Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 204913 times)

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2925 on: March 23, 2020, 03:01:24 PM »
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Like it or not, somebody F'd up.

Maybe you!  :congrats:

Maybe, just maybe ... there is no "unredacted" copy of the flight comms, maybe there never was such a document. Maybe such a document was never made from the flight comm tapes? Maybe due to other documents and communications, the need for a socalled 'unredacted' copy of the flight comms never came up!?  Has anyone bothered to think of that?  :o
« Last Edit: March 23, 2020, 03:59:34 PM by georger »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2926 on: March 23, 2020, 04:02:22 PM »
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Like it or not, somebody F'd up.

Maybe you!  :congrats:

Maybe, just maybe ... there is no "unredacted" copy of the flight comms, maybe there never was such a document. Maybe such a document was never made from the flight comm tapes? Has anyone bothered to think of that?  :o

Contrary to what this poster claims, a complete "unredacted" copy of the entire communications between Air Traffic Control and the hijacked airliner would be routinely made and would be permanently retained by the FAA and the FBI.  This means that both the FAA and the FBI have copies of those complete communication transcripts in their files today.  But it will take someone like Mark Zaid and a court order to pry them loose.  Three efforts through  the US House of Representatives FBI office were unsuccessful.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2927 on: March 23, 2020, 04:09:06 PM »
Key words are: would be routinely made

I agree! It sounds so simple - straightforward.  Maybe the real secret is: it was never made for some reason?  That is one of the options!  P=N!  (N factorial)

[In mathematics, the factorial of a positive integer n, denoted by n!, is the product of all positive integers less than or equal to n: For example, The value of 0! is set at 1, according to the convention for an empty product.]

Claims and Obsessive Insistence do not guarantee Facts! A lot of things are "routine" in a normal world, but not necessarily factual. There ought to be a catfish that is the size of an elephant - where is it!?     

Does anyone know how the copy of the flight comms transcript we do have, came to the public through the Post Intelligencer? Who released that document to the PI? ... was it the PI that REDACTED an original document?  Who had that document to release it to the PI? Was it someone in the FBI?   ;)

*Who at the PI received the flight comm transcript from somebody in the FBI? When did that happen. Its just one of the basic fundamental questions that Cooper sleuths and Geoffrey Gray in particular failed to even address, so far as I know! It's a little like asking: Who was Columbus' mother!   :o 

IS THERE ANY FACTUAL PROOF THAT AN UNREDACTED COPY OF THE PI TRANSCRIPT EVEN EXISTS?
« Last Edit: March 23, 2020, 04:36:32 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2928 on: March 23, 2020, 04:36:55 PM »
Ammerman said the dots represent other flight noise...we have seen "redacted" transcripts before...below is one.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2929 on: March 23, 2020, 05:20:30 PM »
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Ammerman said the dots represent other flight noise...we have seen "redacted" transcripts before...below is one.

The dots in the ATC radio transcripts represent redactions regardless of what Ammerman said.  "Flight noise" over a radio link that doesn't have a microphone keyed?  There is this bridge in Brooklyn that is available for sale and I can get it for you cheap.  Just send me a package containing $1,000,000 in unmarked $20 bills and I will handle it from there.

As I have repeatedly stressed over the last 10 years, if you want to see what the Seattle ATC radio transcripts should look like, then just take a look at the Oakland ATC radio transcripts.  I don't believe there is a single redaction in the Oakland ATC or Reno Tower radio transcripts.

There doesn't appear to be any "flight noise" in the ARINC transcripts.  And the Air Traffic Control radio capabilities are vastly superior to the ARINC capabilities.

It is beyond silly for some people on this site to claim that the Seattle ATC transcripts are complete, when in reality they just trying to remove evidence that does not support their own claims about the flight path.  In making these false claims, they are just adding more baloney to the Cooper matter.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2020, 05:25:38 PM by Robert99 »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2930 on: March 24, 2020, 12:48:04 AM »
In the first place, nobody has said or claimed the 'Seattle ATC transcripts are complete'!   Stop putting words in people's mouths that dont exist either!  :nono:

Maybe the alleged missing communications are in some other document or tapes? The critical period is presumably 8:12 pm to 8:20 pm. We have the following:

8:12 pm    t1
305:   Getting some oscillations in the cabin. Must be doing something with
 the air stairs.
MSP:      Roger.

8:13.14     305      Center? 405 (unintel) 20.9 10,000.      
SEAR5   Northwest 305 ident

8:15.52     SEAR5   Northwest 305, the Portland uh altimeter 3003.
305   0 0 3

*[ 5 min BLANK PERIOD IN COMMS ?  NO MENTION OF COOPER BAILOUT]

8:20 pm    t1
305:          Called.
MSP:      Go to 131.8 (phone patch to company on that freq.)
SEADD:   He (?) is already on that frequency.
MSP:      Roger. We are on the phone and will be talking to him shortly.
SEADD:   Roger.

At 8:20 305 is on the phone talking to "him" on some other frequency?  There are no comms with ATC during this period.  Why or how would non-existent communications with ATC be included in a Transcript if they didn't even occur? Maybe those comms (people want) are on some other tape and in some other document, or they never existed in the first place with ATC? And the socalled unredacted ATC transcript does not exist because it never existed?   

So far after all these years of looking-demanding, not one shred of hard evidence has ever surfaced that an 'unredacted' Transcript even exists, or ever existed except as a figment in some people's minds!  ::)

*If people recall, we asked NW Historian Bruce Kit if he had ever seen a flight comm transcript with "HIM" at 8:20. Bruce replied, 'No but I sure would like to!' 
« Last Edit: March 24, 2020, 01:09:26 AM by georger »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2931 on: March 24, 2020, 02:06:11 AM »
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In the first place, nobody has said or claimed the 'Seattle ATC transcripts are complete'!   Stop putting words in people's mouths that dont exist either!  :nono:

Maybe the alleged missing communications are in some other document or tapes? The critical period is presumably 8:12 pm to 8:20 pm. We have the following:

8:12 pm    t1
305:   Getting some oscillations in the cabin. Must be doing something with
 the air stairs.
MSP:      Roger.

8:13.14     305      Center? 405 (unintel) 20.9 10,000.      
SEAR5   Northwest 305 ident

8:15.52     SEAR5   Northwest 305, the Portland uh altimeter 3003.
305   0 0 3

*[ 5 min BLANK PERIOD IN COMMS ?  NO MENTION OF COOPER BAILOUT]

8:20 pm    t1
305:          Called.
MSP:      Go to 131.8 (phone patch to company on that freq.)
SEADD:   He (?) is already on that frequency.
MSP:      Roger. We are on the phone and will be talking to him shortly.
SEADD:   Roger.

At 8:20 305 is on the phone talking to "him" on some other frequency?  There are no comms with ATC during this period.  Why or how would non-existent communications with ATC be included in a Transcript if they didn't even occur? Maybe those comms (people want) are on some other tape and in some other document, or they never existed in the first place with ATC? And the socalled unredacted ATC transcript does not exist because it never existed?   

So far after all these years of looking-demanding, not one shred of hard evidence has ever surfaced that an 'unredacted' Transcript even exists, or ever existed except as a figment in some people's minds!  ::)

*If people recall, we asked NW Historian Bruce Kit if he had ever seen a flight comm transcript with "HIM" at 8:20. Bruce replied, 'No but I sure would like to!'

There seems to be some confusion by the above poster as to what is a Seattle Air Traffic Control transcript and what is transmitted over the ARINC radio, which included a phone patch, and teletype system and has nothing whatsoever to do with the Seattle Air Traffic Control system.

Only the 8:13:14 and 8:15:52 transmissions above are from the Seattle Air Traffic Control transcripts.  The remainder are from the ARINC radio phone patch and teletype system.

The Seattle ATC radio transcripts have 19 redactions indicated.  The ARINC transcripts are also incomplete according to a study of them done by Fred Poynter and his staff at the WSHM.  This has been discussed at length previously on this site.

The hijacked airliner would have had at least two operating radio transrecivers and could have been talking to both the Seattle ATC controllers and NWA personnel in Minneapolis at the same time.

Air Traffic Control and ARINC are two entirely separate agencies. 
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2932 on: March 24, 2020, 02:40:33 PM »
Where is the Manual for Knowing Redactions ? 

I want to know when a redaction has been made.

I want to know how to detect a redacted document - what should I look for?

Can I fill in a redaction that has been made? Is there a manual for doing that?

In the whole history of the Cooper case why hasn't some 'informant' leaked the fact (with documentation) that the PI Transcript is redacted, and some unredacted transcript exists somewhere? Should somebody turn this over to Wiki Leaks?             .......  how come its taken years to try to document all of this?  :offtopicman: 

Who were the Cooper censors who redacted the PI Transcript, or any other transcript? Names pleaze.

WHY IS ANYONE HAVING TO "BEG" FOR THIS!  :conspiracy:
« Last Edit: March 24, 2020, 02:57:41 PM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2933 on: March 24, 2020, 02:47:32 PM »
Who gave the PI Transcript to the PI?  Name pleaze.

Who wrote or prepared the PI Transcript?  Name pleaze.

Who in the whole "shamoli" of the Cooper case would be able to document redactions being made to the PI Transcript, or any other transcript? Did anyone including WSHM ever document redaction with a name of redactor? 

I want to see these Redactions on the Toast!   8)   
« Last Edit: March 24, 2020, 03:35:38 PM by georger »
 

Offline Unsurelock

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2934 on: March 24, 2020, 10:21:50 PM »
Hi, All.

I've asked this before here, but can someone tell me the goal of, and interest in, the flight path investigation? Usually, "he went thattaway" is a time-sensitive statement. Just watch an episode of The First 48 and you'll see. So the flight path is not about trying to see where Cooper may have landed and gone off on foot, because he would have been gone after a matter of days if not hours.

If we're looking for a body or a parachute, again, I'll say it's a time-sensitive situation as well. They found bodies during the Cooper search. They found the placard and the money in the area within that first decade, and nothing since. Given enough time, say five decades, treasure hunters and everyday citizens will unearth everything in a given area, so we can't reasonably be holding out for a skeleton and briefcase.

If we're trying to prove that the plane was off-course to the west to explain the money being on Tena Bar, the variables such as chute opening, chute not opening, survival vs death, all forms of human intervention etc., still demonstrates nothing about Cooper's fate or identity, just the money. And in all that time, the entire area has been scrutinized by everyone.

What are the goals? Or is this just fun to talk about? What does nailing down the flight path accomplish? Please be detailed.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2935 on: March 24, 2020, 10:46:33 PM »
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Hi, All.

I've asked this before here, but can someone tell me the goal of, and interest in, the flight path investigation? Usually, "he went thattaway" is a time-sensitive statement. Just watch an episode of The First 48 and you'll see. So the flight path is not about trying to see where Cooper may have landed and gone off on foot, because he would have been gone after a matter of days if not hours.

If we're looking for a body or a parachute, again, I'll say it's a time-sensitive situation as well. They found bodies during the Cooper search. They found the placard and the money in the area within that first decade, and nothing since. Given enough time, say five decades, treasure hunters and everyday citizens will unearth everything in a given area, so we can't reasonably be holding out for a skeleton and briefcase.

If we're trying to prove that the plane was off-course to the west to explain the money being on Tena Bar, the variables such as chute opening, chute not opening, survival vs death, all forms of human intervention etc., still demonstrates nothing about Cooper's fate or identity, just the money. And in all that time, the entire area has been scrutinized by everyone.

What are the goals? Or is this just fun to talk about? What does nailing down the flight path accomplish? Please be detailed.

Unsurelock,

Which planet(s) have you been on for the last 50 years?  Please be specific.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2936 on: March 24, 2020, 11:37:48 PM »
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Hi, All.

I've asked this before here, but can someone tell me the goal of, and interest in, the flight path investigation? Usually, "he went thattaway" is a time-sensitive statement. Just watch an episode of The First 48 and you'll see. So the flight path is not about trying to see where Cooper may have landed and gone off on foot, because he would have been gone after a matter of days if not hours.

If we're looking for a body or a parachute, again, I'll say it's a time-sensitive situation as well. They found bodies during the Cooper search. They found the placard and the money in the area within that first decade, and nothing since. Given enough time, say five decades, treasure hunters and everyday citizens will unearth everything in a given area, so we can't reasonably be holding out for a skeleton and briefcase.

If we're trying to prove that the plane was off-course to the west to explain the money being on Tena Bar, the variables such as chute opening, chute not opening, survival vs death, all forms of human intervention etc., still demonstrates nothing about Cooper's fate or identity, just the money. And in all that time, the entire area has been scrutinized by everyone.

What are the goals? Or is this just fun to talk about? What does nailing down the flight path accomplish? Please be detailed.

This is very funny!   :rofl: :bravo: :congrats:      Sleep well.   :o
« Last Edit: March 24, 2020, 11:39:33 PM by georger »
 

Offline Unsurelock

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2937 on: March 25, 2020, 03:58:48 AM »
You two speechless heroes have just demonstrated perfectly that you have dedicated years to a snipe hunt with no hope of gaining anything from this line of inquiry.  :bravo:

Still inviting answers.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2938 on: March 25, 2020, 05:00:49 AM »
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You two speechless heroes have just demonstrated perfectly that you have dedicated years to a snipe hunt with no hope of gaining anything from this line of inquiry.  :bravo:

Still inviting answers.

Ok poster. Go back to 2005-08 and start reading every post at DZ; in other words read the thread. Or, go to Google and find a synopsis of the DB Cooper hijacking and read it. Like this:   You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login 

 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2939 on: March 25, 2020, 10:52:04 AM »
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Hi, All.

I've asked this before here, but can someone tell me the goal of, and interest in, the flight path investigation? Usually, "he went thattaway" is a time-sensitive statement. Just watch an episode of The First 48 and you'll see. So the flight path is not about trying to see where Cooper may have landed and gone off on foot, because he would have been gone after a matter of days if not hours.

If we're looking for a body or a parachute, again, I'll say it's a time-sensitive situation as well. They found bodies during the Cooper search. They found the placard and the money in the area within that first decade, and nothing since. Given enough time, say five decades, treasure hunters and everyday citizens will unearth everything in a given area, so we can't reasonably be holding out for a skeleton and briefcase.

If we're trying to prove that the plane was off-course to the west to explain the money being on Tena Bar, the variables such as chute opening, chute not opening, survival vs death, all forms of human intervention etc., still demonstrates nothing about Cooper's fate or identity, just the money. And in all that time, the entire area has been scrutinized by everyone.

What are the goals? Or is this just fun to talk about? What does nailing down the flight path accomplish? Please be detailed.

I've stated that without knowing the correct flight path it is impossible to determine the correct landing zone. Furthermore, if we can determine the landing zone we are well positioned to answer some basic questions if not solve the entire mystery.

Why do I say this?

First, considering the basic questions, if we can accurately identify where DBC landed it can tell us how the money arrived at Tena Bar and by extension whether DBC survived.

Second, considering solving the entire mystery, it is very reasonable to assume that the two parachutes DBC jumped with--if not the attache' case and money--are still out there yet-to-be found. Finding any of these items may well help determine DBC's identity. For example, if we find the attache' case we could likely identify when and where it was purchased (within a certain range). Finding the parachutes may provide some additional clues too.

Also, finding the parachutes or attache' case--not to mention a body--would also enable us to measure the veracity of the FBI's assumptions in some areas. Specifically, if we find DBC's parachutes near the Western Flight Path that would put a fork in the FBI Flight Path--apparently finding the money on Tena Bar was not sufficient to do the same.

You've hit upon an important point, which is to say that one would think if anything was still out there that it would have been found. After all, the area has been lived in, hunted and clear cut for a mighty long time. Considering this, the mere fact that nothing has been found is a clue in-and-of-itself by my way of thinking. It leads me to conclude that the items were either stashed underwater or in a place like the Ridgefield National Wildlife Refuge (not coincidentally along the Western Flight Path).

Beyond all of this, it's just cool. Indeed, the mystery is 50% figuring out what actually happened, and 50% figuring out who the guy was.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2020, 11:01:00 AM by EU »
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