Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 229328 times)

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3240 on: August 09, 2020, 04:10:09 PM »
Remember, all I have to do is prove that the FBI Flight Path map is wrong in one spot and that calls into question the integrity of the entire map.

And I'm quite certain that I've proved it in three spots:

1) Upon take-off from Seattle.

2) Approaching Maylay based upon the fiberglass skirt find.

3) North of the DZ when the placard separated from the jet.

Not to mention, the path itself may not even be flyable based upon your flight simulation as the jet apparently made a sharp turn around PDX.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2020, 04:13:31 PM by EU »
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3241 on: August 09, 2020, 04:16:50 PM »
The phone conversation is not documented, only a phone call was made...a reason was given for the "pin-pointing" obviously..

The map is going to have error's. a major one would have to be noted along with the reason the Portland operator's are wrong..pretty simple?
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3242 on: August 09, 2020, 04:24:08 PM »
This is why I would be very interested to know exactly who put the map together and how it was done.

After all, there is a map. It came from someone, somewhere, somehow.
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3243 on: August 09, 2020, 04:25:51 PM »
The skirting has never been confirmed, only a possibility, assumption and not fact..you couldn't locate the part number on the whole thing and yet the piece found had one? not plausible until all the facts are in place.

The turn could be the avoidance to directly flying over PDX as well as to line back up with V23. a timing issue is in the dropzone. most believe it's a timing issue vs a path issue.

Things unconfirmed that are possible...
1) Placard location on 305
2) Definitive proof the skirting was the skirting found and not something else.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3244 on: August 09, 2020, 04:27:12 PM »
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This is why I would be very interested to know exactly who put the map together and how it was done.

After all, there is a map. It came from someone, somewhere, somehow.

I believe a name is given somewhere in regards to the map if not mistaken..perhaps a trip to McChord is something to consider..someone there surely would have some answers..
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3245 on: August 09, 2020, 04:36:04 PM »
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This is why I would be very interested to know exactly who put the map together and how it was done.

After all, there is a map. It came from someone, somewhere, somehow.

I believe a name is given somewhere in regards to the map if not mistaken..perhaps a trip to McChord is something to consider..someone there surely would have some answers..

Perhaps I should give McChord a call tomorrow and see where that leads.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3246 on: August 09, 2020, 04:37:07 PM »
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Remember, all I have to do is prove that the FBI Flight Path map is wrong in one spot and that calls into question the integrity of the entire map.

And I'm quite certain that I've proved it in three spots:

1) Upon take-off from Seattle.

2) Approaching Maylay based upon the fiberglass skirt find.

3) North of the DZ when the placard separated from the jet.

Not to mention, the path itself may not even be flyable based upon your flight simulation as the jet apparently made a sharp turn around PDX.

He said/she said.

You are raining issues that nobody can immediately or easily answer - this can go on forever!

We need to hear from the principal person - Cliff Ammerman. When can you arrange that?  I thought you said there was a film of him?
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3247 on: August 09, 2020, 04:59:12 PM »
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Remember, all I have to do is prove that the FBI Flight Path map is wrong in one spot and that calls into question the integrity of the entire map.

And I'm quite certain that I've proved it in three spots:

1) Upon take-off from Seattle.

2) Approaching Maylay based upon the fiberglass skirt find.

3) North of the DZ when the placard separated from the jet.

Not to mention, the path itself may not even be flyable based upon your flight simulation as the jet apparently made a sharp turn around PDX.

He said/she said.

You are raining issues that nobody can immediately or easily answer - this can go on forever!

We need to hear from the principal person - Cliff Ammerman. When can you arrange that?  I thought you said there was a film of him?

He is in the History Channel special airing this year. Therefore, we have to wait for History Channel to air the show.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3248 on: August 09, 2020, 05:02:36 PM »
Hominid wrote the following....

The data coming from the radar site came in increments of .088° (1 4096th of a full circle) for azimuth and .25nm for range. If the likely errors were more than two times these values, the designers would simply have decreased the resolution of the data. There is no point in transmitting data to a precision of 1 if the data is only accurate to 8, for example. The direction center at McChord could have smoothed the data to get better accuracy.

But the coordinate data used to plot the FBI plot didn't necessarily take full advantage of the accuracy of the data the airforce had available. The data from which the plot was made was rounded to whole minutes of latitude and longitude. So the actual accuracy of the plots is ±.5 minutes of latitude and longitude. This was the source of the incorrect info about the '72 searchzone map to the effect that the accuracy was ±.5 nautical miles (should have been .5nm for N-S, but .347nm for E-W)



The positions were determined by computations, almost certainly by the airforce 84th radar evaluation squadron, using the coordinates and associated time stamps obtained from the Mt. Hebo site, plus the surveyed location of the Mt. Hebo site and the earth model of the time. The 84th had, and still has, a detachment at McChord and doing such analyses was part of their official functions and still is today. The McChord direction center just used the SAGE system in their normal function of tracking practically everything bigger than a piper or cessna. They did not analyze the system or data from it.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2020, 05:06:58 PM by Shutter »
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3249 on: August 09, 2020, 05:13:27 PM »
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Hominid wrote the following....

The data coming from the radar site came in increments of .088° (1 4096th of a full circle) for azimuth and .25nm for range. If the likely errors were more than two times these values, the designers would simply have decreased the resolution of the data. There is no point in transmitting data to a precision of 1 if the data is only accurate to 8, for example. The direction center at McChord could have smoothed the data to get better accuracy.

But the coordinate data used to plot the FBI plot didn't necessarily take full advantage of the accuracy of the data the airforce had available. The data from which the plot was made was rounded to whole minutes of latitude and longitude. So the actual accuracy of the plots is ±.5 minutes of latitude and longitude. This was the source of the incorrect info about the '72 searchzone map to the effect that the accuracy was ±.5 nautical miles (should have been .5nm for N-S, but .347nm for E-W)



The positions were determined by computations, almost certainly by the airforce 84th radar evaluation squadron, using the coordinates and associated time stamps obtained from the Mt. Hebo site, plus the surveyed location of the Mt. Hebo site and the earth model of the time. The 84th had, and still has, a detachment at McChord and doing such analyses was part of their official functions and still is today. The McChord direction center just used the SAGE system in their normal function of tracking practically everything bigger than a piper or cessna. They did not analyze the system or data from it.

been over this a million times .... no point in even trying further.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3250 on: August 09, 2020, 05:56:58 PM »
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Hominid wrote the following....

The data coming from the radar site came in increments of .088° (1 4096th of a full circle) for azimuth and .25nm for range. If the likely errors were more than two times these values, the designers would simply have decreased the resolution of the data. There is no point in transmitting data to a precision of 1 if the data is only accurate to 8, for example. The direction center at McChord could have smoothed the data to get better accuracy.

But the coordinate data used to plot the FBI plot didn't necessarily take full advantage of the accuracy of the data the airforce had available. The data from which the plot was made was rounded to whole minutes of latitude and longitude. So the actual accuracy of the plots is ±.5 minutes of latitude and longitude. This was the source of the incorrect info about the '72 searchzone map to the effect that the accuracy was ±.5 nautical miles (should have been .5nm for N-S, but .347nm for E-W)



The positions were determined by computations, almost certainly by the airforce 84th radar evaluation squadron, using the coordinates and associated time stamps obtained from the Mt. Hebo site, plus the surveyed location of the Mt. Hebo site and the earth model of the time. The 84th had, and still has, a detachment at McChord and doing such analyses was part of their official functions and still is today. The McChord direction center just used the SAGE system in their normal function of tracking practically everything bigger than a piper or cessna. They did not analyze the system or data from it.

Shutter, if Hominid is still around how about getting him to explain where those numbers above came from?

In the 1971 time frame, radar antennas made about 6 revolutions per minute or about one revolution about ever 10 seconds.  That means the radar would paint an aircraft only about ever 10 seconds and the antenna would rotate about 60 degrees in that time frame.

In that 10 seconds, an airliner with a ground speed of about 180 knots, or 3 nautical miles per minute, would travel about one-half of a nautical mile or about 3000 feet.

The numbers presented above by Hominid are nonsense.  Radar used in tracking aircraft has never been that accurate in tracking aircraft or anything to my knowledge.  I believe Ammerman was recently quoted as saying that his radar display was only accurate to within several miles.

The Portland radar was not involved in the actual tracking of the airliner, that was strictly up to the Seattle ATC Controllers.  The operator apparently just happened to see it on his local display and he probably could not be certain that he was looking at 305 in the first place.

The SAGE system was reportedly not on line that night in the first place.  And all raw radar data used by the FAA and the USAF probably came from the same radar at McChord AFB.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3251 on: August 09, 2020, 07:15:02 PM »
When would out National defense system be down. it ran 24/7? the system had issues from the ground to the fighters?

Portland doesn't have to be involved directly with the hijacking..why is this so hard to understand? are all of these documents surrounding the Portland radar operators more plots for a conspiracy, why would they say what they did if they had no idea where 305 was was and how did it end up similar to the map?

Again, you made claims many times over the years about having a bomb and flying over cities, right? why in the world wouldn't the ground want to know where that plane was. especially in there own airspace? that doesn't explain away the statements made by the operators. 

Ammerman explains being on 150 mile range and not very effective, correct? he also claims Portland would be on 40 miles and much more precise, right? how is it they both come to the same conclusions (Portland) while two people that are not operators or "involved in the actual tracking" were right? this is like trying to explain away witnesses seeing a subject run out of a front door and you stating they came out of the back door?

These are tough hurdles to get over in order to change the path IMHO. I'm all for it but everything needs a valid reason to dismiss..
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3252 on: August 09, 2020, 07:45:41 PM »
How many people from PDX commented about the location of the jet on radar?

Also, let me quote precisely from the document you posted above:

"He called back subsequently and said that he had talked to the man who was working the radar at Portland which was very accurate since it was very close to the plane at the time and determined that the plane was actually one to two miles east of the center of this particular fly-way. He said for this reason, we might consider moving the center of the circle described above one or two miles due east."

Here are my questions based upon the quote above:

1) Who determined the plane was actually one to two miles east, after all the first word "He" refers to the guy from the Northwest Flight Dispatch Center, not the radar operator?

2) Am I correct in understanding that the gentleman working the radar in Portland remembered precisely where the jet was at all times while it was on his monitor even though we are talking a path of many miles, four days after the skyjacking, and even though while watching 305 in real time no one had any idea that Cooper had even jumped?

3) How does the radar operator know he was watching 305?

4) What were the radar operator's duties that night? Were they merely to watch 305 and nothing else? No other duties that would take-away from his observing 305 for an hour or so?

A careful read of the document posted earlier does not convince me in the least that the testimony of the radar operator four days after the fact regarding an event--the jump--that he didn't know had even occurred is infallible. If some want to consider it gospel, well then have at it.

As for me, there are still way too many problems with the entirety of the mystery to simply cast everything aside and announce, "Well some guy watching the radar said this is precisely what happened and where the jet was four days after the fact, so that's good enough for me."
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3253 on: August 09, 2020, 07:49:15 PM »
This is getting ridiculous..now we put question into radar operators except Ammerman?

The information comes from the operator?

Do we start asking who Ammerman was and was he really working that night?
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3254 on: August 09, 2020, 07:55:26 PM »
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This is getting ridiculous..now we put question into radar operators except Ammerman?

The information comes from the operator?

Do we start asking who Ammerman was and was he really working that night?

It's not ridiculous, it's smart.

Come on. How many different descriptions do we have for Cooper's clothing? People are flawed.

The controller probably had no idea 305 was even being trailed, let alone by three jets. Why would he?

Again, he was asked to remember where the airliner was at one specific non-descript area of the flight path four days after the event was over.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK