Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 735611 times)

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2655 on: August 17, 2019, 07:12:21 PM »
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Shutter, I believe you mentioned that the FBI Flight Path (Air Force) was handed to the FBI on November 26th. How did they know where to search on November 25th without a flight path?


Possibly the pilots, Air Force,radio transcripts/audio. the FDR, Portland radar reports, the fact of NWO monitoring the flight. they might of received the path prior to the FBI...I suspect they would be working on the LZ that evening. the last LZ map was made on 1-13-72 after the testing of the oscillation and pressure bump.

when someone is missing do we need a map to start or an area?

I found two separate dates surrounding the map. one on 11-26-71 and another 12-23-71 there is several LZ maps and progress as time passes with new information. even if the FDR didn't have a clock a clear straight path should of been noticed under the microscope while viewing the foil.

You guys seem to act as if it was impossible to figure out the basic area's without a map?

The way the game works is you take the basic information and plot it on a map.  The people on the ground then know where to look.  Just simple statements such as "He may have landed 10 miles east of Podunk Mountain, or then maybe he didn't." won't get the job done.  The searchers could have had a more productive evening by just getting a good nights sleep.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2019, 07:13:26 PM by Robert99 »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2656 on: August 17, 2019, 07:15:00 PM »
Someone just sent me this...it showed in my email blurry...
« Last Edit: August 17, 2019, 07:18:00 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2657 on: August 17, 2019, 07:16:33 PM »
So, are you criticizing them for not having the map ready or jumping the gun?
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2658 on: August 17, 2019, 07:23:02 PM »
The way the game works.

To post


The flight path info we have leaves a lot to be desired in terms of  precision and accuracy, not to mention the time dimension. 

The flight path coordinates were calculated from data tape recorded at the McChord Air Defense Command Direction Venter (DC).  The calculation and the plotting were almost certainly done by the McChord detachment of the 84th Radar Evaluation Squadron (RADES).   It was their job to do such analyses, and the DC were just users of the system.

The detachment is still there.  They might still have the source data or a listing of coordinates for intermediate times, or they may have transferred it to their headquarters (at Hill AFB if I remember right). The FAA should have a copy. If a copy was ever given to the FBI then they have a copy.

Even if all we could find is a listing of coordinates for intermediate times, we could gain some accuracy on the flight path.  We could more precisely identify places where latitude and longitude crossed the halfway points between whole minutes of latitude and longitude.  If we could get the data that was recorded we could even calculate to precision better than 1 minute lat/lon.

I wonder if W and S know anything about the RADES, but it's very unlikely they would because they were in airlift, not homeland air defense.

R99 misses something extremely important regarding the FBI flightpath plot because he is oblivious to how it came about.   The data was hand plotted, probably by the same people who computed the coordinates.  That group did this kind of thing probably once a week, sometimes for incidents but mostly for system QA and change evaluations.  Their usual method was to calculate coordinates using taped data from a system that tracked probably hundreds of flights per day just in the Washington-Oregon area alone.  They tracked every commercial flight.  Every flight with a transponder. Basically everything except small private planes at low altitudes.  Plus, every radar involved in this tracking was also constantly tracking its own calibration target.

The flightpath was produced by experts.  Within the limits of its precision, it is right. Unfortunately, the precision is only one minute of latitude and longitude. And, the times associated with the plotted points may be off by a minute. AND, it appears we don't know accurately WHEN Coop jumped, except that the NWA and USAF people who did the '72 searchzone map thought (with benefit of the "pressure bump" signature on the flight data recorder) that he jumped at about 19 seconds before 8:11.

PS:  Your interviews with Cliff are good. I think he did a commendable job given everything going on at the time. I believe his notation about 305 staying within V23 is entirely accurate. I am sure the people with an agenda will try to get some concession from him. 

The T33 intercept north of the river is crucial in two aspects. Cliff confirms 305 did not leave V23 in the period he was talking to our T33. It also confirms the angle of descent of 305 from BTG. Those two facts alone confirm Cliff was keeping 305 within V23. There is no chance 305 passed over the Fazio property where the money was found. I’m sorry but I cant help with that. The timeline and when the oscillations and bump were actually called in and to whom, is key.   
____________________ USAF retired.

 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2659 on: August 17, 2019, 07:31:31 PM »
Here is a better copy...
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2660 on: August 17, 2019, 07:53:14 PM »
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Here is a better copy...

Where is Crawford, WA or Highway I-S?
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2661 on: August 17, 2019, 08:12:19 PM »
Not sure about the I-S. makes no sense. it's about 5 miles east of I-5.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2662 on: August 17, 2019, 08:21:26 PM »
We have a criminal running around with a possible explosive. waiting on a map doesn't appear to be the logical thing to do. the clock is ticking for escape. he has hours on them and appears to of as I have always said, caught them with there pants down. it appears they were working on it as I mentioned previously in locating a possible LZ.

I guess the question would be is how the next day search area is close to the Air Force map position? they don't show a jump time. only a path. one that's near the area in question?
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2663 on: August 17, 2019, 08:34:56 PM »
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Here is a better copy...

A few observations regarding the document.

1) This is from Thanksgiving Day, therefore the flight path had not yet been plotted. I assume it was an initial dropzone roughly crafted.

2) It appears that it is describing a section of centerline V23. This would make sense inasmuch as they would assume the jet was flying V23.

3) No wind drift was factored into a search area. Indeed, if DBC no pulled there would not be much of a drift. Moreover, they probably didn't have much in terms of wind data at that time.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2019, 08:36:00 PM by EU »
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2664 on: August 17, 2019, 08:46:16 PM »
? really. no wind data from aviation stand points. accurate weather is KEY to aviation. again, NWO is in this game and knows what is needed. weather reports are transmitted so up to date weather can be received at any given time..
« Last Edit: August 17, 2019, 08:49:15 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2665 on: August 17, 2019, 08:50:32 PM »
Whatever. The document obviously doesn't mention looking to the NE or any another direction relative to the descent line.

The larger point is that this probably answers how the initial search area was devised--again with no Air Force flight path in hand.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2666 on: August 17, 2019, 08:56:00 PM »
Again, you guys are shooting them in the heart for not having a map ready in less than 12 hours? it's not 2019 where things can be brought forward in seconds to minutes? if this was a kid missing from a dive would you feel good telling the parents you have information on a possible area but have to wait on a map?

I don't get this at all...they were in the same area as the map and you scold them for trying prior to the map? how much more can we downplay events?
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2667 on: August 17, 2019, 08:56:52 PM »
By the way, how does the lumbering 305 make the turn around PDX?
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2668 on: August 17, 2019, 08:59:37 PM »
I don't for see any good research in this with you guys. it's one thing after another...

Everyone is wrong and you guys are right....with that I'm out...
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2669 on: August 17, 2019, 09:00:58 PM »
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Again, you guys are shooting them in the heart for not having a map ready in less than 12 hours? it's not 2019 where things can be brought forward in seconds to minutes? if this was a kid missing from a dive would you feel good telling the parents you have information on a possible area but have to wait on a map?

I don't get this at all...they were in the same area as the map and you scold them for trying prior to the map? how much more can we downplay events?

Let me clear because I'm tired of being told what I'm doing.

YOU. ARE. WRONG.

I am not complaining about anything. I was simply asking a question. That's it.

This is getting very frustrating. Am I not allowed to ask a question without being accused of having an agenda by someone?
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK