Author Topic: General Questions About The Case  (Read 214586 times)

Offline Kermit

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2250 on: July 11, 2019, 07:40:12 PM »
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What airlines flew from PDX to SEA in 1971? Did they all use 727's?

NWO
Pan Am
United

Eastern? Continental?

I lived in Portland in 1971 and most of my life. My Ex wife worked for Hughes Air West and they flew mostly 727’s back then. I know they flew out of Portland and most of the West. I got married in Reno and flew Hughes Air West.

The question was related to the Portland to Seattle route.  It is unlikely that Hughes Air West, or any other airline, had more than minimal service on that route using 727s.  Economics is the reasons.  The hijacked airliner probably had a capacity of 100+ passengers but only 30+ passengers were on board which is a load factor of 30+ percent and no airliner is going to make a profit with 727s on that segment with that load factor.  And note that this was a busy Thanksgiving travel day.

The Hughes Air West, NWA, and others who flew 727s into or out of Portland probably had destinations such as San Francisco, Los Angeles, Denver, Minneapolis, or other routes that were lengthy enough and had enough passenger traffic to earn a profit.

Robert, you of course are more of an authority on fuel consumption on commercial airlines than myself ! Although I spent 6 years in refueling in Ore Air National Guard, my expertise was in mechanics and I was only mediocre at that. I was only stating that Hughes Air West flew Pdx to Seattle back in the 70’s. Whether they were DC 9 or 727
I have no idea !
 
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Online georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2251 on: July 11, 2019, 11:56:48 PM »
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Back to basics -

Parachute Assoc expert testifies about Cooper's jump.

Part II below next post...
This is fantastic stuff, georger, and thank you. It really eliminates most of the question of whether an experienced jumper could have made the jump wearing loafers and in those conditions, into that terrain. Was particularly surprised when the jumper said they could have survived a jump into water.

Himmelsbach and Tosaw weren't buying -  ;)

Yes, this file caught my eye. I have more just as interesting so will post em as I can read, sort, and organize them. I have found 2 more Ckret posts (2007-08) quoting Rzk, two 302's citing Rzk's lights testimony, and more ... stay tuned.

« Last Edit: July 12, 2019, 12:03:00 AM by georger »
 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2252 on: September 16, 2019, 01:56:30 PM »
Has anyone heard of this movie. a new member having trouble navigating this forum emailed this question...

 "Did the FBI ever investigate the TV show "Ripcord" (1961 - 1964) was there an episode w/ them jumping from a 727?"
 

Offline EU

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2253 on: September 16, 2019, 02:20:34 PM »
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Has anyone heard of this movie. a new member having trouble navigating this forum emailed this question...

 "Did the FBI ever investigate the TV show "Ripcord" (1961 - 1964) was there an episode w/ them jumping from a 727?"

Apparently the show was produced from 1961 to 1963. The inaugural flight of the 727 was February 9, 1963, it entered service February 1, 1964. Therefore, it seems all but certain that the show did not feature anyone jumping from a 727. 
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Online georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2254 on: September 16, 2019, 03:26:41 PM »
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Has anyone heard of this movie. a new member having trouble navigating this forum emailed this question...

 "Did the FBI ever investigate the TV show "Ripcord" (1961 - 1964) was there an episode w/ them jumping from a 727?"

Apparently the show was produced from 1961 to 1963. The inaugural flight of the 727 was February 9, 1963, it entered service February 1, 1964. Therefore, it seems all but certain that the show did not feature anyone jumping from a 727.


Uh,   the 727 was designed and tested with a sizeable HOLE in the back. The hole could be opened and closed. Things can pass through HOLES whether the HOLE is in motion or stationary on the ground. Its one of those mysteries of the Maldum Fornax. 

The same principle works in reverse osmosis! 'Fast' Eddy O. Pasternak of Baltimore researched this in the 1970s. He now is retired from Standard Oil. All holes are not equal! Holes in some materials will pass things one direction but not in the reverse direction.  Its one of those mysteries of the Maldum Fornax.   
« Last Edit: September 16, 2019, 03:38:25 PM by georger »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2255 on: September 16, 2019, 04:24:03 PM »
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Has anyone heard of this movie. a new member having trouble navigating this forum emailed this question...

 "Did the FBI ever investigate the TV show "Ripcord" (1961 - 1964) was there an episode w/ them jumping from a 727?"

Apparently the show was produced from 1961 to 1963. The inaugural flight of the 727 was February 9, 1963, it entered service February 1, 1964. Therefore, it seems all but certain that the show did not feature anyone jumping from a 727.


Uh,   the 727 was designed and tested with a sizeable HOLE in the back. The hole could be opened and closed. Things can pass through HOLES whether the HOLE is in motion or stationary on the ground. Its one of those mysteries of the Maldum Fornax. 

The same principle works in reverse osmosis! 'Fast' Eddy O. Pasternak of Baltimore researched this in the 1970s. He now is retired from Standard Oil. All holes are not equal! Holes in some materials will pass things one direction but not in the reverse direction.  Its one of those mysteries of the Maldum Fornax.

Georger,

You posted several weeks ago that you had "experts" working on the placard problem and that they would expose EU and myself as frauds.  Please hurry up and post their results.  I can't hold my breath much longer waiting for the shoe to drop.
 
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Online georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2256 on: September 16, 2019, 11:26:14 PM »
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Has anyone heard of this movie. a new member having trouble navigating this forum emailed this question...

 "Did the FBI ever investigate the TV show "Ripcord" (1961 - 1964) was there an episode w/ them jumping from a 727?"

Apparently the show was produced from 1961 to 1963. The inaugural flight of the 727 was February 9, 1963, it entered service February 1, 1964. Therefore, it seems all but certain that the show did not feature anyone jumping from a 727.


Uh,   the 727 was designed and tested with a sizeable HOLE in the back. The hole could be opened and closed. Things can pass through HOLES whether the HOLE is in motion or stationary on the ground. Its one of those mysteries of the Maldum Fornax. 

The same principle works in reverse osmosis! 'Fast' Eddy O. Pasternak of Baltimore researched this in the 1970s. He now is retired from Standard Oil. All holes are not equal! Holes in some materials will pass things one direction but not in the reverse direction.  Its one of those mysteries of the Maldum Fornax.

Georger,

You posted several weeks ago that you had "experts" working on the placard problem and that they would expose EU and myself as frauds.  Please hurry up and post their results.  I can't hold my breath much longer waiting for the shoe to drop.

Theek hai is choosane vaale par adhikaar milega.

ठीक है इस चूसने वाले पर अधिकार मिलेगा
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2257 on: September 21, 2019, 09:48:36 PM »
Resolved...
« Last Edit: September 21, 2019, 11:19:56 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline 377

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2258 on: September 24, 2019, 01:55:46 PM »
Thanks for posting the interview with the USPA official Georger. I agree with most but not all of his answers.

My strongest disagreement is with his opinion about a water landing posing no particular problem.  I STRONGLY disagree. It could very easily be fatal even for an experienced jumper. I met a Navy pilot who was also a very experienced skydiver (D license). When he had to eject from his plane over water in daylight, he thought that he'd do just fine. The reality was far different. The canopy collapsed over him in the water and he felt lucky to have survived. Confusion, disorientation and panic set in fast. He had an inflatable life vest and a packaged raft but had a difficult time deploying either. My water jumps were in sunny weather into warm water with plenty of support. Even so, it was very difficult to get out of the harness and away from the entangling mess of my canopy and suspension lines. I needed good light to figure my way out. At night in cold water I am not so sure how things would have turned out.

My second point of disagreement is with the opinion that a ten-second freefall delay would be a good idea. NOPE! First it risks a spin. Second, it risks a terrain strike since the altitude above ground was not known to Cooper.  Both these risks are completely eliminated by pulling right off the stairs. The chance of being spotted by chase planes or anyone else at night are very low. The canopy doesn't fully inflate until you are substantially below and behind the 727. The visible target is small and not illuminated.

The loafer shoes may not be such a big deal as long as they were not lost during the jump. Ankle support was thought to be a big deal in avoiding landing injuries. High top boots provided some but not much real support since there was nothing rigid or semi-rigid in the upper portion of the boot. The US Army developed ankle braces for paratroopers and bought tons of them.  Allegedly sprains were reduced but the rate of fracture injury was relatively unchanged. The site of fractures on those wearing braces was simply moved upwards on the leg just above the top of the brace.  Their use was discontinued and they were sold surplus by the thousands. You can still find brand new ones on eBay for a few bucks.

It was interesting where the interviewee ruled out smoke jumpers unless they were also skydivers. Sheridan Peterson was both. Still, to date, Sheridan is just a highly qualified candidate. Not one piece of evidence puts him on the plane. If he really wants to be definitively ruled out why not obtain and publish the results of the DNA work the FBI did?  Third parties can't get it while he is alive, but he could.

377
« Last Edit: September 24, 2019, 01:57:32 PM by 377 »
 

Online georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2259 on: September 24, 2019, 02:19:04 PM »
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Thanks for posting the interview with the USPA official Georger. I agree with most but not all of his answers.

My strongest disagreement is with his opinion about a water landing posing no particular problem.  I STRONGLY disagree. It could very easily be fatal even for an experienced jumper. I met a Navy pilot who was also a very experienced skydiver (D license). When he had to eject from his plane over water in daylight, he thought that he'd do just fine. The reality was far different. The canopy collapsed over him in the water and he felt lucky to have survived. Confusion, disorientation and panic set in fast. He had an inflatable life vest and a packaged raft but had a difficult time deploying either. My water jumps were in sunny weather into warm water with plenty of support. Even so, it was very difficult to get out of the harness and away from the entangling mess of my canopy and suspension lines. I needed good light to figure my way out. At night in cold water I am not so sure how things would have turned out.

My second point of disagreement is with the opinion that a ten-second freefall delay would be a good idea. NOPE! First it risks a spin. Second, it risks a terrain strike since the altitude above ground was not known to Cooper.  Both these risks are completely eliminated by pulling right off the stairs. The chance of being spotted by chase planes or anyone else at night are very low. The canopy doesn't fully inflate until you are substantially below and behind the 727. The visible target is small and not illuminated.

The loafer shoes may not be such a big deal as long as they were not lost during the jump. Ankle support was thought to be a big deal in avoiding landing injuries. High top boots provided some but not much real support since there was nothing rigid or semi-rigid in the upper portion of the boot. The US Army developed ankle braces for paratroopers and bought tons of them.  Allegedly sprains were reduced but the rate of fracture injury was relatively unchanged. The site of fractures on those wearing braces was simply moved upwards on the leg just above the top of the brace.  Their use was discontinued and they were sold surplus by the thousands. You can still find brand new ones on eBay for a few bucks.

It was interesting where the interviewee ruled out smoke jumpers unless they were also skydivers. Sheridan Peterson was both. Still, to date, Sheridan is just a highly qualified candidate. Not one piece of evidence puts him on the plane. If he really wants to be definitively ruled out why not obtain and publish the results of the DNA work the FBI did?  Third parties can't get it while he is alive, but he could.

377

It appears Sheridan is not anxious to rule himself out of the Cooper case, or he might have taken the steps you lay out - a long time ago. Only he can explain his reasoning.

Presumably someone has SP's genetic profile from earlier testing. What we don't have are the partials the FBI supposedly has, and so far as I know there is no official statement saying SP was ruled out or what precisely ruled him out if that is the case. This uncertainty feeds speculation. Some people feed on uncertainty!     
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2260 on: September 24, 2019, 03:00:02 PM »
Quote
It appears Sheridan is not anxious to rule himself out of the Cooper case, or he might have taken the steps you lay out - a long time ago. Only he can explain his reasoning.

A guy his age could be getting a kick out of the attention.
 

Offline 377

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2261 on: September 24, 2019, 05:03:45 PM »
I and many of my skydiver colleagues were kinda disappointed not to have been interviewed by the FBI in the aftermath of the Cooper skyjacking. Many jumpers made what I now think were false claims about being interviewed as possible suspects. All of us were surprised that Bill Dause (Lodi DZO) wasn't an immediate focus of FBI attention, but as details emerged it was clear that he did not fit the witness descriptions. Last year Bill got raided and searched by numerous federal agencies. “Everything is going nice and smooth,” owner Bill Dause said Wednesday. “And (the agents) walked in the door right after we opened, about 9 o'clock in the morning, guns drawn and yelling and screaming -- just like you see on TV.”

The purpose wasn't clear but I doubt that it had any connection with NORJAK. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

377
« Last Edit: September 24, 2019, 05:04:28 PM by 377 »
 

Offline Darren

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2262 on: September 24, 2019, 05:33:42 PM »
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Thanks for posting the interview with the USPA official Georger. I agree with most but not all of his answers.

My strongest disagreement is with his opinion about a water landing posing no particular problem.  I STRONGLY disagree. It could very easily be fatal even for an experienced jumper.

Matt L'Hommedieu (SEAL, USAF PJ, and Smokejumper) told me that if he was planning on doing it, he would want to land in the water. Specifically the Columbia River.
The Cooper Vortex - A Podcast about DB Cooper - Available on most podcast apps
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Offline Robert99

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2263 on: September 24, 2019, 05:52:26 PM »
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Thanks for posting the interview with the USPA official Georger. I agree with most but not all of his answers.

My strongest disagreement is with his opinion about a water landing posing no particular problem.  I STRONGLY disagree. It could very easily be fatal even for an experienced jumper.

Matt L'Hommedieu (SEAL, USAF PJ, and Smokejumper) told me that if he was planning on doing it, he would want to land in the water. Specifically the Columbia River.

Matt would presumably want to be wearing an insulated water survival suit when he did that.  Even in the middle of the summer, the Columbia is basically just recently melted ice.  And that is especially so in the Portland area.  Based on my personal childhood experience, the water was extremely uncomfortable even 200 miles upstream from Tina Bar.
 

Offline andrade1812

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2264 on: September 24, 2019, 06:01:50 PM »
For what it's worth, my father says he preferred water landings as well. The landings are a lot softer, you're not getting injured, and even he (a New Mexico native) was able to swim while wearing gear. Caveat being my father was an elite military athlete and trained for months for his water jumps.
 
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