Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 237136 times)

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3435 on: October 18, 2020, 04:26:57 PM »
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And yes, it would place 305 further east of the FBI Flight Path. That is important. Right?
It’s location suggests a V23 flight path. That tracks with all the other evidence.

If this is all about debunking a flight path that someone did using a ruler and a Dixon Ticonderoga #2, then you’re missing point.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2020, 04:27:48 PM by Chaucer »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3436 on: October 18, 2020, 04:34:26 PM »
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And yes, it would place 305 further east of the FBI Flight Path. That is important. Right?
It’s location suggests a V23 flight path. That tracks with all the other evidence.

If this is all about debunking a flight path that someone did using a ruler and a Dixon Ticonderoga #2, then you’re missing point.

Chaucer,

You seem to have missed the point.  As I have posted above, it does not track with the FBI flight path.

You have stated previously that you are a college professor.  What is your subject area?  I'm just asking this in an effort to understand where you are coming from.  Don't be like Georger who prefers to hide in the weeds.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2020, 04:40:31 PM by Robert99 »
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3437 on: October 18, 2020, 07:17:37 PM »
And you continue to conflate the penciled flight path on the yellow map with V23.

And I know you like to post about how your an engineer, a pilot, a skydiver, etc. Great! But that doesn’t mean you’re right about this. Also, I am an adult with no need to participate in dick measuring contests.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3438 on: October 19, 2020, 02:22:58 AM »
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And you continue to conflate the penciled flight path on the yellow map with V23.

And I know you like to post about how your an engineer, a pilot, a skydiver, etc. Great! But that doesn’t mean you’re right about this. Also, I am an adult with no need to participate in dick measuring contests.

Are you serious about being an adult?
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3439 on: October 19, 2020, 03:33:18 AM »
Yes, I’m an adult.

And your wrong. One needs only to go back and read your interactions with Homind to see why.

But like I said, there are still people who think the Earth is flat too.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3440 on: October 19, 2020, 02:00:20 PM »
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Yes, I’m an adult.

And your wrong. One needs only to go back and read your interactions with Homind to see why.

But like I said, there are still people who think the Earth is flat too.

So you think the earth is flat?  What is your basis for that?  Why don't you prepare a peer reviewed technical paper on the subject for one of the AIAA publications?

What interactions with Homind are you referring to?
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3441 on: October 19, 2020, 04:21:27 PM »
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Yes, I’m an adult.

And your wrong. One needs only to go back and read your interactions with Homind to see why.

But like I said, there are still people who think the Earth is flat too.

It is a shame Shutter wont stop R99's personal attacks. Its a stain on this whole forum! A serious problem.

Hominid had a commercial/military/aviation background. He posted some of his work at DZ years ago. He and I and others conducted interviews with Anderson and others personally involved in the original test flight including military personnel involved in the Air Force generation of a flight path for 305. The FBI was simply a recipient of the flight path and dz work done by others. The FBI had no hand whatever in what R99 keeps referring to as the "FBI flight path".

It's interesting that R99 keeps bringing up credentials in his attempt to undermine anyone objecting to his socalled west path. None of the credentialed people who have looked at R99's work on the flight is willing to certify his work - most criticize his work. See prior posts by Hominid and others at DZ regarding R99's socalled west path. Likewise, when it comes to "credentials" EU's credentials in this whole matter dont even register on the scale of credentials!

Likewise, R99's continued personal attacks Shutter allows in this forum actually undermine R99's "credibility" further.

The actual history of the Cooper case and the "flight path" revealed in FOIA documents, shows that by the 1976 SF Conference (or "seminar")  the central unresolved issue was not the flight path but where on the timeline Cooper actually bailed. In other words the exact time of the poorly reported "oscillations and bump". Globe Insurance was pressing hard to get its money back! Scott and others were still insisting Cooper had jumped and landed in Lake Merwin! Flight engineer Anderson wasn't so sure. Globe Insurance was willing to offer a reward for a return of its money! Globe was willing to finance a thorough search of the bottom of Lake Merwin and individuals and several companies offered their services! Contrary to EU's narrow version, Scott continued to recite the Lake Merwin drop zone scenario right up to his last interview. Globe Insurance financed people searching Lake Merwin and the FBI participated! The FOIA documents detail this whole part of the flight path and drop zone history in the Cooper case.

After the San Francisco Conference in 1976 Himmelsbach reported to newspapers that ' we now believe Cooper bailed 12 miles north of Portland'. Globe Insurance backed off its support for searching Lake Merwin and its reward was cancelled. By the time of the Ingram find in 1980 all rewards had been cancelled...

**  Sluggo and others note that at 20:15 a communication with Seattle CNTR advises: "Portland altimeter is 30.03 inches" of Hg. Sluggo and others point out this communication is important because: "it shows that at 20:15.56 305 was very near Portland". This places 305 very near Portland and the Columbia at 20:15 on the timeline, plus or minus one minute, independent of oscillations and bump or anything else?       
 
« Last Edit: October 19, 2020, 06:08:47 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3442 on: October 19, 2020, 07:06:31 PM »
Georger, you are the last person to start screaming unjust issue's. do you realize how many emails and PM's I've got over the years surrounding your behavior and personal attacks? then the list of those who left because of your insults and questioning of there status or education?

Shutter
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3443 on: October 19, 2020, 07:24:16 PM »
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Yes, I’m an adult.

And your wrong. One needs only to go back and read your interactions with Homind to see why.

But like I said, there are still people who think the Earth is flat too.

It is a shame Shutter wont stop R99's personal attacks. Its a stain on this whole forum! A serious problem.

Hominid had a commercial/military/aviation background. He posted some of his work at DZ years ago. He and I and others conducted interviews with Anderson and others personally involved in the original test flight including military personnel involved in the Air Force generation of a flight path for 305. The FBI was simply a recipient of the flight path and dz work done by others. The FBI had no hand whatever in what R99 keeps referring to as the "FBI flight path".

It's interesting that R99 keeps bringing up credentials in his attempt to undermine anyone objecting to his socalled west path. None of the credentialed people who have looked at R99's work on the flight is willing to certify his work - most criticize his work. See prior posts by Hominid and others at DZ regarding R99's socalled west path. Likewise, when it comes to "credentials" EU's credentials in this whole matter dont even register on the scale of credentials!

Likewise, R99's continued personal attacks Shutter allows in this forum actually undermine R99's "credibility" further.

The actual history of the Cooper case and the "flight path" revealed in FOIA documents, shows that by the 1976 SF Conference (or "seminar")  the central unresolved issue was not the flight path but where on the timeline Cooper actually bailed. In other words the exact time of the poorly reported "oscillations and bump". Globe Insurance was pressing hard to get its money back! Scott and others were still insisting Cooper had jumped and landed in Lake Merwin! Flight engineer Anderson wasn't so sure. Globe Insurance was willing to offer a reward for a return of its money! Globe was willing to finance a thorough search of the bottom of Lake Merwin and individuals and several companies offered their services! Contrary to EU's narrow version, Scott continued to recite the Lake Merwin drop zone scenario right up to his last interview. Globe Insurance financed people searching Lake Merwin and the FBI participated! The FOIA documents detail this whole part of the flight path and drop zone history in the Cooper case.

After the San Francisco Conference in 1976 Himmelsbach reported to newspapers that ' we now believe Cooper bailed 12 miles north of Portland'. Globe Insurance backed off its support for searching Lake Merwin and its reward was cancelled. By the time of the Ingram find in 1980 all rewards had been cancelled...

**  Sluggo and others note that at 20:15 a communication with Seattle CNTR advises: "Portland altimeter is 30.03 inches" of Hg. Sluggo and others point out this communication is important because: "it shows that at 20:15.56 305 was very near Portland". This places 305 very near Portland and the Columbia at 20:15 on the timeline, plus or minus one minute, independent of oscillations and bump or anything else?       
 

Georger's post doesn't really merit a response.  Nevertheless, I will point out again that Georger is well known for his personal attacks as can be seen on DZ, this forum, and in personal e-mails to various people including myself.

It is my understanding that the so-called "FBI Flight Path" map was posted on DZ by Carr (perhaps previously to Sluggo) and that he was asking if anyone knew where it came from or who did it.

Who knows what the 1976 FBI conference did other than issue a "John Doe" indictment.  The transcripts of the messages on the ARINC radio hookup and teletype system clearly indicate that the FBI thought the 8:11 PM time for the jump was the best estimate.  This was only days after the 1971 hijacking.

The money find at Tina Bar in February 1980 did not change the estimated time of the jump but did result in questions about the flight path.  Incidentally, that 8:11 PM time for the jump agrees remarkably well with the time that the airliner would be over Tina Bar according to the Western Flight Path.  My estimate is that it would be over Tina Bar no later than 8:12 PM.

The Portland altimeter setting is routinely given to aircraft that can be 30 or more miles away from Portland.  But at about 8:15 PM, if the airliner was on the Western Flight Path it would be about 10 miles southwest of Portland International Airport and a few minutes earlier it would have been slightly closer.

Do the "credentialed" people you refer to have actual names?  Are they willing to stand by their work?  Or do they just wish to shoot from the brush as some posters love to do? 
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3444 on: October 19, 2020, 07:30:09 PM »
Just about everyone has commented so lets not flame the fires and just move on with the topic at hand...
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3445 on: October 19, 2020, 09:32:31 PM »
What’s everyone’s best guess on when Cooper jumped?
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3446 on: October 19, 2020, 09:49:19 PM »
My guess is 8:13 pm, since that is what Rataczak told me.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3447 on: October 19, 2020, 11:56:31 PM »
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What’s everyone’s best guess on when Cooper jumped?

8:13 pm - 8:16 window. Its interesting that 99 never posts any 302s to defend his position. I think he's out of date. Could anyone posting here or anywhere else pass 99's credential requirement - NO! Just 99. In my life Ive found that credentials sometimes have meaning and sometimes not, and sometimes are a curse to getting at working solutions and the truth! Common sense and Basic Research carries weight with me.

I think as time goes on the FBI FOIA releases are going to begin to have a larger impact on all Cooper discussion  as more people begin to read and absorb them. My God! Im 77 years old and here I am having spent months reading and absorbing these files, to put things in order and try to get a better perspective on the Cooper case. I think actual historical knowledge about this case actually matters.

For example: 302s document that after the Ingram find and Tosaw hiring Blake Payne to dredge and recover artifacts from the Columbia near Hayden Island in 1982, it was Portland's Dorwin Schreuder who first saw and examined some of these artifacts. Dorwin was interviewed by local reporters and rendered his judgement as best he could. These artifacts were then passed to Seattle and on to Labs for analysis and further judgment. Socalled parachute cord, a bone, etc. Its an interesting historical fact. And its me, Georger, releasing this information for the first time; not Shutter, EU, Blevins, R99, 377, FJ, Smith, etc . . .  that's the kind of basic research Im talking about. I will post the 302s  as time rolls on. BTW the reason Tosaw had Payne searching around Hayden Island is because at the time Tosaw had been told (by one official) that 305 crossed the Columbia over the tip of Hayden Island - a tip that turned out to be flawed!  ;)

I have always found that "credentials are as credentials DO" ............... whether its digging a ditch or working on the COVID virus. The Cooper case is somewhere in between these extremes and nobody needs anyone else's permission to do it! 

A poll recently taken of retired FBI Agents seems to indicate that the Cooper case may never pass outside the FBI for solution - eg. to the Smithsonian! I was surprised to find out how strongly agents polled feel about this subject. Im not sure what reaction to have ...  :rofl:  It is what it  is!     
« Last Edit: Today at 12:22:40 AM by georger »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3448 on: Today at 12:24:03 AM »
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What’s everyone’s best guess on when Cooper jumped?

8:13 pm - 8:16 window. Its interesting that 99 never posts any 302s to defend his position. I think he's out of date. Could anyone posting here or anywhere else pass 99's credential requirement - NO! Just 99. In my life Ive found that credentials sometimes have meaning and sometimes not, and sometimes are a curse to getting at working solutions and the truth! Common sense carries weight with me.

I think as time goes on the FBI FOIA releases are going to begin to have a larger impact on all Cooper discussion  as more people begin to read and absorb them. My God! Im 77 years old and here I am having spent months reading and absorbing these files, to put things in order and try to get a better perspective on the Cooper case. I think actual historical knowledge about this case actually matters.

For example: 302s document that after the Ingram find and Tosaw hiring Blake Payne to dredge and recover artifacts from the Columbia near Hayden Island in 1982, it was Portland's Dorwin Schreuder who first saw and examined some of these artifacts. Dorwin was interviewed by local reporters and rendered his judgement as best he could. These artifacts were then passed to Seattle and on to Labs for analysis and further judgment. Socalled parachute cord, a bone, etc. Its an interesting historical fact. And its me, Georger, releasing this information for the first time; not Shutter, EU, Blevins, R99, 377, FJ, Smith, etc . . .  I will post the 302s  as time rolls on. BTW the reason Tosaw had Payne searching around Hayden Island is because Tosaw had been told (by one official) that 305 crossed the Columbia over the tip of Hayden Island - a tip that turned out to be flawed!  ;)

I have always found that "credentials are as credentials DO" ............... whether its digging a ditch or working on the COVID virus. The Cooper case is somewhere in between these extremes and nobody needs anyone else's permission to do it!     

So credentials are meaningless?  The problem both here and in our current political nightmare is that we have people who probably don't know what the term "credentials" means, or even how to spell it, trying to claim they know more about a given subject than the people who do know the subject.

FYI, I have had a copy of Tosaw's 1985 book for about the last 10 years or so. 

 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3449 on: Today at 12:35:05 AM »
Are you calling this board illiterate?