Author Topic: General Questions About The Case  (Read 620355 times)

Offline EU

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1980 on: September 10, 2018, 04:57:33 PM »
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If you want to claim that the crew misinterpreted Cooper in the real time transcripts then why not go all the way and assume nothing is true. That way you can make up anything you want.

This is an argument you cannot win.

Parts of the story are contradictory. Therefore, all versions cannot be true. Therefore, you create a circular argument which will lose every time.

Verb vs Adjective.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2018, 04:58:15 PM by EU »
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FLYJACK

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1981 on: September 10, 2018, 05:19:01 PM »
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If you want to claim that the crew misinterpreted Cooper in the real time transcripts then why not go all the way and assume nothing is true. That way you can make up anything you want.

This is an argument you cannot win.

Parts of the story are contradictory. Therefore, all versions cannot be true. Therefore, you create a circular argument which will lose every time.

Verb vs Adjective.

that is your opinion..

The transcripts are far more accurate for the sequence of events. PERIOD
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1982 on: September 10, 2018, 05:33:17 PM »
The crew did not change anything other than telling him it's better with the stairs up...6:44 the radio says that he is insistent with the stairs extended...that's Cooper, not the crew..first he wanted them partially down, and then full..the crew tried to work with him explaining they can't rotate (takeoff) with them extended...he finally agree's to allow them up...then he wants Tina to operate the stairs and they are worried she might get sucked out...even Cooper told her that wouldn't happen but would tie her if she wanted..
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1983 on: September 10, 2018, 05:35:15 PM »
7:22 HE FIINALLY AGREE'S TO ALLOW THEM TO TAKEOFF WITH THEM UP...as they wanted them from get go...no pilot wants something amiss that he hasn't a clue about....
« Last Edit: September 10, 2018, 05:36:24 PM by Shutter »
 

FLYJACK

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1984 on: September 10, 2018, 05:45:45 PM »
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7:22 HE FIINALLY AGREE'S TO ALLOW THEM TO TAKEOFF WITH THEM UP...as they wanted them from get go...no pilot wants something amiss that he hasn't a clue about....

Nope, read those two attachments, Cooper initially wanted the airstairs opened in flight, Later they discussed the airstairs down on take off. That was either to get Tina off the plane or due to change to Reno...

Airstairs down on take off was not his initial demand.

read the attachments in post #3104 and #3105

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Offline Shutter

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1985 on: September 10, 2018, 05:59:36 PM »
I've read it and I've read the other transcripts...they would not say the steps are going to be partially down and then say he's insistent with the stairs extended..it looks like they are saying that but it's just not the case...you are skull fucking this to no end..why would he agree to have the fully up just before takeoff if the crew was trying to get them partially down for takeoff...they were trying partial due to him changing it to fully extended..
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1986 on: September 10, 2018, 06:06:10 PM »
what it sounds like is in Cooper's demands was partially extended..he then wanted them fully extended prior to takeoff and Tina to manipulate the stairs for him at some point..that never happens because she's in the cockpit when he was having trouble getting them down. in between part up or down and Tina involved they were worried about her safety...you don't see anywhere in the transcripts where he obviously allows her not to be in the back while he opens them by himself in flight, so what happened to tying Tina off? at the same time they are also on the company phone saying things we don't hear...you see gaps in the radio transmissions..
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1987 on: September 10, 2018, 06:31:08 PM »
Further down in the same transcripts:

Pilot: we're in a rut. Well he seems to want those back steps down. Well, we've kind of convinced him now that we can't takeoff with them in ground position. But he wants them down when we get airborne, fly with it down and then so he can bail out at any time, I don't know..

Ground: what's he want down.

Pilot: back steps.

Ground: no, you can't do that...

Pilot: were talking to Paul and he says we got a plan how we can get them down..
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1988 on: September 10, 2018, 06:47:06 PM »
Following the comment above they are thinking about bailing out of the plane and ask if they can get Tina to the front..they respond saying no due to Cooper saying "no funny stuff"
« Last Edit: September 10, 2018, 06:47:25 PM by Shutter »
 

FLYJACK

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1989 on: September 10, 2018, 07:07:07 PM »
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Further down in the same transcripts:

Pilot: we're in a rut. Well he seems to want those back steps down. Well, we've kind of convinced him now that we can't takeoff with them in ground position. But he wants them down when we get airborne, fly with it down and then so he can bail out at any time, I don't know..

Ground: what's he want down.

Pilot: back steps.

Ground: no, you can't do that...

Pilot: were talking to Paul and he says we got a plan how we can get them down..


Cooper clearly demanded the airstairs lowered in flight initially.. "aft stairs to be lowered after take off"

LATER,,

The context for airstairs down on take off.. (this context may be debatable)

After the discussion about the stews "trying to get him to let us lower stairs partially for takeoff"

AND

After the discussion about the fuel range and another destination.



My point is that Cooper's initial demand was "airstairs lowered in flight" it isn't clear who or why the later discussion about airstairs lowered on take off was initiated. I believe he discussed lowering before take off either to allow Tina off the plane or because they were discussing the new destination.


The common narrative has been wrong.. His initial demand was NOT take off with airstairs lowered.

.
 

Offline EU

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1990 on: September 10, 2018, 08:56:16 PM »
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Further down in the same transcripts:

Pilot: we're in a rut. Well he seems to want those back steps down. Well, we've kind of convinced him now that we can't takeoff with them in ground position. But he wants them down when we get airborne, fly with it down and then so he can bail out at any time, I don't know..

Ground: what's he want down.

Pilot: back steps.

Ground: no, you can't do that...

Pilot: were talking to Paul and he says we got a plan how we can get them down..


Cooper clearly demanded the airstairs lowered in flight initially.. "aft stairs to be lowered after take off"

LATER,,

The context for airstairs down on take off.. (this context may be debatable)

After the discussion about the stews "trying to get him to let us lower stairs partially for takeoff"

AND

After the discussion about the fuel range and another destination.



My point is that Cooper's initial demand was "airstairs lowered in flight" it isn't clear who or why the later discussion about airstairs lowered on take off was initiated. I believe he discussed lowering before take off either to allow Tina off the plane or because they were discussing the new destination.


The common narrative has been wrong.. His initial demand was NOT take off with airstairs lowered.

.

Again, this is absolutely wrong. You're reading the transcript at a point where the decision has already been made by Cooper to take off with the airstairs up.

Tina's 302 is crystal clear that Cooper initiated the demand for the airstairs to be deployed at all. Furthermore, she also made it crystal clear that all of the stewardesses--including her--would be permitted to deplane once everything was in order. Additionally, that the only reason she had to stay behind was after the pilots informed Cooper, and Cooper agreed, that the airstairs needed to remain up for take-off.

Tina is the person who took the demand directly from Cooper.

By the way, Rataczak's 302 confirms Tina's 302 and sequence of events.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2018, 10:30:30 PM by EU »
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FLYJACK

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1991 on: September 11, 2018, 12:09:13 AM »
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Further down in the same transcripts:

Pilot: we're in a rut. Well he seems to want those back steps down. Well, we've kind of convinced him now that we can't takeoff with them in ground position. But he wants them down when we get airborne, fly with it down and then so he can bail out at any time, I don't know..

Ground: what's he want down.

Pilot: back steps.

Ground: no, you can't do that...

Pilot: were talking to Paul and he says we got a plan how we can get them down..


Cooper clearly demanded the airstairs lowered in flight initially.. "aft stairs to be lowered after take off"

LATER,,

The context for airstairs down on take off.. (this context may be debatable)

After the discussion about the stews "trying to get him to let us lower stairs partially for takeoff"

AND

After the discussion about the fuel range and another destination.



My point is that Cooper's initial demand was "airstairs lowered in flight" it isn't clear who or why the later discussion about airstairs lowered on take off was initiated. I believe he discussed lowering before take off either to allow Tina off the plane or because they were discussing the new destination.


The common narrative has been wrong.. His initial demand was NOT take off with airstairs lowered.

.

Again, this is absolutely wrong. You're reading the transcript at a point where the decision has already been made by Cooper to take off with the airstairs up.

Tina's 302 is crystal clear that Cooper initiated the demand for the airstairs to be deployed at all. Furthermore, she also made it crystal clear that all of the stewardesses--including her--would be permitted to deplane once everything was in order. Additionally, that the only reason she had to stay behind was after the pilots informed Cooper, and Cooper agreed, that the airstairs needed to remain up for take-off.

Tina is the person who took the demand directly from Cooper.

By the way, Rataczak's 302 confirms Tina's 302 and sequence of events.

I don't agree, read the transcript, it is clear..

The witness 302's are less reliable for timing and sequences. They were interviewed together and 302's are agents interpretations of interview notes. The transcript sequence is solid.

 

Offline EU

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1992 on: September 11, 2018, 01:29:49 AM »
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Further down in the same transcripts:

Pilot: we're in a rut. Well he seems to want those back steps down. Well, we've kind of convinced him now that we can't takeoff with them in ground position. But he wants them down when we get airborne, fly with it down and then so he can bail out at any time, I don't know..

Ground: what's he want down.

Pilot: back steps.

Ground: no, you can't do that...

Pilot: were talking to Paul and he says we got a plan how we can get them down..


Cooper clearly demanded the airstairs lowered in flight initially.. "aft stairs to be lowered after take off"

LATER,,

The context for airstairs down on take off.. (this context may be debatable)

After the discussion about the stews "trying to get him to let us lower stairs partially for takeoff"

AND

After the discussion about the fuel range and another destination.



My point is that Cooper's initial demand was "airstairs lowered in flight" it isn't clear who or why the later discussion about airstairs lowered on take off was initiated. I believe he discussed lowering before take off either to allow Tina off the plane or because they were discussing the new destination.


The common narrative has been wrong.. His initial demand was NOT take off with airstairs lowered.

.

Again, this is absolutely wrong. You're reading the transcript at a point where the decision has already been made by Cooper to take off with the airstairs up.

Tina's 302 is crystal clear that Cooper initiated the demand for the airstairs to be deployed at all. Furthermore, she also made it crystal clear that all of the stewardesses--including her--would be permitted to deplane once everything was in order. Additionally, that the only reason she had to stay behind was after the pilots informed Cooper, and Cooper agreed, that the airstairs needed to remain up for take-off.

Tina is the person who took the demand directly from Cooper.

By the way, Rataczak's 302 confirms Tina's 302 and sequence of events.

I don't agree, read the transcript, it is clear..

The witness 302's are less reliable for timing and sequences. They were interviewed together and 302's are agents interpretations of interview notes. The transcript sequence is solid.

The transcript and 302s make perfect sense if you understand what is happening.

Cooper demands the airstairs be down during take-off to the flight crew. Tina reports back to him that they can't do it. Cooper responds "yes they can" but let's do it their way. This was negotiated between Cooper and the flight deck alone.

The pilot reports that the airstairs will be lowered after take-off per Cooper's demands. This makes it into the transcripts and is what you're reading.

About 45 minutes later Cooper discusses having the airstairs partially open on take-off. Minneapolis shoots this down.

Another 20 minutes later, Cooper brings the matter up again and is "insistent" about departing with the airstairs down according to the pilot. This is reported to Minneapolis which says no-can-do. For a second time Cooper eventually relents and says "let's get the show on the road."
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FLYJACK

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1993 on: September 11, 2018, 01:47:36 AM »
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Further down in the same transcripts:

Pilot: we're in a rut. Well he seems to want those back steps down. Well, we've kind of convinced him now that we can't takeoff with them in ground position. But he wants them down when we get airborne, fly with it down and then so he can bail out at any time, I don't know..

Ground: what's he want down.

Pilot: back steps.

Ground: no, you can't do that...

Pilot: were talking to Paul and he says we got a plan how we can get them down..


Cooper clearly demanded the airstairs lowered in flight initially.. "aft stairs to be lowered after take off"

LATER,,

The context for airstairs down on take off.. (this context may be debatable)

After the discussion about the stews "trying to get him to let us lower stairs partially for takeoff"

AND

After the discussion about the fuel range and another destination.



My point is that Cooper's initial demand was "airstairs lowered in flight" it isn't clear who or why the later discussion about airstairs lowered on take off was initiated. I believe he discussed lowering before take off either to allow Tina off the plane or because they were discussing the new destination.


The common narrative has been wrong.. His initial demand was NOT take off with airstairs lowered.

.

Again, this is absolutely wrong. You're reading the transcript at a point where the decision has already been made by Cooper to take off with the airstairs up.

Tina's 302 is crystal clear that Cooper initiated the demand for the airstairs to be deployed at all. Furthermore, she also made it crystal clear that all of the stewardesses--including her--would be permitted to deplane once everything was in order. Additionally, that the only reason she had to stay behind was after the pilots informed Cooper, and Cooper agreed, that the airstairs needed to remain up for take-off.

Tina is the person who took the demand directly from Cooper.

By the way, Rataczak's 302 confirms Tina's 302 and sequence of events.

I don't agree, read the transcript, it is clear..

The witness 302's are less reliable for timing and sequences. They were interviewed together and 302's are agents interpretations of interview notes. The transcript sequence is solid.

The transcript and 302s make perfect sense if you understand what is happening.

Cooper demands the airstairs be down during take-off to the flight crew. Tina reports back to him that they can't do it. Cooper responds "yes they can" but let's do it their way. This was negotiated between Cooper and the flight deck alone.

The pilot reports that the airstairs will be lowered after take-off per Cooper's demands. This makes it into the transcripts and is what you're reading.

About 45 minutes later Cooper discusses having the airstairs partially open on take-off. Minneapolis shoots this down.

Another 20 minutes later, Cooper brings the matter up again and is "insistent" about departing with the airstairs down according to the pilot. This is reported to Minneapolis which says no-can-do. For a second time Cooper eventually relents and says "let's get the show on the road."

Are you reading the transcript.. 302's aren't nearly as reliable = agent's summary of notes, they probably confused the rear door with the rear stairs.


Transcript - aft stairs to be lowered after take off is part of Cooper's initial demands.

305 - We have instructions... wants to Mexico city.. gear down flaps at 15 deg.. after underway all lights turned out in aircraft  cannot land in Us for fuel or other reason no crew member is to go aft os F C curtain

Flight OPs - Even if full tanks U cannot land in Mexico

305 - Aft Psgr loading door will be open and remain in that posn and aft stairs to be lwrd after take off

Flight OPs  - The drag wil be such that U cannot make Mexican border even with aft stairs up

LATER they discuss the aft stairs lowered during take off.
 

Offline EU

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #1994 on: September 11, 2018, 02:15:21 AM »
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Are you reading the transcript.. 302's aren't nearly as reliable = agent's summary of notes, they probably confused the rear door with the rear stairs.


Transcript - aft stairs to be lowered after take off is part of Cooper's initial demands.

305 - We have instructions... wants to Mexico city.. gear down flaps at 15 deg.. after underway all lights turned out in aircraft  cannot land in Us for fuel or other reason no crew member is to go aft os F C curtain

Flight OPs - Even if full tanks U cannot land in Mexico

305 - Aft Psgr loading door will be open and remain in that posn and aft stairs to be lwrd after take off

Flight OPs  - The drag wil be such that U cannot make Mexican border even with aft stairs up

LATER they discuss the aft stairs lowered during take off.

They're talking about the bulkhead pressure door that leads to the airstairs. By keeping it open the cabin remains unpressurized.

I'm pointing out that the initial discussions between Cooper, Tina and the flight deck--which both Tina and Rataczak discuss in their 302s--regarding the airstairs being deployed are not discussed in the transcripts. The transcripts first bring up the subject after Cooper was initially persuaded to take-off with the airstairs up. Later Cooper brings the subject up again and finally relents to the pilot's demands that they take-off with the airstairs in the up position.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK