Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 184877 times)

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #45 on: March 02, 2014, 04:38:50 PM »
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R99:

Why do you suppose Flight #305 dog-legged around PDX from the East to the West and back to the East?

That "dog-legged" or "segmented circle" around the west side of Portland from what is now the Battleground VORTAC is NOT something that would have been done on that flight by that flight crew.

While on the ground in Seattle, the flight crew mentioned some possible "alternatives" to flying down Victor 23.  They had been informed that the Chief FAA Psychologist had predicted that Cooper would take a hostage with him and then blow up the airliner as they jumped.  Consequently, the crew did not want to fly over a densely inhabited area if they could avoid it.

When the airliner reached the Mayfield (now Malay) Intersection near Toledo, the most logical thing for them to do would be to head almost straight south and rejoin Victor 23 at or near the Canby Intersection.  If they did that, they would pass almost directly over Tina Bar.

If the precise flight path was available, and it should be in the un-redacted Seattle ATC transcripts, and if it supports the straight line bypass on the west side of Portland, then Cooper's jump point can easily be pinpointed.  At the same time, as I have pointed out previously, the geographical and topographical characteristics of Tina Bar are so unique that they have a real story to tell.  And that story may include evidence that Cooper died in the jump as a no-pull.

Just from a general inspection of Georger's photography of the Tina Bar area, plus topographical information, it is obvious to me that Cooper could not have jumped at a point north (or downstream) of Tina Bar or further south (upstream) than the Flushing Channel to Vancouver Lake.  And he probably landed on solid ground but very close to the east Columbia River shoreline.

There is also evidence on the so-called FBI maps that support a straight line bypass of Portland on the west side.  In addition, the National Guard T-33, the USAF F-106s, and Himmelsbach and his helicopter all headed to the southwest side of Portland.

If the un-redacted Seattle ATC transcripts aren't made available within a reasonable time, I will expand on the above as much as the available data permits.

Actually, at this point in time, there seems to be very little related to the redactions that is not known except for the exact times and aircraft locations that are necessary to determine an accurate flight path.

Did anyone ever ask Rataczak or Anderson about their flight path as they passed Portland?

Robert99

And a straight line from Toledo to the west side of Portland is exactly what Dawson (and others)
reported happened - specifically: straight line from Toledo to the west side of Portland, crossed
the Columbia across the tip of Hayden island,  T33 intercept near Oswego south of Portland -
see attached. The problem is nobody accepts Dawson's account, and there is no logical reason
why the NWA search map and the Dawson account would diverge; money and time and
investigative man hours and finding Cooper were at stake! There has to be a compelling
reason why the two accounts would differ so much.

Shutter tried the Dawson fp in his simulator and I think he liked the Transcript time-match results?
Shutter can explain his thoughts -

Hominid thinks the Dawson fp was a "political" statement and not true.

Rataczak says 'I am the only living person who knows what the flight path was'! So why not just
say what it was?

The NWA/FBI fp does offer the option of Cooper bailing later in time, than reported. 8:11 can
rather easily be extended to 8:13 or even 8:15 (perhaps) by one excuse or another: even
Rataczak says the bump happened 5-10mins after our last contact with Cooper at 8:05. That
creates a window 8:10-8:15. We also know that Rat's reports about their last contact with
Cooper is not the whole truth! Both Rataczak and Anderson have privately said Cooper called
forward after 8:05 with an additional demand: "Slow the plane...". Does this added fact extend
the drop window further, to say 8:10-8:16/17/18? Now Anderson adds a new fact! After
the bump "we discussed it before reporting it - Rat then called it in to NWA". Does this extend the
window further to say 8:20? By the time you add these extensions in, after deciding which are
allowable and which are not based on some subjective process, now you are closer to the
Columbia River on the NWA/FBI flight path map, and Cooper and his money could conceivably wind
up in the water, with some remnant of money eventually winding up at _ Tina Bar.

Let me attach the Dawson article if I can _
   
*Please make note of the fact I am NOT discussing the money find here - that can be done in the
Money section, and I think that is what Shutter intends. The money find is a complex story which
deserves treatment on its own independent of flight path considerations, imho.

 
« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 05:19:40 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #46 on: March 02, 2014, 05:50:49 PM »
Thanks Georger, I ran several tests from Toledo to Hayden Island (west point). I used two different planes in the test. the first was a cirrus jet. it's small and easy to fly. not a lot of bells and whistles with it. the second plane was a 727-100 of course.

I started the flight several miles short of Toledo, once over that position, I started the clock. at approx. 8:10 I was over the Woodland area, and by 8:14 I was over Tena Bar. Now, does this really prove anything? not really. the problem is the plane was basically flying south during the hijacking, even with some turns in the dropzone area, it's hard to say this path is right. basically you could move the flight path east or west and come up with the same numbers, but when you have evidence of a certain point that calculates. it can leave unanswered questions. you have Robert99 giving logical calculations, we have documentation from a Major in the Air Force speaking, and we have mystery money lying in a strange place with different opinions like the flight path itself.

do I believe this could be true? perhaps, but the only way to find out is to investigate the theory. perhaps Hominid will key in. he always likes the topic of the flight path.

Added: one thing left out here is the placard location.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 06:39:02 PM by shutter »
 

Coopsnoop

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #47 on: March 02, 2014, 07:55:26 PM »
Placard found in 78 just south of Silver Lake, right on flight path.  Georger, or an airline pilot, might be better qualified to answer the question about distance/times between points, R99.  However, Bohan's flight approach into PDX is very important to case.  It goes to question of wind patterns at time of Cooper's jump.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #48 on: March 02, 2014, 08:09:23 PM »
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Placard found in 78 just south of Silver Lake, right on flight path.  Georger, or an airline pilot, might be better qualified to answer the question about distance/times between points, R99.  However, Bohan's flight approach into PDX is very important to case.  It goes to question of wind patterns at time of Cooper's jump.

Understood snoop. I was adding the fact of the location of the placard to Dawson's story. they don't match if you shoot straight down from Toledo. you might be under estimating what my simulator can do. I have answered some question R99 has had in the past pertaining to distance. it's a valuable tool in our arsenal.
 

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #49 on: March 02, 2014, 09:20:49 PM »
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Placard found in 78 just south of Silver Lake, right on flight path.  Georger, or an airline pilot, might be better qualified to answer the question about distance/times between points, R99.  However, Bohan's flight approach into PDX is very important to case.  It goes to question of wind patterns at time of Cooper's jump.

Actually, without beating my chest and letting out with my Tarzan yell and with all due respect to Georger and any airline or other pilots on this thread, I might suggest in all modesty that I am better qualified to answer the questions about the distances and times between the points and other navigational aspects of the Cooper flight.

I have an aeronautical engineering degree, specializing in flight dynamics (performance and stability and control), plus two additional college degrees.  I learned to fly starting at the age of 15 and was rated in general aviation and sports type aircraft.  I also had Advanced and Instrument Ground Instructor Ratings, which means that I was rated to teach people preparing for commercial flying ratings and instrument flying ratings.  I also have a limited number of skydiver type parachute jumps which were made 50 years ago just as skydiving started to become a recognized sport. I am now retired from all of the above.

To put the Cooper matter in perspective, it is a two-bit crime that should have been solved by the end of 1971.  If Cooper had survived the jump, he probably would have been caught easily within a week.  But he disappeared by sheer chance and the "experts" pointed the search people to the wrong area.

Calculating the flight path of the hijacked airliner is not brain surgery.  It is not even rocket science.  Even a teenage pilot should be able to do a good job at figuring it out. But accurate data, such as the Seattle ATC transcripts with embedded time hacks and controller phone talk, are needed to produce meaningful results.  Unfortunately, those things were redacted from the Seattle ATC transcripts.

But thanks to the efforts of Georger and others, the cockpit conversations and other related items are now known.  Very little, if anything at all, other than the flight path information remains unknown from the redacted transcripts.  So what is the point in not releasing the un-redacted transcripts if a resolution of the Cooper hijacking is actually desired?

Bohan's flight has no relevance to the Cooper flight.  The winds that Bohan reported are not substantiated by the actual measured weather.  For instance, Bohan reported he made a landing at Portland with about a 25 to 30 knot crosswind.  The actual top wind speed measured at Portland International Airport that day was only about 10 knots.

The data and assumptions I used in calculating the point where the placard could have separated from the airliner are given in those calculations on Tom Kaye's web page.  I made ever effort to be "conservative", that is, the placard had to have travelled at least the distance given, but may well have travelled further.  Even the shortest distance it travelled was west of the centerline of Victor 23.  Also, the actual wind speeds and directions for the descent of the placard are still not known.

That is one of the reasons why the actual flight path of the airliner is needed.  Once the actual flight path is known, then the winds aloft speeds and directions can also be calculated.  And the placard problem can be redone with more accurate data and results. 

Robert99
« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 09:36:41 PM by Robert99 »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #50 on: March 03, 2014, 02:25:51 AM »
Quote
Did anyone ever ask Rataczak or Anderson about their flight path as they passed Portland?

Robert99


I spoke with Rataczak for 70 minutes in 2009.  It was my only correspondence with him.  He told me various things about the flight path, including that it's an "enigma," but he also said that he was east of Victor 23, and blown there by the wind.

I never asked him about his location over Portland, specifically, though.

I recall him telling me that Cooper jumped at 8:13, and was adamant about it with me. However, I didn't write it down in my notes, as I didn't know the time was so controversial and critical.

Bill has declined all further communication with me.
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #51 on: March 03, 2014, 03:07:57 AM »
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Quote
Did anyone ever ask Rataczak or Anderson about their flight path as they passed Portland?

Robert99

I spoke with Rataczak for 70 minutes in 2009.  It was my only correspondence with him.  He told me various things about the flight path, including that it's an "enigma," but he also said that he was east of Victor 23, and blown there by the wind.

I never asked him about his location over Portland, specifically, though.

I recall him telling me that Cooper jumped at 8:13, and was adamant about it with me. However, I didn't write it down in my notes, as I didn't know the time was so controversial and critical.

Bill has declined all further communication with me.

Well, quite obviously the FBI's flight path map does not confirm an east route.  And what wind
would have blown the plane off by a large amount? Moreover, he has not told others what you
say he told you ... and other important spokes-people who were involved flatly reject this east
route theory
.

There is a million things I could say here. An east route does not conform with other documented
facts. I'll leave it at that.





 
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #52 on: March 03, 2014, 03:15:40 AM »
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Thanks Georger, I ran several tests from Toledo to Hayden Island (west point). I used two different planes in the test. the first was a cirrus jet. it's small and easy to fly. not a lot of bells and whistles with it. the second plane was a 727-100 of course.

I started the flight several miles short of Toledo, once over that position, I started the clock. at approx. 8:10 I was over the Woodland area, and by 8:14 I was over Tena Bar. Now, does this really prove anything? not really. the problem is the plane was basically flying south during the hijacking, even with some turns in the dropzone area, it's hard to say this path is right. basically you could move the flight path east or west and come up with the same numbers, but when you have evidence of a certain point that calculates. it can leave unanswered questions. you have Robert99 giving logical calculations, we have documentation from a Major in the Air Force speaking, and we have mystery money lying in a strange place with different opinions like the flight path itself.

do I believe this could be true? perhaps, but the only way to find out is to investigate the theory. perhaps Hominid will key in. he always likes the topic of the flight path.

Added: one thing left out here is the placard location.

Hominid and I have spoken at length about Dawson's theory and I feel very safe in saying
Hominid rejects it as political and not credible.

My bias has to be toward R99's calculations ... pending something stronger. 
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #53 on: March 03, 2014, 05:58:03 PM »
'Hominid and I have spoken at length about Dawson's theory and I feel very safe in saying
Hominid rejects it as political and not credible."

what would Dawson gain by saying this for political reasons, or why would he say this?
 

Offline smokin99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #54 on: March 03, 2014, 09:05:14 PM »
Re: the placard.

With the storms and flooding that would have occurred within the two time periods, why is it assumed that the placard was found in 1979 in the same place that it landed in 1971? Under the right circumstances, a lot of ground could be covered in that time period.

I understand that sometimes you just have to take things at face value in order to get things done, and we have some back up to make assumptions for the placard spot with the known flight path - is that it? or is there another reason why the location of the placard is considered to be a given?
 

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #55 on: March 03, 2014, 09:33:42 PM »
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Re: the placard.

With the storms and flooding that would have occurred within the two time periods, why is it assumed that the placard was found in 1979 in the same place that it landed in 1971? Under the right circumstances, a lot of ground could be covered in that time period.

I understand that sometimes you just have to take things at face value in order to get things done, and we have some back up to make assumptions for the placard spot with the known flight path - is that it? or is there another reason why the location of the placard is considered to be a given?


Good question, the whole placard thing bothers me from get go. how did it get out of the plane. did Cooper rip it off the wall while trying to operate the stairs, and once he was out on the stairs it came out? that's to early into the time of the jump 8:04-5 area I believe.

Is this area prone to flooding? will it float? did the wind carry it several miles over the years? just like everything else, lots of questions...... 8)
 

Offline smokin99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #56 on: March 03, 2014, 09:53:23 PM »
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Re: the placard.

With the storms and flooding that would have occurred within the two time periods, why is it assumed that the placard was found in 1979 in the same place that it landed in 1971? Under the right circumstances, a lot of ground could be covered in that time period.

I understand that sometimes you just have to take things at face value in order to get things done, and we have some back up to make assumptions for the placard spot with the known flight path - is that it? or is there another reason why the location of the placard is considered to be a given?


Good question, the whole placard thing bothers me from get go. how did it get out of the plane. did Cooper rip it off the wall while trying to operate the stairs, and once he was out on the stairs it came out? that's to early into the time of the jump 8:04-5 area I believe.

Is this area prone to flooding? will it float? did the wind carry it several miles over the years? just like everything else, lots of questions...... 8)

I don't know about the specific area, but the general area had some flooding in that time frame.
just going from personal experience -  things that might not ordinarily float can be  moved along by the force of the water. We have had items that probably would not float under ordinary circumstances appear on our creek bank after a flood.
Yes, just like everything else. one more thing  to wonder about.
 

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #57 on: March 03, 2014, 11:49:51 PM »
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Re: the placard.

With the storms and flooding that would have occurred within the two time periods, why is it assumed that the placard was found in 1979 in the same place that it landed in 1971? Under the right circumstances, a lot of ground could be covered in that time period.

I understand that sometimes you just have to take things at face value in order to get things done, and we have some back up to make assumptions for the placard spot with the known flight path - is that it? or is there another reason why the location of the placard is considered to be a given?


Good question, the whole placard thing bothers me from get go. how did it get out of the plane. did Cooper rip it off the wall while trying to operate the stairs, and once he was out on the stairs it came out? that's to early into the time of the jump 8:04-5 area I believe.

Is this area prone to flooding? will it float? did the wind carry it several miles over the years? just like everything else, lots of questions...... 8)

I don't know about the specific area, but the general area had some flooding in that time frame.
just going from personal experience -  things that might not ordinarily float can be  moved along by the force of the water. We have had items that probably would not float under ordinary circumstances appear on our creek bank after a flood.
Yes, just like everything else. one more thing  to wonder about.

The family that found the placard took Tom Kaye to the find location and he recorded the GPS coordinates.  I checked those coordinates on a topographical map for the area and it was approximately 1500 feet above sea level.  For comparison, Tina Bar is less than 20 feet above sea level and the Portland Airport's elevation is listed on aeronautical charts as 30 feet above sea level.

I don't remember anything from Tom Kaye describing the find location.  So based on no reporting, the site may not have been remarkable in any sense.  And, of course, no one can guarantee if the placard moved after its initial ground landing.

There is a picture of the placard on Sluggo's web page, I think, and it appears to me that it separated from the structure after flapping around in the wind for some time.  I doubt if Cooper would take the time to tear it off since there was no reason whatsoever for him to do so.

Robert99
 

georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #58 on: March 04, 2014, 12:00:36 AM »
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Re: the placard.

With the storms and flooding that would have occurred within the two time periods, why is it assumed that the placard was found in 1979 in the same place that it landed in 1971? Under the right circumstances, a lot of ground could be covered in that time period.

I understand that sometimes you just have to take things at face value in order to get things done, and we have some back up to make assumptions for the placard spot with the known flight path - is that it? or is there another reason why the location of the placard is considered to be a given?


Good question, the whole placard thing bothers me from get go. how did it get out of the plane. did Cooper rip it off the wall while trying to operate the stairs, and once he was out on the stairs it came out? that's to early into the time of the jump 8:04-5 area I believe.

Is this area prone to flooding? will it float? did the wind carry it several miles over the years? just like everything else, lots of questions...... 8)

I don't know about the specific area, but the general area had some flooding in that time frame.
just going from personal experience -  things that might not ordinarily float can be  moved along by the force of the water. We have had items that probably would not float under ordinary circumstances appear on our creek bank after a flood.
Yes, just like everything else. one more thing  to wonder about.

The family that found the placard took Tom Kaye to the find location and he recorded the GPS coordinates.  I checked those coordinates on a topographical map for the area and it was approximately 1500 feet above sea level.  For comparison, Tina Bar is less than 20 feet above sea level and the Portland Airport's elevation is listed on aeronautical charts as 30 feet above sea level.

I don't remember anything from Tom Kaye describing the find location.  So based on no reporting, the site may not have been remarkable in any sense.  And, of course, no one can guarantee if the placard moved after its initial ground landing.

There is a picture of the placard on Sluggo's web page, I think, and it appears to me that it separated from the structure after flapping around in the wind for some time.  I doubt if Cooper would take the time to tear it off since there was no reason whatsoever for him to do so.

Robert99

Can you post those coordinates?
 

Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #59 on: March 04, 2014, 12:28:50 AM »
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Re: the placard.

With the storms and flooding that would have occurred within the two time periods, why is it assumed that the placard was found in 1979 in the same place that it landed in 1971? Under the right circumstances, a lot of ground could be covered in that time period.

I understand that sometimes you just have to take things at face value in order to get things done, and we have some back up to make assumptions for the placard spot with the known flight path - is that it? or is there another reason why the location of the placard is considered to be a given?


Good question, the whole placard thing bothers me from get go. how did it get out of the plane. did Cooper rip it off the wall while trying to operate the stairs, and once he was out on the stairs it came out? that's to early into the time of the jump 8:04-5 area I believe.

Is this area prone to flooding? will it float? did the wind carry it several miles over the years? just like everything else, lots of questions...... 8)

I don't know about the specific area, but the general area had some flooding in that time frame.
just going from personal experience -  things that might not ordinarily float can be  moved along by the force of the water. We have had items that probably would not float under ordinary circumstances appear on our creek bank after a flood.
Yes, just like everything else. one more thing  to wonder about.

The family that found the placard took Tom Kaye to the find location and he recorded the GPS coordinates.  I checked those coordinates on a topographical map for the area and it was approximately 1500 feet above sea level.  For comparison, Tina Bar is less than 20 feet above sea level and the Portland Airport's elevation is listed on aeronautical charts as 30 feet above sea level.

I don't remember anything from Tom Kaye describing the find location.  So based on no reporting, the site may not have been remarkable in any sense.  And, of course, no one can guarantee if the placard moved after its initial ground landing.

There is a picture of the placard on Sluggo's web page, I think, and it appears to me that it separated from the structure after flapping around in the wind for some time.  I doubt if Cooper would take the time to tear it off since there was no reason whatsoever for him to do so.

Robert99

Can you post those coordinates?

46.243157 degrees North Latitude and 122.683612 degrees West Longitude.