Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 143220 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1785 on: April 15, 2019, 06:30:37 PM »
It appears the people who have no sides to this disagree with the theory. I haven't found one yet to agree. still looking though. Georger seems to be running into the same wall.
 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1786 on: April 15, 2019, 06:55:05 PM »
If you look at flight path theories, I think R99 still has the best yet. it's straight forward. no swimming across the river or hiding things under a few branches, walking up/down the beach etc. it's simple and to the point. I may not agree with all the points but it has substance/meaning. no speculation.
 
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Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1787 on: April 15, 2019, 07:07:59 PM »
Well I certainly agree that I am the only person I'm aware of that has approached this thing in the manner I have approached it as spelled out by my 8:12 Arc Theory.

Furthermore, apparently I'm the only person who thinks the placard find location and the Tena Bar money find spot are critical in determining what likely happened--i.e., where the jet flew, where DBC jumped, where DBC landed, how DBC got out of the area, and how the three packets of twenties ended up on Tena Bar.

I realize I'm on an island here. Nonetheless, I stand by my analysis and theory.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1788 on: April 15, 2019, 07:10:55 PM »
That's fine. I'm not here to change anyone's mind. I'm here to find answers..answers change minds. lets hope I don't have to send a life raft over....
« Last Edit: April 15, 2019, 07:32:42 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1789 on: April 15, 2019, 07:46:04 PM »
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That's fine. I'm not here to change anyone's mind. I'm here to find answers..answers change minds. lets hope I don't have to send a life raft over....

Not to worry, the Bachelor Island Slough is about 18 inches deep.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1790 on: April 15, 2019, 08:16:40 PM »
[quote author=EU link=topic=5.msg29679#msg29679 date=155536967

Furthermore, apparently I'm the only person who thinks the placard find location and the Tena Bar money find spot are critical in determining what likely happened--i.e., where the jet flew, where DBC jumped, where DBC landed, how DBC got out of the area, and how the three packets of twenties ended up on Tena Bar.

I realize I'm on an island here. Nonetheless, I stand by my analysis and theory.
[/quote]

Eric, you are not as isolated as you suggest.  Actually, a basketball dropped from 10,000 feet would probably be the most predictable object of all.  Just stay tuned for a few more days.
 
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Offline Kermit

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1791 on: April 16, 2019, 01:40:07 PM »
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I can see that the flight path discussion is a very controversial one. That makes perfect sense.

To be clear, I did not come up with the idea of a western path. That said, to the best of my knowledge there have only been three of us who have strongly advocated such a path--which by definition means the FBI flight path (Air Force) is wrong.

1] Tosaw factored in Tena Bar and considered that nothing had been found along the FBI flight path to arrive at a western path.

2] R99 factored in Tena Bar, the correlation between Maylay and Canby, the not-likely circuitous FBI path near Portland, the flow of the Columbia River near Tena Bar, and the placard to some degree to arrive at a western path.

3] I put a lot of weight on both Tena Bar and the placard find, and also considered the 8:12 jump time, the role of the Columbia River in all of this, the fact that nothing has been found along the FBI flight path, the "doesn't make sense" circuitous FBI path near Portland, and the fact that the FBI had erred previously via the Palmer Report, to arrive at what I call the 8:12 Arc Theory which points to a western flight path.

All of this said, Tosaw and R99 both believe DBC no-pulled. I believe Tosaw said he ended up in the river, and R99 believes he ended up on Caterpillar Island. I, on the other hand, believe DBC survived and landed in the Ridgefield National Wildlife Refuge.

I do not consider Tosaw, R99 or myself crackpots or drawn to conspiracies. I think the methodology that each of us has applied to arrive at a western path makes sense.

On the other hand, from what I can tell Shutter is the strongest--at least most vocal--advocate for the FBI path. This of course is based upon the Air Force's capabilities and the testimony of R2 in Seattle. That makes sense, is compelling and by default should be the accepted flight path.

However, Tosaw, R99 and I have, for reasons explained above, concluded that the default (Air Force) path must be wrong.

Im not sure Tosaw did subscribe to a 'western' fp vs the FBI fp.

What did Tosaw say, specifically ... and why did he say it ?

Do you require that 305 must be outside the 4 mile western side of V23 in order to qualify as a 'western flight path' ?

I’ve just finished reading Tosaw’s book. This is now my 4 th book regarding Cooper. Actually perhaps fifth if I count the awesome fiction book written by William Sullivan “ D B COOPER’s Parachute “.
Tosaw’s book is actually very short with a lot of photos. However it’s very clear that he thought Cooper landed in the Columbia River and drowned. It’s also apparent that he was convinced the entire loot went with him and that the money found at Tina Bar was via dredge ! He talked to all the flight crew and worked with Rataczak quite a bit as he thanks him for helping him in writing this book. With his numerous photos I was able to clearly note that Tosaw actually had no concrete idea exactly where the flight plan was or any real confidence where Cooper bailed. There is a photo on page 123 of him on Blake Payne’s 27 foot boat dragging the Columbia River NEAR the I 5 Bridge. The
I 5 Bridge as well as the Railroad Bridge crosses the Columbia at Hayden Island which is about 8 miles upriver of Tina Bar ! Also then again there are notations of him dragging the Columbia River in front of Tina Bar and waving to Tipper as they make their turn on the river ! Tipper is one of several fisherman that was present on the day the
Ingram’s found the money on Tina Bar. It comes as no surprise to me that Tosaw came up with Zilch ! The Mighty Columbia is a huge and wide River and it appears his search area was close to a 8 mile stretch of a mile wide River.
All this comes also in light of the fact he was working closely with the actual Co-Pilot ! Good Luck trying to learn much from reading his book. Like everyone else, he makes a lot of unproven assumptions !
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1792 on: April 16, 2019, 01:46:55 PM »
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[quote author=EU link=topic=5.msg29679#msg29679 date=155536967

Furthermore, apparently I'm the only person who thinks the placard find location and the Tena Bar money find spot are critical in determining what likely happened--i.e., where the jet flew, where DBC jumped, where DBC landed, how DBC got out of the area, and how the three packets of twenties ended up on Tena Bar.

I realize I'm on an island here. Nonetheless, I stand by my analysis and theory.

MY POST -
What likely happened vs. what did happen.

The issue is the FBI fp vs. some alleged fp: that 305 flew west of V23 a straight line btwn Toledo and Canby and there is no testimony that happened.

R2 was explicit. He waited until 305 had made its turn on the west side of Portland, in order for him to line up 305 and the T33 for a rendezvous south of Portland near Lake Oswego. He waited until 305 had made its turn on the west side of Portland. In fact he said he turned away from his screen while waiting for 305 to complete its turn ...

With a straight line fp there is no turn at Portland!

Placard is irrelevant.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2019, 01:51:38 PM by georger »
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1793 on: April 16, 2019, 01:51:21 PM »
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MY POST -
What likely happened vs. what did happen.

The issue is the FBI fp vs. some alleged fp: that 305 flew west of V23 a straight line btwn Toledo and Canby and there is no testimony that happened.

R2 was explicit. He waited until 305 had made its turn on the west side of Portland, in order for him to line up 305 and the T33 for a rendezvous south of Portland near Lake Oswego. He waited until 305 had made its turn on the west side of Portland.

With a straight line fp there is no turn at Portland!

Here is the problem: The FBI flight path DOES NOT show the jet flying west of Portland. In fact, it makes a turn around PDX and flies EAST of downtown Portland.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1794 on: April 16, 2019, 01:52:06 PM »
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MY POST -
What likely happened vs. what did happen.

The issue is the FBI fp vs. some alleged fp: that 305 flew west of V23 a straight line btwn Toledo and Canby and there is no testimony that happened.

R2 was explicit. He waited until 305 had made its turn on the west side of Portland, in order for him to line up 305 and the T33 for a rendezvous south of Portland near Lake Oswego. He waited until 305 had made its turn on the west side of Portland.

With a straight line fp there is no turn at Portland!

Here is the problem: The FBI flight path DOES NOT show the jet flying west of Portland. In fact, it makes a turn around PDX and flies EAST of downtown Portland.

blah bl;ah bl;ah b;ah b;ah .............................................. this has become very annoying and pointless!
« Last Edit: April 16, 2019, 01:57:26 PM by georger »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1795 on: April 16, 2019, 03:40:22 PM »
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MY POST -
What likely happened vs. what did happen.

The issue is the FBI fp vs. some alleged fp: that 305 flew west of V23 a straight line btwn Toledo and Canby and there is no testimony that happened.

R2 was explicit. He waited until 305 had made its turn on the west side of Portland, in order for him to line up 305 and the T33 for a rendezvous south of Portland near Lake Oswego. He waited until 305 had made its turn on the west side of Portland.

With a straight line fp there is no turn at Portland!

Here is the problem: The FBI flight path DOES NOT show the jet flying west of Portland. In fact, it makes a turn around PDX and flies EAST of downtown Portland.

blah bl;ah bl;ah b;ah b;ah .............................................. this has become very annoying and pointless!

Georger, by your own statements in an e-mail to me several years ago, FBI Agent Himmelsbach was in an Army helicopter in an attempt to intercept the airliner.  I have no idea what they would have done if they had managed to intercept it, but they didn't even see it above the overcast.

But you specifically wrote that the helicopter stayed on the west side of Portland and even flew up to the Woodland area.  In his book, Himmelsbach stated that he saw his neighborhood on the west side of Portland.  The T-33, which had taken off from Portland International and flown west, stayed on the west side of Portland while trying to intercept the airliner.

There is absolutely nothing to suggest that the airliner was actually over Portland or on the east side of Portland.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1796 on: April 16, 2019, 11:25:03 PM »
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MY POST -
What likely happened vs. what did happen.

The issue is the FBI fp vs. some alleged fp: that 305 flew west of V23 a straight line btwn Toledo and Canby and there is no testimony that happened.

R2 was explicit. He waited until 305 had made its turn on the west side of Portland, in order for him to line up 305 and the T33 for a rendezvous south of Portland near Lake Oswego. He waited until 305 had made its turn on the west side of Portland.

With a straight line fp there is no turn at Portland!

Here is the problem: The FBI flight path DOES NOT show the jet flying west of Portland. In fact, it makes a turn around PDX and flies EAST of downtown Portland.

blah bl;ah bl;ah b;ah b;ah .............................................. this has become very annoying and pointless!

Georger, by your own statements in an e-mail to me several years ago, FBI Agent Himmelsbach was in an Army helicopter in an attempt to intercept the airliner.  I have no idea what they would have done if they had managed to intercept it, but they didn't even see it above the overcast.

But you specifically wrote that the helicopter stayed on the west side of Portland and even flew up to the Woodland area.  In his book, Himmelsbach stated that he saw his neighborhood on the west side of Portland.  The T-33, which had taken off from Portland International and flown west, stayed on the west side of Portland while trying to intercept the airliner.

There is absolutely nothing to suggest that the airliner was actually over Portland or on the east side of Portland.

So? I dont understand your point. Himms was acting on the info he had at the time - who knows where that info came from. What has this got to do with the placard and moving the flight path to Tina Bar ....
« Last Edit: April 17, 2019, 12:27:35 AM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1797 on: April 16, 2019, 11:35:55 PM »
I guess it depends on what is considered west or the west side of Portland. in 1971 not much was around the area except downtown Portland. north of that had housing but the majority was east.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1798 on: April 17, 2019, 12:37:49 AM »
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I guess it depends on what is considered west or the west side of Portland. in 1971 not much was around the area except downtown Portland. north of that had housing but the majority was east.

These distinctions people are making btwn west of Portland west side of Portland, west end of PDX, downtown Portland  ...  none of these positions reflect (or prove) a straight line route from Toledo to Canby (over Tina Bar) which is what R99 and Ulis want. The FBI flight path and all testimony to date reflect the plane flying within V23 as it turned and went by Portland. There is nothing about passing Portland that suggests a straight line flight between Toledo & Canby (over Tina Bar). All of the witchcraft about the placard notwithstanding!   
« Last Edit: April 17, 2019, 12:39:25 AM by georger »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1799 on: April 17, 2019, 01:05:57 AM »
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I guess it depends on what is considered west or the west side of Portland. in 1971 not much was around the area except downtown Portland. north of that had housing but the majority was east.

These distinctions people are making btwn west of Portland west side of Portland, west end of PDX, downtown Portland  ...  none of these positions reflect (or prove) a straight line route from Toledo to Canby (over Tina Bar) which is what R99 and Ulis want. The FBI flight path and all testimony to date reflect the plane flying within V23 as it turned and went by Portland. There is nothing about passing Portland that suggests a straight line flight between Toledo & Canby (over Tina Bar). All of the witchcraft about the placard notwithstanding!

In view of your knowledge about the FBI flight path, how about explaining what those x-marks which lie on a straight line between the Malay and Canby Intersections mean.

Shutter has a good point in that since 1971 the west side of Portland (say west of the Portland International Airport), has been built up much more than the east side.