Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 185607 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1710 on: April 07, 2019, 04:51:57 PM »
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And I still cant place "and the lights of Vancouver were coming up" into this chain of events.

I only read about it on forums and threads. possibly a myth. they do state "Portland proper" in the 302's.
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1711 on: April 07, 2019, 04:55:21 PM »
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And I still cant place "and the lights of Vancouver were coming up" into this chain of events.

I only read about it on forums and threads. possibly a myth. they do state "Portland proper" in the 302's.

Wasn't it Carr who mentioned that he thought Rataczak meant they we're approaching Vancouver as opposed to Portland? That certainly makes sense.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1712 on: April 07, 2019, 04:58:21 PM »
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And I still cant place "and the lights of Vancouver were coming up" into this chain of events.

I only read about it on forums and threads. possibly a myth. they do state "Portland proper" in the 302's.

Wasn't it Carr who mentioned that he thought Rataczak meant they we're approaching Vancouver as opposed to Portland? That certainly makes sense.

Sounds like another statement taken out of context over time.
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1713 on: April 07, 2019, 05:02:59 PM »
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And I still cant place "and the lights of Vancouver were coming up" into this chain of events.

I only read about it on forums and threads. possibly a myth. they do state "Portland proper" in the 302's.

Wasn't it Carr who mentioned that he thought Rataczak meant they we're approaching Vancouver as opposed to Portland? That certainly makes sense.

Sounds like another statement taken out of context over time.

No, I believe I heard Carr say this himself during a radio show or on TV. I cannot remember. Maybe I read it.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline Kermit

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1714 on: April 07, 2019, 07:15:00 PM »
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I had some time to kill yesterday as my wife had a appointment in nearby Castle Rock. I took a ride up to the area of the Placard find location. It’s quite a few miles East of I 5. I’m not sure exactly how many miles “ as the crow flies “, but it’s quite a jaunt via wheels. Silver Lake is 7 to 8 miles, Toutle is 10 miles and it’s S E of Toutle. The area has been heavily hunted and logged over the last 47 years so it’s doubtful anything Cooper related is still lying around. I think Carroll Hicks has passed away but I’ve never got the name of his hunting partner. I am friends with several who grew up in Toutle and Longview/Kelso area. I encountered several logging trucks exiting the area stacked high so there’s plenty of logging activity as we speak.

Ive been wanting to ask you something - - -

As a longtime resident and mailman at Portland, did you ever hear anything like the 'Janet story', any witness reports like it, or anything about Janet and her husband and their account?
I have NEVER heard or read anything CREDIBLE during the time immediately after the Cooper Hyjacking. This brings up the question in my mind as how is this possible ? I have a pretty good idea but nobody here really cares ! To me it seems like way too many are trying to rewrite History rather than actually going back in time to 1971 and try to figure out how he did it. It’s far easier to change the flight plan and make entire story all about Tina Bar ! Funny how until the money was found at Tina Bar, NOBODY was talking about the plane dying over Tina Bar or St. Helens etc. Here we are 47 years later and now suddenly all the information provided in 1971 is erroneous!
Most of the so called experts here have no idea what Portland was like in 1971.
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1715 on: April 07, 2019, 07:57:43 PM »
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I have NEVER heard or read anything CREDIBLE during the time immediately after the Cooper Hyjacking. This brings up the question in my mind as how is this possible ? I have a pretty good idea but nobody here really cares ! To me it seems like way too many are trying to rewrite History rather than actually going back in time to 1971 and try to figure out how he did it. It’s far easier to change the flight plan and make entire story all about Tina Bar ! Funny how until the money was found at Tina Bar, NOBODY was talking about the plane dying over Tina Bar or St. Helens etc. Here we are 47 years later and now suddenly all the information provided in 1971 is erroneous!
Most of the so called experts here have no idea what Portland was like in 1971.

Of course "so called experts" are going to factor in new evidence. That would be ridiculous not to consider the only evidence found outside of the jet (placard and money).

I asked R99 to re-analyze his placard free-fall analysis based upon updated data related to wind conditions, placard size and weight. He just informed me of his results. I will let him speak to them on the forum if he so chooses. I will tell you the drift of that placard is a major obstacle that must be explained if you are a proponent of the FBI's flight path (Air Force derived flight path, I get it).

Once again, what actual evidence is there that the FBI flight path is accurate? The answer is zilch. Just some guy who somehow put the thing together. Also, apparently R2, who was in Seattle (or Portland?) and wasn't looking at the radar at the time the jet crossed the Columbia, who was staging a chase place intercept "west" of Portland."

On the other hand, I'll point to the placard, the money, and the "nothing has ever been found along the FBI flight path for over 47 years" fact to support my argument that the FBI flight path is wrong.

By the way, I asked earlier about the jet being on autopilot...am I to understand that it was taking a grand tour of the Amboy, Washougal, Vancouver and downtown Portland scenic route all while flying on autopilot?
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1716 on: April 07, 2019, 09:10:58 PM »
First of all. I think you need to stop resorting to the belief everything was thrown together. then you need to explain when the auto-pilot was on and when it was off. while your at it explain what tour the plane took over Amboy that is 5 NM from the known flight path and other locations miles off of the path as well.

I've been speaking with traffic controllers about this and they are looking into what I have explained to them. I've also looked into weather and winds. I have received answers that don't agree with your analysis based on actual winds in the area vs what stations state at the time. then they question the placard being untouched for 7 years with no data to support how long it's been at the location found.

"At the risk this isn't a gag or a scene from "Without a Paddle"...great movie...

Winds in mountainous areas are crazy, a stable wind is a joke and predictable winds are more so a joke. So trying to piece together the wind from a night decades ago is nigh impossible in a specific area. At least in my experience, we are at the base of the Sierra Nevadas and our wind can be 20G45KTS from a different direction every 5 minutes."

I explained that the card was found less than a mile west of the known estimated path with winds in the opposite direction.

"Which is why I don’t put much value in its location. There’s 7 years of variables that no one knows there."

Some agreed...but question the time frame
"I mean, it sounds like it was about where it should be based on everything. Something that’s an once being found within a mile of the airway centerline after 7 years?"

Others are agreeing that it's not odd to be found somewhere around the path against the wind direction. too many variables that have to be considered. you want to completely agree with most of the flight path you make fun of saying it's basically a joke and discard a small area that fits a placard in winds based on an estimate for that area. that's kind of what you are accusing everyone else of. guessing, estimating? it's a joke, but yours is not? the FDR gives heading. is that wrong too? do we discard the altitude and speed. all a joke? is the jump time close. how can you use data you don't trust to make it a fact?

Instead of trying to drive things down peoples throats I'm out looking for answers. I don't trust anything and find looking into things are more reasonable than claiming everything is wrong. just about everything in this case is disappearing before my eye's based on theories. the bomb was wrapped in red plastic. the money was planted, the path is wrong. the description of Cooper is wrong. Cooper has a chipped or crooked tooth, a scar on the back of his hand. the Amboy chute was Cooper's. Cossey was killed to silence him.

I'm currently in discussion on several sites and will continue to speak with multiple people surrounding controllers, pilots, meteorologist to try and make some sense out of all of this. it shouldn't be a matter of who is right or wrong. it's a matter of FACT. 
« Last Edit: April 07, 2019, 09:13:27 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1717 on: April 07, 2019, 09:40:29 PM »
I am convinced the evidence points to a flight path far to the west.

That said, I am going to look into conducting a couple of experiments.

1) Take a similar size placard up to 10K feet in the same area under what are reported to have been the conditions on 11/24/71 and drop the placard with a GPS tracking device. Let's see where it goes. 377 verified that there are exceptionally small tracking devices that could be used for this type of experiment.

2) Place a similar placard in the woods and give it a year. Let's see how far it migrates.

This should give us a pretty solid idea of whether my theory is accurate or not.

Also, according to my theory, the placard dislodged at a point approximately 8 NM southwest of where the placard was found. The elevation at this point is approximately 1300 feet. The placard find spot, 8 NM away, was also at an elevation of about 1300 feet. The land it traveled over was essentially a plain, not the Alps.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1718 on: April 07, 2019, 11:12:45 PM »
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I am convinced the evidence points to a flight path far to the west.

That said, I am going to look into conducting a couple of experiments.

1) Take a similar size placard up to 10K feet in the same area under what are reported to have been the conditions on 11/24/71 and drop the placard with a GPS tracking device. Let's see where it goes. 377 verified that there are exceptionally small tracking devices that could be used for this type of experiment.

2) Place a similar placard in the woods and give it a year. Let's see how far it migrates.

This should give us a pretty solid idea of whether my theory is accurate or not.

Also, according to my theory, the placard dislodged at a point approximately 8 NM southwest of where the placard was found. The elevation at this point is approximately 1300 feet. The placard find spot, 8 NM away, was also at an elevation of about 1300 feet. The land it traveled over was essentially a plain, not the Alps.

That's the idea! this is exactly how you do it to prove a theory vs telling someone over and over. I'm not sure about attaching anything to the card but they make things pretty small now.

However, I'm certainly not sold that this is your theory vs R99's....
« Last Edit: April 07, 2019, 11:13:46 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Kermit

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1719 on: April 07, 2019, 11:28:45 PM »
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I have NEVER heard or read anything CREDIBLE during the time immediately after the Cooper Hyjacking. This brings up the question in my mind as how is this possible ? I have a pretty good idea but nobody here really cares ! To me it seems like way too many are trying to rewrite History rather than actually going back in time to 1971 and try to figure out how he did it. It’s far easier to change the flight plan and make entire story all about Tina Bar ! Funny how until the money was found at Tina Bar, NOBODY was talking about the plane dying over Tina Bar or St. Helens etc. Here we are 47 years later and now suddenly all the information provided in 1971 is erroneous!
Most of the so called experts here have no idea what Portland was like in 1971.

Of course "so called experts" are going to factor in new evidence. That would be ridiculous not to consider the only evidence found outside of the jet (placard and money).

I asked R99 to re-analyze his placard free-fall analysis based upon updated data related to wind conditions, placard size and weight. He just informed me of his results. I will let him speak to them on the forum if he so chooses. I will tell you the drift of that placard is a major obstacle that must be explained if you are a proponent of the FBI's flight path (Air Force derived flight path, I get it).

Once again, what actual evidence is there that the FBI flight path is accurate? The answer is zilch. Just some guy who somehow put the thing together. Also, apparently R2, who was in Seattle (or Portland?) and wasn't looking at the radar at the time the jet crossed the Columbia, who was staging a chase place intercept "west" of Portland."

On the other hand, I'll point to the placard, the money, and the "nothing has ever been found along the FBI flight path for over 47 years" fact to support my argument that the FBI flight path is wrong.

By the way, I asked earlier about the jet being on autopilot...am I to understand that it was taking a grand tour of the Amboy, Washougal, Vancouver and downtown Portland scenic route all while flying on autopilot?

Let’s hear about all your new evidence ! The placard was there since 1978 ! The weather hasn’t changed on the night of Nov 24, 1971 ! The weather, Wind, precipitation, temperature is widely reported and documented by a number of weather bureaus ! The only thing I know that has changed is so called present day experts trying to alter
Everything 47 years AFTER the facts ! I’ve spent most of my life in Portland area and I’m only aware of 2 incidents involving aircraft incidents in Portland. One was,caused by a pilot making a serious decision which caused his plane to crash in vicinity of 160 th and Burnside in 1978 killing 10. Another incident had a major carrier landing a plane at Troutdale Airport by mistake ! Both incidents 100% pilot error. It’s funny that in all these years the Air Traffic controllers never had any problem knowing where all these planes were until the night of Nov 24, 1971. Now suddenly 47 years after the fact, apparently they were just plain stupid and had no clue where this high jacked plane was ? Our air defense in McCord Airbase had no clue, our pilots were lost , my own Air National Guard Unit at PDX had no clue, Air Traffic Control at PDX had no clue ! However you seem to be able to locate almost exactly where the plane was ! Unbelievable! You also know that the placard traveled like exactly 8 Miles ! Wow ! Sorry but I’m still looking for all your new FACTUAL evidence that wasn’t found 47 years ago ?
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1720 on: April 07, 2019, 11:38:05 PM »
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I had some time to kill yesterday as my wife had a appointment in nearby Castle Rock. I took a ride up to the area of the Placard find location. It’s quite a few miles East of I 5. I’m not sure exactly how many miles “ as the crow flies “, but it’s quite a jaunt via wheels. Silver Lake is 7 to 8 miles, Toutle is 10 miles and it’s S E of Toutle. The area has been heavily hunted and logged over the last 47 years so it’s doubtful anything Cooper related is still lying around. I think Carroll Hicks has passed away but I’ve never got the name of his hunting partner. I am friends with several who grew up in Toutle and Longview/Kelso area. I encountered several logging trucks exiting the area stacked high so there’s plenty of logging activity as we speak.

Ive been wanting to ask you something - - -

As a longtime resident and mailman at Portland, did you ever hear anything like the 'Janet story', any witness reports like it, or anything about Janet and her husband and their account?
I have NEVER heard or read anything CREDIBLE during the time immediately after the Cooper Hyjacking. This brings up the question in my mind as how is this possible ? I have a pretty good idea but nobody here really cares ! To me it seems like way too many are trying to rewrite History rather than actually going back in time to 1971 and try to figure out how he did it. It’s far easier to change the flight plan and make entire story all about Tina Bar ! Funny how until the money was found at Tina Bar, NOBODY was talking about the plane dying over Tina Bar or St. Helens etc. Here we are 47 years later and now suddenly all the information provided in 1971 is erroneous!
Most of the so called experts here have no idea what Portland was like in 1971.

You may be correct. Thanks ... 
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1721 on: April 08, 2019, 02:04:11 AM »
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I have NEVER heard or read anything CREDIBLE during the time immediately after the Cooper Hyjacking. This brings up the question in my mind as how is this possible ? I have a pretty good idea but nobody here really cares ! To me it seems like way too many are trying to rewrite History rather than actually going back in time to 1971 and try to figure out how he did it. It’s far easier to change the flight plan and make entire story all about Tina Bar ! Funny how until the money was found at Tina Bar, NOBODY was talking about the plane dying over Tina Bar or St. Helens etc. Here we are 47 years later and now suddenly all the information provided in 1971 is erroneous!
Most of the so called experts here have no idea what Portland was like in 1971.

Of course "so called experts" are going to factor in new evidence. That would be ridiculous not to consider the only evidence found outside of the jet (placard and money).

I asked R99 to re-analyze his placard free-fall analysis based upon updated data related to wind conditions, placard size and weight. He just informed me of his results. I will let him speak to them on the forum if he so chooses. I will tell you the drift of that placard is a major obstacle that must be explained if you are a proponent of the FBI's flight path (Air Force derived flight path, I get it).

Once again, what actual evidence is there that the FBI flight path is accurate? The answer is zilch. Just some guy who somehow put the thing together. Also, apparently R2, who was in Seattle (or Portland?) and wasn't looking at the radar at the time the jet crossed the Columbia, who was staging a chase place intercept "west" of Portland."

On the other hand, I'll point to the placard, the money, and the "nothing has ever been found along the FBI flight path for over 47 years" fact to support my argument that the FBI flight path is wrong.

By the way, I asked earlier about the jet being on autopilot...am I to understand that it was taking a grand tour of the Amboy, Washougal, Vancouver and downtown Portland scenic route all while flying on autopilot?

Let’s hear about all your new evidence ! The placard was there since 1978 ! The weather hasn’t changed on the night of Nov 24, 1971 ! The weather, Wind, precipitation, temperature is widely reported and documented by a number of weather bureaus ! The only thing I know that has changed is so called present day experts trying to alter
Everything 47 years AFTER the facts ! I’ve spent most of my life in Portland area and I’m only aware of 2 incidents involving aircraft incidents in Portland. One was,caused by a pilot making a serious decision which caused his plane to crash in vicinity of 160 th and Burnside in 1978 killing 10. Another incident had a major carrier landing a plane at Troutdale Airport by mistake ! Both incidents 100% pilot error. It’s funny that in all these years the Air Traffic controllers never had any problem knowing where all these planes were until the night of Nov 24, 1971. Now suddenly 47 years after the fact, apparently they were just plain stupid and had no clue where this high jacked plane was ? Our air defense in McCord Airbase had no clue, our pilots were lost , my own Air National Guard Unit at PDX had no clue, Air Traffic Control at PDX had no clue ! However you seem to be able to locate almost exactly where the plane was ! Unbelievable! You also know that the placard traveled like exactly 8 Miles ! Wow ! Sorry but I’m still looking for all your new FACTUAL evidence that wasn’t found 47 years ago ?

You can rest assured that the controllers knew exactly where the airliner was when it was talking to the Seattle controllers.  What is your explanation for the 19 redactions in the Seattle ATC transcript and the complete absence of information in those transcripts that would show the location of the airliner?  Do you have a logical explanation that dates back to 1971.

As I have explained repeatedly on this site since its creation, if you want to see how air traffic controllers operated in 1971 all you have to do is read the Oakland Center and Reno transcripts.  That is textbook air traffic control for the 1971 time period.  I suggest you read those transcripts.

Shutter posted an FBI document a few days back that stated the airliner was on autopilot during the time it was in the Portland/Vancouver area.  In 1971 autopilots could fly specific headings or track inbound or outbound on VORTAC radials.  Autopilots were for "straight and level" flight.  This means that the airliner was not changing directions ever 60 seconds, and if it was on V-23 it would be tracking the airway centerline.  If it was not V-23 and tracking the V-23 centerline it would be flying headings as directed by Seattle Center controllers.

In addition to the placard, there are a number of other things that rule against the FBI flight path and Cooper landing in the Washougal watershed.

On the subject of "experts", how about listing your aeronautical expertise and other qualifications for your statements.  In my own aeronautical engineering experience, the term "expert" was used as a pejorative.  I doubt if I have ever heard an engineer describe him/herself as an "expert".
« Last Edit: April 08, 2019, 02:12:50 AM by Robert99 »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1722 on: April 08, 2019, 07:29:52 AM »
The auto pilot can be adjusted several ways. you can manipulate the pitch and roll with certain settings.

It can also track a VOR course or Localizer course in NAV LOC. Neither worked particularly well. It was often easier to use Heading Select and track the course manually.

it's able to capture and fly an ILS glideslope. That feature worked pretty well. It couldn't land the plane, so you'd have to kick the autopilot off at minimums and take over manually.

The pilots would be the one to ask on how they set up the auto pilot.

You can fly on auto pilot and maintain altitude and adjust roll and pitch as desired. the plane can be programmed to hold altitude and speed. two things that were critical demands by the hijacker..nothing about deviations east and west.

Andrade, can you confirm this with pops?
« Last Edit: April 08, 2019, 08:06:32 AM by Shutter »
 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1723 on: April 08, 2019, 07:42:22 AM »
Some of the things the pilots don't really make sense but it's possible stress played a roll in there judgment. I can't really speak for the pilots and give you all the reasons. they were probably worried about altitude and speed and used the auto pilot as insurance.

Perhaps before it's too late the pilots, or now, the pilot should be contacted.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2019, 07:45:28 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1724 on: April 08, 2019, 08:00:58 AM »
I don't remember what pilot stated the trim had to be adjusted with the oscillation or bump, don't know which one but would imply the autopilot was off. the document states they used the autopilot most of the time over Washington and down south. the document states if the autopilot was on they might not of known of any changes which goes against the statement given.