Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 213688 times)

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #75 on: March 05, 2014, 12:55:10 PM »
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National Weather Service is a good place to start.  But there are other sources available.  And the best source just might be the "pilots who were    actually flying in the damn stuff."  Isn't that what pilots do?  Relay to each other and the tower what the current conditions are so that other pilots will get a heads up.  Himmelsbach was a WW2 pilot and flew his own plane while serving as an FBI agent.  Other agents up in Seattle are pilots.  Seasoned commercial pilots fly in and out of PDX all the time, knowing what the conditions might be during certain months of the year.   These are all good sources.  And if you want to hear about "gorge effect" winds barreling out of the Cascades, Georger might elaborate.  Or, not.

As I stated previously, I am well aware that the FBI has lawyers working in the organization.  I am also aware that they have pilots and a lot of people with other skills and talents.  But I don't think you are their spokesman.

The one point where Bohan's weather claims can be directly compared with actual measured weather is his landing at Portland.  Bohan claims about a 25-30 knot direct crosswind component.  The highest ground wind speed measured at Portland that day/night was only about 10 knots.  Can you explain where the rest of Bohan's wind came from?

I am well aware of what pilot's inflight weather reports consist of and their purpose.  But I do not believe in "faith based" weather claims.

Nor do I believe that there is a Great Ascended Weather Master who passes all his/her wisdom to his/her disciples and other true believers who must accept his/her claims without question.  And, of course, the claims of the GAWM cannot be measured by the National Weather Service.  Just believe them!

I have previously made it a point to take a good look at the topography of the Columbia River gorge in person.  I am not particularly impressed by its capability to channel high winds.  On the night of the hijacking, the surface wind was from the west and southwest and reported at about 10 knots at the Portland Airport.  It is at least 20 miles further east to the entrance to the Columbia River gorge.  Pasco, on the east end of that gorge, was also reporting surface winds of about 10 knots that evening.

Basically, the weather in Seattle, Portland, and further south the evening of the hijacking was relatively stable and improving.  There was a frontal passage earlier that day, but it was well past Seattle when the airliner left there.  But the clouds, overcasts, some rain showers, etc., that evening is not something that would pose a problem to an aircraft such as a 727.  So I would appreciate an explanation from Bohan about how he determined he had an 80 knot headwind from the south.

Robert99   
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #76 on: March 05, 2014, 03:28:43 PM »
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National Weather Service is a good place to start.  But there are other sources available.  And the best source just might be the "pilots who were    actually flying in the damn stuff."  Isn't that what pilots do?  Relay to each other and the tower what the current conditions are so that other pilots will get a heads up.  Himmelsbach was a WW2 pilot and flew his own plane while serving as an FBI agent.  Other agents up in Seattle are pilots.  Seasoned commercial pilots fly in and out of PDX all the time, knowing what the conditions might be during certain months of the year.   These are all good sources.  And if you want to hear about "gorge effect" winds barreling out of the Cascades, Georger might elaborate.  Or, not.

As I stated previously, I am well aware that the FBI has lawyers working in the organization.  I am also aware that they have pilots and a lot of people with other skills and talents.  But I don't think you are their spokesman.

The one point where Bohan's weather claims can be directly compared with actual measured weather is his landing at Portland.  Bohan claims about a 25-30 knot direct crosswind component.  The highest ground wind speed measured at Portland that day/night was only about 10 knots.  Can you explain where the rest of Bohan's wind came from?

I am well aware of what pilot's inflight weather reports consist of and their purpose.  But I do not believe in "faith based" weather claims.

Nor do I believe that there is a Great Ascended Weather Master who passes all his/her wisdom to his/her disciples and other true believers who must accept his/her claims without question.  And, of course, the claims of the GAWM cannot be measured by the National Weather Service.  Just believe them!

I have previously made it a point to take a good look at the topography of the Columbia River gorge in person.  I am not particularly impressed by its capability to channel high winds.  On the night of the hijacking, the surface wind was from the west and southwest and reported at about 10 knots at the Portland Airport.  It is at least 20 miles further east to the entrance to the Columbia River gorge.  Pasco, on the east end of that gorge, was also reporting surface winds of about 10 knots that evening.

Basically, the weather in Seattle, Portland, and further south the evening of the hijacking was relatively stable and improving.  There was a frontal passage earlier that day, but it was well past Seattle when the airliner left there.  But the clouds, overcasts, some rain showers, etc., that evening is not something that would pose a problem to an aircraft such as a 727.  So I would appreciate an explanation from Bohan about how he determined he had an 80 knot headwind from the south.

Robert99   

... and I havent seen anything in actual wx facts to warrant Bohan's report, either. I have
been very persistent about keeping the door open to anything that would ground Bohan's alleged
report ... but nothing has ever surfaced of a factual nature to lock down "Himmelsbach's"
comments regarding Bohan's remarks (in some meeting etc). Let's keep track of the fact where
this comes from - Himmelsbach! Not Bohan! It's Himmelsbach's claim(s). I even tried to talk to
people who knew Ken Hastings, Dir of the airport, supposedly Bohan's personal friend and thee
person to whom Bohan supposedly filed his report .... and nada. I got nowhere with nothing to
even document such a report was ever filed. And still I leave the door open ... but the door is
closing.

The irony of all of this to me is we don't even need some special 'winds' factor, if anything like
the Dawson FP is true, or if the jump time on the FBI/NWA map is extended (which at this point
isn't that difficult to do). Anything that brings Cooper closer to water, the drainage basin
feeding the Columbia, or the Columbia itself, increasing the chances (and helps explain) $money$
winding up at Tina Bar. Once anything gets within the hydrological zone that feeds Tina Bar,
finding money on Tina Bar is almost a slam-dunk.

It's facts we lack, not theories and scenarios.

Himmelsbach is the person who promulgated the story - not Bohan! Himmelsbach also said
"fragments at three feet". The fact a central figure like 'H' would even write a book about a
supposedly important case, supposedly still open and active - disturbs me! I guess some retired
guys are allowed to indulge?" The Portland office wasn't even in charge of the case!

 :)


 
« Last Edit: March 05, 2014, 03:43:08 PM by georger »
 

Offline hom

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #77 on: March 05, 2014, 08:48:06 PM »
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Hominid has emailed and I seem to have mischaracterised his remarks concerning Dawson.
His reference to "politician" was a joke. I failed to know that.

Hominid emailed today saying, quote: "There is just no independent evidence to support the
idea.  My comment about him being a politician was a joke."

I guess what Hominid is saying is 'there is no independent evidence to support Dawson's account.'

Thanks to Hominid. I hope I got that right! ??? :-X

This is the problem one sometimes runs into trying to speak for other people. Hominid is free to come speak for himself, of course. I invite him to.

Apologies to Hominid.

Thank you sir.  Apology accepted, but unnecessary.
 

Offline EVickiW

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #78 on: March 06, 2014, 08:47:14 PM »
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About four years ago, I ordered digital copies of the FAA's Low Altitude Enroute IFR maps L1 and L2 through the National Archives and a contractor who actually made the disks.  The maps were in effect on November 24, 1971 and contained the navigational information that the NWA airliner would be using on it flight from Seattle to Reno.

When the contractor sent me the disks, they would not initially work on my computer.  After quite a bit of work between the contractor and myself, we finally got the problem resolved.  I made duplicate disks of both maps and sent them to Sluggo and he in turn posted them on his web page.

Recently, I tried to make duplicate copies of my "archive disks" in order to send the maps to the WSHM.  But I have not been able to get any of the disks, which have worked in the past, to open.  No reason for this can be determined.  I am using the very same computer as before and only the normal upgrades to Windows 7 and to Internet Explorer 11 have been made.

I took the disks to one commercial shop and they told me the disks were corrupted.  I have no idea how that could have happened and doubt if it did.

Do any of you computer wizards have a suggestion for correcting this problem?

Robert,

Have you found a solution to the disk issues you are having?
You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.
 

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #79 on: March 06, 2014, 10:47:28 PM »
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About four years ago, I ordered digital copies of the FAA's Low Altitude Enroute IFR maps L1 and L2 through the National Archives and a contractor who actually made the disks.  The maps were in effect on November 24, 1971 and contained the navigational information that the NWA airliner would be using on it flight from Seattle to Reno.

When the contractor sent me the disks, they would not initially work on my computer.  After quite a bit of work between the contractor and myself, we finally got the problem resolved.  I made duplicate disks of both maps and sent them to Sluggo and he in turn posted them on his web page.

Recently, I tried to make duplicate copies of my "archive disks" in order to send the maps to the WSHM.  But I have not been able to get any of the disks, which have worked in the past, to open.  No reason for this can be determined.  I am using the very same computer as before and only the normal upgrades to Windows 7 and to Internet Explorer 11 have been made.

I took the disks to one commercial shop and they told me the disks were corrupted.  I have no idea how that could have happened and doubt if it did.

Do any of you computer wizards have a suggestion for correcting this problem?

Robert,

Have you found a solution to the disk issues you are having?

Vicki,

I haven't resolved the issue yet but I think it is going to be me, or at least my computer.  I have about 15 DVDs related to those maps and I cannot open a single one of them.  So I think it is safe to say the problem is on my computer and got there sometime after I sent copies of the map DVDs to Sluggo.  It you want to look at the maps, you can do so at Sluggo's web page.

In the meantime, as soon as I get a pile of paper in the mail headed east, I plan to visit the firm in Tucson that worked up the disks that I sent to Sluggo.  I have copies of those disks and if my guess is correct, they will open when put back on that firm's computer system.  If my guess is confirmed, I'll either have them make additional copies of the disks or send some people the actual disks that I now have.

Anyway, I have large print outs of the maps courtesy of the Tucson firm.  Once I get some of the map disks to people as I have promised, I'll not even bother trying to put them back on my machine.  Those disks were problems from the day they arrived from the National Archives contractor and I am fed up with the (bleep) things.  I'll let you know what happens in Tucson.

Robert99
 

Offline EVickiW

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #80 on: March 06, 2014, 10:53:34 PM »
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About four years ago, I ordered digital copies of the FAA's Low Altitude Enroute IFR maps L1 and L2 through the National Archives and a contractor who actually made the disks.  The maps were in effect on November 24, 1971 and contained the navigational information that the NWA airliner would be using on it flight from Seattle to Reno.

When the contractor sent me the disks, they would not initially work on my computer.  After quite a bit of work between the contractor and myself, we finally got the problem resolved.  I made duplicate disks of both maps and sent them to Sluggo and he in turn posted them on his web page.

Recently, I tried to make duplicate copies of my "archive disks" in order to send the maps to the WSHM.  But I have not been able to get any of the disks, which have worked in the past, to open.  No reason for this can be determined.  I am using the very same computer as before and only the normal upgrades to Windows 7 and to Internet Explorer 11 have been made.

I took the disks to one commercial shop and they told me the disks were corrupted.  I have no idea how that could have happened and doubt if it did.

Do any of you computer wizards have a suggestion for correcting this problem?

Robert,

Have you found a solution to the disk issues you are having?

Vicki,

I haven't resolved the issue yet but I think it is going to be me, or at least my computer.  I have about 15 DVDs related to those maps and I cannot open a single one of them.  So I think it is safe to say the problem is on my computer and got there sometime after I sent copies of the map DVDs to Sluggo.  It you want to look at the maps, you can do so at Sluggo's web page.

In the meantime, as soon as I get a pile of paper in the mail headed east, I plan to visit the firm in Tucson that worked up the disks that I sent to Sluggo.  I have copies of those disks and if my guess is correct, they will open when put back on that firm's computer system.  If my guess is confirmed, I'll either have them make additional copies of the disks or send some people the actual disks that I now have.

Anyway, I have large print outs of the maps courtesy of the Tucson firm.  Once I get some of the map disks to people as I have promised, I'll not even bother trying to put them back on my machine.  Those disks were problems from the day they arrived from the National Archives contractor and I am fed up with the (bleep) things.  I'll let you know what happens in Tucson.

Robert99

Did Sluggo use all the images from the disks on his webpage? If so, copy the images from his site and put them into a folder on your desktop. Once in the folder you can write a new disc.

If that does not work, then good luck in Tuscon!
You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.
 

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #81 on: March 06, 2014, 11:10:19 PM »
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About four years ago, I ordered digital copies of the FAA's Low Altitude Enroute IFR maps L1 and L2 through the National Archives and a contractor who actually made the disks.  The maps were in effect on November 24, 1971 and contained the navigational information that the NWA airliner would be using on it flight from Seattle to Reno.

When the contractor sent me the disks, they would not initially work on my computer.  After quite a bit of work between the contractor and myself, we finally got the problem resolved.  I made duplicate disks of both maps and sent them to Sluggo and he in turn posted them on his web page.

Recently, I tried to make duplicate copies of my "archive disks" in order to send the maps to the WSHM.  But I have not been able to get any of the disks, which have worked in the past, to open.  No reason for this can be determined.  I am using the very same computer as before and only the normal upgrades to Windows 7 and to Internet Explorer 11 have been made.

I took the disks to one commercial shop and they told me the disks were corrupted.  I have no idea how that could have happened and doubt if it did.

Do any of you computer wizards have a suggestion for correcting this problem?

Robert,

Have you found a solution to the disk issues you are having?

Vicki,

I haven't resolved the issue yet but I think it is going to be me, or at least my computer.  I have about 15 DVDs related to those maps and I cannot open a single one of them.  So I think it is safe to say the problem is on my computer and got there sometime after I sent copies of the map DVDs to Sluggo.  It you want to look at the maps, you can do so at Sluggo's web page.

In the meantime, as soon as I get a pile of paper in the mail headed east, I plan to visit the firm in Tucson that worked up the disks that I sent to Sluggo.  I have copies of those disks and if my guess is correct, they will open when put back on that firm's computer system.  If my guess is confirmed, I'll either have them make additional copies of the disks or send some people the actual disks that I now have.

Anyway, I have large print outs of the maps courtesy of the Tucson firm.  Once I get some of the map disks to people as I have promised, I'll not even bother trying to put them back on my machine.  Those disks were problems from the day they arrived from the National Archives contractor and I am fed up with the (bleep) things.  I'll let you know what happens in Tucson.

Robert99

Did Sluggo use all the images from the disks on his webpage? If so, copy the images from his site and put them into a folder on your desktop. Once in the folder you can write a new disc.

If that does not work, then good luck in Tuscon!

My understanding is that Sluggo did put online everything that was on the disks.  However, he had to slice up the maps due to a size problem but everything is there.
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #82 on: March 06, 2014, 11:23:40 PM »
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About four years ago, I ordered digital copies of the FAA's Low Altitude Enroute IFR maps L1 and L2 through the National Archives and a contractor who actually made the disks.  The maps were in effect on November 24, 1971 and contained the navigational information that the NWA airliner would be using on it flight from Seattle to Reno.

When the contractor sent me the disks, they would not initially work on my computer.  After quite a bit of work between the contractor and myself, we finally got the problem resolved.  I made duplicate disks of both maps and sent them to Sluggo and he in turn posted them on his web page.

Recently, I tried to make duplicate copies of my "archive disks" in order to send the maps to the WSHM.  But I have not been able to get any of the disks, which have worked in the past, to open.  No reason for this can be determined.  I am using the very same computer as before and only the normal upgrades to Windows 7 and to Internet Explorer 11 have been made.

I took the disks to one commercial shop and they told me the disks were corrupted.  I have no idea how that could have happened and doubt if it did.

Do any of you computer wizards have a suggestion for correcting this problem?

Robert,

Have you found a solution to the disk issues you are having?

Vicki,

I haven't resolved the issue yet but I think it is going to be me, or at least my computer.  I have about 15 DVDs related to those maps and I cannot open a single one of them.  So I think it is safe to say the problem is on my computer and got there sometime after I sent copies of the map DVDs to Sluggo.  It you want to look at the maps, you can do so at Sluggo's web page.

In the meantime, as soon as I get a pile of paper in the mail headed east, I plan to visit the firm in Tucson that worked up the disks that I sent to Sluggo.  I have copies of those disks and if my guess is correct, they will open when put back on that firm's computer system.  If my guess is confirmed, I'll either have them make additional copies of the disks or send some people the actual disks that I now have.

Anyway, I have large print outs of the maps courtesy of the Tucson firm.  Once I get some of the map disks to people as I have promised, I'll not even bother trying to put them back on my machine.  Those disks were problems from the day they arrived from the National Archives contractor and I am fed up with the (bleep) things.  I'll let you know what happens in Tucson.

Robert99

will they copy?

what is the file format? what software normally opens them?


 

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #83 on: March 07, 2014, 12:20:08 AM »
Vicki & Georger,

The disks resulted from me contacting the National Archives in D.C. and asking if they had a very specific piece of paper.  Each side of the paper had a map on it.  After determining that they did have those maps in their files, the National Archives told me to contact one of their contractors (they supplied a list) and have the selected contractor make a digital copy of each map.

I elected to buy the digital map disks only, I passed on a printed copy, from the contractor.  I could not open the first two copies of the map disks they sent me.  After changing the file formats (to what I don't remember at this point), the third disk would open on my machine.  After taking a look at the maps on the disk, I decided to have large paper copies (about 2/3 of the original size) made and that was done by a firm in Tucson.

The Tucson firm also gave me disks containing copies of their finished product.  I reproduced copies of those disks on my machine using Roxio Easy CD & DVD Burning software and sent copies to Sluggo and he apparently did not have any problems with them except for their exceptionally large size.  I have not done anything with those disks since Sluggo put them on his web page.  It is possible that I also gave copies to another person but I don't specifically remember it.

So Sluggo's copies were reproduced on my machine about four years ago and I was probably running Windows Vista and the latest version of IE at that time.  When Windows 7 came out, I immediately upgraded to the Ultimate version of it and at the present time have IE 11 on this machine.

My guess is that the Roxio software I have didn't get upgraded to Windows 7 and IE 11.  Recently, the disks would not open or copy.  So I removed the Roxio program a few days ago and don't plan to install it again.  I'll let the people in Tucson figure it out.   
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #84 on: March 15, 2014, 07:49:30 PM »
I don't know if everyone seen the video I made of the first 4 minutes of flight 305. I was testing all my systems, fraps recorder, Sony Vegas Movie Maker, and obviously the simulator. the time was not set to nite time for visual purposes. the cloud coverage wasn't set either. the temps, and were set to what I believe to be correct. the other purpose was to show the impossibility to the travel time that is on the transcripts.



 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #85 on: March 16, 2014, 10:27:40 AM »
I watched the video with Clyde Lewis at the Ariel Tavern. Dona Elliot says she heard a plane, but didn't see it. she also claimed you couldn't see across the street. she is claiming the plane was miles off V23 flying east of Amboy. how many other planes were in this area. could she of heard a plane flying outside of 305's area for safety?





 

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #86 on: March 16, 2014, 12:34:58 PM »
Within minutes after NWA 305 took off and headed south on V-23, the Seattle Tower released other aircraft for take off.  Captain Bohan states that he took off for Portland four minutes after NWA 305 took off.  However it is unlikely that Bohan was cleared down V-23.  In all probability he took V-23E, which is now known as V-495, straight to the Battleground VORTAC (formerly known as the Portland VORTAC).  Since Bohan was landing at Portland, he would be descending to a lower altitude as he approached the Battleground VORTAC.  Consequently, the people living under the V-23E airway would probably have noticed some lower flying aircraft headed into Portland from a more easterly direction.  But there is no reason to believe that she heard NWA 305.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2014, 01:00:37 PM by Robert99 »
 

Offline smokin99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #87 on: March 16, 2014, 12:45:55 PM »
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I watched the video with Clyde Lewis at the Ariel Tavern. Dona Elliot says she heard a plane, but didn't see it. she also claimed you couldn't see across the street. she is claiming the plane was miles off V23 flying east of Amboy. how many other planes were in this area. could she of heard a plane flying outside of 305's area for safety?




I have no opinion yet on Elliot's story, but on the flight path -- isn't it interesting that with all of the fracas surrounding radar and satellites and the disappearance of a certain 777 in 2014 with all of our 21st century technology, why anyone would not entertain the notion that a radar flight path from 1971 might possibly, just possibly, be in error?   8)
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #88 on: March 16, 2014, 01:07:21 PM »
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I watched the video with Clyde Lewis at the Ariel Tavern. Dona Elliot says she heard a plane, but didn't see it. she also claimed you couldn't see across the street. she is claiming the plane was miles off V23 flying east of Amboy. how many other planes were in this area. could she of heard a plane flying outside of 305's area for safety?




I have no opinion yet on Elliot's story, but on the flight path -- isn't it interesting that with all of the fracas surrounding radar and satellites and the disappearance of a certain 777 in 2014 with all of our 21st century technology, why anyone would not entertain the notion that a radar flight path from 1971 might possibly, just possibly, be in error?   8)


the whole thing might be accurate, but human error seems to be the fault. when the FBI say the "supposed flight path" you have to wonder how they came to there conclusions. the easterly path doesn't seem to line up. they would waste fuel getting back to V23. anything is possible, but I believe a westerly path is more accurate than eastward.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #89 on: March 16, 2014, 01:14:53 PM »
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Within minutes after NWA 305 took off and headed south on V-23, the Seattle Tower released other aircraft for take off.  Captain Bohan states that he took off for Portland four minutes after NWA 305 took off.  However it is unlikely that Bohan was cleared down V-23.  In all probability he took V-23E, which is now known as V-495, straight to the Battleground VORTAC (formerly known as the Portland VORTAC).  Since Bohan was landing at Portland, he would be descending to a lower altitude as he approached the Battleground VORTAC.  Consequently, the people living under the V-23E airway would probably have noticed some lower flying aircraft headed into Portland from a more easterly direction.  But there is no reason to believe that she heard NWA 305.


Do you think it's possible she heard Bohan's flight the evening? she also claims the weather was horrible which doesn't match either. I notice Clyde Lewis wasn't to familiar with the flight path, or failed to note the time the plane was at 7000.