Author Topic: General Questions About The Case  (Read 631543 times)

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3182
  • Thanked: 467 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2085 on: February 24, 2019, 04:26:32 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
All good questions.

11. Did he ever take off his coat?
12. Did he put on the parachute over his coat? How does that work?
13. When Tina saw him tying a container 'around his waste' was that 'under his coat or over his coat'? How did that work?
. . .
« Last Edit: February 24, 2019, 04:27:54 PM by georger »
 

Offline haggarknew

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 250
  • Thanked: 46 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2086 on: February 26, 2019, 05:42:35 AM »
As per question number 13, I also wonder if he was seen unbuttoning his shirt? Is it possible he secured the money inside his shirt just in case the package came open? If he then rebuttoned his shirt and tucked it back into his pants it would provide a means of containing any bundles of money that might come loose during the jump?        This also might explain why he took off his tie.     Any thoughts on this?
 

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3182
  • Thanked: 467 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2087 on: February 26, 2019, 12:46:39 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
As per question number 13, I also wonder if he was seen unbuttoning his shirt? Is it possible he secured the money inside his shirt just in case the package came open? If he then rebuttoned his shirt and tucked it back into his pants it would provide a means of containing any bundles of money that might come loose during the jump?        This also might explain why he took off his tie.     Any thoughts on this?

or money in his socks, underwear, and elsewhere. A 'roll' of money in addition to packets, bundles, lids, straps, bricks, 'tinas', trays, and shores, nickles, baggies, and thumbs ....
« Last Edit: February 26, 2019, 12:51:12 PM by georger »
 

Offline haggarknew

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 250
  • Thanked: 46 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2088 on: February 26, 2019, 09:25:29 PM »
Couldn't he just tighten his belt?  Also curious as to question number 8 concerning the size of his hands. Could you explain your thoughts behind this line of questioning? Do you think it would give some insight into his life? Did Tina ever comment on what his hands looked like? I think it is a good question.
 

Offline fcastle866

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 282
  • Thanked: 108 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2089 on: February 26, 2019, 10:28:59 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
As per question number 13, I also wonder if he was seen unbuttoning his shirt? Is it possible he secured the money inside his shirt just in case the package came open? If he then rebuttoned his shirt and tucked it back into his pants it would provide a means of containing any bundles of money that might come loose during the jump?        This also might explain why he took off his tie.     Any thoughts on this?

Haggar-interesting thought about putting the money in his shirt.  It might not be so far fetched.  Maybe the bundle he tried to give Tina went into his shirt instead of the pockets of his coat.  It's out of the box thinking, and maybe no crazier than any other theory out there.  It made me think about the money bag and how much it weighed and how much room it had.  Flyjack could probably comment more on the exact weight of a bundle/pack.  Did Cooper try to re-balance the load?  Did he run out of space in the bag?  A few packets probably would not make a difference, but it gets me thinking back to the point of what a 20 pound bag would do to a jumper in free fall.  I'm of the opinion he left the tie as a f**k you to someone. The man, management, the system, whatever.
 

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3182
  • Thanked: 467 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2090 on: February 26, 2019, 11:46:59 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Couldn't he just tighten his belt?  Also curious as to question number 8 concerning the size of his hands. Could you explain your thoughts behind this line of questioning? Do you think it would give some insight into his life? Did Tina ever comment on what his hands looked like? I think it is a good question.

All of the above ... his occupation, lifestyle, . . . also medical and anatomical related.
 

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3182
  • Thanked: 467 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2091 on: February 26, 2019, 11:49:59 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
As per question number 13, I also wonder if he was seen unbuttoning his shirt? Is it possible he secured the money inside his shirt just in case the package came open? If he then rebuttoned his shirt and tucked it back into his pants it would provide a means of containing any bundles of money that might come loose during the jump?        This also might explain why he took off his tie.     Any thoughts on this?

Haggar-interesting thought about putting the money in his shirt.  It might not be so far fetched.  Maybe the bundle he tried to give Tina went into his shirt instead of the pockets of his coat.  It's out of the box thinking, and maybe no crazier than any other theory out there.  It made me think about the money bag and how much it weighed and how much room it had.  Flyjack could probably comment more on the exact weight of a bundle/pack.  Did Cooper try to re-balance the load?  Did he run out of space in the bag?  A few packets probably would not make a difference, but it gets me thinking back to the point of what a 20 pound bag would do to a jumper in free fall.  I'm of the opinion he left the tie as a f**k you to someone. The man, management, the system, whatever.

Tina said he put the bundle offered her back into the bag. Tina never reported him storing money anywhere other than in the containers he was trying out. 

« Last Edit: February 27, 2019, 12:08:51 AM by georger »
 

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3182
  • Thanked: 467 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2092 on: February 27, 2019, 02:49:51 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
As per question number 13, I also wonder if he was seen unbuttoning his shirt? Is it possible he secured the money inside his shirt just in case the package came open? If he then rebuttoned his shirt and tucked it back into his pants it would provide a means of containing any bundles of money that might come loose during the jump?        This also might explain why he took off his tie.     Any thoughts on this?

Haggar-interesting thought about putting the money in his shirt.  It might not be so far fetched.  Maybe the bundle he tried to give Tina went into his shirt instead of the pockets of his coat.  It's out of the box thinking, and maybe no crazier than any other theory out there.  It made me think about the money bag and how much it weighed and how much room it had.  Flyjack could probably comment more on the exact weight of a bundle/pack.  Did Cooper try to re-balance the load?  Did he run out of space in the bag?  A few packets probably would not make a difference, but it gets me thinking back to the point of what a 20 pound bag would do to a jumper in free fall.  I'm of the opinion he left the tie as a f**k you to someone. The man, management, the system, whatever.

Tom Kaye worked on the money story .......... long before Flyjack even surfaced in 2010, left DZ then came back in 2018 to Shutter's forum for some reason, to promote his suspect. Jo Weber still says "Flyjack" is someone who introduced himself to her in 2010 as "Flyjax/Bulljax". Both said they were Canadians.   

The only thing Flyjack has proven is that different people used different terms for the money, at different times. We already knew that from written and other testimony from all kinds of people! SA Carr finally found the bank person who did the actual packaging of the bills for delivery to the FBI (for Cooper). Tom Kaye also researched this and confirmed what Carr was saying. Flyjack surfaces in 2018 saying "Carr was wrong", and by extension "Kaye is wrong", "Georger is a liar", 'the Ingrams were wrong' ... and only Flyjack/Bulljax is correct!  :rofl:

We know that Cooper or somebody failed to get his request for a "KNAPSACK" included in his original demands. Cooper complained about this omission and immediately set about trying to fashion some kind of container to contain the money for his jump. All of the stews gave testimony describing Cooper trying out of different containers until at length Tina advises the cockpit crew that the last she saw was 'he has placed the money bundles back in the original bank bag container, tied rope around the neck of the container, and was tying this rope around his waste. Eric Ulis says from his 'expert' analysis this would have left the bank bag vulnerable to being lost during a jump. So" in addition to Flyjack we now have 'expert' analysis from two experts, Ulis and Flyjack. Or is it "Flyjax" of "Bulljax"  according to another case expert: Jo Weber?

The bank people involved in this matter were very clear in their testimony about how and why the bills given to Cooper were bundled and banded with rubber bands, in the manner that happened. This included a bank security person at SeaFirst who said that 'paper straps with identifying bank logos' were never used in packaging money in extortion cases, for obvious reasons. And that the counts of bills in any bundle were always "random". In other words there were security procedures most banks followed in packaging money in extortion cases - including at SeaFirst. And that bundles of bills were simply banded together using rubber banks - no paper straps of any kind used. Then Larry Carr actually found the bank worker who had actually packaged the money for delivery to Cooper, and he confirmed that he did exactly what the SeaFirst security officer had said was done. Tom Kaye did his own research confirming all of this - see Kaye's website.

Flyjack shows up and says everyone is wrong or lying (or both) in this mater, based on his "word analysis" examining various words found in documents of Cooper case testimony!

Take your choice!  :rofl:           
 

 

Offline 377

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1596
  • Thanked: 442 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2093 on: February 27, 2019, 06:03:14 PM »
I buy the rubber bands version.

As to which container Cooper used to carry the money I don't know for sure.

I DO know, having made a DC 9 jump,  that given the choice, I'd use a reserve container rather than a standard bank bag. So would any experienced jumper. Easier to get multipoint attachment using cut suspension lines. Bank bags (I own a Seafirst canvas bank bag) don't have good attachment points other than compressing the top or a corner and trying to cinch some line onto crumpled canvas. 

377
« Last Edit: February 27, 2019, 06:03:43 PM by 377 »
 

Offline EU

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1759
  • Thanked: 322 times
    • ERIC ULIS: From the History Channel
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2094 on: February 27, 2019, 06:13:23 PM »
1.   Cooper’s ransom measured 11” X 12” X 6.5” which means it occupied a minimum of 858 cubic inches.
2.   Cooper’s ransom was delivered in an open-top, white canvas bank bag. This bag was 14” X 28” because the ransom would not fit into any of the three smaller versions.
3.   The bank bag, when stretched to its maximum volume, measured approximately 8.5” in diameter.
4.   The 14” X 28” bank bag allowed for a maximum volume of approximately 1360 cubic inches.
5.   The ransom, when delivered to Cooper, filled the bank bag to within at least 8” from the top.
6.   The bank bag when filled with the ransom provided for a maximum of 4” of material that could be utilized to cinch and close the top.

Considering the six points above, witness testimony from Tina Mucklow stating she saw Cooper putting packets of cash into one of the reserves, and the fact that the dummy reserve was not onboard the jet when it landed in Reno, it appears obvious to me that he (Cooper) used the dummy reserve to package some of the $2,000 packets so that he could properly secure the top of the bank bag.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline haggarknew

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 250
  • Thanked: 46 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2095 on: February 27, 2019, 06:46:56 PM »
I thought TIna stated that the last time she saw Cooper he was putting the money back into the bank bag? How much time was there between then and when he was thought to have jumped? Would he have had time to switch the money from the bank bag to the reserve? Would the reserve hold all the money? Do you think he used both the bank bag and the reserve as containers to hold the money? Would strapping both to your body be too bulky to make a jump?      Curious as to how the weight and bulk would affect the jump? Wouldn't this be a concern with the possibility of landing in water?       377?   I would also go with the rubber bands.
 

Offline 377

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1596
  • Thanked: 442 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2096 on: February 27, 2019, 07:16:18 PM »
ANY landing at night in deep water would likely be fatal, regardless of what was strapped to you. So much can go wrong, including canopy entanglement, inability to get out of the harness, etc. I met a skydiver who, like me, had done the obligatory water jumps required for certain USPA licenses. He ejected from a Navy aircraft and thought with all his skydiving experience he would do just fine.  NOPE. Damn near drowned and that's with a raft, LPU and other aids attached to him. He got hopelessly tangled up in his canopy and couldn't see or reach his floatation aids.

Asymmetrical external attachments can cause instabilities including spins and tumbles at freefall speeds. Not an issue if you pulled on the stairs.

377

 
 
The following users thanked this post: haggarknew

Offline haggarknew

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 250
  • Thanked: 46 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2097 on: February 27, 2019, 07:25:28 PM »
As far as pulling on the stairs, was this a widely known technique at the time of the hijacking?
 

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3182
  • Thanked: 467 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2098 on: February 27, 2019, 11:37:56 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I thought TIna stated that the last time she saw Cooper he was putting the money back into the bank bag? How much time was there between then and when he was thought to have jumped? Would he have had time to switch the money from the bank bag to the reserve? Would the reserve hold all the money? Do you think he used both the bank bag and the reserve as containers to hold the money? Would strapping both to your body be too bulky to make a jump?      Curious as to how the weight and bulk would affect the jump? Wouldn't this be a concern with the possibility of landing in water?       377?   I would also go with the rubber bands.

Read the PI Transcript.
 

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3182
  • Thanked: 467 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2099 on: February 27, 2019, 11:48:49 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
1.   Cooper’s ransom measured 11” X 12” X 6.5” which means it occupied a minimum of 858 cubic inches.
2.   Cooper’s ransom was delivered in an open-top, white canvas bank bag. This bag was 14” X 28” because the ransom would not fit into any of the three smaller versions.
3.   The bank bag, when stretched to its maximum volume, measured approximately 8.5” in diameter.
4.   The 14” X 28” bank bag allowed for a maximum volume of approximately 1360 cubic inches.
5.   The ransom, when delivered to Cooper, filled the bank bag to within at least 8” from the top.
6.   The bank bag when filled with the ransom provided for a maximum of 4” of material that could be utilized to cinch and close the top.

Considering the six points above, witness testimony from Tina Mucklow stating she saw Cooper putting packets of cash into one of the reserves, and the fact that the dummy reserve was not onboard the jet when it landed in Reno, it appears obvious to me that he (Cooper) used the dummy reserve to package some of the $2,000 packets so that he could properly secure the top of the bank bag.

Cooper was last seen tying the bank bag around his waste. That's in the testimony. His next communication is at 8:05. He jumps a short time later. So ... he gets undressed, puts money from the bank bag back into the dummy reserve he had tried and rejected once before, is on the interphone at 8:05, oscillations begin around 8:10, and he jumps. All because its obvious to you that he (Cooper) used it (the dummy reserve) to package (repackage) some of the $2,000 packets (or bundles or straps or lids) so that he could properly secure (to NIST standards) the top of the bank bag.

It is exceedingly IMPORTANT that this be OBVIOUS to people!    It's obvious being obvious was uppermost in Cooper's mind :chr2:

What is obvious is that the TAG team screwed up! They should have tested everything and jumped with a bank bag tied around its neck, tied around waste, ....... so we would know today if it works or not. You could conduct your own test, and somebody will repeat your test, and so on .... for another Cooper Media Moment?
« Last Edit: February 27, 2019, 11:54:49 PM by georger »