Author Topic: General Questions About The Case  (Read 244721 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2310 on: December 02, 2019, 02:52:39 PM »
That was speculation. Cooper never made that claim.
 

Offline haggarknew

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2311 on: December 02, 2019, 03:13:49 PM »
Why was the suggestion so quickly shot down?  If that was the case why not stay to the east of Portland? Why not stay close to the mountain range and follow along side it? Not many people below you and there is a highway close if you need to make an emergency landing. I think the bigger issue (at least until the calculations were all done) was whether they could even make it to Reno and where to make a landing if they were not able to make it. How many airports between Portland and Reno had a runway long enough for a 727 to land on? (remember we are talking 1971) I would say none.       
 

Offline haggarknew

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2312 on: December 02, 2019, 03:40:56 PM »
I didn't say anything about landing between Seattle and Portland. I said between Portland and Reno.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2313 on: December 02, 2019, 03:55:08 PM »
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I didn't say anything about landing between Seattle and Portland. I said between Portland and Reno.

And I said "between Seattle and Portland or anywhere else"!
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2314 on: December 02, 2019, 04:38:29 PM »
I'm a little busy at the moment and will address this problem soon. In the mean time I have locked the thread.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2315 on: December 02, 2019, 07:48:35 PM »
The idea of i'm right and you are wrong will never prove anything. I know engineers and pilots that disagree with a western path. One has to wonder why the pilots failed to say they flew a straight line down to Portland after seeing the flight path. Nobody on this board knows what the pilots really did without a one on one interview.

We need to discuss the case minus the bullshit. We can go argue with Blevins all day long. He wants to discuss suspects except his. He fails to answer to the lies recorded on that thread.

We have some new things to look at and those are in motion at this very moment. Leta deal with the problems and let the DZ whine away....

Lets work the problem vs creating them!

Shutter
 
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Offline nickyb233

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2316 on: March 12, 2020, 07:34:52 PM »
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Prospector:

How do you qualify DB Cooper's knowledge of the 727?

I say it was top-secret level, since he knew more about the plane and how to skydive from it than the pilots or anyone in flight ops at Northwest Orient.

Others, though, claim he could have learned everything he needed to know to steal Flight 305/or demonstrated during his skyjacking escapade - by spending fifteen minutes at the employee cafeteria at Boeing Field.

What say you?

To me, Cooper's unique knowledge is perhaps the most important clue in the case - and the most controversial.

Criminal intent is, as I understand it, to be the most difficult part of a criminal case to prove. 

With regards to the 727 issue, we can assume that he intended to hijack an aircraft because he went through the motions of preparing an explosive device, or what appeared to be an explosive device prior to boarding the aircraft.  We can assume also that he intended to hijack a 727 specifically (he confirmed 727 at the ticket desk).  We can assume that it was not a suicide mission (he wanted money most likely to spend and parachutes to escape).  So ----- lets’ assume he knew that it was possible to successfully jump from a 727 given the flight parameters dictated to the flight crew.  By all accounts clandestine knowledge in 1971. 

Now if there is intent in all of that, unless it was some kind of ruse, he had knowledge that a successful jump was possible but did not know how to deploy the aft stairs in-flight.  This suggests that he was a grunt that did the jump when a signal was given, not a jumpmaster or someone with the operational knowledge required to deploy the stairs.  Which, if I have it right, it is a rather simple procedure that requires knowledge, but not an advanced technical skill set.

I would think with the level of knowledge and skill required to plan (intent) and execute the heist, he would have bought a coffee for someone that could inform him the procedure to deploy the aft stairs.


So would I prospector. It doesn’t make sense that he wouldn’t of done his homework on the aspect of how to lower the aft stairs if he didn’t have first hand knowledge but if you look at it from the perspective that he knew exactly how to lower them and cooper was a smart guy so you’d think he would be concerned that demonstrating his knowledge of the aft stairs being able to be lowered in flight couple with knowing how to lower them would be a huge tell. Also if cooper was a grunt who just jumped from the plane and had stairs lowered for him in Vietnam  although there is no evidence of this from a commercial 727 only the SAT modified one with no aft stairs then how would cooper know the flap settings and how you had to fly the plane?
« Last Edit: March 12, 2020, 08:05:34 PM by nickyb233 »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2317 on: March 12, 2020, 08:09:45 PM »
What stairs would be lowered for someone in Vietnam?
 

Offline nickyb233

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2318 on: March 12, 2020, 08:32:28 PM »
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What stairs would be lowered for someone in Vietnam?

People claim that commercial 727’s with aft stairs were used as jump planes in Vietnam.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2319 on: March 12, 2020, 09:03:54 PM »
It doesn't really make sense. the plane they used was a 727 but the stairs were removed for cargo and jumps. they had an arsenal of aircraft for jumping. why use one with the stairs attached?
 
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Offline nickyb233

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2320 on: March 12, 2020, 09:49:22 PM »
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It doesn't really make sense. the plane they used was a 727 but the stairs were removed for cargo and jumps. they had an arsenal of aircraft for jumping. why use one with the stairs attached?

Exactly couldn’t agree more shutt. That’s why I’m miffed at people who try to explain cooper not knowing how to lower aft stairs and asking they be lowered from the cockpit with having experience with a military version of the 727. There is no evidence or reason for said military version of a 727 with stairs attached to exist.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2321 on: March 12, 2020, 09:59:59 PM »
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Prospector:

How do you qualify DB Cooper's knowledge of the 727?

I say it was top-secret level, since he knew more about the plane and how to skydive from it than the pilots or anyone in flight ops at Northwest Orient.

Others, though, claim he could have learned everything he needed to know to steal Flight 305/or demonstrated during his skyjacking escapade - by spending fifteen minutes at the employee cafeteria at Boeing Field.

What say you?

To me, Cooper's unique knowledge is perhaps the most important clue in the case - and the most controversial.

Criminal intent is, as I understand it, to be the most difficult part of a criminal case to prove. 

With regards to the 727 issue, we can assume that he intended to hijack an aircraft because he went through the motions of preparing an explosive device, or what appeared to be an explosive device prior to boarding the aircraft.  We can assume also that he intended to hijack a 727 specifically (he confirmed 727 at the ticket desk).  We can assume that it was not a suicide mission (he wanted money most likely to spend and parachutes to escape).  So ----- lets’ assume he knew that it was possible to successfully jump from a 727 given the flight parameters dictated to the flight crew.  By all accounts clandestine knowledge in 1971. 

Now if there is intent in all of that, unless it was some kind of ruse, he had knowledge that a successful jump was possible but did not know how to deploy the aft stairs in-flight.  This suggests that he was a grunt that did the jump when a signal was given, not a jumpmaster or someone with the operational knowledge required to deploy the stairs.  Which, if I have it right, it is a rather simple procedure that requires knowledge, but not an advanced technical skill set.

I would think with the level of knowledge and skill required to plan (intent) and execute the heist, he would have bought a coffee for someone that could inform him the procedure to deploy the aft stairs.


So would I prospector. It doesn’t make sense that he wouldn’t of done his homework on the aspect of how to lower the aft stairs if he didn’t have first hand knowledge but if you look at it from the perspective that he knew exactly how to lower them and cooper was a smart guy so you’d think he would be concerned that demonstrating his knowledge of the aft stairs being able to be lowered in flight couple with knowing how to lower them would be a huge tell. Also if cooper was a grunt who just jumped from the plane and had stairs lowered for him in Vietnam  although there is no evidence of this from a commercial 727 only the SAT modified one with no aft stairs then how would cooper know the flap settings and how you had to fly the plane?

Cooper jumped at a speed of about 195 Knots (or 225 MPH).  Paratroopers typically make static line jumps at about 140 Knots.  I don't see anything here to suggest that Cooper was particularly knowledgeable about parachuting.
 

Offline georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2322 on: March 12, 2020, 11:33:50 PM »
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It doesn't really make sense. the plane they used was a 727 but the stairs were removed for cargo and jumps. they had an arsenal of aircraft for jumping. why use one with the stairs attached?

Exactly couldn’t agree more shutt. That’s why I’m miffed at people who try to explain cooper not knowing how to lower aft stairs and asking they be lowered from the cockpit with having experience with a military version of the 727. There is no evidence or reason for said military version of a 727 with stairs attached to exist.

well,  you must have different docs than I do - there is no record of Cooper asking anyone to lower the stairs from the cockpit ... to be sure the issue came up, after Cooper remarked to Tina the stairs could be lowered from the cockpit after the plane was airborne, but no record he asked the pilot to do it! Tina may have relayed his comment to the pilot and that may have started an exchange - if it did we dont have the details of that except that the pilot commented about it to Flt Ops. There is no record of the pilot telling Tina 'Tell the hijacker we dont have controls in the cockpit to lower the stairs from here . . . '   

For one thing, Cooper never talked directly to the cockpit during that period of time: 18:21- 18:38. I am referring to both the GG docs, the PI Transcript, and the crew interviews.

Cite your passage where Cooper asks the Pilot to lower the stairs, NickyB.    :rofl:   

Here's the two passages from which all the gobblewobble and blowfarb comes from. *Note that one of these passages is between the Pilot and the Ground Control, not between Cooper and the pilot. Again, keep track of the fact everything for and from Cooper is being mediated by ... Tina Mucklow.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2020, 12:23:22 AM by georger »
 

Offline Prospector

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2323 on: March 13, 2020, 12:49:38 AM »
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Prospector:

How do you qualify DB Cooper's knowledge of the 727?

I say it was top-secret level, since he knew more about the plane and how to skydive from it than the pilots or anyone in flight ops at Northwest Orient.

Others, though, claim he could have learned everything he needed to know to steal Flight 305/or demonstrated during his skyjacking escapade - by spending fifteen minutes at the employee cafeteria at Boeing Field.

What say you?

To me, Cooper's unique knowledge is perhaps the most important clue in the case - and the most controversial.

Criminal intent is, as I understand it, to be the most difficult part of a criminal case to prove. 

With regards to the 727 issue, we can assume that he intended to hijack an aircraft because he went through the motions of preparing an explosive device, or what appeared to be an explosive device prior to boarding the aircraft.  We can assume also that he intended to hijack a 727 specifically (he confirmed 727 at the ticket desk).  We can assume that it was not a suicide mission (he wanted money most likely to spend and parachutes to escape).  So ----- lets’ assume he knew that it was possible to successfully jump from a 727 given the flight parameters dictated to the flight crew.  By all accounts clandestine knowledge in 1971. 

Now if there is intent in all of that, unless it was some kind of ruse, he had knowledge that a successful jump was possible but did not know how to deploy the aft stairs in-flight.  This suggests that he was a grunt that did the jump when a signal was given, not a jumpmaster or someone with the operational knowledge required to deploy the stairs.  Which, if I have it right, it is a rather simple procedure that requires knowledge, but not an advanced technical skill set.

I would think with the level of knowledge and skill required to plan (intent) and execute the heist, he would have bought a coffee for someone that could inform him the procedure to deploy the aft stairs.


So would I prospector. It doesn’t make sense that he wouldn’t of done his homework on the aspect of how to lower the aft stairs if he didn’t have first hand knowledge but if you look at it from the perspective that he knew exactly how to lower them and cooper was a smart guy so you’d think he would be concerned that demonstrating his knowledge of the aft stairs being able to be lowered in flight couple with knowing how to lower them would be a huge tell. Also if cooper was a grunt who just jumped from the plane and had stairs lowered for him in Vietnam  although there is no evidence of this from a commercial 727 only the SAT modified one with no aft stairs then how would cooper know the flap settings and how you had to fly the plane?

Good observation, the hijacker may well have known the exact procedure to deploy the aft stairs, but held back demonstrating that knowledge with the intent to mislead.  If we are to believe anything released to the public about our Folk Hero friend DB (Douche Bag) COOPER we can surmise he is an accomplished master manipulator with obvious psycho/sociopathic characteristics.  A pathological liar, superficially charming, and manipulative, it fits that he would toy with his young victim while he squirmed with delight in his power and control over her and those who would pursue him for his deed.  However, there are those who walk amongst us who may be ‘smart guys’, but pathetically stumble through life demonstrating a near complete lack of technical skills.  You know the type – they can give a dissertation on why Cheerios float on milk, but need someone to help them with the procedure on how to open the box to get them out.  Even a high functioning psychopath who meticulously plans and ultimately executes a daring crime can still be stumped by the unexpected (e.g. how to deploy the aft stairs on a commercial 727).  Research BTK as a well documented parallel to our good friend Mr. COOPER. 
 

Offline nickyb233

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2324 on: March 13, 2020, 03:01:21 AM »
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It doesn't really make sense. the plane they used was a 727 but the stairs were removed for cargo and jumps. they had an arsenal of aircraft for jumping. why use one with the stairs attached?

Exactly couldn’t agree more shutt. That’s why I’m miffed at people who try to explain cooper not knowing how to lower aft stairs and asking they be lowered from the cockpit with having experience with a military version of the 727. There is no evidence or reason for said military version of a 727 with stairs attached to exist.

well,  you must have different docs than I do - there is no record of Cooper asking anyone to lower the stairs from the cockpit ... to be sure the issue came up, after Cooper remarked to Tina the stairs could be lowered from the cockpit after the plane was airborne, but no record he asked the pilot to do it! Tina may have relayed his comment to the pilot and that may have started an exchange - if it did we dont have the details of that except that the pilot commented about it to Flt Ops. There is no record of the pilot telling Tina 'Tell the hijacker we dont have controls in the cockpit to lower the stairs from here . . . '   

For one thing, Cooper never talked directly to the cockpit during that period of time: 18:21- 18:38. I am referring to both the GG docs, the PI Transcript, and the crew interviews.

Cite your passage where Cooper asks the Pilot to lower the stairs, NickyB.    :rofl:   

Here's the two passages from which all the gobblewobble and blowfarb comes from. *Note that one of these passages is between the Pilot and the Ground Control, not between Cooper and the pilot. Again, keep track of the fact everything for and from Cooper is being mediated by ... Tina Mucklow.

Thanks for shedding light on that G, I was just going off what I heard from other people. Nonetheless weather he told Tina they could or asked them to my point remains the same Cooper knew that couldn’t be done and put it out the intent to mislead.