Author Topic: General Questions About The Case  (Read 200154 times)

Offline georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2115 on: March 03, 2019, 12:30:24 AM »
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Not exactly Bruce, although I appreciate the effort. I apologize for the confusion. I will try to briefly explain. My name is actually Dana and I have lived in northwest Ohio my entire life. I became friends with a man named Hager. His name sounded like Haggar and I would fondly call him Haggar the Horrible after the comic strip. I met him sometime in the very early 2000's and quickly became very good friends. We had much in common such as a liking for sports, interest in native American history, construction type work, hunting, and nature conservation as well as other things.                           At the time of meeting Haggar I had absolutely no knowledge of D.B.Cooper or the hijacking case.(I would have been 9 years old at the time it happened) It soon became apparent that Haggar knew an abundance of information pertaining to the case. Early on in our friendship I helped Haggar do some work on his house(in Ohio). I guess he felt he owed me something in return(although I knew he was short on cash and told him ahead of time that I didn't expect payment for the work involved). After completing the work Hag apologized for not having cash to pay me. He stated that although he couldn't pay me with money he could tell me who D.B.Cooper was. I had to go home and do some research on it just to know what he was talking about. It didn't take long to get pulled into the vortex.                            After asking Hag how he knew so much about the case I found out that he had lived in that area of the country from around 1960 until around 1990. At least for part of that time he lived in the southern part of the state of Washington. Between his work and hunting and such he was extremely knowledgeable of the lay of the land.                         Haggar told me he had originally met the man (he identified as D.B.Cooper) through his work.(Hag thought it might have been around 1968 or so)  Eventually they somewhat became friendly and hung out at the bars and such along with other friends.      Haggar said this man's name (aka D.B.Cooper) was Chuck Dooley. At least that is how it's pronounced. Hag wasn't sure how the name was spelled.   Obviously there is tons more to the hijacking story as far as who all was involved and the extent of their involvement, as well as Hag's role in all this.  I really wish Hager was still around to help me tell his story unfortunately Hag passed away in March of 2007. Before he passed I asked why he had told me the story(he had previously told me that I was the only person he had ever shared it with). He stated that Chuck had gotten away with it for long enough and that he(Hag) didn't want the story to die with him. To be honest there was a 7 year stretch of time when I really thought I wouldn't ever tell anyone the story. Hag passed very suddenly and it took me a long time to get over it but after hearing about the tie and Tom Kay getting ready to do testing on it I realized I needed to get Chuck Dooley's name out there before somebody stole Hag's thunder.            I am pretty sure there are people out there that are upset with me due to my past indiscretions on this forum (I was an idiot, I'll fully admit it). That being said you have to give me some credence as I did say that D.B. was an engineer type even before Tom Kaye released the findings from the second round of tests on the tie.                             Anyway I hope this explains a little bit of who I am and who Hag was and also how I got involved in all of this. If you have questions about any of this or if I haven't fully answered previous questions or if you would like to hear more of the story of the hijacking according to what Hag shared with me please feel free to ask. As far as that goes if you prefer that I just shut up and not post anything I would understand that as well.  I apologize for being so long winded.

Good grief!  Well welcome to the forum - Dana. That is one helluva a story and I dont doubt for a minute its true. So... maybe HAGGAR DID KNOW something!  Thank you for this explanation. Chuck Dooley. He should be added to the list and checked out. Have we heard that name before somehow?

In any event Dana, I appreciate your coming forth with this. Im glad I asked!  Let's find out what Hagger thought he knew.  :chr2:   
« Last Edit: March 03, 2019, 12:31:50 AM by georger »
 
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Offline georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2116 on: March 03, 2019, 01:00:52 AM »
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Has the profile of Cooper changed over time?    How does law enforcement's early profile of Cooper compare with a present day profile?   

The short answer is, "Yes." The profile of DB Cooper has changed over time. That said, there are fractions within the FBI that see DB Cooper in different ways, so their "profiles" are not in agreement. In fact, I don't know of any definitive "profile" that has been developed. But we have the following:

1. Early on, Himmelsbach acknowledged that Cooper had guts and had the upper-hand for using a bomb. He saw Coop as a smart guy, but still called him a sleazy, rotten crook, although he has never described WHY he saw Cooper in those ways.

2. Some commentators, such as Walter Cronkite, described DB Cooper as a "master criminal."

3. Many FBI agents thought DBC was a professional skydiver and felt he would be found in the annals of the US Parachutist Association. Earl Cossey dispelled them of that notion, and that might have been the starting point of the drift towards viewing DB Cooper as a bumbling fool who was just smart enough to get himself killed.

4. That was the prevailing view of Larry Carr in the 2008-2010 era. The jump was too tough, he posed, and DBC died. Cossey added all the necessary plausible technical aspects to support that narrative.

5. However, when Cossey's reputation started going down the toilet in 2011 when GG's SKYJACK came out and our follow-up investigation of Norman Hayden and the parachutes, the FBI backed away from the tumbling, bumbling frostbitten fool who cratered. Curtis Eng certainly never gave his perspective on who DB Cooper might be, and held his tongue until 2016 when he wrapped up the case with Frank Montoya, Jr., who is now a talking head for MSNBC, btw...

6. That said, LD Cooper was described as the "most promising suspect" in 2011 when Marla walked through the door with an FBI imprimatur stamped on her Uncle LD dossier. However, the term "most promising suspect" was uttered by Ayn Dietrich-Williams. That suggests that LD looked pretty good for DBC in internal discussion up on 3rd Ave in Seattle, but that moniker never got pushed publicly once Ayn spilled the beans to journalist Alex Hannaford in June, 2011. Simply, no one has ever said WHY LD Cooper was so promising. Hence, many of us figured something else was in the works beyond LD's capacities to steal an airplane.

Well, what you are describing falls more in the category of opinions and opinion swapping (or opinion shifting with every change in social currents and circumstances) as opposed to real profiling, which is in fact a fairly rigorous process as it has come to evolve to the present day.

The archetype for 'profiling; is what what Fitzgerald and his colleagues did in the Unabomber case. Modern profiling starts with building a body of facts and then trying to connect them. I already mentioned the historical roots starting with Carl Seashore. One of the next people in the chain of people and theory which lead to modern profiling would be Dr. Leonard Bloomfield (a linguist, psychologist, sociologist) who created something he could teach called 'Componential Analysis". Fitzgerald and his helpers used 'comp analysis', literally. See You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

When you can perform 'comp analysis' with actual case data then you can claim you are profiling.

The theory behind comp analysis is that people carry social and linguistic markers which are fairly stable throughout life. If you recall I objected to Carr saying that Cooper had no accent. Those words of course are not what Carr was trying to say, or meant. Carr didnt have the technical language to explain what he meant. Carr's (and Tina's) reference was to phonology. And as Leonard Bloomfield taught, phonology is very specific to individual people and small classes of people on this earth! If there was a recording of DB Cooper we should be able to nail Cooper's phonology down to a section of the world, and then a smaller area within that! That is what 'comp analysis" is all about and what it does. That is what profiling does!    Himm's opinions are not profiling. Profiling is an actual analytical process. It is what Fitzgerald became competent at doing (with the help of academically trained people) and what he did in his attempt to identify the Unabomber. If we had enough data the same thing could be done for DB Cooper ... or the new suspect named 'Chuck Dooley' ? 
« Last Edit: March 03, 2019, 01:08:29 AM by georger »
 
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Offline haggarknew

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2117 on: March 03, 2019, 01:02:36 AM »
Thank you Georger, I appreciate it. To my knowledge I am the only one who has ever mentioned the name Chuck Dooley as a D.
B.Cooper suspect.
 

Offline georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2118 on: March 03, 2019, 01:03:41 AM »
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Thank you Georger, I appreciate it. To my knowledge I am the only one who has ever mentioned the name Chuck Dooley as a D.
B.Cooper suspect.

You are very welcome Dana. Dana Im glad I asked and kind of pressed this. Thanks!!  ;)
« Last Edit: March 03, 2019, 01:07:04 AM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2119 on: March 03, 2019, 01:19:56 AM »
So, tell us MORE, Dana.

Is Chuck Dooley still alive? Where might he be? How can we research him?
 

Offline haggarknew

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2120 on: March 03, 2019, 02:02:11 AM »
I am not sure if he is still alive today. I do believe he was still alive when Hag passed.(early 2007) I believe this to be true because Hag warned me to be careful and cautious as it pertained to Dooley. He said he was a very dangerous person. Hag thought Dooley attended the University of Minnesota during the mid 1950s. For what it's worth Hag also thought that at one time Dooley (while at the university) had a roomate that was a 7 footer who played on the university's basketball team. When I asked Hag how that would help  find Dooley he stated "well how many goddamn 7 footers played basketball at the University of Minnesota during the 1950s". Hag also did say that him and Dooley were on a pool league team that won a major tournament. I think he called it a city wide all league pool tournament. It was held in Portland,Oregon. They had their pictures in one of the local newspapers. Hag made it sound like it was a pretty big deal. Maybe there is a record or copy of that picture somewhere in that newspaper's archives. Not sure if this info will help or not Bruce.
 

Offline fcastle866

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2121 on: March 03, 2019, 12:41:27 PM »
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Has the profile of Cooper changed over time?    How does law enforcement's early profile of Cooper compare with a present day profile?   

The short answer is, "Yes." The profile of DB Cooper has changed over time. That said, there are fractions within the FBI that see DB Cooper in different ways, so their "profiles" are not in agreement. In fact, I don't know of any definitive "profile" that has been developed. But we have the following:

1. Early on, Himmelsbach acknowledged that Cooper had guts and had the upper-hand for using a bomb. He saw Coop as a smart guy, but still called him a sleazy, rotten crook, although he has never described WHY he saw Cooper in those ways.

2. Some commentators, such as Walter Cronkite, described DB Cooper as a "master criminal."

3. Many FBI agents thought DBC was a professional skydiver and felt he would be found in the annals of the US Parachutist Association. Earl Cossey dispelled them of that notion, and that might have been the starting point of the drift towards viewing DB Cooper as a bumbling fool who was just smart enough to get himself killed.

4. That was the prevailing view of Larry Carr in the 2008-2010 era. The jump was too tough, he posed, and DBC died. Cossey added all the necessary plausible technical aspects to support that narrative.

5. However, when Cossey's reputation started going down the toilet in 2011 when GG's SKYJACK came out and our follow-up investigation of Norman Hayden and the parachutes, the FBI backed away from the tumbling, bumbling frostbitten fool who cratered. Curtis Eng certainly never gave his perspective on who DB Cooper might be, and held his tongue until 2016 when he wrapped up the case with Frank Montoya, Jr., who is now a talking head for MSNBC, btw...

6. That said, LD Cooper was described as the "most promising suspect" in 2011 when Marla walked through the door with an FBI imprimatur stamped on her Uncle LD dossier. However, the term "most promising suspect" was uttered by Ayn Dietrich-Williams. That suggests that LD looked pretty good for DBC in internal discussion up on 3rd Ave in Seattle, but that moniker never got pushed publicly once Ayn spilled the beans to journalist Alex Hannaford in June, 2011. Simply, no one has ever said WHY LD Cooper was so promising. Hence, many of us figured something else was in the works beyond LD's capacities to steal an airplane.

Well, what you are describing falls more in the category of opinions and opinion swapping (or opinion shifting with every change in social currents and circumstances) as opposed to real profiling, which is in fact a fairly rigorous process as it has come to evolve to the present day.

The archetype for 'profiling; is what what Fitzgerald and his colleagues did in the Unabomber case. Modern profiling starts with building a body of facts and then trying to connect them. I already mentioned the historical roots starting with Carl Seashore. One of the next people in the chain of people and theory which lead to modern profiling would be Dr. Leonard Bloomfield (a linguist, psychologist, sociologist) who created something he could teach called 'Componential Analysis". Fitzgerald and his helpers used 'comp analysis', literally. See You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

When you can perform 'comp analysis' with actual case data then you can claim you are profiling.

The theory behind comp analysis is that people carry social and linguistic markers which are fairly stable throughout life. If you recall I objected to Carr saying that Cooper had no accent. Those words of course are not what Carr was trying to say, or meant. Carr didnt have the technical language to explain what he meant. Carr's (and Tina's) reference was to phonology. And as Leonard Bloomfield taught, phonology is very specific to individual people and small classes of people on this earth! If there was a recording of DB Cooper we should be able to nail Cooper's phonology down to a section of the world, and then a smaller area within that! That is what 'comp analysis" is all about and what it does. That is what profiling does!    Himm's opinions are not profiling. Profiling is an actual analytical process. It is what Fitzgerald became competent at doing (with the help of academically trained people) and what he did in his attempt to identify the Unabomber. If we had enough data the same thing could be done for DB Cooper ... or the new suspect named 'Chuck Dooley' ?

Who has no accent or no linguistic markers? Actors, newscasters, people that are trained to not have an accent.  Tina spent over 4 hours with Cooper and what do we have from that? Not much. 

1.  Did the FBI record their interviews with her and just summarize on the 302's, maybe used a stenographer? 

2.  Could she have said more about his speech and mannerisms and it just did not make it into the 302? 

3.  What if Cooper did have linguistic markers? Could he have been from Philadelphia like Tina, and his accent did not seem like an accent? She was living in Minnesota for a bit, could he have had a Minnesoat accent and she did not pick up on it?  Did his use of words not seem odd to her? Think trash can/garbage can, soda/pop/Coke, sub/hoagie/grinder, etc.

4.  Do people tell you that you have an accent, yes they do, but only if you are not from their area, or you moved away and came back to visit and now you have a new accent. 

Tina speaks at about 1:30 in the below clip.  There are other interviews of her out there too.  She has an accent, but I can't place it.  Point being, almost everyone speaks with some sort of accent, but if you're used to them, you don't always pick up on the accent because it is normal everyday speech for you. 

 

Offline Shutter

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2122 on: March 03, 2019, 01:46:00 PM »
everyone has a "accent"..including Cooper. I think it was Tina who said he could be from the midwest....
 
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Offline georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2123 on: March 03, 2019, 02:36:26 PM »
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Has the profile of Cooper changed over time?    How does law enforcement's early profile of Cooper compare with a present day profile?   

The short answer is, "Yes." The profile of DB Cooper has changed over time. That said, there are fractions within the FBI that see DB Cooper in different ways, so their "profiles" are not in agreement. In fact, I don't know of any definitive "profile" that has been developed. But we have the following:

1. Early on, Himmelsbach acknowledged that Cooper had guts and had the upper-hand for using a bomb. He saw Coop as a smart guy, but still called him a sleazy, rotten crook, although he has never described WHY he saw Cooper in those ways.

2. Some commentators, such as Walter Cronkite, described DB Cooper as a "master criminal."

3. Many FBI agents thought DBC was a professional skydiver and felt he would be found in the annals of the US Parachutist Association. Earl Cossey dispelled them of that notion, and that might have been the starting point of the drift towards viewing DB Cooper as a bumbling fool who was just smart enough to get himself killed.

4. That was the prevailing view of Larry Carr in the 2008-2010 era. The jump was too tough, he posed, and DBC died. Cossey added all the necessary plausible technical aspects to support that narrative.

5. However, when Cossey's reputation started going down the toilet in 2011 when GG's SKYJACK came out and our follow-up investigation of Norman Hayden and the parachutes, the FBI backed away from the tumbling, bumbling frostbitten fool who cratered. Curtis Eng certainly never gave his perspective on who DB Cooper might be, and held his tongue until 2016 when he wrapped up the case with Frank Montoya, Jr., who is now a talking head for MSNBC, btw...

6. That said, LD Cooper was described as the "most promising suspect" in 2011 when Marla walked through the door with an FBI imprimatur stamped on her Uncle LD dossier. However, the term "most promising suspect" was uttered by Ayn Dietrich-Williams. That suggests that LD looked pretty good for DBC in internal discussion up on 3rd Ave in Seattle, but that moniker never got pushed publicly once Ayn spilled the beans to journalist Alex Hannaford in June, 2011. Simply, no one has ever said WHY LD Cooper was so promising. Hence, many of us figured something else was in the works beyond LD's capacities to steal an airplane.

Well, what you are describing falls more in the category of opinions and opinion swapping (or opinion shifting with every change in social currents and circumstances) as opposed to real profiling, which is in fact a fairly rigorous process as it has come to evolve to the present day.

The archetype for 'profiling; is what what Fitzgerald and his colleagues did in the Unabomber case. Modern profiling starts with building a body of facts and then trying to connect them. I already mentioned the historical roots starting with Carl Seashore. One of the next people in the chain of people and theory which lead to modern profiling would be Dr. Leonard Bloomfield (a linguist, psychologist, sociologist) who created something he could teach called 'Componential Analysis". Fitzgerald and his helpers used 'comp analysis', literally. See You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

When you can perform 'comp analysis' with actual case data then you can claim you are profiling.

The theory behind comp analysis is that people carry social and linguistic markers which are fairly stable throughout life. If you recall I objected to Carr saying that Cooper had no accent. Those words of course are not what Carr was trying to say, or meant. Carr didnt have the technical language to explain what he meant. Carr's (and Tina's) reference was to phonology. And as Leonard Bloomfield taught, phonology is very specific to individual people and small classes of people on this earth! If there was a recording of DB Cooper we should be able to nail Cooper's phonology down to a section of the world, and then a smaller area within that! That is what 'comp analysis" is all about and what it does. That is what profiling does!    Himm's opinions are not profiling. Profiling is an actual analytical process. It is what Fitzgerald became competent at doing (with the help of academically trained people) and what he did in his attempt to identify the Unabomber. If we had enough data the same thing could be done for DB Cooper ... or the new suspect named 'Chuck Dooley' ?

Who has no accent or no linguistic markers? Actors, newscasters, people that are trained to not have an accent.  Tina spent over 4 hours with Cooper and what do we have from that? Not much. 

1.  Did the FBI record their interviews with her and just summarize on the 302's, maybe used a stenographer? 

2.  Could she have said more about his speech and mannerisms and it just did not make it into the 302? 

3.  What if Cooper did have linguistic markers? Could he have been from Philadelphia like Tina, and his accent did not seem like an accent? She was living in Minnesota for a bit, could he have had a Minnesoat accent and she did not pick up on it?  Did his use of words not seem odd to her? Think trash can/garbage can, soda/pop/Coke, sub/hoagie/grinder, etc.

4.  Do people tell you that you have an accent, yes they do, but only if you are not from their area, or you moved away and came back to visit and now you have a new accent. 

Tina speaks at about 1:30 in the below clip.  There are other interviews of her out there too.  She has an accent, but I can't place it.  Point being, almost everyone speaks with some sort of accent, but if you're used to them, you don't always pick up on the accent because it is normal everyday speech for you. 



So far as I know the crew did not work with a linguist to clarify this matter. They could have - practically every major university had a linguistics/anthro/speech path department with technical staff and a lab at the time. So did all major intelligence services in the government ad military.

The crew would have been hearing Cooper through their own linguistic filters; Tina and Flo in particular. Flo did say she thought Cooper was of Latin descent and I wonder if there was something linguistic she thought she heard? Tina said Midwestern but of course her natural filters are Minnesotan and Philadelphia. So far as Tina is concerned DB's phonology, grammar, and any standard phrases he repeated would fall within Tina's 'Midwestern range' experience, however that is defined. A linguist working with the girls would have tried to define exactly what their standard filters were, or were not (and that would be easy to do). There is nothing to indicate the FBI spent any time investigating these matters, with Tina or Flo.  So, once again we are left to making suppositions without any hard data.       

Imagine having some detailed linguistics data about Cooper AND having Tom's particle list also! That would define time-based search areas. 
« Last Edit: March 03, 2019, 02:54:44 PM by georger »
 
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Offline andrade1812

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2124 on: March 03, 2019, 05:13:26 PM »
Anybody want to search for a Chuck Dooley in the U of M archives?

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The U has every yearbook archived. So far, there is not a Chuck Dooley (or similar name) in the 1953 yearbook... 1956 checked... 1958... 1957... 1955... 1954... There, that was all the years the U had a "notably" tall player.  If Chuck Dooley was at the U, he didn't make it to become a senior, or make the yearbook at any rate.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2019, 05:54:27 PM by andrade1812 »
 

Offline andrade1812

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2125 on: March 03, 2019, 05:27:01 PM »
"Tall" Players at the U of M in the 50's:

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Played 1953-1956, was 6-10

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Played 56-59, was 6-8

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Played 56-59, was 6-8

And FWIW, here are my father's stats from the USAF (Note, it only has two years worth of stats, but he he did have playing time in three seasons)
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Offline georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2126 on: March 03, 2019, 05:51:12 PM »
Very good discussion today! A hi point in Cooper forum posts!  :chr2:
 
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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2127 on: March 03, 2019, 06:27:39 PM »
Don't forget Coop's iconic:

1. "No funny stuff."
2. "Let's get the show on the road."

Nor his simple formality:

1. "Miss, I think you need to look at that note."
 

Offline georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2128 on: March 03, 2019, 11:32:37 PM »
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Don't forget Coop's iconic:

1. "No funny stuff."
2. "Let's get the show on the road."

Nor his simple formality:

1. "Miss, I think you need to look at that note."

Those are in the data pile. Grow the pile!  :chr2:
 

Offline haggarknew

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2129 on: March 04, 2019, 03:25:54 AM »
As per the pile... Wasn't it actually "no funny stuff or I'll do the job" ?  I wanted to add that because that phrase always struck me as odd. It may be nothing but it almost sounds like something out of a movie. Or maybe something an experienced criminal would say?