Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 158485 times)

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1725 on: April 08, 2019, 08:09:22 AM »
I can see that the flight path discussion is a very controversial one. That makes perfect sense.

To be clear, I did not come up with the idea of a western path. That said, to the best of my knowledge there have only been three of us who have strongly advocated such a path--which by definition means the FBI flight path (Air Force) is wrong.

1] Tosaw factored in Tena Bar and considered that nothing had been found along the FBI flight path to arrive at a western path.

2] R99 factored in Tena Bar, the correlation between Maylay and Canby, the not-likely circuitous FBI path near Portland, the flow of the Columbia River near Tena Bar, and the placard to some degree to arrive at a western path.

3] I put a lot of weight on both Tena Bar and the placard find, and also considered the 8:12 jump time, the role of the Columbia River in all of this, the fact that nothing has been found along the FBI flight path, the "doesn't make sense" circuitous FBI path near Portland, and the fact that the FBI had erred previously via the Palmer Report, to arrive at what I call the 8:12 Arc Theory which points to a western flight path.

All of this said, Tosaw and R99 both believe DBC no-pulled. I believe Tosaw said he ended up in the river, and R99 believes he ended up on Caterpillar Island. I, on the other hand, believe DBC survived and landed in the Ridgefield National Wildlife Refuge.

I do not consider Tosaw, R99 or myself crackpots or drawn to conspiracies. I think the methodology that each of us has applied to arrive at a western path makes sense.

On the other hand, from what I can tell Shutter is the strongest--at least most vocal--advocate for the FBI path. This of course is based upon the Air Force's capabilities and the testimony of R2 in Seattle. That makes sense, is compelling and by default should be the accepted flight path.

However, Tosaw, R99 and I have, for reasons explained above, concluded that the default (Air Force) path must be wrong.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2019, 08:12:19 AM by EU »
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Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1726 on: April 08, 2019, 12:38:44 PM »
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I can see that the flight path discussion is a very controversial one. That makes perfect sense.

To be clear, I did not come up with the idea of a western path. That said, to the best of my knowledge there have only been three of us who have strongly advocated such a path--which by definition means the FBI flight path (Air Force) is wrong.

1] Tosaw factored in Tena Bar and considered that nothing had been found along the FBI flight path to arrive at a western path.

2] R99 factored in Tena Bar, the correlation between Maylay and Canby, the not-likely circuitous FBI path near Portland, the flow of the Columbia River near Tena Bar, and the placard to some degree to arrive at a western path.

3] I put a lot of weight on both Tena Bar and the placard find, and also considered the 8:12 jump time, the role of the Columbia River in all of this, the fact that nothing has been found along the FBI flight path, the "doesn't make sense" circuitous FBI path near Portland, and the fact that the FBI had erred previously via the Palmer Report, to arrive at what I call the 8:12 Arc Theory which points to a western flight path.

All of this said, Tosaw and R99 both believe DBC no-pulled. I believe Tosaw said he ended up in the river, and R99 believes he ended up on Caterpillar Island. I, on the other hand, believe DBC survived and landed in the Ridgefield National Wildlife Refuge.

I do not consider Tosaw, R99 or myself crackpots or drawn to conspiracies. I think the methodology that each of us has applied to arrive at a western path makes sense.

On the other hand, from what I can tell Shutter is the strongest--at least most vocal--advocate for the FBI path. This of course is based upon the Air Force's capabilities and the testimony of R2 in Seattle. That makes sense, is compelling and by default should be the accepted flight path.

However, Tosaw, R99 and I have, for reasons explained above, concluded that the default (Air Force) path must be wrong.

Im not sure Tosaw did subscribe to a 'western' fp vs the FBI fp.

What did Tosaw say, specifically ... and why did he say it ?

Do you require that 305 must be outside the 4 mile western side of V23 in order to qualify as a 'western flight path' ?
« Last Edit: April 08, 2019, 12:42:45 PM by georger »
 

Offline Kermit

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1727 on: April 08, 2019, 12:43:41 PM »
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I have NEVER heard or read anything CREDIBLE during the time immediately after the Cooper Hyjacking. This brings up the question in my mind as how is this possible ? I have a pretty good idea but nobody here really cares ! To me it seems like way too many are trying to rewrite History rather than actually going back in time to 1971 and try to figure out how he did it. It’s far easier to change the flight plan and make entire story all about Tina Bar ! Funny how until the money was found at Tina Bar, NOBODY was talking about the plane dying over Tina Bar or St. Helens etc. Here we are 47 years later and now suddenly all the information provided in 1971 is erroneous!
Most of the so called experts here have no idea what Portland was like in 1971.

Of course "so called experts" are going to factor in new evidence. That would be ridiculous not to consider the only evidence found outside of the jet (placard and money).

I asked R99 to re-analyze his placard free-fall analysis based upon updated data related to wind conditions, placard size and weight. He just informed me of his results. I will let him speak to them on the forum if he so chooses. I will tell you the drift of that placard is a major obstacle that must be explained if you are a proponent of the FBI's flight path (Air Force derived flight path, I get it).

Once again, what actual evidence is there that the FBI flight path is accurate? The answer is zilch. Just some guy who somehow put the thing together. Also, apparently R2, who was in Seattle (or Portland?) and wasn't looking at the radar at the time the jet crossed the Columbia, who was staging a chase place intercept "west" of Portland."

On the other hand, I'll point to the placard, the money, and the "nothing has ever been found along the FBI flight path for over 47 years" fact to support my argument that the FBI flight path is wrong.

By the way, I asked earlier about the jet being on autopilot...am I to understand that it was taking a grand tour of the Amboy, Washougal, Vancouver and downtown Portland scenic route all while flying on autopilot?

Let’s hear about all your new evidence ! The placard was there since 1978 ! The weather hasn’t changed on the night of Nov 24, 1971 ! The weather, Wind, precipitation, temperature is widely reported and documented by a number of weather bureaus ! The only thing I know that has changed is so called present day experts trying to alter
Everything 47 years AFTER the facts ! I’ve spent most of my life in Portland area and I’m only aware of 2 incidents involving aircraft incidents in Portland. One was,caused by a pilot making a serious decision which caused his plane to crash in vicinity of 160 th and Burnside in 1978 killing 10. Another incident had a major carrier landing a plane at Troutdale Airport by mistake ! Both incidents 100% pilot error. It’s funny that in all these years the Air Traffic controllers never had any problem knowing where all these planes were until the night of Nov 24, 1971. Now suddenly 47 years after the fact, apparently they were just plain stupid and had no clue where this high jacked plane was ? Our air defense in McCord Airbase had no clue, our pilots were lost , my own Air National Guard Unit at PDX had no clue, Air Traffic Control at PDX had no clue ! However you seem to be able to locate almost exactly where the plane was ! Unbelievable! You also know that the placard traveled like exactly 8 Miles ! Wow ! Sorry but I’m still looking for all your new FACTUAL evidence that wasn’t found 47 years ago ?

You can rest assured that the controllers knew exactly where the airliner was when it was talking to the Seattle controllers.  What is your explanation for the 19 redactions in the Seattle ATC transcript and the complete absence of information in those transcripts that would show the location of the airliner?  Do you have a logical explanation that dates back to 1971.

As I have explained repeatedly on this site since its creation, if you want to see how air traffic controllers operated in 1971 all you have to do is read the Oakland Center and Reno transcripts.  That is textbook air traffic control for the 1971 time period.  I suggest you read those transcripts.

Shutter posted an FBI document a few days back that stated the airliner was on autopilot during the time it was in the Portland/Vancouver area.  In 1971 autopilots could fly specific headings or track inbound or outbound on VORTAC radials.  Autopilots were for "straight and level" flight.  This means that the airliner was not changing directions ever 60 seconds, and if it was on V-23 it would be tracking the airway centerline.  If it was not V-23 and tracking the V-23 centerline it would be flying headings as directed by Seattle Center controllers.

In addition to the placard, there are a number of other things that rule against the FBI flight path and Cooper landing in the Washougal watershed.

On the subject of "experts", how about listing your aeronautical expertise and other qualifications for your statements.  In my own aeronautical engineering experience, the term "expert" was used as a pejorative.  I doubt if I have ever heard an engineer describe him/herself as an "expert".
First off, welcome back ! Your expertise is acknowledged and well documented! Unlike yourself, at no time have I ever claimed to possess ANY aeronautical expertise. My post is very simple ! I acknowledge the fact that there were many brilliant minds at work in 1971 who came up with the flight path. I accept your theory as a distinct POSSIBILITY but I’m not about to accept it as a fact ! That’s what makes the Cooper Caper so captivating. Theories, stories, opinions and very few facts keep the mystery alive 47 years and counting.
I asked a question which nobody has responded to. Carroll Hicks who was hunting in 1978 and found the Placard was NOT hunting alone. For safety reasons, I also have never hunted alone. The reports I have read said He and his hunting partner were collecting garbage that was littered around the woods and picked up the placard. They took it with them before they realized it might be connected to the Cooper hyjacking. Does anyone know the name of the other hunter ? I have several friends who grew up in the area and were avid hunters. Toutle is a very small town and there’s a very good possibility that my friend might know the other hunter. My purpose is to try to contact the other hunter in hopes of gaining more information on exactly where placard was found. I used to hunt the exact same area in Heppner, Oregon and could identify the exact location even today.
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1728 on: April 08, 2019, 12:45:20 PM »
If I'm not mistaken, there was a reference to Tosaw believing Cooper landed within 1000 feet of Tena Bar in a newspaper article written about his Columbia River search.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2019, 12:47:22 PM by EU »
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Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1729 on: April 08, 2019, 01:07:24 PM »
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If I'm not mistaken, there was a reference to Tosaw believing Cooper landed within 1000 feet of Tena Bar in a newspaper article written about his Columbia River search.

Lets find exact quotes from him ... one question in my mind is: did he talk to Maj Dawson? People whop worked for him say he quoted or cited Rataczak a lot.   
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1730 on: April 08, 2019, 01:14:51 PM »
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I have NEVER heard or read anything CREDIBLE during the time immediately after the Cooper Hyjacking. This brings up the question in my mind as how is this possible ? I have a pretty good idea but nobody here really cares ! To me it seems like way too many are trying to rewrite History rather than actually going back in time to 1971 and try to figure out how he did it. It’s far easier to change the flight plan and make entire story all about Tina Bar ! Funny how until the money was found at Tina Bar, NOBODY was talking about the plane dying over Tina Bar or St. Helens etc. Here we are 47 years later and now suddenly all the information provided in 1971 is erroneous!
Most of the so called experts here have no idea what Portland was like in 1971.

Of course "so called experts" are going to factor in new evidence. That would be ridiculous not to consider the only evidence found outside of the jet (placard and money).

I asked R99 to re-analyze his placard free-fall analysis based upon updated data related to wind conditions, placard size and weight. He just informed me of his results. I will let him speak to them on the forum if he so chooses. I will tell you the drift of that placard is a major obstacle that must be explained if you are a proponent of the FBI's flight path (Air Force derived flight path, I get it).

Once again, what actual evidence is there that the FBI flight path is accurate? The answer is zilch. Just some guy who somehow put the thing together. Also, apparently R2, who was in Seattle (or Portland?) and wasn't looking at the radar at the time the jet crossed the Columbia, who was staging a chase place intercept "west" of Portland."

On the other hand, I'll point to the placard, the money, and the "nothing has ever been found along the FBI flight path for over 47 years" fact to support my argument that the FBI flight path is wrong.

By the way, I asked earlier about the jet being on autopilot...am I to understand that it was taking a grand tour of the Amboy, Washougal, Vancouver and downtown Portland scenic route all while flying on autopilot?

Let’s hear about all your new evidence ! The placard was there since 1978 ! The weather hasn’t changed on the night of Nov 24, 1971 ! The weather, Wind, precipitation, temperature is widely reported and documented by a number of weather bureaus ! The only thing I know that has changed is so called present day experts trying to alter
Everything 47 years AFTER the facts ! I’ve spent most of my life in Portland area and I’m only aware of 2 incidents involving aircraft incidents in Portland. One was,caused by a pilot making a serious decision which caused his plane to crash in vicinity of 160 th and Burnside in 1978 killing 10. Another incident had a major carrier landing a plane at Troutdale Airport by mistake ! Both incidents 100% pilot error. It’s funny that in all these years the Air Traffic controllers never had any problem knowing where all these planes were until the night of Nov 24, 1971. Now suddenly 47 years after the fact, apparently they were just plain stupid and had no clue where this high jacked plane was ? Our air defense in McCord Airbase had no clue, our pilots were lost , my own Air National Guard Unit at PDX had no clue, Air Traffic Control at PDX had no clue ! However you seem to be able to locate almost exactly where the plane was ! Unbelievable! You also know that the placard traveled like exactly 8 Miles ! Wow ! Sorry but I’m still looking for all your new FACTUAL evidence that wasn’t found 47 years ago ?

You can rest assured that the controllers knew exactly where the airliner was when it was talking to the Seattle controllers.  What is your explanation for the 19 redactions in the Seattle ATC transcript and the complete absence of information in those transcripts that would show the location of the airliner?  Do you have a logical explanation that dates back to 1971.

As I have explained repeatedly on this site since its creation, if you want to see how air traffic controllers operated in 1971 all you have to do is read the Oakland Center and Reno transcripts.  That is textbook air traffic control for the 1971 time period.  I suggest you read those transcripts.

Shutter posted an FBI document a few days back that stated the airliner was on autopilot during the time it was in the Portland/Vancouver area.  In 1971 autopilots could fly specific headings or track inbound or outbound on VORTAC radials.  Autopilots were for "straight and level" flight.  This means that the airliner was not changing directions ever 60 seconds, and if it was on V-23 it would be tracking the airway centerline.  If it was not V-23 and tracking the V-23 centerline it would be flying headings as directed by Seattle Center controllers.

In addition to the placard, there are a number of other things that rule against the FBI flight path and Cooper landing in the Washougal watershed.

On the subject of "experts", how about listing your aeronautical expertise and other qualifications for your statements.  In my own aeronautical engineering experience, the term "expert" was used as a pejorative.  I doubt if I have ever heard an engineer describe him/herself as an "expert".
First off, welcome back ! Your expertise is acknowledged and well documented! Unlike yourself, at no time have I ever claimed to possess ANY aeronautical expertise. My post is very simple ! I acknowledge the fact that there were many brilliant minds at work in 1971 who came up with the flight path. I accept your theory as a distinct POSSIBILITY but I’m not about to accept it as a fact ! That’s what makes the Cooper Caper so captivating. Theories, stories, opinions and very few facts keep the mystery alive 47 years and counting.
I asked a question which nobody has responded to. Carroll Hicks who was hunting in 1978 and found the Placard was NOT hunting alone. For safety reasons, I also have never hunted alone. The reports I have read said He and his hunting partner were collecting garbage that was littered around the woods and picked up the placard. They took it with them before they realized it might be connected to the Cooper hyjacking. Does anyone know the name of the other hunter ? I have several friends who grew up in the area and were avid hunters. Toutle is a very small town and there’s a very good possibility that my friend might know the other hunter. My purpose is to try to contact the other hunter in hopes of gaining more information on exactly where placard was found. I used to hunt the exact same area in Heppner, Oregon and could identify the exact location even today.

Tom has the names . . .
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1731 on: April 08, 2019, 02:48:59 PM »
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Im not sure Tosaw did subscribe to a 'western' fp vs the FBI fp.

What did Tosaw say, specifically ... and why did he say it ?

Do you require that 305 must be outside the 4 mile western side of V23 in order to qualify as a 'western flight path' ?

This may be the article I remember

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...it has Tosaw saying that he thinks Cooper's body is within 3000 feet of the money find because of the dredging operation. It does not explicitly state that he (Tosaw) thinks that the jet flew over Tena Bar which is what I would consider the Western Flight Path.
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Offline andrade1812

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1732 on: April 08, 2019, 11:28:54 PM »
On page 93 of Tosaw's book, he includes a graphic showing the plane's route, Victor 23.

On p. 107 and 108, he talks about his interview with Paul Soderlind. Soderlind drew a search grid, and that included the Columbia River. From this, Tosaw theorized that Cooper landed in the Columbia. Tosaw doesn't even suggest a no-pull, he believes Cooper deployed his parachute and landed in the water.

Tosaw did not advocate a Western flight path.

 

Offline andrade1812

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1733 on: April 08, 2019, 11:46:42 PM »
This is for Shutter:

The Old Man doesn't believe the auto-pilot was used at the time of the jump. "You don't use an autopilot when you're doing something abnormal. Landing gear down, tailgate open is not normal. It Rataczak said he was flying the plane, he was flying the plane."

He also said the "bumps" would look the same whether the auto-pilot was on or whether a human was at the controls. "Both do the same thing, correct back to your line"
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1734 on: April 08, 2019, 11:53:46 PM »
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On page 93 of Tosaw's book, he includes a graphic showing the plane's route, Victor 23.

On p. 107 and 108, he talks about his interview with Paul Soderlind. Soderlind drew a search grid, and that included the Columbia River. From this, Tosaw theorized that Cooper landed in the Columbia. Tosaw doesn't even suggest a no-pull, he believes Cooper deployed his parachute and landed in the water.

Tosaw did not advocate a Western flight path.

What is shown on page 93 of Tosaw's book is NOT a V-23 flight path.  It is NOT a V-23E flight path either.  The money find location shown on that diagram is WRONG.  If Cooper had landed in the Columbia River or the Washougal watershed, there are valid reasons why the money would never had made it to Tina Bar in the first place.

And the statements on 107 and 108 and the radar data DO NOT support Solderlind's statements. 
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1735 on: April 09, 2019, 12:18:04 AM »
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On page 93 of Tosaw's book, he includes a graphic showing the plane's route, Victor 23.

On p. 107 and 108, he talks about his interview with Paul Soderlind. Soderlind drew a search grid, and that included the Columbia River. From this, Tosaw theorized that Cooper landed in the Columbia. Tosaw doesn't even suggest a no-pull, he believes Cooper deployed his parachute and landed in the water.

Tosaw did not advocate a Western flight path.

It may well be that R99 and I are the only two advocating the Western Path.
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1736 on: April 09, 2019, 12:22:12 AM »
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This is for Shutter:

The Old Man doesn't believe the auto-pilot was used at the time of the jump. "You don't use an autopilot when you're doing something abnormal. Landing gear down, tailgate open is not normal. It Rataczak said he was flying the plane, he was flying the plane."

He also said the "bumps" would look the same whether the auto-pilot was on or whether a human was at the controls. "Both do the same thing, correct back to your line"

Ok, makes sense. they mention adjusting the trim. you wouldn't do that if the autopilot was on...
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1737 on: April 09, 2019, 12:30:14 AM »
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Im not sure Tosaw did subscribe to a 'western' fp vs the FBI fp.

What did Tosaw say, specifically ... and why did he say it ?

Do you require that 305 must be outside the 4 mile western side of V23 in order to qualify as a 'western flight path' ?

This may be the article I remember

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...it has Tosaw saying that he thinks Cooper's body is within 3000 feet of the money find because of the dredging operation. It does not explicitly state that he (Tosaw) thinks that the jet flew over Tena Bar which is what I would consider the Western Flight Path.

It says nothing about the flight path - nothing.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1738 on: April 09, 2019, 12:32:23 AM »
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On page 93 of Tosaw's book, he includes a graphic showing the plane's route, Victor 23.

On p. 107 and 108, he talks about his interview with Paul Soderlind. Soderlind drew a search grid, and that included the Columbia River. From this, Tosaw theorized that Cooper landed in the Columbia. Tosaw doesn't even suggest a no-pull, he believes Cooper deployed his parachute and landed in the water.

Tosaw did not advocate a Western flight path.

Thats right - he simply said Cooper jumped into the Columbia and died .. somewhere near where the money was found. That 'somewhere' turns out to be a large area, from the end of Hayden Island all the way up to Tina Bar.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1739 on: April 09, 2019, 12:34:13 AM »
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On page 93 of Tosaw's book, he includes a graphic showing the plane's route, Victor 23.

On p. 107 and 108, he talks about his interview with Paul Soderlind. Soderlind drew a search grid, and that included the Columbia River. From this, Tosaw theorized that Cooper landed in the Columbia. Tosaw doesn't even suggest a no-pull, he believes Cooper deployed his parachute and landed in the water.

Tosaw did not advocate a Western flight path.

What is shown on page 93 of Tosaw's book is NOT a V-23 flight path.  It is NOT a V-23E flight path either.  The money find location shown on that diagram is WRONG.  If Cooper had landed in the Columbia River or the Washougal watershed, there are valid reasons why the money would never had made it to Tina Bar in the first place.

And the statements on 107 and 108 and the radar data DO NOT support Solderlind's statements.

Can someone show the Tosaw flight path in his book?