Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 224759 times)

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3090 on: July 31, 2020, 01:01:28 PM »
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Yes, R99, I know what DMEs are and how they work. Again, they do nothing to either confirm a western flight path nor eliminate a central one.

Again, I will need to see physical evidence before i believe that the federal government didn’t know exactly where that plane was at all time.

Also, the debate about the flight path is sort of moot. The real question is when Cooper jumped.

Chaucer, the federal government DID KNOW where the plane was at all times.  But the federal government doesn't want us to know and that is why there are 19 redactions in the Seattle Air Traffic Control transcripts.  There are no redactions in any other radio transcripts.

The real question is where Cooper jumped.  The time of his jump is known to within about a minute give or take another minute.

Your scenario requires that where Ingram found the money IS the original money deposit site, or the result of an inland scenario where drainage from some higher elevation brings the money to where Ingram found it. And you have never specified where along your west path Cooper is supposed to have bailed and landed, that brings money to the Ingram find site by some undefined drainage scenario where "water runs down hill" (your words).?

What are the 19 redactions you claim exist supposed to say, that is missing ?  Why 19 vs. 22 or 37 or 3 ?

"Your scenario" doesn't require any such thing.  As you know but won't admit, this has been discussed to death for the last 10 years here and on DropZone.  Why 19 redactions?  Because they didn't need 20 redactions to remove the relevant data and 18 redactions were not sufficient.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3091 on: July 31, 2020, 02:06:36 PM »
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Yes, R99, I know what DMEs are and how they work. Again, they do nothing to either confirm a western flight path nor eliminate a central one.

Again, I will need to see physical evidence before i believe that the federal government didn’t know exactly where that plane was at all time.

Also, the debate about the flight path is sort of moot. The real question is when Cooper jumped.

Chaucer, the federal government DID KNOW where the plane was at all times.  But the federal government doesn't want us to know and that is why there are 19 redactions in the Seattle Air Traffic Control transcripts.  There are no redactions in any other radio transcripts.

The real question is where Cooper jumped.  The time of his jump is known to within about a minute give or take another minute.

Your scenario requires that where Ingram found the money IS the original money deposit site, or the result of an inland scenario where drainage from some higher elevation brings the money to where Ingram found it. And you have never specified where along your west path Cooper is supposed to have bailed and landed, that brings money to the Ingram find site by some undefined drainage scenario where "water runs down hill" (your words).?

What are the 19 redactions you claim exist supposed to say, that is missing ?  Why 19 vs. 22 or 37 or 3 ?

"Your scenario" doesn't require any such thing.  As you know but won't admit, this has been discussed to death for the last 10 years here and on DropZone.  Why 19 redactions?  Because they didn't need 20 redactions to remove the relevant data and 18 redactions were not sufficient.

Who and Where were THEY ?  :conspiracy:
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3092 on: July 31, 2020, 02:11:26 PM »
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Ammerman, continued

I just posted my chapter on the flight path at the Mountain News.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

As for the 3rd Edition and when it will be available, that's a bit up in the air. My goal is to get it published by a mainstream publishing house, and that could take many months, if not a year.

The alternative is to continue self-pubbing it at Amazon.

Regardless, it will be out by November 24, 2021 for the 50th Anniversary.

In the meantime, I'm happy to share elected chapters and passages with anyone who would like to do a little "Beta Reading...." R99? I'll post the current Table of Contents in the "News" thread and you can take your pick.

Bruce, I have done a fast read of the chapter you linked to above and I do believe I will be able to help you by filling in some of the details, correcting some misstatements, etc..  I would like to point out that this is the first time that I have seen anything about your and EU's interview with Ammerman.  And I haven't seen anything about what happened at last years Cooper event in Portland.  But I have a couple of comments at this point.

First, my 70+ year old memory on this point is that Victor airways were 10 STATUTE MILES wide when I started flying but were changed at some point to being 8 NAUTICAL MILES wide (which is 9.2 STATUTE MILES).  Ammerman apparently told you and EU that Victor airways were still 10 STATUTE MILES wide in 1971.  In working up the bypass flight path, I tried to determine when the change in width was made but could not find any information on when it was done.  Ammerman keeps the bypass flight path very close to V-23 at all points.

On the Expedition Unknown filming at Tina Bar in 2016, you, Meyer Louie, and I were involved with that.  The bypass flight path was explained during that filming but the program went with a jump near Reno.  Our explanation at Tina Bar obviously ended up on "the cutting room floor" or wherever the digital version of the filming goes in this day and age.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3093 on: July 31, 2020, 02:15:02 PM »
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Yes, R99, I know what DMEs are and how they work. Again, they do nothing to either confirm a western flight path nor eliminate a central one.

Again, I will need to see physical evidence before i believe that the federal government didn’t know exactly where that plane was at all time.

Also, the debate about the flight path is sort of moot. The real question is when Cooper jumped.

Chaucer, the federal government DID KNOW where the plane was at all times.  But the federal government doesn't want us to know and that is why there are 19 redactions in the Seattle Air Traffic Control transcripts.  There are no redactions in any other radio transcripts.

The real question is where Cooper jumped.  The time of his jump is known to within about a minute give or take another minute.

Your scenario requires that where Ingram found the money IS the original money deposit site, or the result of an inland scenario where drainage from some higher elevation brings the money to where Ingram found it. And you have never specified where along your west path Cooper is supposed to have bailed and landed, that brings money to the Ingram find site by some undefined drainage scenario where "water runs down hill" (your words).?

What are the 19 redactions you claim exist supposed to say, that is missing ?  Why 19 vs. 22 or 37 or 3 ?

"Your scenario" doesn't require any such thing.  As you know but won't admit, this has been discussed to death for the last 10 years here and on DropZone.  Why 19 redactions?  Because they didn't need 20 redactions to remove the relevant data and 18 redactions were not sufficient.

Who and Where were THEY ?  :conspiracy:

Think "FBI".
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3094 on: July 31, 2020, 02:18:06 PM »
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Ammerman, continued

I just posted my chapter on the flight path at the Mountain News.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

As for the 3rd Edition and when it will be available, that's a bit up in the air. My goal is to get it published by a mainstream publishing house, and that could take many months, if not a year.

The alternative is to continue self-pubbing it at Amazon.

Regardless, it will be out by November 24, 2021 for the 50th Anniversary.

In the meantime, I'm happy to share elected chapters and passages with anyone who would like to do a little "Beta Reading...." R99? I'll post the current Table of Contents in the "News" thread and you can take your pick.

Overwhelmerd.

Headline: CONSPIRACY ICEBERG 'SMITHIE" HITS HIJACKED PLANE ! NO SURVIVORS. 7000 PARTS FOUND! GHOULISH SCENE -  MKULTRA RUSHING TO SCENE.

 
« Last Edit: July 31, 2020, 02:35:20 PM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3095 on: August 01, 2020, 04:50:37 AM »
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Ammerman, continued

I just posted my chapter on the flight path at the Mountain News.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

As for the 3rd Edition and when it will be available, that's a bit up in the air. My goal is to get it published by a mainstream publishing house, and that could take many months, if not a year.

The alternative is to continue self-pubbing it at Amazon.

Regardless, it will be out by November 24, 2021 for the 50th Anniversary.

In the meantime, I'm happy to share elected chapters and passages with anyone who would like to do a little "Beta Reading...." R99? I'll post the current Table of Contents in the "News" thread and you can take your pick.

Bruce, I have done a fast read of the chapter you linked to above and I do believe I will be able to help you by filling in some of the details, correcting some misstatements, etc..  I would like to point out that this is the first time that I have seen anything about your and EU's interview with Ammerman.  And I haven't seen anything about what happened at last years Cooper event in Portland.  But I have a couple of comments at this point.

First, my 70+ year old memory on this point is that Victor airways were 10 STATUTE MILES wide when I started flying but were changed at some point to being 8 NAUTICAL MILES wide (which is 9.2 STATUTE MILES).  Ammerman apparently told you and EU that Victor airways were still 10 STATUTE MILES wide in 1971.  In working up the bypass flight path, I tried to determine when the change in width was made but could not find any information on when it was done.  Ammerman keeps the bypass flight path very close to V-23 at all points.

On the Expedition Unknown filming at Tina Bar in 2016, you, Meyer Louie, and I were involved with that.  The bypass flight path was explained during that filming but the program went with a jump near Reno.  Our explanation at Tina Bar obviously ended up on "the cutting room floor" or wherever the digital version of the filming goes in this day and age.

1. V-23

Yes, I do believe the discrepancy has to do with 8 nautical miles versus 10 statute miles. I think you've explained it well. However, I thought 1 nm is 1.3 statute miles, which makes 8 nm 10.4 statute miles, no?

2. Josh Gates and the WFP.

Yes, the three amigos of you, Meyer, and I were interviewed by Josh and the Gang at T-Bar. However, the version of the broadcast I saw did include a discussion of the wfp, which pleased me. Yes, the show did end with Joshie jumping out over the sagebrush of Reno, which was disappointing. Alas - and a warning to all DB Cooper aficionados when Hollywood comes a-knocking - ya probably gonna get a kick in the balls at some point, and ya may never see it comin'...

...OOPS. I just did the math. 1 nm is 1.15 statute miles. Hence, 8 nm is 9.2 statute miles. I had been mis-informed.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2020, 04:53:52 AM by Bruce A. Smith »
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3096 on: August 01, 2020, 04:00:21 PM »
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Ammerman, continued

I just posted my chapter on the flight path at the Mountain News.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

As for the 3rd Edition and when it will be available, that's a bit up in the air. My goal is to get it published by a mainstream publishing house, and that could take many months, if not a year.

The alternative is to continue self-pubbing it at Amazon.

Regardless, it will be out by November 24, 2021 for the 50th Anniversary.

In the meantime, I'm happy to share elected chapters and passages with anyone who would like to do a little "Beta Reading...." R99? I'll post the current Table of Contents in the "News" thread and you can take your pick.

Bruce, I have done a fast read of the chapter you linked to above and I do believe I will be able to help you by filling in some of the details, correcting some misstatements, etc..  I would like to point out that this is the first time that I have seen anything about your and EU's interview with Ammerman.  And I haven't seen anything about what happened at last years Cooper event in Portland.  But I have a couple of comments at this point.

First, my 70+ year old memory on this point is that Victor airways were 10 STATUTE MILES wide when I started flying but were changed at some point to being 8 NAUTICAL MILES wide (which is 9.2 STATUTE MILES).  Ammerman apparently told you and EU that Victor airways were still 10 STATUTE MILES wide in 1971.  In working up the bypass flight path, I tried to determine when the change in width was made but could not find any information on when it was done.  Ammerman keeps the bypass flight path very close to V-23 at all points.

On the Expedition Unknown filming at Tina Bar in 2016, you, Meyer Louie, and I were involved with that.  The bypass flight path was explained during that filming but the program went with a jump near Reno.  Our explanation at Tina Bar obviously ended up on "the cutting room floor" or wherever the digital version of the filming goes in this day and age.

1. V-23

Yes, I do believe the discrepancy has to do with 8 nautical miles versus 10 statute miles. I think you've explained it well. However, I thought 1 nm is 1.3 statute miles, which makes 8 nm 10.4 statute miles, no?

2. Josh Gates and the WFP.

Yes, the three amigos of you, Meyer, and I were interviewed by Josh and the Gang at T-Bar. However, the version of the broadcast I saw did include a discussion of the wfp, which pleased me. Yes, the show did end with Joshie jumping out over the sagebrush of Reno, which was disappointing. Alas - and a warning to all DB Cooper aficionados when Hollywood comes a-knocking - ya probably gonna get a kick in the balls at some point, and ya may never see it comin'...

...OOPS. I just did the math. 1 nm is 1.15 statute miles. Hence, 8 nm is 9.2 statute miles. I had been mis-informed.

Smith, according to your interview of Ammerman, where did 305 and the T33 connect, north of Portland or below Portland near Lake Oswego ?

You dont cover this in your chapter.

EU has previously posted: "Ammerman stated that the T-33 pulled in behind 305 NNW of PDX. Therefore, 305 was never north or east of PDX."

The FBI fp has 305 very clearly arriving from the north and north east across Vancouver toward Portland, as shown below! Is Ammerman now saying the whole FBI flight path is radically wrongo-dongo in a cabanna for the insane! ?
« Last Edit: August 01, 2020, 04:52:50 PM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3097 on: August 01, 2020, 04:40:26 PM »
Smith, you say:

"Nevertheless, the Western Flight Path is now highly regarded by most DB Cooper aficionados. In fact, Josh Gates and his Expedition Unknown telecast crew on the Travel Channel filmed an episode on this very issue in 2016."

Who are these "most DB Cooper aficionados" and where are they? Have they ever had a meeting somewhere on Earth?

Has Ammerman had a chance to read your chapter and what does he say about it, especially your and EU's words attributed to him?   

Will Ammerman ever be given that opportunity without interference from you or EU?  ;)
« Last Edit: August 01, 2020, 04:50:06 PM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3098 on: August 01, 2020, 05:26:08 PM »
Here are your choices "most DB Cooper aficionados" !

 :conspiracy: :conspiracy: :conspiracy: :conspiracy: :conspiracy:

Report to Headquarters tomorrow for your Instructions and a Blessing...

 :rofl:

ps: PLEASE CHANGE YOUR MANUALS - INSERT ON PAGE 1876 -  "When Cooper jumped no longer matters. It never did matter."   *This comes from the Highest DB Cooper Aficionados Authority.     
« Last Edit: August 01, 2020, 05:48:27 PM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3099 on: August 01, 2020, 06:01:06 PM »
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Ammerman, continued

I just posted my chapter on the flight path at the Mountain News.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

As for the 3rd Edition and when it will be available, that's a bit up in the air. My goal is to get it published by a mainstream publishing house, and that could take many months, if not a year.

The alternative is to continue self-pubbing it at Amazon.

Regardless, it will be out by November 24, 2021 for the 50th Anniversary.

In the meantime, I'm happy to share elected chapters and passages with anyone who would like to do a little "Beta Reading...." R99? I'll post the current Table of Contents in the "News" thread and you can take your pick.

Bruce, I have done a fast read of the chapter you linked to above and I do believe I will be able to help you by filling in some of the details, correcting some misstatements, etc..  I would like to point out that this is the first time that I have seen anything about your and EU's interview with Ammerman.  And I haven't seen anything about what happened at last years Cooper event in Portland.  But I have a couple of comments at this point.

First, my 70+ year old memory on this point is that Victor airways were 10 STATUTE MILES wide when I started flying but were changed at some point to being 8 NAUTICAL MILES wide (which is 9.2 STATUTE MILES).  Ammerman apparently told you and EU that Victor airways were still 10 STATUTE MILES wide in 1971.  In working up the bypass flight path, I tried to determine when the change in width was made but could not find any information on when it was done.  Ammerman keeps the bypass flight path very close to V-23 at all points.

On the Expedition Unknown filming at Tina Bar in 2016, you, Meyer Louie, and I were involved with that.  The bypass flight path was explained during that filming but the program went with a jump near Reno.  Our explanation at Tina Bar obviously ended up on "the cutting room floor" or wherever the digital version of the filming goes in this day and age.

1. V-23

Yes, I do believe the discrepancy has to do with 8 nautical miles versus 10 statute miles. I think you've explained it well. However, I thought 1 nm is 1.3 statute miles, which makes 8 nm 10.4 statute miles, no?

2. Josh Gates and the WFP.

Yes, the three amigos of you, Meyer, and I were interviewed by Josh and the Gang at T-Bar. However, the version of the broadcast I saw did include a discussion of the wfp, which pleased me. Yes, the show did end with Joshie jumping out over the sagebrush of Reno, which was disappointing. Alas - and a warning to all DB Cooper aficionados when Hollywood comes a-knocking - ya probably gonna get a kick in the balls at some point, and ya may never see it comin'...

...OOPS. I just did the math. 1 nm is 1.15 statute miles. Hence, 8 nm is 9.2 statute miles. I had been mis-informed.

Smith, according to your interview of Ammerman, where did 305 and the T33 connect, north of Portland or below Portland near Lake Oswego ?

You dont cover this in your chapter.

EU has previously posted: "Ammerman stated that the T-33 pulled in behind 305 NNW of PDX. Therefore, 305 was never north or east of PDX."

The FBI fp has 305 very clearly arriving from the north and north east across Vancouver toward Portland, as shown below! Is Ammerman now saying the whole FBI flight path is radically wrongo-dongo in a cabanna for the insane! ?

My memory says that Cliff told me that the T-33 pulled in behind 305 above Portland. The "NNW of PDX" sounds familiar. I'll check my notes, shortly, but not now.

Yes, I would say that Ammerman's recollections are at odds with the FBI's official perspective. Adding to doubt of the FBI, the feds never talked to Ammerman. Poor police work, at the very least.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3100 on: August 01, 2020, 06:27:42 PM »
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Here are your choices "most DB Cooper aficionados" !

 :conspiracy: :conspiracy: :conspiracy: :conspiracy: :conspiracy:

Report to Headquarters tomorrow for your Instructions and a Blessing...

 :rofl:

ps: PLEASE CHANGE YOUR MANUALS - INSERT ON PAGE 1876 -  "When Cooper jumped no longer matters. It never did matter."   *This comes from the Highest DB Cooper Aficionados Authority.   

Georger, you have previously claimed a number of times, including just a day or two ago, that Ammerman told you that the airliner stayed on the centerline of V-23 in the Portland area.  Your claimed statement alone completely contradicts the FBI flight path that meanders all over the Pacific Northwest and does so especially in the Portland/Vancouver area.
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3101 on: August 01, 2020, 07:24:16 PM »
The Ammerman story is getting somewhat twisted. Here is what he conveyed to me on multiple occasions, including when I met with him in-person:

1) 305 appeared to stay within V-23.

2) Given the location of the radar source (Salem) and the size of the depicted target on his screen, 305 could be located anywhere on the target display which involves several miles from one side to the other. Therefore, even though a portion of the target may be within V-23, in reality the jet could be on the left side of the target and therefore a handful of miles outside of V-23 proper.

3) The trailing T-33 was given one heading as it followed 305, thereby indicating that it did not need to make the erratic turns that the FBI Flight Path depicts...which suggests that 305 flew a straight line and not all over the place as if GEORGER were behind the wheel.

4) That said, if 305 did turn left, then right, then left again as shown on the FBI Flight Path map, he (Ammerman) wouldn't necessarily notice such activity on his screen---the resolution was not of a necessary high quality.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3102 on: August 01, 2020, 11:58:34 PM »
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The Ammerman story is getting somewhat twisted. Here is what he conveyed to me on multiple occasions, including when I met with him in-person:

1) 305 appeared to stay within V-23.

2) Given the location of the radar source (Salem) and the size of the depicted target on his screen, 305 could be located anywhere on the target display which involves several miles from one side to the other. Therefore, even though a portion of the target may be within V-23, in reality the jet could be on the left side of the target and therefore a handful of miles outside of V-23 proper.

3) The trailing T-33 was given one heading as it followed 305, thereby indicating that it did not need to make the erratic turns that the FBI Flight Path depicts...which suggests that 305 flew a straight line and not all over the place as if GEORGER were behind the wheel.

4) That said, if 305 did turn left, then right, then left again as shown on the FBI Flight Path map, he (Ammerman) wouldn't necessarily notice such activity on his screen---the resolution was not of a necessary high quality.

OK - #1 seems secure and agrees with what A told me several years before your interview.

#2 EU has previously posted: "Ammerman stated that the T-33 pulled in behind 305 NNW of PDX. Therefore, 305 was never north or east of PDX."
The previous Ammerman testimony is that he brought the T33 and 305 together south of Portland near Lake Oswego. This was shared with the whole Cooper community along with graphics and people discussed it. I seem to recall the T33 pilot was also interviewed ?

Keep in mind the T33 launched from the Natl Guard base at PDX then flew north and turned south .... and was brought in behind 305 near Lake Oswego by Ammerman personally, according to Ammerman's prior testimony. ? In order to achieve this intersection Ammerman had to talk to the T33 pilot on a military frequency (a separate radio) and that was the period, according to Ammerman, when he turned away from his screen briefly during which time 305 had made his turn to the south 'just' on the west side of Portland ... Ammerman looked back at his screen to get 305's current position and THAT is when Ammerman gave the T33 instructions for a rendezvous with 305, which happened near Lake Oswego south of Portland. This sequence of events has been posted and talk about for years, based on Ammerman's own description of events .  Now this all changes with your interview for some reason!      This is a wholesale revision of the facts previously given by Ammerman, according to you, EU. 

It's my understanding the T33 was launched from PDX. It was not already in the air waiting when 305 was approaching PDX.  Ammerman was very specific! Ammerman had to set up a rendezvous between T33 and 305 and that could only happen after 305 turned south. 305 was never north in the T33's intercept sector to make an intercept NORTH of Portland happen! By the time Ammerman wads done talking to the T33 pilot and looked back at his screen to set up a rendevois, 305 had turned south ... which now made an intercept of 305 by the T33 possible. 305 was never NNW of Portland to have a rendezvous with, as Mr. Ulis describes it!
« Last Edit: August 02, 2020, 12:22:10 AM by georger »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3103 on: August 02, 2020, 01:03:06 AM »
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The Ammerman story is getting somewhat twisted. Here is what he conveyed to me on multiple occasions, including when I met with him in-person:

1) 305 appeared to stay within V-23.

2) Given the location of the radar source (Salem) and the size of the depicted target on his screen, 305 could be located anywhere on the target display which involves several miles from one side to the other. Therefore, even though a portion of the target may be within V-23, in reality the jet could be on the left side of the target and therefore a handful of miles outside of V-23 proper.

3) The trailing T-33 was given one heading as it followed 305, thereby indicating that it did not need to make the erratic turns that the FBI Flight Path depicts...which suggests that 305 flew a straight line and not all over the place as if GEORGER were behind the wheel.

4) That said, if 305 did turn left, then right, then left again as shown on the FBI Flight Path map, he (Ammerman) wouldn't necessarily notice such activity on his screen---the resolution was not of a necessary high quality.

OK - #1 seems secure and agrees with what A told me several years before your interview.

#2 EU has previously posted: "Ammerman stated that the T-33 pulled in behind 305 NNW of PDX. Therefore, 305 was never north or east of PDX."
The previous Ammerman testimony is that he brought the T33 and 305 together south of Portland near Lake Oswego. This was shared with the whole Cooper community along with graphics and people discussed it. I seem to recall the T33 pilot was also interviewed ?

Keep in mind the T33 launched from the Natl Guard base at PDX then flew north and turned south .... and was brought in behind 305 near Lake Oswego by Ammerman personally, according to Ammerman's prior testimony. ? In order to achieve this intersection Ammerman had to talk to the T33 pilot on a military frequency (a separate radio) and that was the period, according to Ammerman, when he turned away from his screen briefly during which time 305 had made his turn to the south 'just' on the west side of Portland ... Ammerman looked back at his screen to get 305's current position and THAT is when Ammerman gave the T33 instructions for a rendezvous with 305, which happened near Lake Oswego south of Portland. This sequence of events has been posted and talk about for years, based on Ammerman's own description of events .  Now this all changes with your interview for some reason!      This is a wholesale revision of the facts previously given by Ammerman, according to you, EU. 

It's my understanding the T33 was launched from PDX. It was not already in the air waiting when 305 was approaching PDX.  Ammerman was very specific! Ammerman had to set up a rendezvous between T33 and 305 and that could only happen after 305 turned south. 305 was never north in the T33's intercept sector to make an intercept NORTH of Portland happen! By the time Ammerman wads done talking to the T33 pilot and looked back at his screen to set up a rendevois, 305 had turned south ... which now made an intercept of 305 by the T33 possible. 305 was never NNW of Portland to have a rendezvous with, as Mr. Ulis describes it!

Georger, the T-33 took off from PIA and headed WEST on a training mission.  It was headed to a practice area (the location of which is never stated) or maybe to the Pacific Ocean.

The Malay Intersecton on V-23 is North Northwest (NNW) of Portland and that means the airliner was NNW of Portland as it approached Portland.  Nothing supports the idea that the airliner was east of Portland.

It appears that everything Ammerman told EU and Bruce Smith supports the Western Flight Path.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3104 on: August 02, 2020, 04:34:30 AM »
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The Ammerman story is getting somewhat twisted. Here is what he conveyed to me on multiple occasions, including when I met with him in-person:

1) 305 appeared to stay within V-23.

2) Given the location of the radar source (Salem) and the size of the depicted target on his screen, 305 could be located anywhere on the target display which involves several miles from one side to the other. Therefore, even though a portion of the target may be within V-23, in reality the jet could be on the left side of the target and therefore a handful of miles outside of V-23 proper.

3) The trailing T-33 was given one heading as it followed 305, thereby indicating that it did not need to make the erratic turns that the FBI Flight Path depicts...which suggests that 305 flew a straight line and not all over the place as if GEORGER were behind the wheel.

4) That said, if 305 did turn left, then right, then left again as shown on the FBI Flight Path map, he (Ammerman) wouldn't necessarily notice such activity on his screen---the resolution was not of a necessary high quality.

OK - #1 seems secure and agrees with what A told me several years before your interview.

#2 EU has previously posted: "Ammerman stated that the T-33 pulled in behind 305 NNW of PDX. Therefore, 305 was never north or east of PDX."
The previous Ammerman testimony is that he brought the T33 and 305 together south of Portland near Lake Oswego. This was shared with the whole Cooper community along with graphics and people discussed it. I seem to recall the T33 pilot was also interviewed ?

Keep in mind the T33 launched from the Natl Guard base at PDX then flew north and turned south .... and was brought in behind 305 near Lake Oswego by Ammerman personally, according to Ammerman's prior testimony. ? In order to achieve this intersection Ammerman had to talk to the T33 pilot on a military frequency (a separate radio) and that was the period, according to Ammerman, when he turned away from his screen briefly during which time 305 had made his turn to the south 'just' on the west side of Portland ... Ammerman looked back at his screen to get 305's current position and THAT is when Ammerman gave the T33 instructions for a rendezvous with 305, which happened near Lake Oswego south of Portland. This sequence of events has been posted and talk about for years, based on Ammerman's own description of events .  Now this all changes with your interview for some reason!      This is a wholesale revision of the facts previously given by Ammerman, according to you, EU. 

It's my understanding the T33 was launched from PDX. It was not already in the air waiting when 305 was approaching PDX.  Ammerman was very specific! Ammerman had to set up a rendezvous between T33 and 305 and that could only happen after 305 turned south. 305 was never north in the T33's intercept sector to make an intercept NORTH of Portland happen! By the time Ammerman wads done talking to the T33 pilot and looked back at his screen to set up a rendevois, 305 had turned south ... which now made an intercept of 305 by the T33 possible. 305 was never NNW of Portland to have a rendezvous with, as Mr. Ulis describes it!

Georger, the T-33 took off from PIA and headed WEST on a training mission.  It was headed to a practice area (the location of which is never stated) or maybe to the Pacific Ocean.

The Malay Intersecton on V-23 is North Northwest (NNW) of Portland and that means the airliner was NNW of Portland as it approached Portland.  Nothing supports the idea that the airliner was east of Portland.

It appears that everything Ammerman told EU and Bruce Smith supports the Western Flight Path.

The T33 training mission was cancelled! The T33 was never near Malay. Malay has nothing to do with this. The T33 Instructor-Pilot Norman Battaglia was interviewed and a synopsis of his mission intercepting 305 was published - as you very well know! More fun and games from R99 I see.

The T33 most certainly did not intercept 305 anywhere near Malay, if that is what you are trying to claim!

More later.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2020, 04:40:41 AM by georger »
 
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