Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 175506 times)

Offline DungeonsWizard

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #60 on: March 04, 2014, 03:57:38 AM »
If you post the coordinates in degrees, minutes, and seconds it's easier to locate on Google map
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #61 on: March 04, 2014, 06:20:38 AM »
The handle for the stairs is located at the top of the stairs to the left. I would guess the placard would be near this location. I question the amount of wind that could enter this area to cause the card the to come off. that'a why I tossed the idea of Cooper ripping it down in frustration to get the stairs down.

I'm not sure how it was attached. looking at the photo it appears it might have been attached by screws/pop rivets etc. look at the upper right portion of the placard, it looks as if something was holding it in place in the corners.
 

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #62 on: March 04, 2014, 11:46:34 AM »
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If you post the coordinates in degrees, minutes, and seconds it's easier to locate on Google map

If you know what longitude and latitude are then you should be able to convert fractions of a degree into minutes (there are 60 minutes in a degree) and then fractions of a minute into seconds (there are 60 seconds in a minute).

Otherwise, PM Meyer Louie and ask him to explain it.  He is a mathematics professor.
 

Coopsnoop

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #63 on: March 04, 2014, 03:22:44 PM »
R99: 

Appreciate you weighing in with your skills and abilities.  Between you, Georger (the college physics professor) and Louie (the college math professor) something ought to get figured out.   But I will challenge you on a couple things.  You say Bohan's reporting is not relevant.  And that the previously discussed weather reports over PDX contradicts extraneous factors.  Have you interviewed anyone who knew Bohan or flew with Bohan as a Continental 727 pilot?   And, which weather reports do you have direct knowledge of?  If you are relying strictly on what has been discussed already, you may not have "all" the info.  Georger might tend to agree with this.  Georger's earlier discussion about 305 flying over Haydon Island is pretty much right on.  But you can debate with Georger all you want.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #64 on: March 04, 2014, 04:27:40 PM »
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R99: 

  You say Bohan's reporting is not relevant.  And that the previously discussed weather reports over PDX contradicts extraneous factors.  Have you interviewed anyone who knew Bohan or flew with Bohan as a Continental 727 pilot?


I spoke with Capt Bohan's widow several years ago. She lives in thier Aberdeen, WA home, and the good captain died about ten years ago. His widow was unable to give me any details on the cross wind issue, nor the important question of how and why Bohan's Continental flight was allowed to creep up on 305 and be only four minutes behind.

Other planes were kept on the ground for hours, according to one pilot Sail and I spoke with, Everett Johnson.  Something seems fishy here.

The widow said that her husband kept great records and she remembers the Nov 24, 1971 incident very well, and she said her husband spoke of it often.  She was going to send me a copy of her husband's log, but she never did and I let the matter drop. Snowmman also helped me immeasurably on this by getting me Bohan's contact info.
 

Coopsnoop

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #65 on: March 04, 2014, 05:50:00 PM »
now yur talking, Uncle Brucie.  there were three in that Continental 727 cockpit.  maybe Snow knows the other two?  widow was a Continental flight attendant.
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #66 on: March 04, 2014, 05:57:45 PM »
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R99: 

Appreciate you weighing in with your skills and abilities.  Between you, Georger (the college physics professor) and Louie (the college math professor) something ought to get figured out.   But I will challenge you on a couple things.  You say Bohan's reporting is not relevant.  And that the previously discussed weather reports over PDX contradicts extraneous factors.  Have you interviewed anyone who knew Bohan or flew with Bohan as a Continental 727 pilot?   And, which weather reports do you have direct knowledge of?  If you are relying strictly on what has been discussed already, you may not have "all" the info.  Georger might tend to agree with this.  Georger's earlier discussion about 305 flying over Haydon Island is pretty much right on.  But you can debate with Georger all you want.

Hayden Island flyover - how so 'right on'? Specify how and why it is 'right on' .... Im not sure what
you're talking about, seriously.
 
Second, I'm going to toss this out: The T33 intercept neat Lake Oswego.  We know the place, the
area. Don't we have a pretty good idea of the time this intercept had to occur, from several
different angles? Which flight path best favors that T33 intercept window? (a) Dawson fp, (b) FBI
fp , or (c) East route?

I think R99 probably has an opinion about this?

BTW, just for the sake of saying it, don't anyone get the idea that Galen and I are joined at the
hip  on any of these issues ... in case I need to say this. I think Galen will agree -

 
   
« Last Edit: March 04, 2014, 06:09:51 PM by georger »
 

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #67 on: March 04, 2014, 06:05:27 PM »
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R99: 

Appreciate you weighing in with your skills and abilities.  Between you, Georger (the college physics professor) and Louie (the college math professor) something ought to get figured out.   But I will challenge you on a couple things.  You say Bohan's reporting is not relevant.  And that the previously discussed weather reports over PDX contradicts extraneous factors.  Have you interviewed anyone who knew Bohan or flew with Bohan as a Continental 727 pilot?   And, which weather reports do you have direct knowledge of?  If you are relying strictly on what has been discussed already, you may not have "all" the info.  Georger might tend to agree with this.  Georger's earlier discussion about 305 flying over Haydon Island is pretty much right on.  But you can debate with Georger all you want.

Coopsnoop and Bruce Smith:

The story about Captain Bohan's claiming an 80 knot head wind from the south at 14,000 feet and about a 25-30 knot direct crosswind on landing is only reported in Himmelsbach's book to the best of my knowledge.

Regardless of what the winds were for Bohan at 14,000 feet, they were much, much less than that at 10,000 feet where NWA 305 was flying.  If NWA 305 had a headwind anywhere near 80 knots, it would not have been able to get to Reno that night.

I have not interviewed anyone who knew Bohan and that is not necessary.  The FBI obtained copies of all available weather information for Portland for that evening and it included such things as the hourly sequence reports (actual measured weather information) for all stations in the Northwest part of the country, forecasts of clouds and winds for the entire region, etc.. That information was posted on the DZ Cooper thread that is now closed plus it was repeated on the current DZ Cooper thread.  Hominid and Georger also have that information.

Since the Portland International Airport was the location of the local National Weather Service Station, the very same information that was recorded there for aviation was used by such outlets as the Weather Underground on their web page.  You can check their web page for the information for November 24, 1971.  You can also check the Portland newspapers weather reports for that date since they also used the same information.

There are statements in the Seattle ground transcripts from the tower just before NWA 305 took off that they were going to let other aircraft start taking off just as soon as NWA 305 got clear of the Seattle airport traffic.  Bohan's statement about being four minutes behind the airliner means to me that he took off four minutes after the airliner.

In all probability, Bohan would head to Portland down Victor Airway 23E which is direct from the Seattle VORTAC to what is now the Battleground VORTAC.  Consequently, Bohan would not be following NWA 305 down the same airway.  And Bohan probably was travelling twice as fast as NWA 305 during their flights.  That means that Bohan was probably already at the gate in Portland by the time NWA 305 was passing the area.

The actual measured weather in the Portland area trumps all other claimed sources.  Bohan's story is just not supported by actual facts.

Robert99

 
 

Coopsnoop

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #68 on: March 04, 2014, 08:16:54 PM »
Georger and I are definitely not joined at the hip.  But we sure agree on "one thing."      Sorry, R99.  Who's "actual facts" r u talking about?   Maybe you only have "some" of the actual facts.   Or, maybe you have all of the speculated "actual facts," produced by others.  The FBI had some pretty sharp cookies in 1971, with your degrees and more.  They thought they had all the actual facts.  They haven't solved the case yet.
 

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #69 on: March 04, 2014, 08:43:30 PM »
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Georger and I are definitely not joined at the hip.  But we sure agree on "one thing."      Sorry, R99.  Who's "actual facts" r u talking about?   Maybe you only have "some" of the actual facts.   Or, maybe you have all of the speculated "actual facts," produced by others.  The FBI had some pretty sharp cookies in 1971, with your degrees and more.  They thought they had all the actual facts.  They haven't solved the case yet.

I am talking about the actual weather facts measured at Portland International Airport on November 24, 1971 by the good old United States National Weather Service.  Where do your "facts" come from?

I'll also bet that the FBI had personnel in their Seattle and Portland offices in 1971 that had law degrees equivalent to yours and more.

And, as you say, they haven't solved the case yet either.

Robert99
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #70 on: March 04, 2014, 11:24:02 PM »
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Thanks Georger, I ran several tests from Toledo to Hayden Island (west point). I used two different planes in the test. the first was a cirrus jet. it's small and easy to fly. not a lot of bells and whistles with it. the second plane was a 727-100 of course.

I started the flight several miles short of Toledo, once over that position, I started the clock. at approx. 8:10 I was over the Woodland area, and by 8:14 I was over Tena Bar. Now, does this really prove anything? not really. the problem is the plane was basically flying south during the hijacking, even with some turns in the dropzone area, it's hard to say this path is right. basically you could move the flight path east or west and come up with the same numbers, but when you have evidence of a certain point that calculates. it can leave unanswered questions. you have Robert99 giving logical calculations, we have documentation from a Major in the Air Force speaking, and we have mystery money lying in a strange place with different opinions like the flight path itself.

do I believe this could be true? perhaps, but the only way to find out is to investigate the theory. perhaps Hominid will key in. he always likes the topic of the flight path.

Added: one thing left out here is the placard location.

Hominid and I have spoken at length about Dawson's theory and I feel very safe in saying
Hominid rejects it as political and not credible.

My bias has to be toward R99's calculations ... pending something stronger.

Hominid has emailed and I seem to have mischaracterised his remarks concerning Dawson.
His reference to "politician" was a joke. I failed to know that.

Hominid emailed today saying, quote: "There is just no independent evidence to support the
idea.  My comment about him being a politician was a joke."

I guess what Hominid is saying is 'there is no independent evidence to support Dawson's account.'

Thanks to Hominid. I hope I got that right! ??? :-X

This is the problem one sometimes runs into trying to speak for other people. Hominid is free to come speak for himself, of course. I invite him to.

Apologies to Hominid.
 
« Last Edit: March 04, 2014, 11:32:44 PM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #71 on: March 05, 2014, 02:51:15 AM »
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BTW, just for the sake of saying it, don't anyone get the idea that Galen and I are joined at the
hip  on any of these issues ... in case I need to say this. I think Galen will agree -


G, I can't imagine you ever being joined at a hip with anyone, even after reconstructive surgery.

(smile).
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #72 on: March 05, 2014, 02:56:10 AM »
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BTW, just for the sake of saying it, don't anyone get the idea that Galen and I are joined at the
hip  on any of these issues ... in case I need to say this. I think Galen will agree -


G, I can't imagine you ever being joined at a hip with anyone, even after reconstructive surgery.

(smile).

Some would question that ...  ;)
 

Coopsnoop

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #73 on: March 05, 2014, 03:44:10 AM »
National Weather Service is a good place to start.  But there are other sources available.  And the best source just might be the "pilots who were    actually flying in the damn stuff."  Isn't that what pilots do?  Relay to each other and the tower what the current conditions are so that other pilots will get a heads up.  Himmelsbach was a WW2 pilot and flew his own plane while serving as an FBI agent.  Other agents up in Seattle are pilots.  Seasoned commercial pilots fly in and out of PDX all the time, knowing what the conditions might be during certain months of the year.   These are all good sources.  And if you want to hear about "gorge effect" winds barreling out of the Cascades, Georger might elaborate.  Or, not.
 

Coopsnoop

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #74 on: March 05, 2014, 03:47:22 AM »
Georger, I'll send you an e-mail on Hayden Island flyover.