Question: Does anyone think DB Cooper used the reserve chute not found aboard 305 in Reno?

I'm voting #3, with a No on the "front" chute.

Extra bonus:  hasn't this all been discussed before? Including discussed based on your own research? Did you forget what you said/did before? Wasn't this all discussed before based on your articles/research ? I fail to see what all of your re-iterations or previous iterations of the iterations before that ... accomplishes? Unless of course it's total confusion you are seeking/making? This has come to have all the trappings of a historical hysteria?  :D  The purpose of this is?  (revisions to your book? revisions to revisions of your book? a new book? ? )

Will this ever end?  ;) ;) ;)

We can end it as soon as you vote, Georger.

377 and I both voted above!  :)
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: 377 on November 02, 2015, 09:55:11 AM
I'm biased though since I own an NB 8 with a C9. It might be worth slightly more if it's a DBC model rig. It's the rig I brought to the Portland symposium. The one that a non jumper had a very difficult time donning. Finding the packing card quickly proved impossible.

Good rig. Great canopy. The C9 is super tough.

377
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: sailshaw on November 02, 2015, 09:59:51 AM
Bruce:  You say:   "Bonus Question: Does anyone think DB Cooper used the reserve chute not found aboard 305 in Reno?"

I think he took the "Front Chute" to climb down from the trees in case he landed in the trees. Old Smoke Jumper trick and Sheriddan must have seen that Front Chute with the big "X" on it many time at Issaquah when he took the Boeing Skydiving Club there for training. He knew
what he was doing and did not need the "X" chute for anything but climbing out of the trees.

Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: 377 on November 02, 2015, 12:37:49 PM
Neither of the main rigs had D Rings for attaching a reserve. How do you think he fastened the reserve chute if he took it?

You are right, using a reserve to lower yourself from a tree landing is taught to smoke jumpers.

In my skydiver training they advised us to just wait until help arrived if we landed in a tree, that trying to go down your deployed reserve lines could end up in a bad fall.

377
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on November 02, 2015, 03:12:59 PM
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Neither of the main rigs had D Rings for attaching a reserve. How do you think he fastened the reserve chute if he took it?

You are right, using a reserve to lower yourself from a tree landing is taught to smoke jumpers.

In my skydiver training they advised us to just wait until help arrived if we landed in a tree, that trying to go down your deployed reserve lines could end up in a bad fall.

377

That was an option if he could attach it. But of course there is no way to prove that is what he did - unless you found both chutes together in the same place, which has never happened. And if that is what happened (if the chutes had been found together) that would nail a 'north of Portland' drop point! And that would mean real problems for any natural explanation for the money find!

People have searched and searched for these chutes. The Amboy chute is the only chute to surface. And trust problems with Cossey are now on the table. The hell of this is: telling the difference btwn silk and nylon is child's play (anyone can do it!) so typing the Amboy chute as silk may have been done irrespective of any input from Cossey.

Nothing is easy in this case! 
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: 377 on November 02, 2015, 07:19:30 PM
If the riser attachment fittings are still on the Amboy chute risers they could tell us a lot about what kind of rig it may have been attached to.

I don't think it was Cooper's chute but I haven't  seen it up close, just photos and descriptions. Looks like twill material to me and therefore unlikely to have been used in a 1971 setting as an FAA legal emergency chute. Trusting your life to twill when good ripstop C-9s were available dirt cheap would have been insane. Airworthy C 9s were super cheap back then. I saw a bunch of them (looked like about 100 canopies) for $25 each, in perfect condition with lines and risers, at a University of Calif surplus sale in Richmond CA in the early 70s. I have no idea what UC was doing with them. Normal C-9 pricing back then was between $75 and $150 depending on who was selling them

Cossey was a joker about Norjack chutes, so you can't take everything he said as a fact. Bruce doesn't think you can take ANYTHING Cossey said as a fact.

377

Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on November 03, 2015, 12:04:03 AM
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If the riser attachment fittings are still on the Amboy chute risers they could tell us a lot about what kind of rig it may have been attached to.

I don't think it was Cooper's chute but I haven't  seen it up close, just photos and descriptions. Looks like twill material to me and therefore unlikely to have been used in a 1971 setting as an FAA legal emergency chute. Trusting your life to twill when good ripstop C-9s were available dirt cheap would have been insane. Airworthy C 9s were super cheap back then. I saw a bunch of them (looked like about 100 canopies) for $25 each, in perfect condition with lines and risers, at a University of Calif surplus sale in Richmond CA in the early 70s. I have no idea what UC was doing with them. Normal C-9 pricing back then was between $75 and $150 depending on who was selling them

Cossey was a joker about Norjack chutes, so you can't take everything he said as a fact. Bruce doesn't think you can take ANYTHING Cossey said as a fact.

377

Bruce seems to want to throw the baby out with the bath water ?

Cossey was not the black or white figure some are trying to paint him; that seems apparent by the record of his life and the respect a lot of people had for him, coming from many walks of life. 
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: sailshaw on November 03, 2015, 09:51:02 AM
377  You say: "NB8 with 28 ft C9 surplus canopy."

That is my vote Too! based upon Norm Haden's description of the chute he provided. Or DB could have cut four one ft chunks of parachute cord to tie the "front" chute on to the NB8 carrier that he used.

Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on November 03, 2015, 01:56:08 PM
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377  You say: "NB8 with 28 ft C9 surplus canopy."

That is my vote Too! based upon Norm Haden's description of the chute he provided. Or DB could have cut four one ft chunks of parachute cord to tie the "front" chute on to the NB8 carrier that he used.

Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com

My God! Three of us agree about something!

 :)
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 03, 2015, 07:02:05 PM
Sail, when did Norm tell you he supplied an NB-8? He told me he provided two identical Pioneers with 26' Steinthauls.

377 - so you're going with Cossey and his NB-8 scenario?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 03, 2015, 07:08:32 PM
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[ Bruce doesn't think you can take ANYTHING Cossey said as a fact.

377
****
Bruce seems to want to throw the baby out with the bath water ?

Not exactly. I want to dive into the bath water with Cossey and find out who is adding the soap.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 03, 2015, 07:10:01 PM
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Bruce doesn't think you can take ANYTHING Cossey said as a fact.

377

Pretty much. You?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: 377 on November 03, 2015, 07:46:37 PM
Cossey really was a parachute expert, but you often had no way to know whether he was BSing or telling the truth... so he is what we lawyers refer to as an unreliable witness.

Bruce, how about querying Norman whether he used pure titanium in his machine shop and whether he also used bismuth (sometimes contained in machining lubricants). Ask him if his chutes may have been exposed to these metals (either by being in proximity to the shop or by his handling of them after being in the shop). Also ask about turned aluminum shavings. Show him TK's tie findings and ask if those materials might have been used in his shop. If the tie was Coopers and it got these metals from Norman's rigs we cant assume anything about Coopers use of these materials in his work.

377
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: sailshaw on November 04, 2015, 09:40:50 AM
377  You say:   "Bruce, how about querying Norman whether he used pure titanium in his machine shop and whether he also used bismuth (sometimes contained in machining lubricants)."

I say all the things found on DB's tie were available from the Scrap Tub Skids around the outside of the M & P Lab (Materials and Processing Lab) just below Sheridan's Office 2nd floor of the 9-101 Building at Boeing. That is where DB/Sheridan would have picked up the things found on the DB tie. Looking into the tub skids, his tie would have fallen into scrap (as did mine) and picked-up all that was found on the tie. This would have been the only place at Boeing where all the things would have been found and in the N.W. too! The things on the DB tie all point directly at where Sheridan worked at Boeing. End of the story and is very good evidence in my mind.

Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on November 04, 2015, 12:58:24 PM
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377  You say:   "Bruce, how about querying Norman whether he used pure titanium in his machine shop and whether he also used bismuth (sometimes contained in machining lubricants)."

I say all the things found on DB's tie were available from the Scrap Tub Skids around the outside of the M & P Lab (Materials and Processing Lab) just below Sheridan's Office 2nd floor of the 9-101 Building at Boeing. That is where DB/Sheridan would have picked up the things found on the DB tie. Looking into the tub skids, his tie would have fallen into scrap (as did mine) and picked-up all that was found on the tie. This would have been the only place at Boeing where all the things would have been found and in the N.W. too! The things on the DB tie all point directly at where Sheridan worked at Boeing. End of the story and is very good evidence in my mind.

Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com

Will there be a Peterson Revival at the Auburn Theatre this year?

 
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on November 04, 2015, 02:03:13 PM
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377  You say:   "Bruce, how about querying Norman whether he used pure titanium in his machine shop and whether he also used bismuth (sometimes contained in machining lubricants)."

I say all the things found on DB's tie were available from the Scrap Tub Skids around the outside of the M & P Lab (Materials and Processing Lab) just below Sheridan's Office 2nd floor of the 9-101 Building at Boeing. That is where DB/Sheridan would have picked up the things found on the DB tie. Looking into the tub skids, his tie would have fallen into scrap (as did mine) and picked-up all that was found on the tie. This would have been the only place at Boeing where all the things would have been found and in the N.W. too! The things on the DB tie all point directly at where Sheridan worked at Boeing. End of the story and is very good evidence in my mind.

Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com

If you still have those ties, I'm sure Tom Kaye would be willing to see just what kind of material got on them as a comparison.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: 377 on November 04, 2015, 05:45:01 PM
Really good point Andrade1812!!

Sailshaw, most engineers don't throw out their long out-of-fashion ties. How do I know? I still have a bunch of those old 60s and early 70s skinny ties myself as do many of my EE friends. Surely you must have a couple that  dipped into the Boeing scrap bins. Lets get them analysed.

If their metal load matches that found on Cooper's alleged tie, I'd say Sheridan Peterson has some serious splaining to do.

377

Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 04, 2015, 07:14:04 PM
Oh, no, not those skinny ties from the 60s. I'm starting to have flash backs to my ol' Catholic Boys School, Chaminade.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 04, 2015, 07:15:31 PM
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Will there be a Peterson Revival at the Auburn Theatre this year?

No.

The festivities will be held at the Seattle Yacht Club. Details to follow...
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on November 06, 2015, 12:06:27 AM
No 3 Bundolas:

Contrary to all the made up stuff from Blevins, there were no "3 Bundolas" offered Mucklow! It never happened

Mucklow is very specific in her interview. (Interview 11-30 Mucklow (Campbell files)). Quote:

When she received the bag containing the money on the ground) She took the bag containing the money back to seat 18-E where the hijacker was seated.

He opened the bag and inspected the contents which Mucklow said she observed was money packed in small packages with bank-type bands around each package. Having inspected the money in a cursory fashion the hijacker stated that “it looks ok” and then indicated to Mucklow that the crew could now let the passengers deplane. She stated that she called the cockpit on the intercom with this message and an announcement was made from the cockpit that passengers could disembark. 

Mucklow recalls that at this time while the passengers were unloading, in an attempt at being humorous, she suggested to the hijacker ‘that there was obviously a lot of money in the bag and could she have some’! The hijacker agreed with her suggestion and (he) reached in and took out one package of the money, denominations not recalled by Mucklow, and he handed the (single) bundle of money to her! Mucklow states that she laughed and gave the money back to the hijacker stating ‘she was not permitted to accept gratuities’, or words to that effect.

In a similar vein Mucklow recalls that at one time during the flight the hijacker had pulled some single bills from his pocket (change from a $20 he was given earlier for a drink he had purchased) and attempted to (give the bills back) to tip the girls on the crew. (He was told then they could not accept tips). So again, they declined in compliance with company policy.


So, the Ingram find of "$5800approx being called 3 Bundolas" has nothing to do with money offered Mucklow - she was only offered one "package" of money, by her own testimony.   

Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on November 06, 2015, 12:56:32 AM
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No 3 Bundolas:

Contrary to all the made up stuff from Blevins, there were no "3 Bundolas" offered Mucklow! It never happened

Mucklow is very specific in her interview. (Interview 11-30 Mucklow (Campbell files)). Quote:

When she received the bag containing the money on the ground) She took the bag containing the money back to seat 18-E where the hijacker was seated.

He opened the bag and inspected the contents which Mucklow said she observed was money packed in small packages with bank-type bands around each package. Having inspected the money in a cursory fashion the hijacker stated that “it looks ok” and then indicated to Mucklow that the crew could now let the passengers deplane. She stated that she called the cockpit on the intercom with this message and an announcement was made from the cockpit that passengers could disembark. 

Mucklow recalls that at this time while the passengers were unloading, in an attempt at being humorous, she suggested to the hijacker ‘that there was obviously a lot of money in the bag and could she have some’! The hijacker agreed with her suggestion and (he) reached in and took out one package of the money, denominations not recalled by Mucklow, and he handed the (single) bundle of money to her! Mucklow states that she laughed and gave the money back to the hijacker stating ‘she was not permitted to accept gratuities’, or words to that effect.

In a similar vein Mucklow recalls that at one time during the flight the hijacker had pulled some single bills from his pocket (change from a $20 he was given earlier for a drink he had purchased) and attempted to (give the bills back) to tip the girls on the crew. (He was told then they could not accept tips). So again, they declined in compliance with company policy.


So, the Ingram find of "$5800approx being called 3 Bundolas" has nothing to do with money offered Mucklow - she was only offered one "package" of money, by her own testimony.

I doubt if it requires a leap of faith to assume that the ONE bundle of money Cooper removed from the bag, in order to offer it to Tina, was then immediately replaced in the money bag or Tina would have noticed and stated otherwise.

And it is probably a safe assumption to say that the money bundles and money fragments arrived at Tina Bar as a result of the same natural event and at very nearly the same time (minutes, hours?) and not over an extended period of time (days?) as a result of multiple natural events.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on November 06, 2015, 04:48:13 PM
It's hard to say how many bundles were actually there since they had different amounts in each bundle. plus, we have extra serial numbers found in the mix with the Ingram's pot.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on November 06, 2015, 07:49:22 PM
The stairs....

Cooper stated in reference to the stairs being deployed prior to takeoff, and the pilot to activate them....

Quote
In a low tone, yes they can, but the cockpit can put it down after they are airborne..

Can we find out if the stair release was changed with the military aircraft. is it possible they converted it?


"Conceivably a 727 with a cargo track like system installed on its floor could carry multiple types of air to ground munitions, which could be rolled onto the main guide track that terminates at the rear air-stair opening after being programmed for release."

There are 2 control handles for the airstairs on a B727, one under a panel on the lower fuselage right beside the stair forward hinge point, and one at the top of the stairs behind a panel on the left side which can only be accessed when the rear cabin door is open. Because the cabin door can only be opened when the aircraft is unpressurized, this usually would prevent its actuation in flight. However, after the D B Cooper hijacking a device was added referred to as an anti-hijack vane that would swing over when the aircraft was in flight and prevent the door opening. To close the door either an electric hydraulic pump has to be turned on in the cockpit, or a hand pump beside the lower control operated while either handle is held to the close position. The door will free fall open without hydraulic pressure, but the support arms may have to be pushed to an overcenter position.

Source(s):
B727 AMM.
Endorsement course for B727

Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on November 06, 2015, 08:10:09 PM
If I'm right, the lever for opening the stairs seems to be covered. it's normally right above the railing on the left side. in the photo you can see a guy with his hand on the railing, but I don't see the box for the releasing of the stairs?

In the conversion they take out the stairs and put down sheet metal on the existing part of the stairs that are permanent. it appears they put sheet metal all around the interior of the stairway.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on November 06, 2015, 11:34:28 PM
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It's hard to say how many bundles were actually there since they had different amounts in each bundle. plus, we have extra serial numbers found in the mix with the Ingram's pot.

Plus, we can't clarify where in the Ingram bundles the remnants of rubber bands were spotted. That makes it impossible to establish what of the Ingram find were bundles, or remnants of bundles. The Ingrams didn't keep track of such details. We just know that somewhere in the total mass of decayed bills the Ingrams noted what looked like rubber band fragments which "turned to dust upon touching".

The estimate of 3 bundolas comes from the Carr statement there was approx $2000 per bundle, which later turned out to be wrong. Since $5800 was identified thats roughly 3 bundolas - later the bank employee said each bundle was something between $1000 to $2000 each, so there is no way to certify how many bundles the Ingram find represents !   

____________________________________________________________________________________________


Following this post I will be reducing my time devoted to the DB Cooper Social Media Vortez, in order to let the LOUD VOICES have more space and time in the Cooper social media dump. So "Cooper celebs" you have the crop circle - it's yours@!

Bye for now.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on November 07, 2015, 01:17:25 AM
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The stairs....

Cooper stated in reference to the stairs being deployed prior to takeoff, and the pilot to activate them....

Quote
In a low tone, yes they can, but the cockpit can put it down after they are airborne..

Can we find out if the stair release was changed with the military aircraft. is it possible they converted it?


In all probability, the modified 727s had more powerful hydraulic pumps for both lowering and raising the stairs in flight.  Perhaps there was a switch on the flight engineer's panel to energize those pumps.  And the control panel for the stairs would be entirely different and perhaps have the ability to lock the stairs at intermediate points as they were lowered.  This could be the reason Cooper was not familiar with the civilian version of the stairs control panel and had trouble with it even after Tina explained it to him.  This matter has been discussed at some length elsewhere over the years.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on November 07, 2015, 07:39:06 AM
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The stairs....

Cooper stated in reference to the stairs being deployed prior to takeoff, and the pilot to activate them....

Quote
In a low tone, yes they can, but the cockpit can put it down after they are airborne..

Can we find out if the stair release was changed with the military aircraft. is it possible they converted it?


In all probability, the modified 727s had more powerful hydraulic pumps for both lowering and raising the stairs in flight.  Perhaps there was a switch on the flight engineer's panel to energize those pumps.  And the control panel for the stairs would be entirely different and perhaps have the ability to lock the stairs at intermediate points as they were lowered.  This could be the reason Cooper was not familiar with the civilian version of the stairs control panel and had trouble with it even after Tina explained it to him.  This matter has been discussed at some length elsewhere over the years.


I just realized something I overlooked. the stairs were removed during the drops...
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on November 07, 2015, 12:40:04 PM
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The stairs....

Cooper stated in reference to the stairs being deployed prior to takeoff, and the pilot to activate them....

Quote
In a low tone, yes they can, but the cockpit can put it down after they are airborne..

Can we find out if the stair release was changed with the military aircraft. is it possible they converted it?


In all probability, the modified 727s had more powerful hydraulic pumps for both lowering and raising the stairs in flight.  Perhaps there was a switch on the flight engineer's panel to energize those pumps.  And the control panel for the stairs would be entirely different and perhaps have the ability to lock the stairs at intermediate points as they were lowered.  This could be the reason Cooper was not familiar with the civilian version of the stairs control panel and had trouble with it even after Tina explained it to him.  This matter has been discussed at some length elsewhere over the years.


I just realized something I overlooked. the stairs were removed during the drops...

They were not removed during the FBI tests since you can see them full down in the photos and one of the USAF jumpers walked down to the bottom step.

The steps were apparently removed during the jumps that are shown in the videos that were taken in Southeast Asia.

But it is unlikely that the stairs were removed for the Boeing OGO/military tests.  The organization that paid for those tests probably wanted to keep the 727 in a "civilian" configuration during the entire time that they operated it.   
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on November 07, 2015, 01:11:38 PM
Correct, I was only referring to the jumps/cargo drops in Asia...


Google has a nice aviation flight planner I wasn't aware of. some of you might find this tool worth looking at..you can also calculate with groundspeed.

http://www.iflightplanner.com/AviationCharts/
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on November 13, 2015, 10:59:42 PM
Do airports keep logs as far back as 71 to determine what planes were coming in and out, or is that too much data to hold?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on November 13, 2015, 11:04:38 PM
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Do airports keep logs as far back as 71 to determine what planes were coming in and out, or is that too much data to hold?

If the airport had a control tower, the tower would probably be the one keeping such a record.  Those records would be useful to the airport administration for charging landing fees, etc., but I doubt the records would be available today.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on November 13, 2015, 11:11:02 PM
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Do airports keep logs as far back as 71 to determine what planes were coming in and out, or is that too much data to hold?

If the airport had a control tower, the tower would probably be the one keeping such a record.  Those records would be useful to the airport administration for charging landing fees, etc., but I doubt the records would be available today.


It would be interesting to know the last 727 leaving Portland prior to Cooper boarding Northwest. he said he "didn't have a grudge against your airline, it was at the right place, and right time"

Could be possible to get a more accurate time of his movement prior to boarding, but I'm guessing the airport had 727's round the clock coming, and going?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on November 13, 2015, 11:29:27 PM
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Do airports keep logs as far back as 71 to determine what planes were coming in and out, or is that too much data to hold?

If the airport had a control tower, the tower would probably be the one keeping such a record.  Those records would be useful to the airport administration for charging landing fees, etc., but I doubt the records would be available today.


It would be interesting to know the last 727 leaving Portland prior to Cooper boarding Northwest. he said he "didn't have a grudge against your airline, it was at the right place, and right time"

Could be possible to get a more accurate time of his movement prior to boarding, but I'm guessing the airport had 727's round the clock coming, and going?

Cooper was specifically looking for a 727 and he asked the NWA ticket agent if the incoming aircraft was a 727.  But in the 1971 era, the airlines had a joint publication that was published ever month or two that listed the airline flights to each city, the equipment used on the routes, the ticket price, the arrival and/or departure times, etc..  So Cooper could have easily checked that publication to determine that a 727 was scheduled for November 24th, 1971.

And my guess is that Cooper only asked the NWA agent about the 727 in order to confirm that his plan was going forward.  If the agent had told him that another aircraft had been substituted for the 727 that day, Cooper would probably have just flown to Seattle and gotten off the airplane.  Then he probably would have planned the hijacking for another day.

Also, remember that NWA had only started operating 727s between Portland and Seattle a couple of months earlier.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on November 14, 2015, 03:00:05 AM
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Do airports keep logs as far back as 71 to determine what planes were coming in and out, or is that too much data to hold?

If the airport had a control tower, the tower would probably be the one keeping such a record.  Those records would be useful to the airport administration for charging landing fees, etc., but I doubt the records would be available today.


It would be interesting to know the last 727 leaving Portland prior to Cooper boarding Northwest. he said he "didn't have a grudge against your airline, it was at the right place, and right time"

Could be possible to get a more accurate time of his movement prior to boarding, but I'm guessing the airport had 727's round the clock coming, and going?

The actual quoted statement is:

In response to her query as to why he had chosen a Northwest airplane to hijack, he said ‘he had “a grudge but not against Northwest Airlines” adding ‘that the Northwest plane just happened to be in the right place at the right time’.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on November 14, 2015, 03:02:11 AM
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The stairs....

Cooper stated in reference to the stairs being deployed prior to takeoff, and the pilot to activate them....

Quote
In a low tone, yes they can, but the cockpit can put it down after they are airborne..

Can we find out if the stair release was changed with the military aircraft. is it possible they converted it?


In all probability, the modified 727s had more powerful hydraulic pumps for both lowering and raising the stairs in flight.  Perhaps there was a switch on the flight engineer's panel to energize those pumps.  And the control panel for the stairs would be entirely different and perhaps have the ability to lock the stairs at intermediate points as they were lowered.  This could be the reason Cooper was not familiar with the civilian version of the stairs control panel and had trouble with it even after Tina explained it to him.  This matter has been discussed at some length elsewhere over the years.

So which version did 305 have?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Shutter on November 14, 2015, 11:34:49 AM
I think they are pretty much the same. the 727 has two Hydraulic systems (A&B)

"B" System
"B" system again contains a single reservoir supplying two electric AC pumps.
It's reservoir is more complicated that system "A" in that it has an
auxiliary reservoir separated by a baffle which is open at the top ("little b"),
this is reserved for alternate extension of the leading edge slats and flaps
using stand by hydraulic power (more about that later).
Each pump is controlled by its individual selection switch; with the switch ON
normal hydraulic output pressure is provided to the system. As in the "A"
system a portion of the fluid is used for cooling and lubrication of the pump but
is returned via a heat exchanger in the no1 fuel tank. if the pressure falls
below the preset level a warning light will illuminate, sensors monitor the fluid
temperature and if activated will bring on an overheat light. A relay in the
overheat sensing circuit will cause the overheat light to go out when the
affected pump is turned off. A simplified view of the system is the same as the
above diagram but with no blocking valve or shut off valve (items 2 & 4).
Fluid Quantity....................Full if system "A" quantity over 2.5 gall
System Pressure............2,800 - 3100 psi (red line @ 3,500)
Baffle level (little B)............1.1 gall
Do not operate a system "B" pump with less than 1,300 lbs in fuel tank No1
Any one hydraulic system "B" pump should not be operated more than 5
times in 5 min's. After this period the pump must be left on for 5 min's or off for
30 min's.

Systems Operated:
Brakes
Inboard Spoilers
Upper Rudder
Aft Airstairs
Ailerons
Elevators
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on November 14, 2015, 12:51:51 PM
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The stairs....

Cooper stated in reference to the stairs being deployed prior to takeoff, and the pilot to activate them....

Quote
In a low tone, yes they can, but the cockpit can put it down after they are airborne..

Can we find out if the stair release was changed with the military aircraft. is it possible they converted it?


In all probability, the modified 727s had more powerful hydraulic pumps for both lowering and raising the stairs in flight.  Perhaps there was a switch on the flight engineer's panel to energize those pumps.  And the control panel for the stairs would be entirely different and perhaps have the ability to lock the stairs at intermediate points as they were lowered.  This could be the reason Cooper was not familiar with the civilian version of the stairs control panel and had trouble with it even after Tina explained it to him.  This matter has been discussed at some length elsewhere over the years.

So which version did 305 have?

The standard production NWA airline version.  But check the reply to Shutter below.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Robert99 on November 14, 2015, 01:03:36 PM
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I think they are pretty much the same. the 727 has two Hydraulic systems (A&B)

"B" System
"B" system again contains a single reservoir supplying two electric AC pumps.
It's reservoir is more complicated that system "A" in that it has an
auxiliary reservoir separated by a baffle which is open at the top ("little b"),
this is reserved for alternate extension of the leading edge slats and flaps
using stand by hydraulic power (more about that later).
Each pump is controlled by its individual selection switch; with the switch ON
normal hydraulic output pressure is provided to the system. As in the "A"
system a portion of the fluid is used for cooling and lubrication of the pump but
is returned via a heat exchanger in the no1 fuel tank. if the pressure falls
below the preset level a warning light will illuminate, sensors monitor the fluid
temperature and if activated will bring on an overheat light. A relay in the
overheat sensing circuit will cause the overheat light to go out when the
affected pump is turned off. A simplified view of the system is the same as the
above diagram but with no blocking valve or shut off valve (items 2 & 4).
Fluid Quantity....................Full if system "A" quantity over 2.5 gall
System Pressure............2,800 - 3100 psi (red line @ 3,500)
Baffle level (little B)............1.1 gall
Do not operate a system "B" pump with less than 1,300 lbs in fuel tank No1
Any one hydraulic system "B" pump should not be operated more than 5
times in 5 min's. After this period the pump must be left on for 5 min's or off for
30 min's.

Systems Operated:
Brakes
Inboard Spoilers
Upper Rudder
Aft Airstairs
Ailerons
Elevators

There is not necessarily just one version of the hydraulic or other systems that applies to all 727s.  Differences may exist between specific aircraft for different airlines.

And someone paid Boeing some money to demonstrate that the 727 could fly with the aft stairs down and that cargo and parachutists could be dropped through that stairway while airborne.  Modifications would have been made to those stairs and the related systems to accommodate the desires of whoever was paying the money to Boeing.

And if I remember 377's previous comments on this subject, Boeing was not willing to part with that modification information for the benefit of the skydiver community.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on November 14, 2015, 02:56:24 PM
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I think they are pretty much the same. the 727 has two Hydraulic systems (A&B)

"B" System
"B" system again contains a single reservoir supplying two electric AC pumps.
It's reservoir is more complicated that system "A" in that it has an
auxiliary reservoir separated by a baffle which is open at the top ("little b"),
this is reserved for alternate extension of the leading edge slats and flaps
using stand by hydraulic power (more about that later).
Each pump is controlled by its individual selection switch; with the switch ON
normal hydraulic output pressure is provided to the system. As in the "A"
system a portion of the fluid is used for cooling and lubrication of the pump but
is returned via a heat exchanger in the no1 fuel tank. if the pressure falls
below the preset level a warning light will illuminate, sensors monitor the fluid
temperature and if activated will bring on an overheat light. A relay in the
overheat sensing circuit will cause the overheat light to go out when the
affected pump is turned off. A simplified view of the system is the same as the
above diagram but with no blocking valve or shut off valve (items 2 & 4).
Fluid Quantity....................Full if system "A" quantity over 2.5 gall
System Pressure............2,800 - 3100 psi (red line @ 3,500)
Baffle level (little B)............1.1 gall
Do not operate a system "B" pump with less than 1,300 lbs in fuel tank No1
Any one hydraulic system "B" pump should not be operated more than 5
times in 5 min's. After this period the pump must be left on for 5 min's or off for
30 min's.

Systems Operated:
Brakes
Inboard Spoilers
Upper Rudder
Aft Airstairs
Ailerons
Elevators

There is not necessarily just one version of the hydraulic or other systems that applies to all 727s.  Differences may exist between specific aircraft for different airlines.

And someone paid Boeing some money to demonstrate that the 727 could fly with the aft stairs down and that cargo and parachutists could be dropped through that stairway while airborne.  Modifications would have been made to those stairs and the related systems to accommodate the desires of whoever was paying the money to Boeing.

And if I remember 377's previous comments on this subject, Boeing was not willing to part with that modification information for the benefit of the skydiver community.

And if I remember 377's previous comments on this subject, Boeing was not willing to part with that modification information for the benefit of the skydiver community.

Even to its own members of the Boeing Sky Diving Club, who worked with the NWA & FBI on the case ?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on November 19, 2015, 12:46:44 AM
How exactly did Don Burnworth get fingered as a Cooper suspect?
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on November 19, 2015, 02:52:19 AM
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I think they are pretty much the same. the 727 has two Hydraulic systems (A&B)

"B" System
"B" system again contains a single reservoir supplying two electric AC pumps.
It's reservoir is more complicated that system "A" in that it has an
auxiliary reservoir separated by a baffle which is open at the top ("little b"),
this is reserved for alternate extension of the leading edge slats and flaps
using stand by hydraulic power (more about that later).
Each pump is controlled by its individual selection switch; with the switch ON
normal hydraulic output pressure is provided to the system. As in the "A"
system a portion of the fluid is used for cooling and lubrication of the pump but
is returned via a heat exchanger in the no1 fuel tank. if the pressure falls
below the preset level a warning light will illuminate, sensors monitor the fluid
temperature and if activated will bring on an overheat light. A relay in the
overheat sensing circuit will cause the overheat light to go out when the
affected pump is turned off. A simplified view of the system is the same as the
above diagram but with no blocking valve or shut off valve (items 2 & 4).
Fluid Quantity....................Full if system "A" quantity over 2.5 gall
System Pressure............2,800 - 3100 psi (red line @ 3,500)
Baffle level (little B)............1.1 gall
Do not operate a system "B" pump with less than 1,300 lbs in fuel tank No1
Any one hydraulic system "B" pump should not be operated more than 5
times in 5 min's. After this period the pump must be left on for 5 min's or off for
30 min's.

Systems Operated:
Brakes
Inboard Spoilers
Upper Rudder
Aft Airstairs
Ailerons
Elevators

There is not necessarily just one version of the hydraulic or other systems that applies to all 727s.  Differences may exist between specific aircraft for different airlines.

And someone paid Boeing some money to demonstrate that the 727 could fly with the aft stairs down and that cargo and parachutists could be dropped through that stairway while airborne.  Modifications would have been made to those stairs and the related systems to accommodate the desires of whoever was paying the money to Boeing.

And if I remember 377's previous comments on this subject, Boeing was not willing to part with that modification information for the benefit of the skydiver community.

And if I remember 377's previous comments on this subject, Boeing was not willing to part with that modification information for the benefit of the skydiver community.

Even to its own members of the Boeing Sky Diving Club, who worked with the NWA & FBI on the case ?

Regardless of what 377 claims, a Boeing spokesman gave it to the whole world via the Assoc Press  On Nov 30th. So if it was Top Secret before 11-24-71 it was known to the whole world after the 30th of Nov 1971. I'm always skeptical of well known secrets thousands of people know about ... but the next guy doesn't!  ;)

Oh. And citing airplanes that don't have stairs but have been jumped siccessfully ... has nothing to do with this! Erecting a straw man is not an argument or proof of anything .. specifically, socalled secrecy issues of the 727.  :)
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 19, 2015, 03:28:28 AM
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How exactly did Don Burnworth get fingered as a Cooper suspect?

I got the Burnworth story from Galen, who got it from a flight attendant on Alaska Airlines, who got it from a guy who doesn't want his true identity revealed, so I call him "Mike."

Mike's story about Burnworth is in my book. Plus, I conducted several interviews with Don and his daughter, and some other family members and mafia sources in KC. The FBI interviewed Don in late August 1972, in San Francisco.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on November 19, 2015, 07:34:54 PM
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How exactly did Don Burnworth get fingered as a Cooper suspect?

I got the Burnworth story from Galen, who got it from a flight attendant on Alaska Airlines, who got it from a guy who doesn't want his true identity revealed, so I call him "Mike."

Mike's story about Burnworth is in my book. Plus, I conducted several interviews with Don and his daughter, and some other family members and mafia sources in KC. The FBI interviewed Don in late August 1972, in San Francisco.

I'll have to re-read that part.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: 377 on November 19, 2015, 08:00:52 PM
Burnworth is not only a 727 pilot, he is a systems expert. He has an issued patent that discloses a significant improvement to the way Boeing manages 727 power busses. Interestingly it is centered around electrical loads as they relate to wing flap extension.

http://patents.justia.com/patent/4317177

Patent number: 4317177
Abstract: A control system prevents electrical overloads in an aircraft of the type in which electrical loads are automatically connected to an electrical supply bus when the wing flaps are extended. The control system determines the maximum capability of the electrical generators for generating electricity and determines the wing flap position. Because electrical load is related to the wing flap position in this type of aircraft, the control system automatically correlates the wing flap position to electrical load. The control system operatively disconnects electrical load from the supply bus, or prevents energization of additional electrical load, when it determines that the maximum power generating capacity of the operative electrical generators will be exceeded by the automatic connection of the electrical load upon extension of the wing flaps.A test circuit apparatus is used for checking proper operation of the control system.
Type: Grant
Filed: January 14, 1980
Issued: February 23, 1982
Assignee: Martin P. Miller
Inventor: Donald O. Burnworth

377

Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 19, 2015, 09:26:17 PM
Don was an interesting interview. Often hard to corral and cranky when it came to returning phone calls, he nevertheless loved talking about DB Cooper. He told his story with such conviction and clarity it was often easy to forget that he was bat-shit crazy. But such is madness. He was also wonderfully honest about his love-life, amazing me with his accounts of chasing after his wife and kids with his mistress in tow.

And just when I thought Don was totally certifiable, I had a guy in KC "law enforcement" tell me that the story about Don's ex's mafia princess family staging the DB Cooper skyjacking as a ploy to obtain child custody wasn't totally coo-coo. In fact, he told me that "la senora" wasn't as squeaky clean as the official records indicated, but "you didn't hear that from me."

I didn't put THAT in the book, by the way, since neither 377 nor Galen have passed the bar in Kansas. Just sayin'...

Lastly, Don passed away in 2012 of cancer. He was 82.

RIP, Captain.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on November 20, 2015, 12:07:37 AM
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How exactly did Don Burnworth get fingered as a Cooper suspect?

I got the Burnworth story from Galen, who got it from a flight attendant on Alaska Airlines, who got it from a guy who doesn't want his true identity revealed, so I call him "Mike."

Mike's story about Burnworth is in my book. Plus, I conducted several interviews with Don and his daughter, and some other family members and mafia sources in KC. The FBI interviewed Don in late August 1972, in San Francisco.

I'll have to re-read that part.

Here we go again. Revisiting 2010 for some reason? You can read all the essentials here, basically, in a serie of posts le Dropzone.com: http://www.dropzone.com/forum/Skydiving_C1/Skydiving_History_&_Trivia_F21/DB_Cooper_P3110098-699

That and of course these fishbones to fill in any missing links: https://www.google.com/#q=don+burnworth+db+cooper


Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: andrade1812 on November 20, 2015, 01:44:19 AM
Quote
Here we go again. Revisiting 2010 for some reason?

I'm not revisiting, I wasn't there. I bother you guys because you have all the shortcuts.
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: georger on November 20, 2015, 03:44:22 AM
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Quote
Here we go again. Revisiting 2010 for some reason?

I'm not revisiting, I wasn't there. I bother you guys because you have all the shortcuts.

It's no bother, Andra-, and it has historical value. I just wanted you to see where the core of forum discussion about about this subject was, what had been said before, etc. As long as the DZ archive is still alive its a valuable resource.
 8)
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Prospector on March 07, 2016, 07:26:31 PM
Correct me if I’m wrong, but as far as I can tell from the research I have done into the DB Cooper mystery, there are three scenarios that exist (discounting conspiracy theories):

1.   Cooper exited the aircraft, could not get his chute open, drilled into the duff and perished;
2.   Cooper exited the aircraft, landed in a water body and perished;
3.   Cooper exited the aircraft, survived the jump, escaped the dragnet, and:
a.   deceased some time afterward, or,
b.   remains alive today.

If #1 is true, considering the time that has passed, Coopers’ remains would likely be decomposed and tied-up in the nutrient cycle of the forest ecosystem and scant evidence may remain intact that could identify who DB Cooper was.  Perhaps one day any surviving evidence will be discovered by a Cooper researcher, logger, hunter, road builder, forest firefighter, etc...

If #2 is true, again considering the time that has passed, it is likely that all physical evidence that could indicate who DB Cooper was may be buried in sediments and/or decomposed to an unrecognizable form and washed out to sea as fish food.  For someone, perhaps a recent kipper entrée is DB Cooper.  He is part of the food chain. 

If #3a is true, and if he did not meet his fate by foul play and fed to the pigs or dissolved in a vat of acid, it is conceivable that evidence may surface that sheds light on who DB Cooper was.  An autopsy report, a personal item with fingerprints or DNA sample, photographs, etc...

If #3b is true, he walks amongst us today.  It then goes without saying, all the evidence would exist to identify who DB Cooper is.  The trick is spotting him within the 7 billion+ people on the planet today.  Perhaps a simple process of elimination or a sharp-eyed someone is all that is required to solve the enduring mystery.

44 years and counting, 1000+ people scrutinized – and nothing – this despite so many talented people seeking Coopers’ true identity considering the scenarios listed above.  Is it just a matter of people looking in the wrong places or is there another scenario not accounted for – is there some validity to any of the countless conspiracy theories floating around?  After giving it much thought, I suspect he survived the jump and escaped the dragnet.  Observation tells me it is plausible that he may still be with us today.  So now there is yet one more person looking at faces in the crowd for John Doe (a.k.a. Dan Cooper) (a.k.a. DB Cooper).

Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: 377 on March 07, 2016, 07:36:41 PM
The cadmium plated harness hardware on the NB8 rig, the ripcord pin cones,  the riser connector links and (stainless steel?) ripcord cable tube could literally survive for centuries.

A long time ago I posted info about submerged unopened WW2 parachutes found 70 years later in great shape.

If above ground, UV would likely destroy all the nylon stuff eventually, but some of the metal parts could last a long long time.

The flexible segmented cable tube is very distinctive and if found with other hardware might cause further inquiry and subsequent identification as parachute gear.

377
Title: Re: General Questions About The Case
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 07, 2016, 10:09:18 PM
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