Author Topic: General Questions About The Case  (Read 620173 times)

Offline georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2475 on: May 12, 2020, 11:50:09 PM »
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Hi all.  I'm brand new to this forum, and have only spent about a month learning about Cooper, though I'm a veteran of several other rabbit holes, true crime and otherwise.  As my screen name indicates, my expertise is in books.  I'm an academic librarian, long-time bookseller, former English major, and independent researcher.  The contention that the phrase "negotiable American currency" indicates that Cooper was not from the U.S. does not ring true to me.  Not to pick on the fine folks at the Citizen Sleuths website, but their statement is a good example.  They say, "Since no American citizen would use those terms, it suggests that Cooper was not originally from this country."  I did some quick checking in Google Books and the Internet Archive, and came up with three instances of the phrase, and three more of the phrase "negotiable U.S. currency."  All are from U.S. publications, four of the six are clearly American authors, and the uses range in publication date from 1963 to 2002.  I list them below.  I have screen shots of all, if anyone wants context.  For now, I'll just attach the first one with an unidentified author.

Unknown author, Car Life Magazine, 1963, uses “negotiable American currency.”

Philbrooke Paine, born 1910, journalist from New Hampshire, author of Squarely Behind the Beavers, 1963, page 29, uses “negotiable American currency.”

John Reese, born 1910 in Nebraska, western and crime writer, “The World’s Second Oldest Profession,” Mike Shayne Mystery Magazine Annual 1972, page 57, uses “negotiable American currency.”

Veronica Geng, born 1941 in Atlanta, raised in Philadelphia, acclaimed editor and writer for publications such as the New Yorker, New York Times, Love Trouble: New and Collected Work, 1999, page 198, uses “negotiable U.S. currency.”

David McClintick, born 1940, raised in Kansas and Montana, Swordfish : a true story of ambition, savagery, and betrayal, 1993, page 216, uses “negotiable U.S. currency.”

The Currency Dealer Newsletter: October 2002, page 110, published in California, uses “negotiable U.S. currency.”

I suddenly feel less lonely!  amazing!  (1) are you familiar with Gerald Fitzgerald's work building an Ideolect for the Unabomber?   (2) I agree with your negotiable Am currency opinion... that was due to Carol Abrakazinkis (sp?) who was on Kaye's team at the time. As far as I know the phrase was never proven to have been uttered by Cooper. There were so many voices/interpreters between Cooper and the pilots and whoever may have coined this phrase that it is impossible to prove it came from Cooper. The only solid context for this phrase is the fact Cooper wanted to go to Mexico (a foreign country), he specified no landings anywhere in the USA etc. That sets the stage for somebody coming up with 'negotiable American currency' which Carol then attributes to Cooper.  ............. I'll let it go at that.

Welcome to the forum. This could get interesting. 

How about Cooper's phrase:  "get the show on the road" ... ?     
« Last Edit: May 12, 2020, 11:55:10 PM by georger »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2476 on: May 12, 2020, 11:56:02 PM »
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Hi all.  I'm brand new to this forum, and have only spent about a month learning about Cooper, though I'm a veteran of several other rabbit holes, true crime and otherwise.  As my screen name indicates, my expertise is in books.  I'm an academic librarian, long-time bookseller, former English major, and independent researcher.  The contention that the phrase "negotiable American currency" indicates that Cooper was not from the U.S. does not ring true to me.  Not to pick on the fine folks at the Citizen Sleuths website, but their statement is a good example.  They say, "Since no American citizen would use those terms, it suggests that Cooper was not originally from this country."  I did some quick checking in Google Books and the Internet Archive, and came up with three instances of the phrase, and three more of the phrase "negotiable U.S. currency."  All are from U.S. publications, four of the six are clearly American authors, and the uses range in publication date from 1963 to 2002.  I list them below.  I have screen shots of all, if anyone wants context.  For now, I'll just attach the first one with an unidentified author.

Unknown author, Car Life Magazine, 1963, uses “negotiable American currency.”

Philbrooke Paine, born 1910, journalist from New Hampshire, author of Squarely Behind the Beavers, 1963, page 29, uses “negotiable American currency.”

John Reese, born 1910 in Nebraska, western and crime writer, “The World’s Second Oldest Profession,” Mike Shayne Mystery Magazine Annual 1972, page 57, uses “negotiable American currency.”

Veronica Geng, born 1941 in Atlanta, raised in Philadelphia, acclaimed editor and writer for publications such as the New Yorker, New York Times, Love Trouble: New and Collected Work, 1999, page 198, uses “negotiable U.S. currency.”

David McClintick, born 1940, raised in Kansas and Montana, Swordfish : a true story of ambition, savagery, and betrayal, 1993, page 216, uses “negotiable U.S. currency.”

The Currency Dealer Newsletter: October 2002, page 110, published in California, uses “negotiable U.S. currency.”

Bookman, welcome to the site...material removed.. I do have a few questions about how you determined the above.

1.  I note that your research covered the 1910 to 2002 time frame based on the dates of the publications you cited.  I presume that you actually searched from 2020 to some time before 1910.  Did you search all available sources on Google Books and the Internet Archive or only a selected portion of those sources?  Do you have an estimate of the number of sources you searched?

2.  My desk dictionary has several definitions for "negotiable" and the one that seems most applicable to this case is "passable".  I am not aware of any American currency in circulation that is not "passable" in this country, so I consider this word to be redundant and unnecessary.  Do you have a different explanation for the use of this word?

3.  I also consider the term "American" to be unnecessary.  Did Cooper have any expectation of receiving currency from any other country?

4.  My desk dictionary defines "currency" in this context as "a system of money in general use in a particular country".  This word also seems to be redundant and unnecessary.  Do you have another explanation for Cooper's use of this word?

Assuming that Cooper actually used the "negotiable American currency" phrase, it may or may not have been on the initial note that he passed to Flo and which he retrieved, then I suspect that he was an American with recent experience outside the USA or was not an American in the first place.  Using three successive redundant or unnecessary words is not something that I think a local American hijacker would do.  Note that Cooper was very precise in his communications and not given to excessive verbiage.

I think a local American hijacker would have said something like:  "I want $200,000."  And he might also have stated the denominations of the bills.  However, Cooper apparently did not state a denomination.

Your comments on the above will be appreciated.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2020, 12:15:35 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2477 on: May 13, 2020, 12:01:05 AM »
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Hi all.  I'm brand new to this forum, and have only spent about a month learning about Cooper, though I'm a veteran of several other rabbit holes, true crime and otherwise.  As my screen name indicates, my expertise is in books.  I'm an academic librarian, long-time bookseller, former English major, and independent researcher.  The contention that the phrase "negotiable American currency" indicates that Cooper was not from the U.S. does not ring true to me.  Not to pick on the fine folks at the Citizen Sleuths website, but their statement is a good example.  They say, "Since no American citizen would use those terms, it suggests that Cooper was not originally from this country."  I did some quick checking in Google Books and the Internet Archive, and came up with three instances of the phrase, and three more of the phrase "negotiable U.S. currency."  All are from U.S. publications, four of the six are clearly American authors, and the uses range in publication date from 1963 to 2002.  I list them below.  I have screen shots of all, if anyone wants context.  For now, I'll just attach the first one with an unidentified author.

Unknown author, Car Life Magazine, 1963, uses “negotiable American currency.”

Philbrooke Paine, born 1910, journalist from New Hampshire, author of Squarely Behind the Beavers, 1963, page 29, uses “negotiable American currency.”

John Reese, born 1910 in Nebraska, western and crime writer, “The World’s Second Oldest Profession,” Mike Shayne Mystery Magazine Annual 1972, page 57, uses “negotiable American currency.”

Veronica Geng, born 1941 in Atlanta, raised in Philadelphia, acclaimed editor and writer for publications such as the New Yorker, New York Times, Love Trouble: New and Collected Work, 1999, page 198, uses “negotiable U.S. currency.”

David McClintick, born 1940, raised in Kansas and Montana, Swordfish : a true story of ambition, savagery, and betrayal, 1993, page 216, uses “negotiable U.S. currency.”

The Currency Dealer Newsletter: October 2002, page 110, published in California, uses “negotiable U.S. currency.”

I suddenly feel less lonely!  amazing!  (1) are you familiar with Gerald Fitzgerald's work building an Ideolect for the Unabomber?   (2) I agree with your negotiable Am currency opinion... that was due to Carol Abrakazinkis (sp?) who was on Kaye's team at the time. As far as I know the phrase was never proven to have been uttered by Cooper. There were so many voices/interpreters between Cooper and the pilots and whoever may have coined this phrase that it is impossible to prove it came from Cooper. The only solid context for this phrase is the fact Cooper wanted to go to Mexico (a foreign country), he specified no landings anywhere in the USA etc. That sets the stage for somebody coming up with 'negotiable American currency' which Carol then attributes to Cooper.  ............. I'll let it go at that.

Welcome to the forum. This could get interesting. 

How about Cooper's phrase:  "get the show on the road" ... ?     

Doesn't the phrase "negotiable American currency" appear in Flo's notes?
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2478 on: May 13, 2020, 12:16:48 AM »
The comments have been removed...enough already....
 

Offline Bookman Old Style

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2479 on: May 13, 2020, 01:57:49 AM »
Thank you both for the warm welcome.  Georger, I wasn't familiar with Fitzgerald's work, although I certainly remember that the Unabomber manifesto was the subject of intense analysis.  In fact, I had a highly plausible candidate at the time, based on the manifesto, before Kaczynski was apprehended.  Needless to say, I am not an expert forensic linguist, and I was wrong.  I have read Don Foster's "Author Unknown."  I enjoyed it, though I think he actually has a bit of a tin ear, especially when it comes to Shakespeare, his specialty.  I'm fascinated by idiolect, but have a high bar for being convinced of conclusions.  Language is a slippery thing.

All that said...I understand that Cooper himself may not have said "negotiable American currency."   I am too green, by far, in all things Cooper, to trace when it was attributed to him.  Someone said it, though, and the question of whether it's common, or proper, American usage is an easier question.  Which brings me to Robert99's questions.  In brief, I searched the entire corpus of Google Books and the Internet Archive for the two phrases- "negotiable American currency" and "negotiable U.S. currency."  There were not many hits, a few dozen in Google, and a lot fewer in the Internet Archive.  There were many, many more hits for the phrase "negotiable currency."  Too many to be useful.  I skipped over the hits related to DB Cooper books.  Of the remainder, I looked for quotes from a variety of types of writing- fiction, non-fiction, pre-1971 and post-1971, etc.  I did enough quick research on authors to determine whether they were native speakers of English, raised in the US.  My search was not exhaustive, or scientific.  But in this case, I don't think it has to be.

My conclusion is that the phrases "negotiable American currency," and "negotiable U.S. currency" are not common, but are not super-rare, nor are they incorrect.  A couple of the uses I found seem to be intended as mildly humorous- the writer deliberately using a "fancy" phrase, rather than saying something like "cold hard cash."  Several of the uses are just literal and descriptive.  The final example, from The Currency Dealer Newsletter, likely has a more technical financial meaning.  The most straightforward definition I could find for negotiable instruments is the following from an online business dictionary: "Negotiable instruments are unconditional orders or promise to pay, and include checks, drafts, bearer bonds, some certificates of deposit, promissory notes, and bank notes (currency)."

IF Dan Cooper did use the phrase, it could indicate some background in banking or finance.  On the other hand, he could have simply been being very precise, in the manner of an engineer or scientist.  He could have meant "I don't want gold bars, Mexican pesos or untraceable bearer bonds. Nothing exotic-this isn't a movie.  Just give me regular negotiable American currency."

P.S.  As for the phrase "let's get this show on the road," this seems to be primarily an American saying, and very common, to the point of being a cliche, especially in the 1960s.

 
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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2480 on: May 13, 2020, 03:32:10 AM »
Welcome, Bookman. Good to have you aboard.

What brings you to Cooper World?
 

Offline georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2481 on: May 13, 2020, 04:47:12 AM »
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Thank you both for the warm welcome.  Georger, I wasn't familiar with Fitzgerald's work, although I certainly remember that the Unabomber manifesto was the subject of intense analysis.  In fact, I had a highly plausible candidate at the time, based on the manifesto, before Kaczynski was apprehended.  Needless to say, I am not an expert forensic linguist, and I was wrong.  I have read Don Foster's "Author Unknown."  I enjoyed it, though I think he actually has a bit of a tin ear, especially when it comes to Shakespeare, his specialty.  I'm fascinated by idiolect, but have a high bar for being convinced of conclusions.  Language is a slippery thing.

All that said...I understand that Cooper himself may not have said "negotiable American currency."   I am too green, by far, in all things Cooper, to trace when it was attributed to him.  Someone said it, though, and the question of whether it's common, or proper, American usage is an easier question.  Which brings me to Robert99's questions.  In brief, I searched the entire corpus of Google Books and the Internet Archive for the two phrases- "negotiable American currency" and "negotiable U.S. currency."  There were not many hits, a few dozen in Google, and a lot fewer in the Internet Archive.  There were many, many more hits for the phrase "negotiable currency."  Too many to be useful.  I skipped over the hits related to DB Cooper books.  Of the remainder, I looked for quotes from a variety of types of writing- fiction, non-fiction, pre-1971 and post-1971, etc.  I did enough quick research on authors to determine whether they were native speakers of English, raised in the US.  My search was not exhaustive, or scientific.  But in this case, I don't think it has to be.

My conclusion is that the phrases "negotiable American currency," and "negotiable U.S. currency" are not common, but are not super-rare, nor are they incorrect.  A couple of the uses I found seem to be intended as mildly humorous- the writer deliberately using a "fancy" phrase, rather than saying something like "cold hard cash."  Several of the uses are just literal and descriptive.  The final example, from The Currency Dealer Newsletter, likely has a more technical financial meaning.  The most straightforward definition I could find for negotiable instruments is the following from an online business dictionary: "Negotiable instruments are unconditional orders or promise to pay, and include checks, drafts, bearer bonds, some certificates of deposit, promissory notes, and bank notes (currency)."

IF Dan Cooper did use the phrase, it could indicate some background in banking or finance.  On the other hand, he could have simply been being very precise, in the manner of an engineer or scientist.  He could have meant "I don't want gold bars, Mexican pesos or untraceable bearer bonds. Nothing exotic-this isn't a movie.  Just give me regular negotiable American currency."

P.S.  As for the phrase "let's get this show on the road," this seems to be primarily an American saying, and very common, to the point of being a cliche, especially in the 1960s.

Let's do a 'Fitzgerald' - . Did "let's get this show on the road" begin in the midwest (Chicago - in reference to the circus) in the early 20th century. I asked an etymologist and that is what he thought but we could never go any deeper? By 71 the idiom was almost everywhere. I just dont find any critical phrases or references Cooper used which would nail down an area of origin, operation, or have an occupational link. No foreign phrases that stand out in spite of Flo saying she thought Cooper was Latin ? And, there are no recordings of Cooper on the interphone or behind Tina while she was using the interphone with Cooper talking to her in the background. I would like nothing better than a voice print of DB Cooper - something concrete a lab could work on.  ;)

Fitzgerald and his team had a lucky match: key phrases, spellings, and grammar in the Manifesto matched text in a Chicago newspaper editorial Fitzgerald's team had found, but the writer was untraceable.  Soon after,  as I recall this, Fitzgerald was contacted by Ted's brother whose wife had noticed phrases and grammar in the NYTimes Manifesto that matched writings she had edited for Ted years earlier when she was proof reading Ted's writings for lectures and editorials! Fitzgerald faxed Ted's brother the old Chicago Tribune editorial and Ted's brother reported back that his wife had identified the Chicago editorial as one of Ted's, at a time when Ted was living in Chicago. That cracked the case. And, Ted's brother knew exactly where Ted could be found living at Lincoln Montana. A massive effort to apprehend Ted was launched! 

Then a reporter at a newspaper in Helena Montana surfaced, just before the FBI went to Montana to get Kaczynski! This reporter was a graduate of the Linguistics program at SUI in Iowa City. This reporter had also matched key phrases and grammar in the Manifesto with similar phrases in editorials he had received at Helena from some guy named Ted Kaczynski who was living at Lincoln, MT ... a regular user of the public library at Lincoln, a reader of the Helena newspaper, and a writer of editorials he was mailing to the Helena newspaper from the small library at Lincoln! He had met Kaczynski personally several times, when Ted would take the bus to Helena and spend the day!   ...................  small world!

I will be interested in anything you find of interest in the Cooper case... good luck with your work here.
   
« Last Edit: May 13, 2020, 05:29:36 AM by georger »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2482 on: May 13, 2020, 11:09:28 AM »
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Thank you both for the warm welcome.  Georger, I wasn't familiar with Fitzgerald's work, although I certainly remember that the Unabomber manifesto was the subject of intense analysis.  In fact, I had a highly plausible candidate at the time, based on the manifesto, before Kaczynski was apprehended.  Needless to say, I am not an expert forensic linguist, and I was wrong.  I have read Don Foster's "Author Unknown."  I enjoyed it, though I think he actually has a bit of a tin ear, especially when it comes to Shakespeare, his specialty.  I'm fascinated by idiolect, but have a high bar for being convinced of conclusions.  Language is a slippery thing.

All that said...I understand that Cooper himself may not have said "negotiable American currency."   I am too green, by far, in all things Cooper, to trace when it was attributed to him.  Someone said it, though, and the question of whether it's common, or proper, American usage is an easier question.  Which brings me to Robert99's questions.  In brief, I searched the entire corpus of Google Books and the Internet Archive for the two phrases- "negotiable American currency" and "negotiable U.S. currency."  There were not many hits, a few dozen in Google, and a lot fewer in the Internet Archive.  There were many, many more hits for the phrase "negotiable currency."  Too many to be useful.  I skipped over the hits related to DB Cooper books.  Of the remainder, I looked for quotes from a variety of types of writing- fiction, non-fiction, pre-1971 and post-1971, etc.  I did enough quick research on authors to determine whether they were native speakers of English, raised in the US.  My search was not exhaustive, or scientific.  But in this case, I don't think it has to be.

My conclusion is that the phrases "negotiable American currency," and "negotiable U.S. currency" are not common, but are not super-rare, nor are they incorrect.  A couple of the uses I found seem to be intended as mildly humorous- the writer deliberately using a "fancy" phrase, rather than saying something like "cold hard cash."  Several of the uses are just literal and descriptive.  The final example, from The Currency Dealer Newsletter, likely has a more technical financial meaning.  The most straightforward definition I could find for negotiable instruments is the following from an online business dictionary: "Negotiable instruments are unconditional orders or promise to pay, and include checks, drafts, bearer bonds, some certificates of deposit, promissory notes, and bank notes (currency)."

IF Dan Cooper did use the phrase, it could indicate some background in banking or finance.  On the other hand, he could have simply been being very precise, in the manner of an engineer or scientist.  He could have meant "I don't want gold bars, Mexican pesos or untraceable bearer bonds. Nothing exotic-this isn't a movie.  Just give me regular negotiable American currency."

P.S.  As for the phrase "let's get this show on the road," this seems to be primarily an American saying, and very common, to the point of being a cliche, especially in the 1960s.

Thank you for your reply.  There is also the possibility, which I deliberately didn't mention earlier, that the "negotiable American currency" phrase was simply a throwaway type of comment.  I'm sure that you have a better word for it, but Cooper may have just been tossing the phrase out as a sort of light hearted calming gesture to keep the flight attendants from freaking out.
 

Offline fcastle866

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2483 on: May 13, 2020, 11:24:57 AM »
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Thank you both for the warm welcome.  Georger, I wasn't familiar with Fitzgerald's work, although I certainly remember that the Unabomber manifesto was the subject of intense analysis.  In fact, I had a highly plausible candidate at the time, based on the manifesto, before Kaczynski was apprehended.  Needless to say, I am not an expert forensic linguist, and I was wrong.  I have read Don Foster's "Author Unknown."  I enjoyed it, though I think he actually has a bit of a tin ear, especially when it comes to Shakespeare, his specialty.  I'm fascinated by idiolect, but have a high bar for being convinced of conclusions.  Language is a slippery thing.

All that said...I understand that Cooper himself may not have said "negotiable American currency."   I am too green, by far, in all things Cooper, to trace when it was attributed to him.  Someone said it, though, and the question of whether it's common, or proper, American usage is an easier question.  Which brings me to Robert99's questions.  In brief, I searched the entire corpus of Google Books and the Internet Archive for the two phrases- "negotiable American currency" and "negotiable U.S. currency."  There were not many hits, a few dozen in Google, and a lot fewer in the Internet Archive.  There were many, many more hits for the phrase "negotiable currency."  Too many to be useful.  I skipped over the hits related to DB Cooper books.  Of the remainder, I looked for quotes from a variety of types of writing- fiction, non-fiction, pre-1971 and post-1971, etc.  I did enough quick research on authors to determine whether they were native speakers of English, raised in the US.  My search was not exhaustive, or scientific.  But in this case, I don't think it has to be.

My conclusion is that the phrases "negotiable American currency," and "negotiable U.S. currency" are not common, but are not super-rare, nor are they incorrect.  A couple of the uses I found seem to be intended as mildly humorous- the writer deliberately using a "fancy" phrase, rather than saying something like "cold hard cash."  Several of the uses are just literal and descriptive.  The final example, from The Currency Dealer Newsletter, likely has a more technical financial meaning.  The most straightforward definition I could find for negotiable instruments is the following from an online business dictionary: "Negotiable instruments are unconditional orders or promise to pay, and include checks, drafts, bearer bonds, some certificates of deposit, promissory notes, and bank notes (currency)."

IF Dan Cooper did use the phrase, it could indicate some background in banking or finance.  On the other hand, he could have simply been being very precise, in the manner of an engineer or scientist.  He could have meant "I don't want gold bars, Mexican pesos or untraceable bearer bonds. Nothing exotic-this isn't a movie.  Just give me regular negotiable American currency."

P.S.  As for the phrase "let's get this show on the road," this seems to be primarily an American saying, and very common, to the point of being a cliche, especially in the 1960s.

Let's do a 'Fitzgerald' - . Did "let's get this show on the road" begin in the midwest (Chicago - in reference to the circus) in the early 20th century. I asked an etymologist and that is what he thought but we could never go any deeper? By 71 the idiom was almost everywhere. I just dont find any critical phrases or references Cooper used which would nail down an area of origin, operation, or have an occupational link. No foreign phrases that stand out in spite of Flo saying she thought Cooper was Latin ? And, there are no recordings of Cooper on the interphone or behind Tina while she was using the interphone with Cooper talking to her in the background. I would like nothing better than a voice print of DB Cooper - something concrete a lab could work on.  ;)

Fitzgerald and his team had a lucky match: key phrases, spellings, and grammar in the Manifesto matched text in a Chicago newspaper editorial Fitzgerald's team had found, but the writer was untraceable.  Soon after,  as I recall this, Fitzgerald was contacted by Ted's brother whose wife had noticed phrases and grammar in the NYTimes Manifesto that matched writings she had edited for Ted years earlier when she was proof reading Ted's writings for lectures and editorials! Fitzgerald faxed Ted's brother the old Chicago Tribune editorial and Ted's brother reported back that his wife had identified the Chicago editorial as one of Ted's, at a time when Ted was living in Chicago. That cracked the case. And, Ted's brother knew exactly where Ted could be found living at Lincoln Montana. A massive effort to apprehend Ted was launched! 

Then a reporter at a newspaper in Helena Montana surfaced, just before the FBI went to Montana to get Kaczynski! This reporter was a graduate of the Linguistics program at SUI in Iowa City. This reporter had also matched key phrases and grammar in the Manifesto with similar phrases in editorials he had received at Helena from some guy named Ted Kaczynski who was living at Lincoln, MT ... a regular user of the public library at Lincoln, a reader of the Helena newspaper, and a writer of editorials he was mailing to the Helena newspaper from the small library at Lincoln! He had met Kaczynski personally several times, when Ted would take the bus to Helena and spend the day!   ...................  small world!

I will be interested in anything you find of interest in the Cooper case... good luck with your work here.
   

Georger-some comments on Unabomber.  It looks like you and I have a couple things in common, one is interest in the Unabomber.  Note: His name was James Fitzgerald, not Gerald.  Typo I'm guessing on your part.

I've listened to a number of podcasts with Fitzgerald as the guest, and the one big set of text or words he discusses that made a huge difference in catching Unabomber was the use of the phrase "eat your cake and have it too" versus "have your cake and eat it too."  This use pointed to someone educated, and it matched up with a letter Kaczynszi wrote to a magazine once.  Fitzgerald also noted that his manifesto looked like a research paper from the 1940's.

The point on these is that Fitzgerald basically said that it is difficult to use his approach on just a few words, and that the Unabomber's manifesto really made the difference. The same concept is discussed in relation to Zodiac.  The longer the letters, the more info you have to use.  Same goes for breaking the German Enigma codes or codes in general.

We just don't have enough info on what Cooper said to really make a decision either way.  Don't get me wrong, his words help, but they also hurt.  The "negotiable currency" is actually written in the crew notes (Marty's book has those), I believe it is from Tina though, so if Cooper wrote it, and Flo had the note until Cooper took it back, then how did Tina see it?  An early belief was that Cooper was Canadian, simply because of that term "negotiable currency" and that he seemed to have no accent.  So if the "negotiable currency" was not even mentioned, then would we even be having a discussion about Canada?

I was bored and did some research on Flo's family. Her father was from Massachusetts, even though she was from Arkansas, but she may have been used to a bit of a Northeast accent.  Tina was from Philadelphia.  One of my hypotheses is that Cooper could have had an accent, and it was just not picked up by Tina, because it seemed normal to her, or it was just not a heavy accent.

I highly recommend the Unabomber show that came out recently with Paul Bettany and Sam Worthington.  It's educational and entertaining.

Bookman, good approach on "negotiable currency" in books. I did some basic searches and really could not come up with much.  I'd be curious to see not where it is used in books or articles, but in TV or film or comic books.  Books and articles typically use good English.  I'd look for similar situations to hijackings, like bank robberies, and see how those go down.  It makes me think of The Usual Suspects "Give me the keys you f***ng..."
 

Offline Bookman Old Style

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2484 on: May 13, 2020, 12:37:10 PM »
Bruce, my kids are fans of Expedition Unknown.  We watched the episode, which led me to finding Darren's podcast.  I've listened to half a dozen or so, so far, including your two long episodes (I feel like I already know you!) and the one with Mark Metzler.  I've done a little reading, and have got a lot ahead of me!

I absolutely agree that a large writing sample is helpful when trying to identify someone by idiolect.  Having just a handful of phrases from Cooper, reported second-hand, makes it extremely difficult.  It's still worth looking at, though.  One of my favorite stories told by the editor of the Dictionary of American Regional English is of a kidnapper whose ransom note demanded $10,000 be put "in a trash can on the devil's strip....a term used only in a tiny section of Ohio to refer to the strip of grass between the sidewalk and the street. As it happened, one of the suspects on the police list was a man from Akron. After being confronted with the evidence, linguistic and otherwise, the man ultimately confessed."

Robert, your speculation about Cooper possibly using the phrase as a "throwaway" highlights an important point.  Tone and context are so important in language use.  If Cooper said it, was he being matter-of-fact, or reassuring, or pedantic, or sarcastic?  We'll probably never know.

Fcastle, your point about formal writing versus TV, movies, comics is well taken.  Pop culture is just much harder to search.  The closest I get in my six examples are the Car Life article and the John Reese story.  The first is a hobbyist magazine for car enthusiasts, written in a breezy, casual style.  The second is a pulp mystery story about gangsters and guns.  I'll keep my eyes open for other uses.
 

Offline EU

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2485 on: May 13, 2020, 01:39:11 PM »
I'm not at all certain that the phrase "negotiable American currency" was actually used by DBC. Rather, it is entirely possible he used the phrase "circulated American currency." In other words, bills that are not brand new.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2486 on: May 13, 2020, 02:18:03 PM »
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I'm not at all certain that the phrase "negotiable American currency" was actually used by DBC. Rather, it is entirely possible he used the phrase "circulated American currency." In other words, bills that are not brand new.

I basically agree. FJ has overworked this issue, just as Carol did. FJ has a foreign candidate so of course he wants Cooper to have said  "negotiable American currency" which Cooper didn't say! The phrase is nowhere in the pilot notes, nowhere in any crew testimony, and the words are Wm Scott's wording in a transmission he made to ground control.  The phrase exists nowhere else and the words are Scott's, not Cooper's.  These words are NOT in any demand list Cooper gave to anyone. Since Scott spoke these words you would have to ask him why he used this phrase! Cpt Scott may have been in authority mode talking authority-speak?  ;) 

This is just another empty rabbit hole created by Cooper sleuths.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2020, 02:27:11 PM by georger »
 

Offline fcastle866

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2487 on: May 13, 2020, 02:43:26 PM »
Here are the crew notes: At 2310 "wants money in negotiable currency"  Whether he said it or not is questionable, as has been said here.  I don't know if 2310 is GMT, I'm guessing it is.
 

Offline Kermit

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2488 on: May 13, 2020, 02:48:52 PM »
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Hi all.  I'm brand new to this forum, and have only spent about a month learning about Cooper, though I'm a veteran of several other rabbit holes, true crime and otherwise.  As my screen name indicates, my expertise is in books.  I'm an academic librarian, long-time bookseller, former English major, and independent researcher.  The contention that the phrase "negotiable American currency" indicates that Cooper was not from the U.S. does not ring true to me.  Not to pick on the fine folks at the Citizen Sleuths website, but their statement is a good example.  They say, "Since no American citizen would use those terms, it suggests that Cooper was not originally from this country."  I did some quick checking in Google Books and the Internet Archive, and came up with three instances of the phrase, and three more of the phrase "negotiable U.S. currency."  All are from U.S. publications, four of the six are clearly American authors, and the uses range in publication date from 1963 to 2002.  I list them below.  I have screen shots of all, if anyone wants context.  For now, I'll just attach the first one with an unidentified author.

Unknown author, Car Life Magazine, 1963, uses “negotiable American currency.”

Philbrooke Paine, born 1910, journalist from New Hampshire, author of Squarely Behind the Beavers, 1963, page 29, uses “negotiable American currency.”

John Reese, born 1910 in Nebraska, western and crime writer, “The World’s Second Oldest Profession,” Mike Shayne Mystery Magazine Annual 1972, page 57, uses “negotiable American currency.”

Veronica Geng, born 1941 in Atlanta, raised in Philadelphia, acclaimed editor and writer for publications such as the New Yorker, New York Times, Love Trouble: New and Collected Work, 1999, page 198, uses “negotiable U.S. currency.”

David McClintick, born 1940, raised in Kansas and Montana, Swordfish : a true story of ambition, savagery, and betrayal, 1993, page 216, uses “negotiable U.S. currency.”

The Currency Dealer Newsletter: October 2002, page 110, published in California, uses “negotiable U.S. currency.”
Welcome aboard Bookman,
I’m excited to see new eyes on an old subject. I’ve lived in Portland since 1946 and now live in Cooper country more or less. The topic of the Unabomber has been of interest to me for quite a few years.  I actually visited a friend who was imprisoned in Florence. There are two prisons in Florence and my friend was in the minimum Security prison. Wow, the Maximum one where Ted is incarcerated is Scarily protected. Has anyone ever escaped from there ?
 

Offline georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2489 on: May 13, 2020, 02:56:20 PM »
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Thank you both for the warm welcome.  Georger, I wasn't familiar with Fitzgerald's work, although I certainly remember that the Unabomber manifesto was the subject of intense analysis.  In fact, I had a highly plausible candidate at the time, based on the manifesto, before Kaczynski was apprehended.  Needless to say, I am not an expert forensic linguist, and I was wrong.  I have read Don Foster's "Author Unknown."  I enjoyed it, though I think he actually has a bit of a tin ear, especially when it comes to Shakespeare, his specialty.  I'm fascinated by idiolect, but have a high bar for being convinced of conclusions.  Language is a slippery thing.

All that said...I understand that Cooper himself may not have said "negotiable American currency."   I am too green, by far, in all things Cooper, to trace when it was attributed to him.  Someone said it, though, and the question of whether it's common, or proper, American usage is an easier question.  Which brings me to Robert99's questions.  In brief, I searched the entire corpus of Google Books and the Internet Archive for the two phrases- "negotiable American currency" and "negotiable U.S. currency."  There were not many hits, a few dozen in Google, and a lot fewer in the Internet Archive.  There were many, many more hits for the phrase "negotiable currency."  Too many to be useful.  I skipped over the hits related to DB Cooper books.  Of the remainder, I looked for quotes from a variety of types of writing- fiction, non-fiction, pre-1971 and post-1971, etc.  I did enough quick research on authors to determine whether they were native speakers of English, raised in the US.  My search was not exhaustive, or scientific.  But in this case, I don't think it has to be.

My conclusion is that the phrases "negotiable American currency," and "negotiable U.S. currency" are not common, but are not super-rare, nor are they incorrect.  A couple of the uses I found seem to be intended as mildly humorous- the writer deliberately using a "fancy" phrase, rather than saying something like "cold hard cash."  Several of the uses are just literal and descriptive.  The final example, from The Currency Dealer Newsletter, likely has a more technical financial meaning.  The most straightforward definition I could find for negotiable instruments is the following from an online business dictionary: "Negotiable instruments are unconditional orders or promise to pay, and include checks, drafts, bearer bonds, some certificates of deposit, promissory notes, and bank notes (currency)."

IF Dan Cooper did use the phrase, it could indicate some background in banking or finance.  On the other hand, he could have simply been being very precise, in the manner of an engineer or scientist.  He could have meant "I don't want gold bars, Mexican pesos or untraceable bearer bonds. Nothing exotic-this isn't a movie.  Just give me regular negotiable American currency."

P.S.  As for the phrase "let's get this show on the road," this seems to be primarily an American saying, and very common, to the point of being a cliche, especially in the 1960s.

Let's do a 'Fitzgerald' - . Did "let's get this show on the road" begin in the midwest (Chicago - in reference to the circus) in the early 20th century. I asked an etymologist and that is what he thought but we could never go any deeper? By 71 the idiom was almost everywhere. I just dont find any critical phrases or references Cooper used which would nail down an area of origin, operation, or have an occupational link. No foreign phrases that stand out in spite of Flo saying she thought Cooper was Latin ? And, there are no recordings of Cooper on the interphone or behind Tina while she was using the interphone with Cooper talking to her in the background. I would like nothing better than a voice print of DB Cooper - something concrete a lab could work on.  ;)

Fitzgerald and his team had a lucky match: key phrases, spellings, and grammar in the Manifesto matched text in a Chicago newspaper editorial Fitzgerald's team had found, but the writer was untraceable.  Soon after,  as I recall this, Fitzgerald was contacted by Ted's brother whose wife had noticed phrases and grammar in the NYTimes Manifesto that matched writings she had edited for Ted years earlier when she was proof reading Ted's writings for lectures and editorials! Fitzgerald faxed Ted's brother the old Chicago Tribune editorial and Ted's brother reported back that his wife had identified the Chicago editorial as one of Ted's, at a time when Ted was living in Chicago. That cracked the case. And, Ted's brother knew exactly where Ted could be found living at Lincoln Montana. A massive effort to apprehend Ted was launched! 

Then a reporter at a newspaper in Helena Montana surfaced, just before the FBI went to Montana to get Kaczynski! This reporter was a graduate of the Linguistics program at SUI in Iowa City. This reporter had also matched key phrases and grammar in the Manifesto with similar phrases in editorials he had received at Helena from some guy named Ted Kaczynski who was living at Lincoln, MT ... a regular user of the public library at Lincoln, a reader of the Helena newspaper, and a writer of editorials he was mailing to the Helena newspaper from the small library at Lincoln! He had met Kaczynski personally several times, when Ted would take the bus to Helena and spend the day!   ...................  small world!

I will be interested in anything you find of interest in the Cooper case... good luck with your work here.
   

Georger-some comments on Unabomber.  It looks like you and I have a couple things in common, one is interest in the Unabomber.  Note: His name was James Fitzgerald, not Gerald.  Typo I'm guessing on your part.

I've listened to a number of podcasts with Fitzgerald as the guest, and the one big set of text or words he discusses that made a huge difference in catching Unabomber was the use of the phrase "eat your cake and have it too" versus "have your cake and eat it too."  This use pointed to someone educated, and it matched up with a letter Kaczynszi wrote to a magazine once.  Fitzgerald also noted that his manifesto looked like a research paper from the 1940's.

The point on these is that Fitzgerald basically said that it is difficult to use his approach on just a few words, and that the Unabomber's manifesto really made the difference. The same concept is discussed in relation to Zodiac.  The longer the letters, the more info you have to use.  Same goes for breaking the German Enigma codes or codes in general.

We just don't have enough info on what Cooper said to really make a decision either way.  Don't get me wrong, his words help, but they also hurt.  The "negotiable currency" is actually written in the crew notes (Marty's book has those), I believe it is from Tina though, so if Cooper wrote it, and Flo had the note until Cooper took it back, then how did Tina see it?  An early belief was that Cooper was Canadian, simply because of that term "negotiable currency" and that he seemed to have no accent.  So if the "negotiable currency" was not even mentioned, then would we even be having a discussion about Canada?

I was bored and did some research on Flo's family. Her father was from Massachusetts, even though she was from Arkansas, but she may have been used to a bit of a Northeast accent.  Tina was from Philadelphia.  One of my hypotheses is that Cooper could have had an accent, and it was just not picked up by Tina, because it seemed normal to her, or it was just not a heavy accent.

I highly recommend the Unabomber show that came out recently with Paul Bettany and Sam Worthington.  It's educational and entertaining.

Bookman, good approach on "negotiable currency" in books. I did some basic searches and really could not come up with much.  I'd be curious to see not where it is used in books or articles, but in TV or film or comic books.  Books and articles typically use good English.  I'd look for similar situations to hijackings, like bank robberies, and see how those go down.  It makes me think of The Usual Suspects "Give me the keys you f***ng..."

Good points Castle - thanks!   Yes James not Gerald ... sorry.