Author Topic: General Questions About The Case  (Read 158650 times)

Offline georger

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 350
  • Thanked: 28 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2040 on: November 25, 2018, 11:54:35 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Florida can have rain on one side of the highway and not the other. heavy storms can erupt a mile away while the sunshines a mile away.

We got hit, north of here 30 miles almost nothing ... south of here 14 inches in 5 hours.  Just one of those early snow heavies .... warm humid air from Missouri comes north and 'boom'. The skiers and kids love it!
« Last Edit: November 25, 2018, 11:57:13 PM by georger »
 

Offline Lynn

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 206
  • Thanked: 37 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2041 on: December 06, 2018, 07:25:20 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I tend to agree with Georger. Weather is highly variable, especially in the PNW, and the reports of hellacious weather and fierce winds has to be considered as highly localized and not indicative of the overall weather through the area, and for the hours of the skyjacking.
I should have phrased that better. When did the ground search actually begin and what area did it cover?
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3093
  • Thanked: 127 times
    • The Mountain News
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2042 on: December 07, 2018, 01:37:00 AM »
Ground Search

The initial ground search began on Friday, November 26, 1971 in the early afternoon. Approximately 20-25 Clark Country Sheriff Deputies and local volunteers from the fire department searched along Cedar Creek Road, west of downtown Amboy, WA.

They searched all weekend, but rain and darkness limited the scope of the investigation. It wasn't light enough to search safely until 8:30 am, and it had to wrap up by 4 pm.

Although LZ-A was estimated to be 3-4 miles wide and 5-6 miles long, only about one square mile along Cedar Creek Road was examined before the ground search was terminated four days later by the FBI on Monday, November 29, 1971. At that point the FBI put all their resources into the V-23 aerial search from Seattle to Reno.

In March, 1972 the Feds came back with 200 troopers. SA George Grotz told me about 20 FBI agents accompanied the soldiers into the woods. They searched throughout the Amboy area for two weeks, then stopped due to weather concerns. They returned in early April for another two weeks.

However, there was a selective ground search throughout Amboy in late November - early December 1971, as best as I can determine from residents. Lots of agents conducted a very thorough search of homes, barns, outbuildings and such. I don't know when it concluded, but I suspect it didn't last longer than a week. Himms would know. He wrote about it a little.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2018, 01:43:40 AM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline EU

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 688
  • Thanked: 80 times
    • DB  Cooper: The Definitive Investigation of Sheridan Peterson
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2043 on: December 08, 2018, 01:48:09 PM »
Anybody have any intelligent theories as to why Cooper requested a flap setting of 15 degrees and max speed of 200 mph?

377, any thoughts?

The 727 had detent flap settings of 2, 5, 15, 25, 30 and 40 degrees. The max speed at 15 degrees was 205 kts which translates to 236 mph. On the other hand, at 40 degrees the max speed is 170 kts which translates to 196 mph.

Why didn't Cooper simply require a flap setting at 40 degrees to ensure the max speed of the jet remained under 200 mph? Is it possible that the additional drag of the landing gear and deployed airstairs played into his calculations? In other words, would the jet have a hard time maintaining flight with flaps at 40 and the gear and airstairs deployed?
« Last Edit: December 08, 2018, 02:42:55 PM by EU »
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline georger

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 350
  • Thanked: 28 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2044 on: December 08, 2018, 04:45:12 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Anybody have any intelligent theories as to why Cooper requested a flap setting of 15 degrees and max speed of 200 mph?

377, any thoughts?

The 727 had detent flap settings of 2, 5, 15, 25, 30 and 40 degrees. The max speed at 15 degrees was 205 kts which translates to 236 mph. On the other hand, at 40 degrees the max speed is 170 kts which translates to 196 mph.

Why didn't Cooper simply require a flap setting at 40 degrees to ensure the max speed of the jet remained under 200 mph? Is it possible that the additional drag of the landing gear and deployed airstairs played into his calculations? In other words, would the jet have a hard time maintaining flight with flaps at 40 and the gear and airstairs deployed?

Can you direct us to the passage where he asks for 15 degrees ... ?

I dont believe the flaps were at 15* when he bailed ?  I seem to recall the flaps were at 30 when he jumped but I could be wrong ? 

Snowmman used to make up trick questions about the flap settings at DZ, to see if we were paying attention.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2018, 04:52:28 PM by georger »
 

Offline EU

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 688
  • Thanked: 80 times
    • DB  Cooper: The Definitive Investigation of Sheridan Peterson
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2045 on: December 08, 2018, 05:25:43 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Can you direct us to the passage where he asks for 15 degrees ... ?

I dont believe the flaps were at 15* when he bailed ?  I seem to recall the flaps were at 30 when he jumped but I could be wrong ? 

Snowmman used to make up trick questions about the flap settings at DZ, to see if we were paying attention.

The 15 degree setting is mentioned in a number of places in the FBI files. An example, Section 27, Pages 119-120 discusses this and the 15 degree request.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6615
  • Thanked: 502 times
    • Project 305
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2046 on: December 08, 2018, 06:05:31 PM »
The flaps were set when they were at 7000 feet at the beginning of the flight. they were only at 30 degree's for a short period and switched back to 15 degree's where they stayed the remainder of the flight. if I'm correct, they switched back when they started to climb to 10,000.

40 degree flaps is like dragging a chute behind you. it would burn a massive amount of fuel....massive.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2018, 06:09:36 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline EU

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 688
  • Thanked: 80 times
    • DB  Cooper: The Definitive Investigation of Sheridan Peterson
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2047 on: December 08, 2018, 06:40:23 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The flaps were set when they were at 7000 feet at the beginning of the flight. they were only at 30 degree's for a short period and switched back to 15 degree's where they stayed the remainder of the flight. if I'm correct, they switched back when they started to climb to 10,000.

40 degree flaps is like dragging a chute behind you. it would burn a massive amount of fuel....massive.

It makes sense that the flaps were in their standard take-off setting which is 30 or 40 degrees. After all, the take-off was perfectly normal other than the jet was unpressurized.

At some point thereafter they were dropped to 15 degrees per Cooper's request, not to mention the gear stayed down and the airstairs were lowered.

As I've read through the 727-100 Flight Manual it strikes me as apparent that Cooper was intimately familiar with the jet and its flap settings and limitations. In other words, the 15 degree order wasn't an arbitrary order.

This further convinces me that Cooper knew a lot about the 727. Moreover, that any credible suspect has to explain how he came by this unique knowledge.

One other interesting thing, I noted that the 727 had an emergency flashlight attached near the rear bulkhead door. I'm curious as to whether this flashlight was still on the jet when it arrived in Reno. Cooper, regardless of who he was, would have benefited from the use of a flashlight to help him spot his night landing.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6615
  • Thanked: 502 times
    • Project 305
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2048 on: December 08, 2018, 06:41:55 PM »
TAKEOFF
Precise, smooth rotation will make the runway effectively longer. When taking off with a
crosswind, sufficient ailerons into the wind should be used to maintain a wings level attitude. Care
should be taken not to rotate too early or too rapidly under a crosswind condition. It should be
noted that if a 5° flap take-off is being made, the results will be a longer take-off roll; higher V1,
Vr and V2 speeds; as well as rotation to a higher deck angle for any given gross weight. Hold
rotated attitude during initial stage of climb. Do not raise gear until positive rate of climb is
established. Make minor attitude adjustments to maintain V2 + 10. Do not exceed a 20° deck
angle.
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6615
  • Thanked: 502 times
    • Project 305
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2049 on: December 08, 2018, 06:50:18 PM »
You have to determine the weight of the aircraft for the proper flap settings...length of runway and winds as well.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2018, 06:58:57 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6615
  • Thanked: 502 times
    • Project 305
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2050 on: December 08, 2018, 06:54:56 PM »
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6615
  • Thanked: 502 times
    • Project 305
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2051 on: December 08, 2018, 07:01:31 PM »
Quote
It makes sense that the flaps were in their standard take-off setting which is 30 or 40 degrees. After all, the take-off was perfectly normal other than the jet was unpressurized.

Not standard that I'm aware of?
 

Offline georger

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 350
  • Thanked: 28 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2052 on: December 08, 2018, 11:21:47 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The flaps were set when they were at 7000 feet at the beginning of the flight. they were only at 30 degree's for a short period and switched back to 15 degree's where they stayed the remainder of the flight. if I'm correct, they switched back when they started to climb to 10,000.

40 degree flaps is like dragging a chute behind you. it would burn a massive amount of fuel....massive.

It makes sense that the flaps were in their standard take-off setting which is 30 or 40 degrees. After all, the take-off was perfectly normal other than the jet was unpressurized.

At some point thereafter they were dropped to 15 degrees per Cooper's request, not to mention the gear stayed down and the airstairs were lowered.

As I've read through the 727-100 Flight Manual it strikes me as apparent that Cooper was intimately familiar with the jet and its flap settings and limitations. In other words, the 15 degree order wasn't an arbitrary order.

This further convinces me that Cooper knew a lot about the 727. Moreover, that any credible suspect has to explain how he came by this unique knowledge.

One other interesting thing, I noted that the 727 had an emergency flashlight attached near the rear bulkhead door. I'm curious as to whether this flashlight was still on the jet when it arrived in Reno. Cooper, regardless of who he was, would have benefited from the use of a flashlight to help him spot his night landing.

727 had an emergency flashlight

Never heard this mentioned before. Bruce? Snowmman?

Flap settings:  returned 85 posts at Dropzone posts under that title, here - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
« Last Edit: December 08, 2018, 11:43:06 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6615
  • Thanked: 502 times
    • Project 305
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2053 on: December 08, 2018, 11:50:22 PM »
The rotating beacon is an anti-collision light. it's used on the ground during push backs and taxi's...

you will notice all vehicles on the ground will have flashing beacons...no different than cops or using your flashers when on the side of the road..it draws attention.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2018, 11:57:31 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline georger

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 350
  • Thanked: 28 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2054 on: December 08, 2018, 11:50:39 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The flaps were set when they were at 7000 feet at the beginning of the flight. they were only at 30 degree's for a short period and switched back to 15 degree's where they stayed the remainder of the flight. if I'm correct, they switched back when they started to climb to 10,000.

40 degree flaps is like dragging a chute behind you. it would burn a massive amount of fuel....massive.

It makes sense that the flaps were in their standard take-off setting which is 30 or 40 degrees. After all, the take-off was perfectly normal other than the jet was unpressurized.

At some point thereafter they were dropped to 15 degrees per Cooper's request, not to mention the gear stayed down and the airstairs were lowered.

As I've read through the 727-100 Flight Manual it strikes me as apparent that Cooper was intimately familiar with the jet and its flap settings and limitations. In other words, the 15 degree order wasn't an arbitrary order.

This further convinces me that Cooper knew a lot about the 727. Moreover, that any credible suspect has to explain how he came by this unique knowledge.

One other interesting thing, I noted that the 727 had an emergency flashlight attached near the rear bulkhead door. I'm curious as to whether this flashlight was still on the jet when it arrived in Reno. Cooper, regardless of who he was, would have benefited from the use of a flashlight to help him spot his night landing.

Our best pilot wrote at DZ:


Farflung

Jan 7, 2010, 1:41 AM
Post #15348 of 58140 (62454 views)
     Re: [georger] Fear the Gear [In reply to]    
georger,

You have targeted a Cooper non-sequitur. An aircrew member would not ask for or care if the gear was down. They would know that a request for 160 knots was enough. No need for flap settings or gear operation.

Yet it is documented that Cooper did ask for the gear to be down.

An experienced aviator would not care. Would an experienced jumper? Or has the 'lore' of Cooper's request become part of the skydiving lexicon? Would any skydiver care about the disposition of the gear; to include if it fell off the airframe? My guess (just a guess) is no.

Does this simple request for the gear to be down betray anything else?

Farflung"

If Im reading Far correctly, he is saying this is all BS! Any talk of gear up gear down, flaps to 15, 50, or 724 ... is all supersequious nonsense ... to the cockpit pilots! Experienced pilots in this situation faced with an obnoxious hijacker who was full of wisdom and technical instructions ... would simply grin and say "OK, Roger Pilot. Roger Veronka! He must have the manual back there!" and go about their own business asap. Therefore Farflung asks: "Does this simple request for the gear to be down betray anything else?" One possible answer is: 'Cooper was FOS!' But they complied anyway, grinning?

Maybe members of Bruce Smith's (and FLYJACK's) brand new "Cooper College of Minds" has a better answer, based on knowledge above and beyond anything mere mortals here have! Now doubt they are discussing this point on their newly minted "Cooper College of Minds" website - somewhere out there in the maldum fornax where Earthlings are not allowed to go! ?

 :rofl:
« Last Edit: December 09, 2018, 12:05:16 AM by georger »