Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 735793 times)

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3750 on: November 29, 2020, 11:50:17 PM »
Yup. That's it. Crawford is actually where Battleground State Park is.
 

Offline Lynn

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3751 on: November 30, 2020, 03:44:46 PM »
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Thanks, Shutter.

Georger also provided me with some information that he is privy to that puts the pressure bump AFTER the oscillations- perhaps several minutes after.

Bottom line is that the oscillations reported by the crew at around 8:11 ARE NOT the same event as the pressure bump which is assumed to be the time Cooper jump. Thus, one can conclude that Cooper likely jumped some time after 8:12. How long after is uncertain.

Chaucer, regardless of what Georger has told you, the pressure bump took place in connection with the oscillations.  There were probably several small oscillations if Cooper walked down the stairs a couple of steps from their pivot point to throw items such as the briefcase, bomb, etc., out of the aircraft.

But the biggest oscillation of all would occur when Cooper walked down to the bottom of the stairs and jumped.  The pressure bump would then be caused by the stairs slamming shut.  There is no evidence to suggest that the stairs slammed shut more than once.  And Cooper jumping from the bottom of the stairs would cause them to slam shut as plainly shown in the FBI sled tests.

In the You Tube documentary that Shutter has posted above, Rataczak plainly states that when the stairs slammed shut the crew experienced a "pressure bump" (Rataczak's term) in their ears.  There is nothing to suggest that there was a second pressure bump of any kind.  And based on all available evidence, that pressure bump was the result of Cooper jumping.

Georger is just blow smoke and apparently does not have any knowledge or understanding of aerodynamics or flight dynamics.   
Thank you, Robert, for your always clear responses. Nothing really mysterious about the oscillations and it doesn't change the estimate of when the pressure bump happened. One question regarding Victor 23: can we assume, as this is a route suitable for low-level flying, that this section of the PNW has considerable amounts of flat or at least less treacherous terrain? Wouldn't this also increase Cooper's chances of a safe landing, while not guaranteeing it? And wouldn't knowing this is the likely flight path mean that if Cooper were of a survivalist/orienteering ilk, he would only need to get to know that one section (however vast) of the route well, not the entire forested area between points A and B?
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3752 on: November 30, 2020, 11:23:23 PM »
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Thanks, Shutter.

Georger also provided me with some information that he is privy to that puts the pressure bump AFTER the oscillations- perhaps several minutes after.

Bottom line is that the oscillations reported by the crew at around 8:11 ARE NOT the same event as the pressure bump which is assumed to be the time Cooper jump. Thus, one can conclude that Cooper likely jumped some time after 8:12. How long after is uncertain.

Chaucer, regardless of what Georger has told you, the pressure bump took place in connection with the oscillations.  There were probably several small oscillations if Cooper walked down the stairs a couple of steps from their pivot point to throw items such as the briefcase, bomb, etc., out of the aircraft.

But the biggest oscillation of all would occur when Cooper walked down to the bottom of the stairs and jumped.  The pressure bump would then be caused by the stairs slamming shut.  There is no evidence to suggest that the stairs slammed shut more than once.  And Cooper jumping from the bottom of the stairs would cause them to slam shut as plainly shown in the FBI sled tests.

In the You Tube documentary that Shutter has posted above, Rataczak plainly states that when the stairs slammed shut the crew experienced a "pressure bump" (Rataczak's term) in their ears.  There is nothing to suggest that there was a second pressure bump of any kind.  And based on all available evidence, that pressure bump was the result of Cooper jumping.

Georger is just blow smoke and apparently does not have any knowledge or understanding of aerodynamics or flight dynamics.   
Thank you, Robert, for your always clear responses. Nothing really mysterious about the oscillations and it doesn't change the estimate of when the pressure bump happened. One question regarding Victor 23: can we assume, as this is a route suitable for low-level flying, that this section of the PNW has considerable amounts of flat or at least less treacherous terrain? Wouldn't this also increase Cooper's chances of a safe landing, while not guaranteeing it? And wouldn't knowing this is the likely flight path mean that if Cooper were of a survivalist/orienteering ilk, he would only need to get to know that one section (however vast) of the route well, not the entire forested area between points A and B?

So you interviewed Anderson on the oscillations and bump? 
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3753 on: December 01, 2020, 12:06:40 AM »
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Thanks, Shutter.

Georger also provided me with some information that he is privy to that puts the pressure bump AFTER the oscillations- perhaps several minutes after.

Bottom line is that the oscillations reported by the crew at around 8:11 ARE NOT the same event as the pressure bump which is assumed to be the time Cooper jump. Thus, one can conclude that Cooper likely jumped some time after 8:12. How long after is uncertain.

Chaucer, regardless of what Georger has told you, the pressure bump took place in connection with the oscillations.  There were probably several small oscillations if Cooper walked down the stairs a couple of steps from their pivot point to throw items such as the briefcase, bomb, etc., out of the aircraft.

But the biggest oscillation of all would occur when Cooper walked down to the bottom of the stairs and jumped.  The pressure bump would then be caused by the stairs slamming shut.  There is no evidence to suggest that the stairs slammed shut more than once.  And Cooper jumping from the bottom of the stairs would cause them to slam shut as plainly shown in the FBI sled tests.

In the You Tube documentary that Shutter has posted above, Rataczak plainly states that when the stairs slammed shut the crew experienced a "pressure bump" (Rataczak's term) in their ears.  There is nothing to suggest that there was a second pressure bump of any kind.  And based on all available evidence, that pressure bump was the result of Cooper jumping.

Georger is just blow smoke and apparently does not have any knowledge or understanding of aerodynamics or flight dynamics.   
Thank you, Robert, for your always clear responses. Nothing really mysterious about the oscillations and it doesn't change the estimate of when the pressure bump happened. One question regarding Victor 23: can we assume, as this is a route suitable for low-level flying, that this section of the PNW has considerable amounts of flat or at least less treacherous terrain? Wouldn't this also increase Cooper's chances of a safe landing, while not guaranteeing it? And wouldn't knowing this is the likely flight path mean that if Cooper were of a survivalist/orienteering ilk, he would only need to get to know that one section (however vast) of the route well, not the entire forested area between points A and B?

While the elevation of Portland International Airport is only 30 feet above sea level, the terrain between Portland and the Malay Intersection goes up to about 3500 to 4000 feet.  Judging from aviation maps, that area is quite hilly and probably heavily wooded for about the entire distance.

Even if Cooper jumped in that area, he wouldn't be able to pick out a landing spot since his parachute was not steerable and there is a good chance that he would land in a tree.  If he did land in a tree, he would probably abandon the parachute since getting canopies out of trees requires a lot of time and Cooper probably didn't have time to spare.  And that canopy in a tree would be highly visible to anyone flying over that area as Himmelsbach reportedly did the next day or second day.
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3754 on: December 01, 2020, 12:20:00 AM »
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Thanks, Shutter.

Georger also provided me with some information that he is privy to that puts the pressure bump AFTER the oscillations- perhaps several minutes after.

Bottom line is that the oscillations reported by the crew at around 8:11 ARE NOT the same event as the pressure bump which is assumed to be the time Cooper jump. Thus, one can conclude that Cooper likely jumped some time after 8:12. How long after is uncertain.

Chaucer, regardless of what Georger has told you, the pressure bump took place in connection with the oscillations.  There were probably several small oscillations if Cooper walked down the stairs a couple of steps from their pivot point to throw items such as the briefcase, bomb, etc., out of the aircraft.

But the biggest oscillation of all would occur when Cooper walked down to the bottom of the stairs and jumped.  The pressure bump would then be caused by the stairs slamming shut.  There is no evidence to suggest that the stairs slammed shut more than once.  And Cooper jumping from the bottom of the stairs would cause them to slam shut as plainly shown in the FBI sled tests.

In the You Tube documentary that Shutter has posted above, Rataczak plainly states that when the stairs slammed shut the crew experienced a "pressure bump" (Rataczak's term) in their ears.  There is nothing to suggest that there was a second pressure bump of any kind.  And based on all available evidence, that pressure bump was the result of Cooper jumping.

Georger is just blow smoke and apparently does not have any knowledge or understanding of aerodynamics or flight dynamics.   
Thank you, Robert, for your always clear responses. Nothing really mysterious about the oscillations and it doesn't change the estimate of when the pressure bump happened. One question regarding Victor 23: can we assume, as this is a route suitable for low-level flying, that this section of the PNW has considerable amounts of flat or at least less treacherous terrain? Wouldn't this also increase Cooper's chances of a safe landing, while not guaranteeing it? And wouldn't knowing this is the likely flight path mean that if Cooper were of a survivalist/orienteering ilk, he would only need to get to know that one section (however vast) of the route well, not the entire forested area between points A and B?

While the elevation of Portland International Airport is only 30 feet above sea level, the terrain between Portland and the Malay Intersection goes up to about 3500 to 4000 feet.  Judging from aviation maps, that area is quite hilly and probably heavily wooded for about the entire distance.

Even if Cooper jumped in that area, he wouldn't be able to pick out a landing spot since his parachute was not steerable and there is a good chance that he would land in a tree.  If he did land in a tree, he would probably abandon the parachute since getting canopies out of trees requires a lot of time and Cooper probably didn't have time to spare.  And that canopy in a tree would be highly visible to anyone flying over that area as Himmelsbach reportedly did the next day or second day.

Its amazing how non-steerable chutes cause blindness to anyone who puts one on. Isn't that one of Blevins' points ? 
 

Offline Dfs346

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3755 on: December 01, 2020, 05:17:30 AM »
Not sure if this is the right sub-forum, mods please move if appropriate.

Does anyone have a better quality copy of these images taken from the chase plane of the sled test flight on 01.06.1972? (These are from the archived copy of n467us.com and appear to be the only copies in the public domain.)
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3756 on: December 01, 2020, 11:00:58 AM »
I don't think you will find any better copy of what has been shown.
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3757 on: December 01, 2020, 12:18:21 PM »
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Nothing really mysterious about the oscillations and it doesn't change the estimate of when the pressure bump happened.
So, when did the pressure bump happen? In your estimation?
“Completely unhinged”
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3758 on: December 01, 2020, 01:43:17 PM »
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Nothing really mysterious about the oscillations and it doesn't change the estimate of when the pressure bump happened.
So, when did the pressure bump happen? In your estimation?

The pressure bump happened about one second or less after Cooper stepped off the bottom of the stairs and then the stairs slammed up into the fuselage.

If you are looking for an exact time for that pressure bump, then you are out of luck unless the FAA/FBI release more information.  In the meantime, the 8:11 or 8:12 PM PST time estimates is as good as anything that is available.

The point is don't try to add another layer to the onion.  If possible, help peel layers from the already overloaded onion.
 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3759 on: December 01, 2020, 02:04:21 PM »
Quote
If you are looking for an exact time for that pressure bump, then you are out of luck unless the FAA/FBI release more information.  In the meantime, the 8:11 or 8:12 PM PST time estimates is as good as anything that is available.

That doesn't make sense when you look at the available evidence and testimony. Rataczak makes note of where they believe he jumped on transcripts and actual words. if the FBI was aware of a secret or a different location they held back on the transcripts then why would they search in the wrong spot? the totality doesn't agree with the assumption. as for the timing. that would put him several minutes behind of landing on Tbar or in the area of Tbar.

Lets say they marked the spot. now, the FBI is aware and we are not...again, they looked in the wrong spot for no reason?
« Last Edit: December 01, 2020, 02:05:29 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3760 on: December 01, 2020, 02:26:36 PM »
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Quote
If you are looking for an exact time for that pressure bump, then you are out of luck unless the FAA/FBI release more information.  In the meantime, the 8:11 or 8:12 PM PST time estimates is as good as anything that is available.

That doesn't make sense when you look at the available evidence and testimony. Rataczak makes note of where they believe he jumped on transcripts and actual words. if the FBI was aware of a secret or a different location they held back on the transcripts then why would they search in the wrong spot? the totality doesn't agree with the assumption. as for the timing. that would put him several minutes behind of landing on Tbar or in the area of Tbar.

Lets say they marked the spot. now, the FBI is aware and we are not...again, they looked in the wrong spot for no reason?
Exactly. The last report of "oscillations" is at 8:12. Ratacsack later said that when he jumped he could "see the lights of Portland coming up" and that they hadn't crossed the Columbia yet. That would put the jump/pressure bump anywhere between 8:13 and 8:17. There is no evidence that the oscillations ENDED at 8:12.
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3761 on: December 01, 2020, 02:35:58 PM »
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If you are looking for an exact time for that pressure bump, then you are out of luck unless the FAA/FBI release more information.  In the meantime, the 8:11 or 8:12 PM PST time estimates is as good as anything that is available.

That doesn't make sense when you look at the available evidence and testimony. Rataczak makes note of where they believe he jumped on transcripts and actual words. if the FBI was aware of a secret or a different location they held back on the transcripts then why would they search in the wrong spot? the totality doesn't agree with the assumption. as for the timing. that would put him several minutes behind of landing on Tbar or in the area of Tbar.

Lets say they marked the spot. now, the FBI is aware and we are not...again, they looked in the wrong spot for no reason?

The 8:11 PM PST time is in the FBI Notes and is described as being the best available estimate.

Several years ago, I posted information on the flight path, what is now called the Western Flight Path, and it put the airliner over Tina Bar at 8:12 PM.  That agreement surprised me.

Presumably, the FBI had a reason for searching whatever area they searched.  But that doesn't mean they were searching the area where Cooper actually jumped.

If the FBI searched the areas where Cooper jumped and didn't find him, then they need to search the areas where Cooper didn't jump and he will be there.  He definitely jumped somewhere.
 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3762 on: December 01, 2020, 02:37:45 PM »
I think we would need the pilots to figure this out. the recent statement of Rat and Anderson decribe Cooper getting the stairs halfway down and complaining. he can't get them down. this was early in the flight according to the transcripts. the plane levels off at 7,000 and slows to about 155 knots. they  talk about the noise from the bulkhead door being open. then Anderson states a "big bump" occurs.

all the available data needs to be in one spot surrounding the jump location. the times differ between the two transcripts because one is behind in time. then one report the oscillation and pressure bump happens one after the other. like everything else, it's confusing.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3763 on: December 01, 2020, 02:39:45 PM »
Quote
Several years ago, I posted information on the flight path, what is now called the Western Flight Path, and it put the airliner over Tina Bar at 8:12 PM.  That agreement surprised me.

The timing is off due to speed changes from Seattle to Toledo. plus I recall you saying the takeoff time could be wrong when I approached you with the timing issue. I'll have to check my notes.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3764 on: December 01, 2020, 02:44:05 PM »
It's approx 43 Nm's from Malay to the Tbar area. that's around 14 minute alone in flight time. 8:02 as worse case arrival at Maylay and you have a possibility of being over Tbar at 8:16 which could still be plausible..
« Last Edit: December 01, 2020, 02:48:36 PM by Shutter »
 
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