Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 143222 times)

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1470 on: March 25, 2019, 05:47:05 PM »
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I give R99 a lot of credit with his background and as a stable good person. however, I just can't come to a conclusion by going against so much to make this theory work. too many involved to have got this that far off.

we have several going against the known flight path but for some reason we don't have any issue's coming from all who were there, as in civilian members going against military findings. everyone seems to have agreed and it's people outside of this circle that are not convinced? nobody from Portland or Seatac disagreeing with the location of 305 on that evening to each other or to the military..traffic controllers saying they never left the boundaries of V23. as Tom stated to me, how can the first part of the path be good and the rest bad?

I need a whole lot more to make this theory plausible IMHO.

When I talked to R2 several times, he admitted that he looked away from his screen just as 305 crossed the Columbia; he was busy talking to the T33 and lining it up for a rendezvous with 305 'near Lake Oswego'. When he looked back at his screen 305 had crossed the Columbia and it was just slightly west of Portland, still on V23. The process of lining the T33 up to converge with 305 required R2 know with certainty where 305 was! I conveyed everything immediately to R99 ..   

Prior to my talk with R2 I will admit that R99 and I both were hoping R2 would say something to justify a fly-over of Tina Bay by 305. That did not happen! It did not happen three times! Then a fourth time at the next interview! Then a fifth time, and on and on and on ...  I was forced to accept the data at hand. There is just no way around it.

The only variable in question is the 'time' Cooper left the plane. That is the only variable the data in hand offers.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2019, 05:59:03 PM by georger »
 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1471 on: March 25, 2019, 07:31:00 PM »
The best I can say is I flew the first parts of the flight path dozens of times and came up with about the same timing in each run..

I made it to Ed Carlson field at 7:59/8:00
I crossed the Lewis river at around 8:10/8:11
I crossed the Columbia at around 8:18/8:19

there is extra time inside the Lewis river down to the Columbia.

This was done by following the radio transcripts for speed/altitudes/fuel flow/temps. and the map for timing match ups.

I could not match the transcripts right out of the gate stating 14 miles DME 4 minutes into the flight. I was able to match the 19 miles DME which would put the plane passing McChord. I believe I was leveled off at 7,000 at that point. it takes some time to reach altitude in this configuration.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2019, 07:31:28 PM by Shutter »
 
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Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1472 on: March 25, 2019, 09:37:05 PM »
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I give R99 a lot of credit with his background and as a stable good person. however, I just can't come to a conclusion by going against so much to make this theory work. too many involved to have got this that far off.

we have several going against the known flight path but for some reason we don't have any issue's coming from all who were there, as in civilian members going against military findings. everyone seems to have agreed and it's people outside of this circle that are not convinced? nobody from Portland or Seatac disagreeing with the location of 305 on that evening to each other or to the military..traffic controllers saying they never left the boundaries of V23. as Tom stated to me, how can the first part of the path be good and the rest bad?

I need a whole lot more to make this theory plausible IMHO.

When I talked to R2 several times, he admitted that he looked away from his screen just as 305 crossed the Columbia; he was busy talking to the T33 and lining it up for a rendezvous with 305 'near Lake Oswego'. When he looked back at his screen 305 had crossed the Columbia and it was just slightly west of Portland, still on V23. The process of lining the T33 up to converge with 305 required R2 know with certainty where 305 was! I conveyed everything immediately to R99 ..   

Prior to my talk with R2 I will admit that R99 and I both were hoping R2 would say something to justify a fly-over of Tina Bay by 305. That did not happen! It did not happen three times! Then a fourth time at the next interview! Then a fifth time, and on and on and on ...  I was forced to accept the data at hand. There is just no way around it.

The only variable in question is the 'time' Cooper left the plane. That is the only variable the data in hand offers.

I find this particularly interesting considering that according to the official FBI flight path the jet never flew west of Portland. In fact, it flew right over the top of it and just EAST of downtown.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1473 on: March 25, 2019, 11:29:48 PM »
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The best I can say is I flew the first parts of the flight path dozens of times and came up with about the same timing in each run..

I made it to Ed Carlson field at 7:59/8:00
I crossed the Lewis river at around 8:10/8:11
I crossed the Columbia at around 8:18/8:19

there is extra time inside the Lewis river down to the Columbia.

This was done by following the radio transcripts for speed/altitudes/fuel flow/temps. and the map for timing match ups.

I could not match the transcripts right out of the gate stating 14 miles DME 4 minutes into the flight. I was able to match the 19 miles DME which would put the plane passing McChord. I believe I was leveled off at 7,000 at that point. it takes some time to reach altitude in this configuration.

I think your times are right in the ballpark, but thats just my personal opinion. I think all known events fit into that timeline.  ............  I wish R99 was here!
« Last Edit: March 26, 2019, 12:38:36 AM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1474 on: March 26, 2019, 02:58:30 AM »
I posted a lot of my conclusion on here. I just never got around to recording the flight path from Seatac to Portland. I might have some flights still in the black box. I haven't cranked it up in a long time. I'm not sure a jump time can actually be calculated doing a simulation since we don't really have an accurate jump time other than what they have already done. some of the things they did are rather odd. the 8:16 to 8:17 marks are not like the map shows. it's a hard roll to the west as if they seen PDX or something and turned, I don't know but it's an odd move. you can see it on the video I posted several times here.
 
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Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1475 on: March 26, 2019, 10:40:42 AM »
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I posted a lot of my conclusion on here. I just never got around to recording the flight path from Seatac to Portland. I might have some flights still in the black box. I haven't cranked it up in a long time. I'm not sure a jump time can actually be calculated doing a simulation since we don't really have an accurate jump time other than what they have already done. some of the things they did are rather odd. the 8:16 to 8:17 marks are not like the map shows. it's a hard roll to the west as if they seen PDX or something and turned, I don't know but it's an odd move. you can see it on the video I posted several times here.

This is part of what doesn't add up. Here this jet is flying just above stall speed (can't even make a standard rate turn) with a bomb aboard, yet it's flying this circuitous route and literally makes a hard right turn directing it over the suburbs of Vancouver, then makes a hard left turn to fly over the northern suburbs of Portland, then turns right again thereby ensuring that it flies right over downtown Portland. It simply makes no sense.

Add to this the placard find, Tena Bar, lack of anything found and the timing problems (which are significant) and I've come to the conclusion that the FBI got it wrong. Just as they got it wrong with the Palmer Report which was crafted by a knowledgeable and reputable person.

Let's face it, the only "evidence" we have for the flight path is the FBI saying "here it is, it was put together using Air Force radar." Okay, that's great--and normally sufficient--but at some point critical thought demands critical thought. After all, the FBI has messed up before.

My argument is that someone, got something wrong, somewhere. Isn't this obvious?
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1476 on: March 26, 2019, 11:10:40 AM »
The plane was not flying just above stall speed. somewhere between 105 and 130 if not mistaken. the 727 was very stable at low speeds vs other commercial jets.

The Air Force made the map, so you are saying the Air Force got it wrong. George Harrison (NWO) got it wrong. air traffic controllers got it wrong. the C130 following the plane was wrong.

It's really not the FBI that you can blame any of this on? the only way to blame the FBI would be with a conspiracy.

The only planes having trouble remaining in the sky was the fighter jets.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2019, 11:12:06 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1477 on: March 26, 2019, 11:21:35 AM »
It's those pesky radar's that one must prove were all faulty that evening. as I mentioned before. it appears both civilian and military came to the same conclusion using multiple radar's for tracking the plane.

This is similar to going against video evidence. very, very hard to dispute.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2019, 11:44:58 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1478 on: March 26, 2019, 11:33:24 AM »
Quote
at some point critical thought demands critical thought.

This is typically done when you don't have a conclusion. we have a shit load of evidence on the flight path you wish to dismiss. direct evidence from pilots, traffic controllers, the military.

prove to me Cooper was not a black female? I think they got it wrong!
« Last Edit: March 26, 2019, 11:33:48 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1479 on: March 26, 2019, 11:41:46 AM »
How populated was the area they circled around Seattle waiting to land with a bomb on board. why just Portland?
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1480 on: March 26, 2019, 11:47:09 AM »
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The plane was not flying just above stall speed. somewhere between 105 and 130 if not mistaken. the 727 was very stable at low speeds vs other commercial jets.

The Air Force made the map, so you are saying the Air Force got it wrong. George Harrison (NWO) got it wrong. air traffic controllers got it wrong. the C130 following the plane was wrong.

It's really not the FBI that you can blame any of this on? the only way to blame the FBI would be with a conspiracy.

The only planes having trouble remaining in the sky was the fighter jets.

I understand how the flight path was put together. The term "FBI flight path" is commonly used and envelops all sources that led to its creation. That said, I'm not sure anyone like George Harrison carries any particular weight.

Let's un-pack this.

Did they get it wrong? Yes. Remember, it was this same data they also used to put together the plot points and 8:11PM jump spot which has to be wrong if he ended up in the Columbia. This is an irrefutable fact. And, if they can get this wrong by a factor of 20% why are they incapable of getting anything else wrong?

How was the flight path derived? According to the FBI, via Air Force radar. That's it.

Now we also have R2 in Portland who was tasked with organizing the chase planes and took his eyes off the jet for a period before he came back to it at which point he noticed the jet had already crossed the Columbia River and was "slightly west (Georger's words)" of Portland. The FBI flight path never shows the jet slightly west of Portland. In fact, it was on top of Portland and slightly EAST of downtown Portland center.

Where did the C-130 pick up the jet? I see there is one that picked it up in Southern Oregon which is obviously of no value here.

I do not use words like "conspiracy" because I do not believe it was a conspiracy. I believe it was a mistake.

Regarding the stall speed? R99 says that it flew just above stall speed and Rat stated that they were very concerned about ice build up on the wings given their slow speed. Yet the jet is entering hard turns to ensure it flies over as many people, and as dense a populated area, as possible?

Again, someone, got something wrong, somewhere.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1481 on: March 26, 2019, 11:53:05 AM »
slightly west = Tbar
Ice on wings means nothing. deicing was turned on.

You want to believe all hell broke loose looking away from a screen for a moment?

you guys win. the plane flew over Tbar...I give up.
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1482 on: March 26, 2019, 12:11:59 PM »
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slightly west = Tbar
Ice on wings means nothing. deicing was turned on.

You want to believe all hell broke loose looking away from a screen for a moment?

you guys win. the plane flew over Tbar...I give up.

No Shutter, this has been an outstanding discussion and illustrates some of the dilemmas in this case. Anyone who has read the last few days' comments walks away with a couple of pretty articulate arguments for the respective flight paths. At the end of the day, I've simply tried to explain why--in my mind--the FBI flight path doesn't pass the smell test.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1483 on: March 26, 2019, 12:45:33 PM »
Has anyone ever since how a flat object fly's? that placard most likely went all over the place shifting direction and speed. no telling exactly where that thing would land. it would of likely cut through the sky in dozens of directions as it fell. this would make it hard to calculate where the placard really came from. it's like locating a leak in a roof. it will drip on one side of the house but actually be coming from the other side.

going against hard documented evidence blaming the FBI for work others did. that alone doesn't pass the smell test. this can really only conclude a massive cover up or conspiracy took place or we had a lot of morons watching the plane that evening.

how dangerous was it really flying over Portland. the airport is right in the middle of a populated area. what about crash concerns there? one minute of terror in the sky out of hours in the air? that's what you guys are fearing. the odds are pretty low IMHO.

the plane circled Seattle for a long period and zero concern.

I realize parts are missing from the transcripts but that doesn't mean it's due to shifting the path. why make a map they never really intended anyone to see?

This is very similar to suspects. he looks like Cooper, he was missing that evening. he's from the mid west etc. that doesn't make him Cooper!
 

Offline 377

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #1484 on: March 26, 2019, 12:59:51 PM »
Pieces of material with very low weight and lots of flat surface area (e.g. 727 placard) don't necessarily follow the normal ballistic drop trajectories.

How do I know? I once saw a fluttering candy bar wrapper in the air several thousand feet up as I descended in my parachute. It didn't come from prior jumpers as I was the first out on the first load of the day. I think there was a good possibility that it started out as ground litter, was picked up by the wind, got into some thermals and had been up there for some time.

I wonder if glider pilots occasionally see ground litter when circling in thermals?

I don't think there were thermals at night when Cooper made his jump, but a fluttering placard could have a very long hang time which means that winds aloft could take it a lot farther than a simple ballistic fall would lead you to expect.

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