Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 229329 times)

Offline EU

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1457
  • Thanked: 225 times
    • DB  Cooper: The Definitive Investigation of Sheridan Peterson
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3225 on: August 07, 2020, 11:05:40 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Here is what happened.

If you look over the radio transcripts in The Forum Vault you'll note that R2 handed 305 over to Seattle ATC at 7:59PM. You will then note that the transcripts provide no information until R5 takes over at 8:13PM. Therefore, there is a 14 minute gap in the transcripts with nothing at all.

Ammerman told me that what happened here is that R2 handed 305 over to him(R4) at 7:59PM. He then managed 305, the F-106's and the T-33 during this time. Then, at 8:13 he opted to hand 305 off to R5 because it was too difficult for him to manage everything, specifically, trying to communicate with the military jets while being certain to toggle the switch at ATC to make sure that this communication wasn't also being communicated to 305 because he didn't know if Cooper was in the cockpit or not.

Now, the reason that the transcripts do not show any communication with Ammerman (R4) is because the person handling the transcription of the radio communication days later made a mistake. Specifically, when the radio communication was transcribed, the person who handled it did not account for the fact that when 305 was handed off to Ammerman by R2 that 305 stayed at 10K feet in altitude and did not continue up to the higher altitudes as would happen during a normal flight. Therefore because 305 did not exceed 10k feet--Ammerman who was handling mid-level air traffic in Sector 4--handled the airliner as opposed to the person handling the higher level traffic in Sector 4. So, when the transcriber went to review the audio recordings after the R2 hand-off, this person mistakenly looked into the audio files for the air traffic controller handling the higher level traffic and found nothing.

All of this changed, however, when Ammerman made the hand-off to R5 at 8:13PM--coincidentally almost exactly when Cooper jumped.

This is a very good example of how easy it is for mistakes to be made in an investigation like this. Indeed, it is something along these lines that I believe ultimately explains why the FBI Flight Path map is incorrect.

Eric from my interview notes with Cliff I wrote: 'Cliff was a controller at Seattle Center who handled 305 all the way to a slightly beyond PDX on 11-24-71, the evening of.  After Departure control gave over 305 Cliff handled 305. Cliff was not SEAR2 in the NWA transcript.  Cliff says whoever R2 was, R2 would have handed off to R4, who would have handed off to R5 etc.  Seattle Center was one of 22-26 large air control centeres at the time in the US.  Seattle Center was in a building below the tower at SEA-TAC.'

Beyond that I didnt clarify that further.

Yes, that is basically correct--the lone exception being that he handled 305 until about the Woodland area.

More to the point, Cliff handled both Sector 4 and Sector 5 that night. However, he was responsible for the lower level air traffic--up to 10K feet in altitude--and someone else handled traffic over 10K feet. Therefore, when R2 attempted to hand 305 off at the beginning of Sector 4 there was a very brief problem because the frequency given to 305, or something of that nature, directed 305 to the controller handling the traffic at the higher altitude--remember, 305 was not at that altitude and stayed around 10k feet. This problem was quickly realized and 305 made contact with Ammerman soon thereafter. However, the person who later transcribed the radio communication made the same mistake but didn't think to look into communication with Ammerman. Again, normally an airliner departing Seattle and heading south would head to an altitude of 33,000 feet.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline Robert99

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 854
  • Thanked: 99 times
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3226 on: August 07, 2020, 01:26:24 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Here is what happened.

If you look over the radio transcripts in The Forum Vault you'll note that R2 handed 305 over to Seattle ATC at 7:59PM. You will then note that the transcripts provide no information until R5 takes over at 8:13PM. Therefore, there is a 14 minute gap in the transcripts with nothing at all.

Ammerman told me that what happened here is that R2 handed 305 over to him(R4) at 7:59PM. He then managed 305, the F-106's and the T-33 during this time. Then, at 8:13 he opted to hand 305 off to R5 because it was too difficult for him to manage everything, specifically, trying to communicate with the military jets while being certain to toggle the switch at ATC to make sure that this communication wasn't also being communicated to 305 because he didn't know if Cooper was in the cockpit or not.

Now, the reason that the transcripts do not show any communication with Ammerman (R4) is because the person handling the transcription of the radio communication days later made a mistake. Specifically, when the radio communication was transcribed, the person who handled it did not account for the fact that when 305 was handed off to Ammerman by R2 that 305 stayed at 10K feet in altitude and did not continue up to the higher altitudes as would happen during a normal flight. Therefore because 305 did not exceed 10k feet--Ammerman who was handling mid-level air traffic in Sector 4--handled the airliner as opposed to the person handling the higher level traffic in Sector 4. So, when the transcriber went to review the audio recordings after the R2 hand-off, this person mistakenly looked into the audio files for the air traffic controller handling the higher level traffic and found nothing.

All of this changed, however, when Ammerman made the hand-off to R5 at 8:13PM--coincidentally almost exactly when Cooper jumped.

This is a very good example of how easy it is for mistakes to be made in an investigation like this. Indeed, it is something along these lines that I believe ultimately explains why the FBI Flight Path map is incorrect.

Eric from my interview notes with Cliff I wrote: 'Cliff was a controller at Seattle Center who handled 305 all the way to a slightly beyond PDX on 11-24-71, the evening of.  After Departure control gave over 305 Cliff handled 305. Cliff was not SEAR2 in the NWA transcript.  Cliff says whoever R2 was, R2 would have handed off to R4, who would have handed off to R5 etc.  Seattle Center was one of 22-26 large air control centeres at the time in the US.  Seattle Center was in a building below the tower at SEA-TAC.'

Beyond that I didnt clarify that further.

As Shutter points out above, Seattle ATC Center was in Auburn.  The people in the SEATAC Tower were not center people.

The SEATAC Tower ground controller cleared the airliner to take off and told it to switch immediately to a Seattle ATC frequency.  The airliner took off at 7:36 PM and at 7:37:11 PM was talking to Seattle Center controller R2.

In taking off, the airliner bypassed the usual SEATAC tower controller and the SEATAC tower departure controller.

The Seattle ATC Center radio frequencies were routinely recorded and that recording may, or may not, still exist.  If it still exists, it may be possible to get the FAA to transcribe it again.  In my previous FOIA requests with the FBI and FAA, it was obvious that they had some additional information on this flight path but were just not going to release it for unknown reasons.

It should be remembered that the Seattle ATC Center's Chief signed off twice on that transcript and swore that it was true and complete.  If he saw the currently released transcript, he should have been able to instantly realize that it was not complete and things were missing.

Is anyone on this site on good enough terms with the FBI and FAA to make some discreet inquires on this matter?
« Last Edit: August 07, 2020, 01:28:39 PM by Robert99 »
 

Offline Robert99

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 854
  • Thanked: 99 times
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3227 on: August 07, 2020, 03:38:26 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Here is what happened.

If you look over the radio transcripts in The Forum Vault you'll note that R2 handed 305 over to Seattle ATC at 7:59PM. You will then note that the transcripts provide no information until R5 takes over at 8:13PM. Therefore, there is a 14 minute gap in the transcripts with nothing at all.

Ammerman told me that what happened here is that R2 handed 305 over to him(R4) at 7:59PM. He then managed 305, the F-106's and the T-33 during this time. Then, at 8:13 he opted to hand 305 off to R5 because it was too difficult for him to manage everything, specifically, trying to communicate with the military jets while being certain to toggle the switch at ATC to make sure that this communication wasn't also being communicated to 305 because he didn't know if Cooper was in the cockpit or not.

Now, the reason that the transcripts do not show any communication with Ammerman (R4) is because the person handling the transcription of the radio communication days later made a mistake. Specifically, when the radio communication was transcribed, the person who handled it did not account for the fact that when 305 was handed off to Ammerman by R2 that 305 stayed at 10K feet in altitude and did not continue up to the higher altitudes as would happen during a normal flight. Therefore because 305 did not exceed 10k feet--Ammerman who was handling mid-level air traffic in Sector 4--handled the airliner as opposed to the person handling the higher level traffic in Sector 4. So, when the transcriber went to review the audio recordings after the R2 hand-off, this person mistakenly looked into the audio files for the air traffic controller handling the higher level traffic and found nothing.

All of this changed, however, when Ammerman made the hand-off to R5 at 8:13PM--coincidentally almost exactly when Cooper jumped.

This is a very good example of how easy it is for mistakes to be made in an investigation like this. Indeed, it is something along these lines that I believe ultimately explains why the FBI Flight Path map is incorrect.

I think there is information somewhere that indicates the Seattle ATC radio transcript was prepared on Thanksgiving Day (the day after the hijacking).  Due to the errors, such as calling Victor airways Vector airways, it apparently was prepared by a very new FAA employee.  But these errors should have been caught. 
 

Offline EU

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1457
  • Thanked: 225 times
    • DB  Cooper: The Definitive Investigation of Sheridan Peterson
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3228 on: August 09, 2020, 01:00:05 PM »
Can anyone answer these two basic and very simple questions:

1) If the Air Force utilized functioning SAGE radar data to craft the FBI Flight Path, why then did they need input from NWO Flight Operations, the pilots of the F-106's, a controller at PDX and the Flight Data Recorder?

2) Moreover, why would their flight path map, the location of 305 at certain specific times, and the FBI Search Area ever be modified?
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 
The following users thanked this post: Robert99

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8323
  • Thanked: 807 times
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3229 on: August 09, 2020, 02:01:21 PM »
I would think anytime one is trying to locate a position or a path they would utilize all available avenues or events. (confirmation) I've only seen one flight path map?

Refining the the dropzone wasn't part of the Air Force. it appears after more evidence came in the area became more defined. we don't know exactly how they made the map but to imply it was done by amateur's is ridiculous. those who believe that shouldn't be utilizing any of the data at all...

Why would Ammerman give credit to Portland radar, or agree with the map. he should be another one stating it flew straight down. very simple?

Radar:
What would cause this information to be false after several people agree the radar would be strong and accurate in the area the plane was from 8:10 to 8:30 and why would only the pilots be worried about the bomb on board and not the ground where some claim they were ignored while passing through?

The map IS NOT the exact route. it will have flaws. even GPS is off to a certain degree. this was 1971 and not like today where it would be extremely easy to figure out in most cases.

The placard is years after the fact. hard to say where it originally landed. I was just looking at winds the other day in the Toledo area over the years. 40 to over 60+ mph winds are recorded? according the Blevins it came from a Sacramento flight lol..he's good!
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8323
  • Thanked: 807 times
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3230 on: August 09, 2020, 02:14:49 PM »
Quote
1) If the Air Force utilized functioning SAGE radar data to craft the FBI Flight Path, why then did they need input from NWO Flight Operations, the pilots of the F-106's, a controller at PDX and the Flight Data Recorder?

where did this info come from?
 

Offline EU

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1457
  • Thanked: 225 times
    • DB  Cooper: The Definitive Investigation of Sheridan Peterson
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3231 on: August 09, 2020, 02:32:02 PM »
Didn't the PDX controller state that the jet was actually further east a few miles? Why would this testimony even be considered if SAGE was used to track the precise path?

Ammerman did not agree with the FBI Flight Path. Rather, he stated that he could not dispute it. There is a difference.

Didn't the F-106 pilots reference a small airport at the time 305 made a turn? How is this possible given that the F-106's were flying several miles east of 305, flying at a significantly higher altitude than 305, circling back so as not to get too far ahead of 305, never had visual contact with 305, and had little to no radar contact with 305?

Also, take a close look at the 1972 FBI Flight map (White) and compare it to the FBI Flight Path map (Yellow)...they are slightly different.

Isn't it also interesting that all of the FBI search areas factor in Cooper drifting to the northeast? Yet now we are led to believe that the weather data that Tom Kaye collected and the weather observations from that night were completely wrong. Really? Or did the placard separate from the jet in some Twilight Zone Special Weather Area?

Remember, ground conditions are not the same as conditions aloft. Additionally, the placard was found at an elevation of around 1000 feet, PDX is at an elevation of 30 feet, and Toledo is at an elevation of about 375 feet.

Finally, why is it that some think that human beings are infallible? Does anyone really think that people are incapable of making a mistake...think Dr. Leonard Palmer, think Larry Carr.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2020, 02:39:19 PM by EU »
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8323
  • Thanked: 807 times
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3232 on: August 09, 2020, 02:59:38 PM »
We have several documents from radar operators in the area where Ammerman himself claims would be accurate. the operator himself claimed that as well..two qualified operators agreeing and two that are not operators disagreeing with them?

The radar operator was contacted by NWO and he made the claims of the pin-pointing of v23 reference. had nothing to do with the SAGE..,don't you think the Air Force is well versed in the whole area surrounding McChord? that's there backyard?

my wind reference was for ground and not winds aloft..over the years after 1971 high winds have been recorded in that area..this would be logical over many years in any location? almost a decade had gone by..

Ammerman not disputing the map means he didn't believe it? If I'm not disputing diatoms were on the bills means what, I don't believe they were there?

The Air Force tracked the flight. I have no reason to believe anything was supplied to them information wise other than the fighter pilots. I have never seen any documents they were supplied the FDR. Paul S. utilized all the available information to plot the possible jump...radar, transcripts, Air Force input, radar operators input and the pilots. as more info came to light he refined the jump.
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8323
  • Thanked: 807 times
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3233 on: August 09, 2020, 03:02:56 PM »
Quote
Finally, why is it that some think that human beings are infallible? Does anyone really think that people are incapable of making a mistake...think Dr. Leonard Palmer, think Larry Carr.

Of course mistakes happen..it's one of the reason nothing has been found..but multiple mistakes to the same event is not often in occurrence? as I have mentioned over the years...planes would be running into one another with the faults that are presented..

Valid reasons why the Portland operator's are wrong needs to be presented..everything must be ruled out to move something. I'm not 100% sold on anything..
« Last Edit: August 09, 2020, 03:12:48 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8323
  • Thanked: 807 times
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3234 on: August 09, 2020, 03:28:10 PM »
Apparently, the word "dispute" was not in Ammerman's response to you?

"I sent Cliff Ammerman a copy of the yellow FBI Flight Path map and asked him to review it and let me know if it looked right to him. He called me this morning about the map and said he “would not argue with this track.” In other words, that it may well be correct."
 

Offline EU

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1457
  • Thanked: 225 times
    • DB  Cooper: The Definitive Investigation of Sheridan Peterson
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3235 on: August 09, 2020, 03:42:55 PM »
Let me try again to be as clear as possible regarding what Ammerman has stated--remember I have discussed this with him several times, including on camera.

He says that he cannot disagree with, or dispute, or prove an error with FBI Flight Path map.

He did not say, "I can verify that the FBI Flight Path map is accurate."

The reasons why he can't be absolutely certain of anything regarding the FBI Flight Path map is because his monitor showed a line which indicated where 305 was as it traveled south. This "line" represented anywhere from 4 to 12 miles depending upon how far the target (305) was from the radar site (Salem).

In conclusion, while Ammerman knew that 305 did not fly to Yakima, he did not know if it flew precisely as depicted on the FBI Flight Path map, or if it flew along the Western Flight Path.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8323
  • Thanked: 807 times
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3236 on: August 09, 2020, 03:45:55 PM »
He pretty much answered the question himself explaining the 150 mile range vs 40 mile range and the accuracy Portland would have over his radar? we also have Portland basically stating the same?
 

Offline EU

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1457
  • Thanked: 225 times
    • DB  Cooper: The Definitive Investigation of Sheridan Peterson
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3237 on: August 09, 2020, 03:49:30 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
He pretty much answered the question himself explaining the 150 mile range vs 40 mile range and the accuracy Portland would have over his radar? we also have Portland basically stating the same?

What exactly did the guy at PDX say?
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8323
  • Thanked: 807 times
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3238 on: August 09, 2020, 03:53:09 PM »
The documents have been shown numerous times here and on the DZ..this should have been known and dismissed when trying to move something..one is provided below..
 

Offline EU

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1457
  • Thanked: 225 times
    • DB  Cooper: The Definitive Investigation of Sheridan Peterson
Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3239 on: August 09, 2020, 04:06:44 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The documents have been shown numerous times here and on the DZ..this should have been known and dismissed when trying to move something..one is provided below..

I am asking you what was stated not because I don't know, rather because I'm trying to prove a point.

Once again, why is the testimony of the controller being used to move the flight path one or two miles east? Wouldn't SAGE have been able to be more precise?

Also, how can we be sure that the target that the controller is viewing is actually 305 and not one of the three military jets or something else?

Beyond that, if the dropzone is accurate, where is something that can point to Cooper having been there? How do we explain how the money ended up on Tena Bar? How do we explain where the placard was found? How do we explain where the fiberglass skirt was found? How do we explain the disparity between the white FBI map and the yellow FBI map? How do we explain the FBI Flight Path map showing 305 heading directly to Toledo from SeaTac with no indication that the airliner took off and flew due south for some distance as is typical? Are we to conclude that 305 turned immediately to Toledo upon taking off? By the way, what happened to the 20:04 missing dot on the FBI map?
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK