Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 231923 times)

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3000 on: May 08, 2020, 01:52:05 PM »
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Nobody should be surprised when suspect peddlers DONT WANT Cooper's genome known or explored!

I mean why destroy a free ride to fame and news coverage! Belittle anyone trying to open that box. Take the high road and claim you know more than they do. Claim they are trouble makers. Who cares about the actual case at issue!

It works every time!   :congrats:

Georger, except for the term "suspect peddler," you just described yourself.

How so? Explain?  I have no suspects. My only suspect is DB Cooper!

You have no interest in knowing Cooper's partial profile and if he had one eye or two?  You have something against "loci" and vaccinations and education? 

FACT*  I have had the IGNORE button active on you for almost a year - I will no longer over ride the Ignore button to read your posts - My assessment is you have nothing of value. And it isn't worth the struggle trying to keep you happy! Bye bye.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2020, 02:45:08 PM by georger »
 

Offline Unsurelock

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3001 on: May 09, 2020, 03:36:41 PM »
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Nobody should be surprised when suspect peddlers DONT WANT Cooper's genome known or explored!

I mean why destroy a free ride to fame and news coverage! Belittle anyone trying to open that box. Take the high road and claim you know more than they do. Claim they are trouble makers. Who cares about the actual case at issue!

It works every time!   :congrats:

Georger, except for the term "suspect peddler," you just described yourself.

How so? Explain?  I have no suspects. My only suspect is DB Cooper!

You have no interest in knowing Cooper's partial profile and if he had one eye or two?  You have something against "loci" and vaccinations and education? 

FACT*  I have had the IGNORE button active on you for almost a year - I will no longer over ride the Ignore button to read your posts - My assessment is you have nothing of value. And it isn't worth the struggle trying to keep you happy! Bye bye.

Are you sure you read my post right?  Because I acknowledged that you didn't have any Cooper suspects.

And there's no sense in lying. Here's how you show people they have nothing of value:

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Let's do this then: Let's not try to narrow down the search area, lets widen it. Let's add the original flight path with any and all proposed flight paths, adjust for the strongest and mildest winds and directions, and get the biggest patch of land possible for a dropzone from a 727 in flight on that rough trajectory.

It's been fifty years. They've looked. The cops. The feds. The Guard. The treasure hunters. The land developers. The hunters and campers and fishermen and joggers and hikers and little kids. The freaks with metal detectors and planes. They've covered all of it. Every plot of land is owned by someone, and has been surveyed and sold probably several times each since '71, and they didn't mention a body clutching a bomb. Perhaps nobody looked hard enough? Or perhaps they didn't know what to look for?

Actually, they did. With all of the trash to be found in the woods, someone found a placard from a 727 rear stairs and correctly identified it. They knew the story. Everybody knew. And all they found was that and the money. And the money was found by a guy from Oklahoma, who still tied it to Cooper, because everybody knew what to look for. And they did. And they found nothing.

The flight path is only relevant if it can establish a search area. Fifty years has expanded and exhausted that search area, rendering the flight path meaningless except in the event that Bill Rataczak came out and said, "yeah, I flew East to drown the bastard," which he hasn't. And I have no reason not to believe him.

So using the concept of a calculated search perimeter, if a subject is on the run on foot, you calculate the distance they are capable of traveling during the time it took you to mobilize, and you set up a radius around the spot they started from. In this case, all of that is blown, because nobody was able to properly react. Cooper could have been long gone before any of them got close to his landing zone.

Is it possible that Cooper's body is there somewhere? Only as possible as logic will allow for. On Thanksgiving 1971, it was extremely possible. After the cops searched it was less possible. After the FBI and Nat'l Guard searched, even less. After the public searched all year, it became improbable. After all of the above searched for 50 years, we have to admit that the dingo ate the baby. Rather Cooper got away. OR that someone got away with robbing his corpse and burying him wrapped in his chute. Because the only thing worth taking is the money, which was partially found. Nothing else he had was found.

Try this: Go to Zillow.com and search for homes in that area to see how well-developed the land is now. Backhoes and diggers putting in sewers and foundations for half a century. No skyjackers found.

So what physical evidence would you look for, and where would you look?

Too bad you werent around when Farflung was - you two would make a potent pair! Its refreshing to have some sound logic applied in this forum!   :congrats:

This carrot or stick technique, where you reward people (carrot) for agreeing with you then attack them (stick) for disagreeing with you, is a classic sign of Narcissistic Personality Disorder. There are coping skills that can be learned that can help repair damaged relationships in people's lives. It's worth looking into. In the meantime, you are utterly transparent.
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3002 on: May 15, 2020, 06:11:02 PM »
Had an interesting talk with Shutter today which led to the realization that there are essentially six drop zones advocated in some manner or another:

1) FBI Drop Zone
2) Washougal Drop Zone
3) Cle Elum Drop Zone (Reca)
4) Columbia River Drop Zone (Near PDX)
5) Caterpillar Island Drop Zone (R99)
6) Ridgefield Drop Zone (EU)

With this in mind, it's interesting to consider each of these drop zones, the evidence, their viability, and the ability for each of them to provide answers for such things as: How did the money arrive at Tena Bar? or How did Cooper escape once he landed?
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3003 on: May 15, 2020, 11:57:43 PM »
Remember, there are two FBI drop zones. The first one was Amboy, circa 1971-1972.

The second one is Hockinson, circa 1975. This LZ is about 10 miles south of Amboy and is wide-open dairy lands. And within walking distance to PDX.... a long walk at 20 miles, but still...
 
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Offline Kermit

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3004 on: July 23, 2020, 01:54:22 PM »
A few posters have been aware I’ve contacted William Rataczak last August. I received a very nice response on Sept 11, 2019. I asked him only one question “ Did you see the lights of Portland/Vancouver on flight 305 ? “.
His direct answer was “ No, we did not see those lights that night; only their glow. The reason is that we were flying in heavy over and undercast skies. “  Since I was born about 25 miles from his present home, we exchanged a number of familiarities.
 
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3005 on: July 23, 2020, 02:16:02 PM »
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A few posters have been aware I’ve contacted William Rataczak last August. I received a very nice response on Sept 11, 2019. I asked him only one question “ Did you see the lights of Portland/Vancouver on flight 305 ? “.
His direct answer was “ No, we did not see those lights that night; only their glow. The reason is that we were flying in heavy over and undercast skies. “  Since I was born about 25 miles from his present home, we exchanged a number of familiarities.

Hopefully, that puts that point to rest.  Basically, this means that Cooper could not have known exactly (or to within 20 or 30 miles) where he was when he jumped.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2020, 02:25:08 PM by Robert99 »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3006 on: July 23, 2020, 03:39:15 PM »
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A few posters have been aware I’ve contacted William Rataczak last August. I received a very nice response on Sept 11, 2019. I asked him only one question “ Did you see the lights of Portland/Vancouver on flight 305 ? “.
His direct answer was “ No, we did not see those lights that night; only their glow. The reason is that we were flying in heavy over and undercast skies. “  Since I was born about 25 miles from his present home, we exchanged a number of familiarities.

Hopefully, that puts that point to rest.  Basically, this means that Cooper could not have known exactly (or to within 20 or 30 miles) where he was when he jumped.

No! I think you miss the POINT. Actually two or three or four points. (1) R saw the GLOW of Portland/Vancouver. That is his answer. (2) There is no other skyglow flying south from Seattle to Reno in the same position. Of the roughly 700 mile separation between Reno and Seattle, the skyglow R saw defines a less than 2% area on the whole trip, which can ONLY be Vancouver/Portland. To a person jumping from 10,000 feet on a 700 mile journey that sky glow puts Cooper to within only 14 miles of his target, if Vancouver/Portland was his target. (3) Cooper was able to identify cities from the air - there is direct evidence of that. Cooper knew where he was, from the air. (4) The fact of overcast and cloud layers is - IRRELEVANT. In fact the clouds might have created an advantage so far as identifying large areas of sky glow representing urban arreas, are concerned. !

Likewise, keep track of the fact that your colleague Galen Cook says that Cooper was timing the flight by burning matches in his match book - so Cooper had a clock according to Cook - match burning.

However, you will continue your narrative because you have no choice. That is the position you have put yourself in! So go back to talking about Cooper's 'psychology' and why he could not see sky glow from an airplane in clouds. Search for something in Thermodynamics, like water runs down hill, to bolster your narrative.  West path vs FBI path is irrelevant. It's the place R saw the sky glow that matters. You might concentrate on how Cooper cannot see out of airplanes. Blevins claim optical physics changes in the cabins of airplanes might apply? It's your choice .... or your move. Good luck. Try arts & crafts.   ;D

 :rofl:
« Last Edit: July 23, 2020, 03:54:52 PM by georger »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3007 on: July 23, 2020, 05:04:57 PM »
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A few posters have been aware I’ve contacted William Rataczak last August. I received a very nice response on Sept 11, 2019. I asked him only one question “ Did you see the lights of Portland/Vancouver on flight 305 ? “.
His direct answer was “ No, we did not see those lights that night; only their glow. The reason is that we were flying in heavy over and undercast skies. “  Since I was born about 25 miles from his present home, we exchanged a number of familiarities.

Hopefully, that puts that point to rest.  Basically, this means that Cooper could not have known exactly (or to within 20 or 30 miles) where he was when he jumped.

No! I think you miss the POINT. Actually two or three or four points. (1) R saw the GLOW of Portland/Vancouver. That is his answer. (2) There is no other skyglow flying south from Seattle to Reno in the same position. Of the roughly 700 mile separation between Reno and Seattle, the skyglow R saw defines a less than 2% area on the whole trip, which can ONLY be Vancouver/Portland. To a person jumping from 10,000 feet on a 700 mile journey that sky glow puts Cooper to within only 14 miles of his target, if Vancouver/Portland was his target. (3) Cooper was able to identify cities from the air - there is direct evidence of that. Cooper knew where he was, from the air. (4) The fact of overcast and cloud layers is - IRRELEVANT. In fact the clouds might have created an advantage so far as identifying large areas of sky glow representing urban arreas, are concerned. !

Likewise, keep track of the fact that your colleague Galen Cook says that Cooper was timing the flight by burning matches in his match book - so Cooper had a clock according to Cook - match burning.

However, you will continue your narrative because you have no choice. That is the position you have put yourself in! So go back to talking about Cooper's 'psychology' and why he could not see sky glow from an airplane in clouds. Search for something in Thermodynamics, like water runs down hill, to bolster your narrative.  West path vs FBI path is irrelevant. It's the place R saw the sky glow that matters. You might concentrate on how Cooper cannot see out of airplanes. Blevins claim optical physics changes in the cabins of airplanes might apply? It's your choice .... or your move. Good luck. Try arts & crafts.   ;D

 :rofl:

Georger, your reply above is absolute nonsense.  There is "sky glow" from EVER populated area whether it is Wick, Iowa (population 40 people) or Los Angeles, California (population 10 million plus and counting).  A thin cloud layer under the airliner would eliminate the glow from Wick, Iowa but the glow from LA could probably penetrate heavy cloud layers to 30,000+ feet.  Rataczak knew he was looking at the glow from Portland/Vancouver because he was involved in the navigation of the airliner as was Scott and Anderson and they damn well got paid to know where they were.

Burning matches to time the flight distances?  I must say that no one mentioned such a thing to me in my 50 or so piloting years!  In 1971, I was using my Accutron wrist watch to time things.  But there are a few minor problems here.  Cooper didn't know the airliner's indicated airspeed, he didn't know the airliner's true airspeed, and he didn't know the winds aloft speeds or directions.  Consequently, there is NO way that Cooper could have determined the ground speed which is what is important here.  Further, Cooper didn't even know the route that the airliner was flying since he never discussed such a thing with the flight crew.  And if Rataczak hadn't been over ruled by NWA senior management, Cooper would have found himself jumping into the Pacific Ocean (which would have been a fitting climax to the hijacking in my opinion).

Georger, you need to get an emergency appointment with your Psychiatrist.  When was the last time you took a cognitive test?  Before you take another one, you need to brush up on what alligators, elephants, and camels looks like.  And good luck on the test. Give it your best shot!

       
« Last Edit: July 23, 2020, 05:12:11 PM by Robert99 »
 

Offline dudeman17

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3008 on: July 23, 2020, 05:40:22 PM »
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A few posters have been aware I’ve contacted William Rataczak last August. I received a very nice response on Sept 11, 2019. I asked him only one question “ Did you see the lights of Portland/Vancouver on flight 305 ? “.
His direct answer was “ No, we did not see those lights that night; only their glow. The reason is that we were flying in heavy over and undercast skies. “  Since I was born about 25 miles from his present home, we exchanged a number of familiarities.

Hopefully, that puts that point to rest.  Basically, this means that Cooper could not have known exactly (or to within 20 or 30 miles) where he was when he jumped.

Not necessarily, depending on factors. I think that could be way too wide a range. It's said Cooper knew the area from the air. How familiar was he with the area? Was he an experienced jumper (spotting)? How thick/thin were the clouds under them, how defined was the glow? I once spotted a load through clouds from 12500 AGL and all I could see was a familiar freeway offramp that was like 3-5 miles away. We came through the clouds directly over the dz. But I was experienced at spotting and knew the area well. The point is that if Cooper was familiar enough with the area and knew which side of the 'glow' he was on, he might well have had a fairly defined idea of where he was.

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Blevins claim optical physics changes in the cabins of airplanes might apply?

Huh? I've been spotting ground references from flying airplanes for over forty years, and that's a new one on me.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3009 on: July 23, 2020, 07:14:02 PM »
The reference about Blevins surrounds people in the cabin. it's another angle he tries to make up for Kenny being short or the same height as Tina..she would know if he was taller than she was..Tina was 5' 8" which is the same as Kenny..he likes to destroy eye witness testimony by using other crimes. the problem is most crimes last seconds which gives little time for a accurate description..
« Last Edit: July 23, 2020, 07:16:21 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline fcastle866

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3010 on: July 23, 2020, 09:12:38 PM »
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A few posters have been aware I’ve contacted William Rataczak last August. I received a very nice response on Sept 11, 2019. I asked him only one question “ Did you see the lights of Portland/Vancouver on flight 305 ? “.
His direct answer was “ No, we did not see those lights that night; only their glow. The reason is that we were flying in heavy over and undercast skies. “  Since I was born about 25 miles from his present home, we exchanged a number of familiarities.

Hopefully, that puts that point to rest.  Basically, this means that Cooper could not have known exactly (or to within 20 or 30 miles) where he was when he jumped.

No! I think you miss the POINT. Actually two or three or four points. (1) R saw the GLOW of Portland/Vancouver. That is his answer. (2) There is no other skyglow flying south from Seattle to Reno in the same position. Of the roughly 700 mile separation between Reno and Seattle, the skyglow R saw defines a less than 2% area on the whole trip, which can ONLY be Vancouver/Portland. To a person jumping from 10,000 feet on a 700 mile journey that sky glow puts Cooper to within only 14 miles of his target, if Vancouver/Portland was his target. (3) Cooper was able to identify cities from the air - there is direct evidence of that. Cooper knew where he was, from the air. (4) The fact of overcast and cloud layers is - IRRELEVANT. In fact the clouds might have created an advantage so far as identifying large areas of sky glow representing urban arreas, are concerned. !

Likewise, keep track of the fact that your colleague Galen Cook says that Cooper was timing the flight by burning matches in his match book - so Cooper had a clock according to Cook - match burning.

However, you will continue your narrative because you have no choice. That is the position you have put yourself in! So go back to talking about Cooper's 'psychology' and why he could not see sky glow from an airplane in clouds. Search for something in Thermodynamics, like water runs down hill, to bolster your narrative.  West path vs FBI path is irrelevant. It's the place R saw the sky glow that matters. You might concentrate on how Cooper cannot see out of airplanes. Blevins claim optical physics changes in the cabins of airplanes might apply? It's your choice .... or your move. Good luck. Try arts & crafts.   ;D

 :rofl:

Kermit-thanks for that update, really good info.

Georger: I'm in general agreement with your post.  I had not considered the matches before, and this is the first I've heard about it, but it does remind me of a survival manual I read once that showed airmen burning cigarettes, and that at the time it was suggested that a cigarette would burn 7 minutes or so (just lit, not smoked) and that someone could use a cigarette as a rudimentary timer.  I tried it once on a firecracker set up and it worked as a delay.  I can't picture a time though that Cooper had cigarettes lit from Seattle to Portland though.  Maybe.

Robert99-We've "argued" this one before.  I believe leaving Seattle, heading south towards Portland with flaps at 15 degrees and landing gear down, that Cooper would know the general speed of the plane, and he would have had some idea of the winds, and if he was an experienced flyer, then he could have had some general idea of his location aided by the fact that there are no lights south of Tacoma until he gets to Portland.  I was not in the plane, but I have to imagine he knew when he was over the cities.  Does this put him in an exact spot?  No.  Does it mean he knew where he was? No, but it could mean that he thought he knew where he was.  If his plan was to jump just before Portland, then he only needed to have some basic timing and knowledge of the speed/wind, etc.  This was not a long trip.  Air speed vs ground speed with winds figured in is just not a whole lot of variance over 130 miles, so if he knew air speed, he should have had a general idea of where he was.  Even if it was within 20 miles, it may have given him the advantage he needed to start his escape.  At some point in his descent he should have been able to get some idea of his location while under the canopy.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3011 on: July 24, 2020, 12:00:07 AM »
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A few posters have been aware I’ve contacted William Rataczak last August. I received a very nice response on Sept 11, 2019. I asked him only one question “ Did you see the lights of Portland/Vancouver on flight 305 ? “.
His direct answer was “ No, we did not see those lights that night; only their glow. The reason is that we were flying in heavy over and undercast skies. “  Since I was born about 25 miles from his present home, we exchanged a number of familiarities.

Hopefully, that puts that point to rest.  Basically, this means that Cooper could not have known exactly (or to within 20 or 30 miles) where he was when he jumped.

No! I think you miss the POINT. Actually two or three or four points. (1) R saw the GLOW of Portland/Vancouver. That is his answer. (2) There is no other skyglow flying south from Seattle to Reno in the same position. Of the roughly 700 mile separation between Reno and Seattle, the skyglow R saw defines a less than 2% area on the whole trip, which can ONLY be Vancouver/Portland. To a person jumping from 10,000 feet on a 700 mile journey that sky glow puts Cooper to within only 14 miles of his target, if Vancouver/Portland was his target. (3) Cooper was able to identify cities from the air - there is direct evidence of that. Cooper knew where he was, from the air. (4) The fact of overcast and cloud layers is - IRRELEVANT. In fact the clouds might have created an advantage so far as identifying large areas of sky glow representing urban arreas, are concerned. !

Likewise, keep track of the fact that your colleague Galen Cook says that Cooper was timing the flight by burning matches in his match book - so Cooper had a clock according to Cook - match burning.

However, you will continue your narrative because you have no choice. That is the position you have put yourself in! So go back to talking about Cooper's 'psychology' and why he could not see sky glow from an airplane in clouds. Search for something in Thermodynamics, like water runs down hill, to bolster your narrative.  West path vs FBI path is irrelevant. It's the place R saw the sky glow that matters. You might concentrate on how Cooper cannot see out of airplanes. Blevins claim optical physics changes in the cabins of airplanes might apply? It's your choice .... or your move. Good luck. Try arts & crafts.   ;D

 :rofl:

Georger, your reply above is absolute nonsense.  There is "sky glow" from EVER populated area whether it is Wick, Iowa (population 40 people) or Los Angeles, California (population 10 million plus and counting).  A thin cloud layer under the airliner would eliminate the glow from Wick, Iowa but the glow from LA could probably penetrate heavy cloud layers to 30,000+ feet.  Rataczak knew he was looking at the glow from Portland/Vancouver because he was involved in the navigation of the airliner as was Scott and Anderson and they damn well got paid to know where they were.

Burning matches to time the flight distances?  I must say that no one mentioned such a thing to me in my 50 or so piloting years!  In 1971, I was using my Accutron wrist watch to time things.  But there are a few minor problems here.  Cooper didn't know the airliner's indicated airspeed, he didn't know the airliner's true airspeed, and he didn't know the winds aloft speeds or directions.  Consequently, there is NO way that Cooper could have determined the ground speed which is what is important here.  Further, Cooper didn't even know the route that the airliner was flying since he never discussed such a thing with the flight crew.  And if Rataczak hadn't been over ruled by NWA senior management, Cooper would have found himself jumping into the Pacific Ocean (which would have been a fitting climax to the hijacking in my opinion).

Georger, you need to get an emergency appointment with your Psychiatrist.  When was the last time you took a cognitive test?  Before you take another one, you need to brush up on what alligators, elephants, and camels looks like.  And good luck on the test. Give it your best shot!

       

The fact you reach again to a personal attack against me - nullifies every idiotic thing you say. Get rest.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3012 on: July 24, 2020, 12:30:20 AM »
There is no known causal connection between the flight path in 1971 and the money find nine years later in 1980. Himmelsbach tried to forge a connection between the money find and the Washgougal River including an eastward revision of the flight path, but nobody bought that! There is no proven connection between the Cooper money and anything else that is known. That is why most people select the dredging in 1974 as the most likely candidate, because it is the only known outside connection between where the money was found, and anything being dumped on that beach where the money was found. Hydrologists consulted speculate that artifacts from the 1974 dredging could have migrated 'hundreds of yards to the north of their original location', in the direction of flow.

Tom Kaye keeps saying the money was probably deposited on Tina Bar as early as 1971 ... by some scenario Tom has yet to lay out ?     
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3013 on: July 24, 2020, 01:35:11 AM »
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A few posters have been aware I’ve contacted William Rataczak last August. I received a very nice response on Sept 11, 2019. I asked him only one question “ Did you see the lights of Portland/Vancouver on flight 305 ? “.
His direct answer was “ No, we did not see those lights that night; only their glow. The reason is that we were flying in heavy over and undercast skies. “  Since I was born about 25 miles from his present home, we exchanged a number of familiarities.

Hopefully, that puts that point to rest.  Basically, this means that Cooper could not have known exactly (or to within 20 or 30 miles) where he was when he jumped.

No! I think you miss the POINT. Actually two or three or four points. (1) R saw the GLOW of Portland/Vancouver. That is his answer. (2) There is no other skyglow flying south from Seattle to Reno in the same position. Of the roughly 700 mile separation between Reno and Seattle, the skyglow R saw defines a less than 2% area on the whole trip, which can ONLY be Vancouver/Portland. To a person jumping from 10,000 feet on a 700 mile journey that sky glow puts Cooper to within only 14 miles of his target, if Vancouver/Portland was his target. (3) Cooper was able to identify cities from the air - there is direct evidence of that. Cooper knew where he was, from the air. (4) The fact of overcast and cloud layers is - IRRELEVANT. In fact the clouds might have created an advantage so far as identifying large areas of sky glow representing urban arreas, are concerned. !

Likewise, keep track of the fact that your colleague Galen Cook says that Cooper was timing the flight by burning matches in his match book - so Cooper had a clock according to Cook - match burning.

However, you will continue your narrative because you have no choice. That is the position you have put yourself in! So go back to talking about Cooper's 'psychology' and why he could not see sky glow from an airplane in clouds. Search for something in Thermodynamics, like water runs down hill, to bolster your narrative.  West path vs FBI path is irrelevant. It's the place R saw the sky glow that matters. You might concentrate on how Cooper cannot see out of airplanes. Blevins claim optical physics changes in the cabins of airplanes might apply? It's your choice .... or your move. Good luck. Try arts & crafts.   ;D

 :rofl:

Kermit-thanks for that update, really good info.

Georger: I'm in general agreement with your post.  I had not considered the matches before, and this is the first I've heard about it, but it does remind me of a survival manual I read once that showed airmen burning cigarettes, and that at the time it was suggested that a cigarette would burn 7 minutes or so (just lit, not smoked) and that someone could use a cigarette as a rudimentary timer.  I tried it once on a firecracker set up and it worked as a delay.  I can't picture a time though that Cooper had cigarettes lit from Seattle to Portland though.  Maybe.

Robert99-We've "argued" this one before.  I believe leaving Seattle, heading south towards Portland with flaps at 15 degrees and landing gear down, that Cooper would know the general speed of the plane, and he would have had some idea of the winds, and if he was an experienced flyer, then he could have had some general idea of his location aided by the fact that there are no lights south of Tacoma until he gets to Portland.  I was not in the plane, but I have to imagine he knew when he was over the cities.  Does this put him in an exact spot?  No.  Does it mean he knew where he was? No, but it could mean that he thought he knew where he was.  If his plan was to jump just before Portland, then he only needed to have some basic timing and knowledge of the speed/wind, etc.  This was not a long trip.  Air speed vs ground speed with winds figured in is just not a whole lot of variance over 130 miles, so if he knew air speed, he should have had a general idea of where he was.  Even if it was within 20 miles, it may have given him the advantage he needed to start his escape.  At some point in his descent he should have been able to get some idea of his location while under the canopy.

Fcastle866, What is your basis for assuming that Cooper was an "experienced flyer"?  There are plenty of lights south of Tacoma although the glow from them might not have been making it through the several cloud layers and overcast that were under the airliner that night.

Based on the information that was available to Cooper, what is your estimate of the true airspeed, winds aloft speed and direction, and ground speed of the airliner, plus the flight path of the airliner?

If under canopy, I doubt if Cooper could see much of anything until he was within a few hundred feet of the ground.  It really was a "dark and stormy night".

 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3014 on: July 24, 2020, 01:47:04 AM »
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A few posters have been aware I’ve contacted William Rataczak last August. I received a very nice response on Sept 11, 2019. I asked him only one question “ Did you see the lights of Portland/Vancouver on flight 305 ? “.
His direct answer was “ No, we did not see those lights that night; only their glow. The reason is that we were flying in heavy over and undercast skies. “  Since I was born about 25 miles from his present home, we exchanged a number of familiarities.

Hopefully, that puts that point to rest.  Basically, this means that Cooper could not have known exactly (or to within 20 or 30 miles) where he was when he jumped.

Not necessarily, depending on factors. I think that could be way too wide a range. It's said Cooper knew the area from the air. How familiar was he with the area? Was he an experienced jumper (spotting)? How thick/thin were the clouds under them, how defined was the glow? I once spotted a load through clouds from 12500 AGL and all I could see was a familiar freeway offramp that was like 3-5 miles away. We came through the clouds directly over the dz. But I was experienced at spotting and knew the area well. The point is that if Cooper was familiar enough with the area and knew which side of the 'glow' he was on, he might well have had a fairly defined idea of where he was.

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Blevins claim optical physics changes in the cabins of airplanes might apply?

Huh? I've been spotting ground references from flying airplanes for over forty years, and that's a new one on me.

Did you spot that 12,500 foot jump through an overcast and several cloud layers on a dark and rainy night?  As quoted by Kermit, Rataczak said that they could only see the glow of the light through the clouds and could not see the lights themselves.

All indications of where Cooper wanted to jump is that he wanted to do so soon after takeoff and just south of Seattle.